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12:00 AM
No. I thought their website would be more up to date
 
Xeo
welp, time for bed, gotta get up in 8h
 
kindda old, but still good:
 
12:24 AM
Playing the Last of Us... dem feels
 
@Borgleader That game is a soap opera. So good.
 
I'm just at the beginning, but seriously it already won me over. Uncharted was good, this is better.
 
Uncharted is awesome!
I think I'm on the last boss of Uncharted 2. Haven't started 3 yet ;-(
 
Aw man, you should so play it. I liked 3 the most
 
I've been playing Borderlands 2 with my roommate lately. Too bad more games don't have splitscreen coop ;-(
oh...and Arkham City, too
finally got the surround sound working...gives me shivers.
in a good way
 
12:35 AM
Are inlines just like macros except for all the bad that comes from macros?
 
inlining just means you replace the call site with the actual function contents, pretty much
 
@Jefffrey I guess they are similar in that they solve similar problems.
 
also don't use macros :P
 
inline is taken care of by the compiler whereas macros are processed by the precompiler.
 
Ok, that cleared that up. But yes, I know I shouldn't use macros. Actually I don't even know/remember the syntax for them at all. IIRC you have to encapsulate the body within (..) or something.
 
12:38 AM
@sehe No guys will mess with that girl when she's old enough to date.
@Jefffrey That's usually recommended yes.
 
Wee, I have a server again.
Being serverless sucks.
 
How does one define liking math?
 
1:33 AM
@Pawnguy7 Being bad at it means you typically dislike it, but if you're good or decent at it then you either don't mind it or like it.
 
1:44 AM
@Rapptz Well, I do decently, but when I see those problems you know are going to take a while, I am not all that eager to do it :D
 
1:59 AM
Ah shit.. I hate it when C++ articles go into the front page of proggit. It devolves into a circlejerk about how much C++ sucks.
 
You mean, it becomes the lounge? :P
 
The C++ sucks circlejerk here is 100% rightfold and Cat
 
C++ is awesome
 
And sometimes not.
 
Note, there's a difference between saying that C++ has its flaws (it's true, everyone knows this but so does every language) and saying that C++ sucks 24/7.
4
 
2:02 AM
And then you realize again that C++ is awesome. It's just a series of ups and downs. The ups caused by talks like GoingNative and the downs caused by coding with [errors and segfaults].
 
Flaws not caused by user?
 
Yes.
 
C++ flaws are caused mainly by cplusplus.com
 
@MarkGarcia s/with errors and segfaults//
 
@Rapptz such as?
 
2:04 AM
But hey I got a server, I don't care.
 
There are a lot of things that genuinely suck about C++ and is a pretty big flaw like a major one is the lame compilation model.
 
@CatPlusPlus I made it optional. :)
 
That one I can definitely agree with.
 
@CatPlusPlus For Lounge<Chat>?
 
@Pawnguy7 In the end most of it becomes opinionated for example implicit conversions (some people like it, others don't).
 
2:06 AM
@MarkGarcia Maybe probably
I want to setup Redmine instance at least, because GH Issues suck.
 
Speaking of the compilation model, why did they go with it?
 
@Rapptz In those cases, it almost always depend on the problem you wish to solve. Having a single, this-is-it-there's-no-other-that's-better rule would suck more than no rule in using a single feature.
 
C++ started as a thin layer above C.
And then it stayed that way for some inexplicable reason.
 
You can write very correct code with C++.
You can probably ensure correctness more than any other language.
That's what I like of it.
 
2:22 AM
@Jefffrey Ahaha no.
 
You are not gonna bring Haskell out again, are you?
 
I can point to any language that doesn't do stupid UB shit.
And yes, Haskell is better at this, main reason being "much better type system".
 
@Jefffrey Yes.
Your statement's false anyway. But correct C++ code is pretty good.
 
Consider all the tools for correctness including (but not limited to) const-correctness, exception correctness (by declaring the list of exceptions a function can throw / nothrow), override, ...
 
Exception specifiers are useless and are deprecated.
 
2:26 AM
@CatPlusPlus It's not the language that does UB, it's the programmer. If you take shitty programmers as an example, every language sucks.
 
@Jefffrey What?
 
What's confusing?
 
Avoiding UB isn't very difficult to be honest
 
Is forgetting to check for signed integer overflow before doing addition a sign of shitty programmer, or shitty language that requires that?
 
wat
 
2:27 AM
What happens when you overflow in other places?
 
Signed overflow is UB, bub.
 
not IB ?
 
signed integer overflow is UB but most platforms have a predictable overflow
 
@A.H. No, straight UB.
 
All this time, I thought that was well defined. Good to know.
 
2:28 AM
BS
 
Not that you should ever make use of it.
 
Unsigned is well-defined.
 
It's easier to follow those being "close to the hardware" and "not paying for 'unnecessary' things" by just pointing out the UB cases.
 
It's not a matter of making use of it, it's a matter of not triggering it accidentally by completely inane expressions.
 
@CatPlusPlus why one but not the other?
 
2:29 AM
use long longs
overflow that
 
@Pawnguy7 Because C++.
There's more than one way to do signed integers.
 
@Pawnguy7 Because C.
 
@A.H. isn't that an extension?
 
@Pawnguy7 No.
 
@CatPlusPlus 2's complement is pretty common
 
2:29 AM
Have a bulletproof class solve the problem.
 
@A.H. Still UB according to the language.
 
> There are only two kinds of programming languages: the ones people always bitch about, and the ones nobody uses.
 
@CatPlusPlus since when has it been standardized?
 
Really, you have to account for all UB, if you want to claim correctness. Otherwise your invariants can be broken by something as silly as mechanical optimisation.
@Pawnguy7 C++11.
 
WHOA WHOA WHOA.
 
2:32 AM
Not to mention all the fun stuff that starts when you enter parallelism/concurrency.
C++ is extremely hard to get right.
 
We know that.
 
And concurrent programming is inherently hard.
 
@CatPlusPlus not according to Herb
 
it's 4:33 am, time to troll the heck out of stackoverflow with "stupid" answers.
 
He's going to bring up Haskell again.
 
2:33 AM
So don't claim it's better at correctness than languages that can assert all of this shit during typechecking.
Always.
 
Ah yeah, he did.
 
I wasn't discussing the fact that C++ is perfect. I just said it has tools that helps you with correctness that python, php, java or whatever language you want to pick probably doesn't have.
 
unnecessary overhead man
 
Java has exception specifiers.
It doesn't help correctness one bit.
(Also I already mentioned that they were broken beyond belief in C++ and are gone now)
 
@A.H. Not necessarily. Abstraction mechanisms could do most of the checking at compile time.
 
2:34 AM
@Jefffrey I am sorry did you just mention something as beautiful as Python in the same list with php ?!?
 
@CatPlusPlus not in C++11 on clang for sure
 
@MarkGarcia are you talking about adding constants?
 
I can't believe you guys are willing to argue with the most cynical person here.
Don't be dumb.
 
noexcept is the only thing that remains.
throw(...) is deprecated and useless.
 
@A.H. And classes and RAII.
 
2:35 AM
@Rapptz I considered stopping 10 seconds after I started. It's just addicting.
 
Moron.
 
@Rapptz obviously we are all bored including cat
 
no interesting questions to troll though
:-/
 
Yes, don't argue, because you have nothing to defend your shitty argument with.
 
@CatPlusPlus Knowing what kind of exceptions a function throws is useless?
 
2:36 AM
>baiting
 
Oh get fucked.
 
lol
 
@Jefffrey its deprecated and messes with the type system if I am not mistaken (function pointers)
 
@Jefffrey No, but it didn't work properly.
 
@Jefffrey IMHO it's better if you could just make the compiler figure it out.
 
2:37 AM
That's a whole another matter.
 
Also in Java it only harms correctness.
And Java actually has 100% working exception specifications.
 
@Jefffrey Exception specifiers are really bad.
 
@Rapptz Are you telling me they are bad because they are badly implemented? Or d'you have another reason?
 
I'm saying they're useless
 
^ that
 
2:38 AM
It's not a binding contract, it's pretty retarded.
 
Let the compiler deduce.
 
It's p much not possible to implement them in C++ properly.
 
@Jefffrey this is one of the reasons its terrible (excuse the async BS)
compiler should treat that as an error
 
That's a lot of unnecessary stuff lol
 
So you can do stuff like querying if a function throws an exception without the function to specify what it throws explicitly. And it will be done at compile time.
 
2:40 AM
Deducing is not possible either.
 
@Rapptz Writing down the exceptions the function can throw helps you out and helps out people that read your code. That "binding contract" is useful for the people who read, rather than the compiler. The compiler doesn't give a shit about how many exceptions a function is going to throw.
 
What would deducing do, if you aren't checking them? (checked exceptions, that is).
 
Write proper documentation.
 
@Jefffrey You can put it in the documentation, and it'll have exactly the same effect.
 
2:41 AM
> typedef void (*unexpected_handler)(); (deprecated)
 
No, it'll be better, because it won't randomly terminate your application, because some function 10 levels down the callstack threw something that wasn't in the spec.
 
@CatPlusPlus Following your logic you can also define that a variable is constant in the documentation, why would anyone use const then?
 
Correctness, hah.
@Jefffrey No.
 
Yes.
 
@CatPlusPlus Yeah. External libraries and stuff. But I really believe it should be the compiler's job (and of course, their lazy implementors).
 
2:41 AM
const is enforced by the compiler.
throw(...) isn't.
 
It should be.
 
It's not possible.
That's why they removed it.
 
why is it not possible?
 
Oh, I don't know about that.
 
@CatPlusPlus Deprecated, not removed.
 
2:43 AM
@MarkGarcia Yes, everything ever gets deprecated.
 
They'll never remove it.
 
Except for extern templates.
 
I second what A.H. said. Only thing that comes to mind is if it calls functions that haven't been evaluated yet. Or ever.
 
Yeah that was an interesting thing.
 
No, that was export or something.
 
2:43 AM
export yeah
 
I don't even remember.
 
No one implemented it anyway.
 
Comeau did.
 
Ah yeah. One compiler did.
 
And they were the ones behind the proposal to remove it. :laffo:
 
2:44 AM
Some problems export wishes to solve could be solved with modules, along with the shitty compile model.
 
It was an extreme miss wrt what's reasonably possible with C++'s shitty compilation model.
 
I don't care but allow me to move template code from headers
 
@Rapptz That one who claims themselves as ~"the best compiler makers in the world". I remember that.
 
Throw specifiers are somewhere in that bin, too. Mixed somewhat with weak type system.
 
@A.H. Or no separation of .h and .cpp files at all.
 
2:46 AM
@A.H. Forget they're called "headers".
 
@A.H. I'd rather have a header-only or well, module-only model.
 
@MarkGarcia but.. I don't want to clutter interfaces with implementation
 
:lol: wrong language for that.
Unless you like manually indirecting every class.
Modern language aw yeah
 
I like separation of declaration and definition
 
These are some really good arguments as to why exception specifiers are bad. Not the ones you have brought up.
 
2:48 AM
@A.H. That's actually extremely stupid artefact of C compatibility, not something useful.
> Write code that returns common errors and throws on exceptional occasions.
Ugh this shit again
Also :laffo: at considering this a better argument than "it literally does nothing more than documentation"
Good job, have a cookie
 
Thanks.
 
@A.H. I like it because I could just see the declarations close with each other without me seeing the definition. I'd like that to have that in a modern compilation system, though without having it to affect how the compilation system works. Just being able to make my code prettier.
 
> Template code is impossible to write with exception specifications
> Exception-specifications tend to prohibit extensibility
> When you write code which relies on another library, you don't really know what it might do when something goes horribly wrong
These are arguments.
 
@Jefffrey So use a non-shitty library instead?
 
@MarkGarcia yeah thats what I mean , I want to keep the prototype only stuff or whatever you call it
 
2:51 AM
I wonder if with modules if you could just distribute the module file (or well, whatever it is. The proposal makes it an object file)
 
That extensibility thing is bullshit, because introducing new exceptions is either client-breaking or they fall into already used categories.
 
16 mins ago, by Cat Plus Plus
throw(...) is deprecated and useless.
^ this is not.
 
It is useless and deprecated.
 
@Jefffrey terrible argument , libraries either well document what happens on errors or they shouldn't be used
 
2:52 AM
Guess why libraries don't use specifiers.
 
They're seriously awful and I never even knew people used it until you started arguing for it.
 
BECAUSE IT'S USELESS
Jesus.
 
@Rapptz #include :P
 
@MarkGarcia It's import stuff!
 
@Rapptz I did till I found out what they actually do (nothing)
 
2:53 AM
The only one I've seen used is throw().
Which is now replaced by noexcept.
 
Is separating interface from implementation bad?
 
And anyway, why are we even talking about this? I can just bring up the const-correctness C++ have to explain how cool it is.
 
And I can mention languages where immutability is default.
 
Predictable.
Honestly it's like a bad soap drama.
 
That is actually even better.
 
2:55 AM
@Pawnguy7 We need context.
 
@Insilico .h/.cpp
 
^
 
@Pawnguy7 No. But C++ declarations and compilation model are.
 
@CatPlusPlus like?
 
@Jefffrey Hint: The only language he talks about
 
2:56 AM
And .h doesn't necessarily mean your interface and the .cpp your implementation.
 
And they don't even achieve that, because of value semantics and sizes of objects being extremely dependent on private details.
 
Oh gawd.
 
One thing that comes to mind where separating interface and implementation isn't really feasible are templates.
 
Changing a class can easily break binary compatibility.
 
But that has nothing to do with the general "separation of interface and implementation" principle.
 
2:57 AM
Even if you don't directly modify the public interface.
 
As I originally understood it, it kind of made sense - I mean, I wouldn't want to go through a 1000 line file looking for the declaration. Though I guess I don't really need to with an IDE. In all other ways, it seems much more convenient in the same place, though.
 
@Rapptz Yes, the only language I ever talk about oh seriously get fucked ugh
 
@CatPlusPlus lol
 
All of these problems because compiler implementors are lazy, and just won't do something good just because they give them headaches.
 
@Insilico not if the compiler remembers shit
 
2:58 AM
You wonder why I don't bother doing more than just pointing and laughing when discussing with you gets extremely annoying extremely fast
 
For example. Imagine I change an argument type for a virtual function. If I remember to change the interface, but not implementation of it, I get a linker error.
 
@CatPlusPlus Me?
I don't wonder, no.
 
@A.H. Mind elaborating on that?
 
why can't they just go lookup the template code ?
 
Lookup where?
 
3:00 AM
@A.H. I don't understand that question.
 
have them generate tmp files
 
Try writing a C++ compiler.
 
@A.H. What are tmp files?
 
with name mangling to figure out scope
@CatPlusPlus I am not crazy
 
Then try to come up with ideas how to make this work.
 
3:01 AM
@Insilico temporary
 
@A.H. That's what they're trying to solve with modules by having to cache the ASTs (if any) of some header/template.
 
(Hint: if it was easy, it'd already be done with export)
(10 years ago)
 
@A.H. How does that even solve the problem of separating interfaces and implementations of templates?
 
Declarations are useless crap.
 
@Insilico it knows where the declaration is it just needs to see it once
 
3:02 AM
Purely side effect of compilation model being lifted directly from C, which was designed for single-pass compilation.
 
@CatPlusPlus on that note get rid of forward declarations
 
All declarations are forward declarations.
 
you know which ones I am talking about
 
@CatPlusPlus Oh come on baby, you know I love you.
 
where you have two classes that 'know' each other
 
3:03 AM
Well, definitions aren't forward declarations, and they're declarations, so that's not really correct
 
@A.H. We must not be on the same page. What I was talking about was that you basically can't put a template class with only the function signatures in a header file and implement template class methods in a cpp file.
 
@A.H. You can't do that, regardless of declarations.
Circular dependency between two value classes is a type of an infinite size.
 
@CatPlusPlus Friendship is based on fights and annoyance. And our friendship is too important to just fade away.
 
pointers and friends
 
Then we get back to just declarations so I don't know oh whatever
 
3:05 AM
class A is friend with B , class B has an A
 
@A.H. Or, you can combine A and B, since if you need that kind of relationship between A and B it's probably better if they were a single class.
 
Anyway, I'm not discussing any language design/correctness shit with any of you, until you all learn and understand Haskell. So there's that out of this pointless discussion.
Back to server fun.
 
That pointless discussion ended 5 minutes ago.
 
@Insilico class A has a function that returns B and vice versa with B
@CatPlusPlus make video lectures on haskell
 
@Jefffrey OH NO IM LATE TO SUMMARISE OH NO OH NO
 
3:07 AM
lol
 
@A.H. That seems like a design flaw to me. Can you provide a concrete example of something like that?
 
@Insilico if all variations of that are bad design then the friend keyword shouldn't exist , and the fact that it exists in C++ means C++ is a terrible language
 
Oh, the conversation is over.
Congratulations.
 
@A.H. I said "seems like a design flaw", not "it's definitely a design flaw".
 
3:09 AM
@Jefffrey Pure virtual destructors.
 
That's why I ask for a concrete example, because I'm genuinely interested in other cases I haven't considered.
 
@MarkGarcia Don't do those.
 
and I am talking about a general case, if two classes are friends with each other then they should both have access to each other , otherwise why are they friends?
 
It is p pointless.
 
@A.H. Friendship couples two classes even more strongly than inheritance. If you have two classes that have access to each other that way you better have a good reason for that.
 
3:11 AM
I wonder if the Cat can spend a day without saying "No.", "Don't" or "Sucks" or a combination of them.
 
@CatPlusPlus I haven't done those. In fact, I hate interfaces and class hierarchies and you-know-what-I'm-talking-about stuff.
 
yes but the point was how to get them to compile without class B; or class A; , not why friend exists
 
@Jefffrey lol
 
@Jefffrey don't think anyone can :P
 
@A.H. No.
:)
 
3:12 AM
hehe
 
See how happy he is?
 
@Jefffrey I just have to stop trying to give anyone advice
 
@CatPlusPlus No, seriously. Never stop. You are all grumpy and annoying and stuff like that, but you are actually pretty smart and useful. I may try to take you down, but in the end I agree with you for most of the things.
 
I love the comment of this edit.
 
Oh, by the way, your comment about me didn't make much sense.
@Jefffrey I don't think you spend much time here.
 
3:18 AM
I already spend too much time in here, instead of actually doing something useful for the society.
 
Right.
 
for (user_selection = 1; user_selection<=1; user_selection++) {
...
}

//ask for investment amount
for (user_selection = 2; user_selection<=2; user_selection++) {
...
}

//print out final balance for selection 3
for (user_selection = 3; user_selection<=3; user_selection++) {
...
}

//Quit for selection 4
else if (user_selection = 4) {
...
}
 
But yeah, I've a lot to learn. :P
 
I think they were going for a switch.
 
You don't spend much time here if you think everyone here is "grumpy and annoying"
 
3:19 AM
@Jefffrey You're a lounger if you're not being productive. :)
 
@Rapptz I never said everyone is grumpy and annoying. The way I see Cat is as a grumpy cat. That's all. And the annoyance is caused mostly by my lack of knowledge rather than the actual Cat's character itself.
@ScottW Oh hai. Long time no C.
 
Some grumpy maybe, but the annoying ones are generally people who come in just to ask a pointless question and demand we answer.
 
@chris that is classy.
 
@Jefffrey Those who are cynical half the time are upset that others don't share their same view point. It can go both ways.
There's no doubt that some people who are cynical are typically intellectual enough to hold their own weight but it'd be foolish to say that all those who are do it because they're all understanding.
 
I try not to let others upset me.
 
3:24 AM
Right. You shouldn't take things personally online, especially to the point where you become a cynic.
 
Then again, I generally try not to upset others, either. It creates situations I don't deal well with.
 
tl;dr; you're trying to be !Cat++ :P
 
Everybody wants to be Cat++.
 
Not really.
 
I wish operator precedence was hardwired into our brains so we didn't have to put extra parentheses everywhere and it wouldn't help if we did.
 
3:28 AM
Oh well. Enough love and sincerity for today. It's sleep time for me. See ya all tomorrow.
 
Bye.
 
Hmm, TIL std::type_index. Thank you, sehe.
I never even noticed the header...
 
Waste of a good name.
 
@Jefffrey Bye.
 
3:44 AM
Who the fuck would want to be me, even I don't want to be me
 
Jeffrey apparently :P
 
4:26 AM
0
Q: cannot delete std::vector & std::array?

ejangMy C++ class has a destructor that tries to delete std::vector and std::array instance variables. #include <iostream> #include <vector> #include <array> int main() { std::array<int, 3> foo; std::vector< std::array<float, 4> > vertices; foo[0] = 1; foo[1] = 2; foo[2] = 3; ...

 
5:12 AM
I don't understand what a Java bean actually is :(
 
you grind it up, you add hot water, and it makes coffee
 
how does that help with design though ?
just coffee for developers ?
 
well
all the Java beans in the world have about the same value as one cup of coffee for one developer
 
so what are you doing up so early ?
 
@A.H. It's just a class.
A Java equivalent of a POD.
 
5:26 AM
ah, why can't they just call it that ?
 
Just passive data, no inheritance hierarchy.
In computing software, POJO is an acronym for Plain Old Java Object. The name is used to emphasize that a given object is an ordinary Java Object, not a special object. The term was coined by Martin Fowler, Rebecca Parsons and Josh MacKenzie in September 2000: "We wondered why people were so against using regular objects in their systems and concluded that it was because simple objects lacked a fancy name. So we gave them one, and it's caught on very nicely." The term "POJO" is mainly used to denote a Java object which does not follow any of the major Java object models, conventions, or ...
Also fuck sleep.
 
Damn, this is real.
That's actually a thing.
 
tumbrl is leaking
 
 
2 hours later…
7:24 AM
@Rapptz that guy is a weirdo
 
7:55 AM
wow, this place is actually quiet.
 
Or so you think. :P
 
@Mysticial Hai bro! :D
Whats up?
 
Just some late night anime.
 
awesome, too much minecraft recently?
 
@GamesBrainiac hey, hows it going?
@Rapptz omg
 
Xeo
8:14 AM
@Mysticial Check out Redline if you got time
 
@A.H. arrite, i guess. I'm working a little network app as we speak
@Xeo Yo! :)
 
@CatPlusPlus but, of course with getters and setters, or it couldn't be proper Java bean!
 
8:30 AM
@GamesBrainiac oh , mind if I ask what you are working on ?
@sehe please don't say the J word I have been traumatized by reading a book with examples in that language that must not be named
 
@A.H. Well, its a leader selection algorithm, ideally among the devices connected to the wifi, it will select the best candidate to send data to
to store the data
 
as part of something bigger?
 
@A.H. Yea
I don't know exactly what yet, but they told me to make it, so I'm doing my best
 
8:55 AM
hi out there. is here a git expert? I'm want to "mount" one directory of repository at a special place in another repository. I read something about submodule and subtree and I don't get it right
 
Ell
You can "mount" an entire repository as a submodule
but not a specific directory
You could use a symbolic link I guess
 
but this would not work if someone else try to use my repo isn't it?
 
Ell
Not really no
 
so this won't work :( and that subtree is only for importing a snapshot or does it even track changes?
 
Ell
A submodule can be updated
just use a submodule
 
9:08 AM
okay but in case of java I would have multiple src directoried which I wanted to avoid
 

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