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3:00 PM
@DeadMG Now, I'm not saying the single player campaing isn't worth your time. I'm just saying the plot has never been that great, even with Brood War.
 
well, to be entirely honest, I was far too young to appreciate what was and wasn't good when I played the original StarCraft and Brood War- if I ever played those campaigns any amount compared to multiplayer
 
You are complaining about the one thing that makes c++ what it is
 
but I was expecting more from HotS.
 
jeez
 
Brood War was great for the med units and the lurkers
 
3:01 PM
@DavidKron What? Templates make C++. Inheritance is one of the least desirable, least useful features.
2
 
How can I simply edit a chunk of text from a PDF file?
 
@DeadMG Good, that means that if you ever play those again, nostalgia won't cloud your judgment.
 
Do I have to pay for that 200$ adobe thing
 
user1357851
@LightnessRacesinOrbit OMGz, did I tell you my awesome private haven: the troll bin? You should come & visit, kz <3 chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/29280/troll-bin
 
@EtiennedeMartel I did actually play a bit of BW a couple years ago at a LAN. It was horrendous.
frankly, I was never really that into Starcraft or BW
 
3:03 PM
@DeadMG The gist of the issue is that Blizzard never had good writers.
 
was more of a Total Annihilation/Diablo/Half-Life player at that time
 
Say i ditch the common base, would having things like SAL::clickable and SAL::drawable to derive from also be horrendous?
 
@DeadMG I spent hundreds of hours playing Diablo 2. That game was the shit.
But, same here: SC2 is what really got me into SC.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Agreed. It's no Torchlight or Torchlight 2, but hell, it was fifteen years ago, so I'll forgive it.
 
@DeadMG I still think D2 is better than TL1.
 
3:04 PM
I never played either Torchlight
:P
 
Uh.
I never played TL2.
 
Gosh i wish someone had told me this earlier than 5 days before my school project presentation..
 
apparently, TL2 is the shit, since they weren't hamstrung by a cripplingly low budget
 
I think I'm getting older.
I mean, the thing that bugged me the most in TL1 was not knowing where to put my skill points.
 
user1357851
@EtiennedeMartel why, were you expecting the otherwise?
 
3:06 PM
And then I remembered that that was also a problem I had with D2, but by then I knew every fucking build by heart, so it hardly mattered.
 
Torchlight was fun, but it got old quickly
 
Link's Awakening was awesome and never got old.
 
And damn i have to study math now..
 
What I'm saying is I think D3's approach with regard to skills is a good direction for hack-and-slashers.
 
Torchlight was grate
 
3:07 PM
I loved d2 because of the fact that you couldn't change your mind once you chose your skills, something d3 is sadly lacking
 
I don't want to have to read a fucking strategy guide to get the most of my game.
 
But got boring to fast
 
@Neil See? That's exactly what I disliked about D2.
 
If you want a nice slash rpg play fable 1
 
@EtiennedeMartel It's the difference between hardcore and casual gamers
 
3:08 PM
It punishes experimentation. It's atrocious design.
@Neil Oh, I see. Gaming elitism.
 
Casual gamers don't want to feel limited by their choices and hardcore gamers feel there is no point playing if they aren't
 
@Neil It's not fun to have a build and then suddenly realize that it's shite and have to go replay the last 70 levels (as were MANY of the builds in D2).
 
@Neil Your definitions are messed up.
The only difference between casual and hardcore gamers is how much prior experience with games they have.
 
I don't see it that way
 
With a hardcore game, you can assume your players already know some things, so you can start the difficulty curve at a higher position.
 
3:10 PM
It isn't that I liked d2 because being limited in that way I felt elite or something
 
In any case, a game should be "easy to learn, hard to master". And that's also why I think LoL is better than SC2 in that regard.
 
It's hard to put into words though
 
2 mins ago, by Etienne de Martel
@Neil Oh, I see. Gaming elitism.
@ScottW Compared to SC2?
The basic mechanics are easy to grasp.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Yes, that was my reply to that
 
The game is simple but deep.
SC2 is complex and deep.
 
3:12 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Excuse me for saying so, but isn't d2 like that?
 
@Neil Yes. But not as much as D3.
Now, don't get me wrong, there are plenty of problems with D3.
The whole Inferno difficulty, for instance.
That was shit.
 
"hard to master" means being able to play hell in act 5.. though killing zombies in act 1 wasn't hard even if you did mess up your skills
 
Complex rules make MTG the best fucking cards game ever.
 
posted on May 02, 2013

We can "optimize" our code by removing requests for operations that our data structures do not really need to support.

 
Anyway. I don't want games to be an exclusive club.
And with that said, I'm going to fetch some coffee.
 
3:13 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Bring me some :D
 
@EtiennedeMartel Neither do I.. but I still don't feel like playing d3
Maybe it's not because of the skills thing, I don't know
 
D3 is awful
 
d3 lost something that d2 had, and I can't quite put my finger on it
 
user142019
Wat is D3?
 
@rightfold d3js.org
 
user142019
3:15 PM
> D3.js is a JavaScript library for manipulating documents based on data.
 
user142019
@ScottW You don't play that.
 
@rightfold Diablo
 
@rightfold Diablo 3
 
user142019
Oh Diablo.
 
user142019
Never played that. It seems boring.
 
3:17 PM
@Neil fun
 
Hey guess what
 
I'm just sorry blizzard didn't decide to make diablo 3 a monthly subscription game, so I could have avoided buying it entirely
 
I ditched the base
It solved the problem
 
Xeo
lol
 
So you helped me even tough it was the last thing you wanted
 
3:19 PM
@DeadMG It was plenty good at first.
 
@EtiennedeMartel As long as you didn't need at-least-awful gear to survive, then it's OK.
 
@DeadMG D3 was unfinished. It needed a lot more tweaking and polishing.
Which is weird for a Blizzard game.
My guess is that something, or someone, forced them to release it.
 
bwahahaha
it needed a lot more than tweaking and polishing
 
@EtiennedeMartel Even weirder given the time it took
 
@ScottW That could have worked.
 
3:21 PM
@EtiennedeMartel What else could they have changed?
 
the followers needed entirely reworking, the entire economy needed to be revamped from scratch (start by cutting non-RMAH)
 
@DavidKron They started from scratch at one point.
 
and they needed to introduce the extra recipes and basically Runewords from the very start
 
@DeadMG Followers? Oh, wait, I only played with friends.
I forgot those existed.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Even if you played solo (which was stupid because of the co-op benefits) Followers were terrible
 
3:22 PM
@DeadMG Yeah, I was looking for runes and didn't see any..
 
@Neil Making the AH non mandatory for Inferno.
 
Then I remembered that they added those in the d2 extension :(
 
@EtiennedeMartel It was pretty mandatory for the other difficulties as well.
 
D2 wasn't that great before LoD, come to think of it.
@DeadMG Moar drops.
 
it has nothing to do with drop quantity.
 
3:23 PM
@EtiennedeMartel It wasn't that d2 wasn't that great before lod, but more like, you didn't know what you were missing
 
the problem is that 99.9% of all drops in D3 are worthless shit
 
boobytrap backwards is partyboob. Carry on.
 
most of them can't even be sold.
 
@DeadMG Wasn't that the same with D2?
 
@EtiennedeMartel Nah, not to the same extent by a long story.
 
3:23 PM
the uniques and sets suck in d3
 
Time to head home... this should be a nice feeling right?
 
That was disappointing to find out
 
@DeadMG Think of the drops you got outside of a Baal run.
 
user142019
I know a guy who once did a SQL query on a database to perform big integer operations because PHP couldn't.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I finished D2 on Hell without getting any items from external players.
but if you wanted to finish D3 on Nightmare you had to start buying from the AH.
 
3:25 PM
@DeadMG They did that on purpose, by the way.
 
the first fact is that the vast majority of stats on the vast majority of items were worthless
 
I don't find diablo to be entertaining
 
@EtiennedeMartel oh definitely
 
@rightfold Thats just sad.
 
so the probability of getting a decent roll was next to nothing.
and the second problem is that since the D3 items are so diverse, the model of an AH simply doesn't work, since you can't establish a reliable price for non-reliable stats
making it virtually impossible to know what the items you actually have are worth
not like in World of Warcraft where every piece of Titanium Ore or whatever is the same
 
3:26 PM
I see your point.
But I still think D3 is salvageable.
 
SO is unbelievable! I'd downvote my own post if I could. 5 upvotes in ten minutes for question that's basically "let me google that in the standard for you". My last question (stackoverflow.com/questions/15294518) was actually interesting and gets ignored :(. — Nicholas Wilson 2 hours ago
Guy complains about upvotes on his own question
 
it is, but they need to radically change it.
 
a 7% magic find small charm was the highest % you could get for a small charm
Hence its value was usually fairly static
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit First world problem.
 
they need to cut the non-RM AH, they need to introduce more Runewords and recipes (especially recipes requiring white items), they need to introduce more interesting stats.
like, I dunno, a shoulder piece that slows enemies in an area, or blah blah
 
3:27 PM
@DeadMG I wonder what they'll have in store for the expansion pack.
 
@DeadMG You can bet they'll be releasing an extension sometime this year that'll have runewords
 
I'll at least look at it.
 
I miss playing WoW
 
I think i'll refrain from buying the extension though
 
tbh
 
3:28 PM
@kbok Urgh.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I troll-upvoted him :P
 
@Neil I won't judge until I've seen it.
 
WoW's gameplay was not that great
but the economy was not broken.
 
@EtiennedeMartel You sir, are a better man than me
 
whereas D3's gameplay is questionable and the economy is flat out broken
 
3:29 PM
@Neil I'm an optimist.
 
@EtiennedeMartel To be more accurate, the guy responsible for D3's current debacle quit Blizzard (probably because D3 was a debacle) and any expansions for D3 will have a new lead designer.
 
@DeadMG That's encouraging.
 
that's the real reason I'll be checking out the inevitable expansion for D3.
 
Xeo
@DeadMG Raiding was fun. Especially dual-healing with a buddy and trash-talking while the Raidleader is raging around about that. We still healed everything easily, even whilst fooling around like madmen.
 
@DeadMG He quit some time ago and made torchlight
 
3:31 PM
@Xeo I raided for a while in Classic but never really got into it in any of the other xpacks.
 
they've had plenty of time to produce a decent diablo game, and then we get D3
 
@Neil That was the guy for D2.
 
Xeo
@DeadMG I was plenty active in Wrath of the Lich King
 
@DeadMG Link?
 
the entire D2 team quit (give or take) and made Hellgate: London who promptly went bust, so they rushed out Torchlight and it didn't suck.
 
Xeo
3:32 PM
A good bit in Cataclysm
But that's it.
 
I've played hellgate: london.. that was just sad
The idea had a lot of potential though
 
@Neil It was unfinished.
@DeadMG But you didn't play it.
How can you say it didn't suck?
 
first
I know that it retailed for next to nothing
and when you charge £7 for a game compared to £45, I'm a lot more flexible.
 
But you still didn't play it.
 
true
there is a possibility, in fact, that it sucks tremendously and I'm simply unaware of this
but I heard from somebody who actually knows what they're talking about that it did not
 
3:34 PM
So, I'm getting older. I find grindfests more and more annoying.
 
Nah it was okay. Would appeal more to fans of the genre though.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Is exactly what happened to me.
 
If it didn't suck, then it means it failed for other reasons.. but that would mean it failed despite being a decent game
Meaning there would be something very broken
 
@Neil Torchlight didn't fail. It was a massive commercial success.
the team made a huge sum of money
 
3:35 PM
@DeadMG No, I was referring to Hellgate: London
 
oh
 
^ That's what I was looking for.
 
everybody else was talking about Torchlight
 
You should all watch that.
 
@EtiennedeMartel What I find is that when I could spend my time playing God and having my computer bow down before me, it's difficult for me to justify spending my time playing the same content over and over again. Or Baldur's Gate 2.
 
3:38 PM
@DeadMG I find myself enjoying shorter games, purchased at a low price. That, or LoL and SC2, but that's mostly because I play with friends.
 
part of me wants to do an RPG someday, many of the best games I can name were RPGs.
 
user1125394
Hi, any of you use VS for your cpp code?
 
@c'c We all do. Now read this.
 
I like games like Portal
 
@DeadMG The problem with RPGs is that they require a huge amount of content to be interesting.
 
3:39 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Simple fact is for me, investing £45 in a game and then it's a flop (i.e. D3) is not viable, and secondly, most of the teams I want to buy games from that I know didn't suck are either bust or make indie-scope games now.
for example, the Total Annihilation guys are now making Planetary Annihilation
 
@DeadMG AAAs are dying.
 
absolutely they are
they cost far too much money
the winner of the PS4, Wii U (lol) and NextBox will be whoever supports indie games the best
 
I think the only way to make them viable is to release them piece by piece, usually with a freemium model, like Riot did.
 
hmm
I personally put F2P/freemium style games and AAA games in different buckets
 
@DeadMG That's an interesting view.
 
3:41 PM
well
it's frankly obvious that AAA is dying and freemium isn't, so not separating them is silly IYAM
 
For me, AAA is about the scope of the game: bigger teams, bigger budgets, a marketing budget that's bigger than the development budget...
Freemium is just how you sell your game.
 
hmm
for me AAA definitely requires a relatively bog-standard "Pay $60 USD up front" retail model
 
Most AAA games are boxed and sold for a fixed price, but that's not mandatory.
 
user1125394
thanks, I was trying to know if log4cpp can fit well in a project compiled under VS, a friend told me it didn't compile or something like that
 
F2P games rarely do it right imo
 
3:42 PM
it's a difficult balance to get right
 
Well there have been some pretty successful Kickstarters for games lately, what do you think about those
 
You're supposed to hardly see the part where you need to pay
 
@ShafikYaghmour It's a great thing.
 
user1125394
and he ended up doing some nasty logger redirecting cout..
 
I liked the result of Strike Suit Zero
 
3:43 PM
it is the embodiment of "Give the customer what he wants".
 
If you see it early, then you realize that payers are the elite players.. which means you give up
 
no bullshit about focus groups
 
You're supposed to feel like even if you didn't pay, you aren't far from elite
 
@DeadMG Major publishers are trying to patch the real issue by sprinkling microtransactions on boxed titles, but that's bullshit.
 
The money would flow if you made a game like that
Because maybe you'd pay anyway because that's the only thing left to perfect
 
3:44 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Frankly, they can try, but I doubt the consumers will be interested in it.
 
and I am hoping Wasteland 2 and Torment Tides of Numenera turn out good
 
@ShafikYaghmour They probably will.
 
Anyone ever play Krater?
Thinking of buying that
 
I've still got that idea for a space combat simulator kicking around
 
I wonder if I should try Godmode.
 
3:46 PM
but frankly, I don't want to become @Zoidberg, I need to get more done on Wide.
 
@DeadMG Keep in mind that these days, how you're going to sell it should be a core part of the game's design.
 
agree
 
Monetization is a gameplay feature now.
 
I'm not too interested in microtransactions or freemium, I'd probably hit for a kind of $10 price point
low enough that someone can take a risk
 
@DeadMG Still waiting for people to make a realistic one
 
3:47 PM
that wouldn't be any fun
 
@DeadMG If you offer a fixed amount of content, then you should sell it for a fixed price.
 
agree
 
Like one where you could approach an earth-sized planet and land on it, without having a load screen or something
 
@Neil Realism comes second to the fun.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Well I'm not buying a space-simulator without that
 
3:49 PM
I was thinking
 
Kyrostat anyone
 
@kbok ha.
 
it plays more like, I dunno, Thief, than CoD in space
the environment in space is obviously very dark
so the main gameplay is based on hiding in the dark
 
Actually, it would be fun for me just as a flight simulator
Like a flight simulator, except you can go into space and visit other planets
 
@DeadMG Stealth in space doesn't work that way.
It's about hiding your heat signature.
 
3:50 PM
@EtiennedeMartel 'Realism' is meaningless. 'Verisimilitude' or 'suspension of disbelief' are much more interesting notions.
 
eh
my spaceships are made of unobtanium, so there.
 
@LucDanton Well I say "realism" but obviously space flight is not realism
 
anyways
 
@DeadMG Pew pew.
 
I figure that if you use laser-based weapons, they do a lot of damage, but they also make a lot of light, you know?
 
3:51 PM
I just think the sense of grandeur would be worth it in of itself
 
and then if you use crappy bullets, they move slow and don't do much damage, but they don't make a lot of light
 
Though it'd be tricky to generate a planet terrain in live time in such a way that it looks seamless as you approach it
You'd have to do it in like 3 or 4 separate loading steps
 
@DeadMG Kinetic weapons are just better.
 
break your brain with this
 
3:53 PM
Forget the lazors, just shoot 'em with a mass driver.
 
A truly realistic space fighter game would suck
 
@Neil Disagree.
 
You wouldn't see your target.. you wouldn't hear noise until you were hit
And even then, you'd probably be dead within seconds of being hit
 
@EtiennedeMartel Doesn't do enough damage.
 
@LucDanton How so?
 
3:54 PM
if you start being shot by a kinetic weapon, you just fly away, it's not gonna be easy to keep hitting someone for long enough
 
@Neil Sub sims come to mind.
 
@LucDanton There exist submarine simulations?
 
@DeadMG Yeah, but you just need to make your ship reflective to become impervious to lasers.
 
Of course.
 
Have they actually sold any copies?
 
@EtiennedeMartel Yeah,but unobtainium isn't reflective.
 
@EtiennedeMartel He's got a badass fighter ship
 
@Neil Not to mention that tank and flight sims are kinda like that as well.
 
Ell
Meh, I don't find any space games interesting
 
3:59 PM
Binmaster reporting
 
Also, space is huge, so assuming your scanners aren't FTL, you'll always get an outdated image.
 
@LucDanton In fact I don't play those
Maybe some people do
 

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