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5:00 PM
@CatPlusPlus Suffering is magic.
 
@JerryCoffin really?
 
user3010322
I'll... just take this discussion as a yes, that works for now PhD, you have fun with that <_>
 
@ThePhD So you're guessing again
 
@ThePhD I couldn't explain why, but it looks wrong to me
 
5:00 PM
fyi I'm... not serious
 
@ThePhD Oh have fun with that, definitely
 
If ?!?!?! didn't give it away
 
I gotta go make a fi... cheese sandwich.
 
I've never heard of ficheese
 
@JerryCoffin Seems pretty reasonable actually in the case of for example temporary files.
 
user3010322
5:01 PM
@Xeo You lied to me. ;~;
 
user3010322
It didn't create the file!
 
Except you want temporary file creation to be atomic naming + opening :v
 
EVERYTHING IS A LIE
 
@CatPlusPlus It's like Parcheesi but tastier.
 
Windows should get a tmpfs
 
5:03 PM
@CatPlusPlus you pussy
 
@DeadMG Yes, it's actually useful (at times, anyway), and probably just about as intuitive as the Linux equivalent (open file, immediately unlink, doesn't actually get deleted until you close).
 
user3010322
I guess I'll just try CREATE_FILE then
 
Windows should get an OS
 
@CatPlusPlus pussy cat
 
@CatPlusPlus Not all temporary files need temporary file names- there are other kinds of temporary file, like lockfiles or those backup file thingies, which want specific names as opposed to random names.
 
user3010322
5:03 PM
And then figure out whatever the fuck Linux does when I actually build for it.
 
Backups are not temporary files
 
user3010322
Maybe if I use std::ofstream instead...
 
But whatever not important
 
@ThePhD inb4 It did make it, but not where I was looking.
 
user3010322
@MartinJames It is making it now, but I needed to use std::ofstream for it to want to make it.
 
user3010322
5:04 PM
fstream wasn't strong enough, apparnetly.
 
Maybe pass a flag
or something
 
user3010322
openmode has no create flag.
 
fstream just doesn't try to read your mind
 
user3010322
C file API solved this problem by having a w indicator on its string intake for fopen
 
@ThePhD out
Maybe with trunc
 
user3010322
5:06 PM
I could just do ofstream() and save myself some flags, though. :D
 
user3010322
Hopefully ofstream doesn't make other hard guarantees...
 
@CatPlusPlus Why dedicate an entire file system when you could just use FILE_ATTRIBUTE_TEMPORARY?
 
@JerryCoffin Programmatic solutions don't work, because people are dumb
Also that whole RAM thing
 
"The device does not respond to the identification packets because it is in a funny state" says one of our electronics guys.
 
If I were going to suggest a different file system for Windows to have, it should be a special file system dedicated to small files (but would still provide file-like access instead of the stupid registry crap).
 
5:11 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol
 
What was so terrible about the registry?
 
"Identify yourself!" "'m shorry offisher, 'm'n a funny state."
 
@Pawnguy7 The idea, the design, the interface, and the implementation. Other than that, I guess it's not all that bad.
2
 
@Pawnguy7 What is so terrible about the registry, you mean.
@JerryCoffin Everything is terrible.
 
Recovering installations with broken registry is REALLY FUN
 
5:13 PM
:|
I don't want to be reminded of the horror. shudder
 
I'll take /etc with free-for-all in terms of who stores what and in what format thanks
 
@TonyTheLion Not at all. Sex and alcohol are both good.
 
I was forced to star Jerry's registry thing. I tried hard to not do so, but it was inevitable.
 
@JerryCoffin The only good thing is the naming convention.
2
 
I think all the bad ideas in software engineering were probably combined to form the Windows Registry (tm)
 
5:15 PM
How else might you store details such as file associations?
 
In some place sensible
 
In a configuration file? Even XML that Microsoft loves so much?
 
Urgh
XML
 
Something you can actually edit?
 
user3010322
<___>
 
5:16 PM
Some sort of database with sanity.
 
Database and sanity in the same sentence
ERMAGHERD
 
Not having used it before, I am not sure in what areas it differs from a configuration file.
 
@Pawnguy7 One possibility would be in actual files, accessible via normal file system functions (this is where the specialized file system for tiny files becomes useful).
 
regedit.exe
 
@Pawnguy7 It requires special tools to access it.
 
5:17 PM
It's a couple of binary blobs in an undocumented format
 
@TonyTheLion Gawd...
 
user3010322
Wooo!
 
user3010322
I smashed the stack again!
 
@MartinJames Yep. I know that feeling.
 
user1804599
@Pawnguy7 /etc/fileassociations/<file extension here> as a text file that contains a path to the corresponding executable.
 
user1804599
5:18 PM
KISS.
 
user3010322
I'm on a roll!
 
And then COM CLSID's
they're EVERYWHERE in the registry
and god if you have to find one
 
user3010322
Moral of the story: never touch the registry.
 
Aaarrgghhhh!! CLSID's..
 
user3010322
Store everything in %APPDATA% like you're a sane person.
 
5:19 PM
@ThePhD Moral of the story: don't do pointer shenanigans.
 
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes I can't halp it. :c
 
@ThePhD My sanity is not guaranteed.
 
Xeo
@ThePhD Meh, not xcopyable.
 
Those CLSID enumeration fuckers are just so annoying it's untrue.
 
user3010322
@Xeo It's not?
 
5:20 PM
@Pawnguy7 At the time (Windows 95) they used FAT with huge clusters, so tiny files were ridiculously expensive. They could (quite easily) have built a virtual FAT inside of a file, so it would reduce the cost, and still work like a normal file system. Instead, they invented an entire new file format, entire new API, entirely new conventions, etc., just to be able to store smaller pieces of information.
 
@MartinJames Don't even mention it. Grhhfhfhfhfhff
 
man
sometimes having tests is really depressing.
you make a change and then suddenly you have this giant list of how you broke everything.
 
I never have that problem
and yes, I have tests
 
@TonyTheLion Half an hour of searching to find.. 'Oh, it's 0x04'.
 
user1804599
@DeadMG Less depressing than spending hours trying to find bugs that might or might not be there later. vOv
 
5:22 PM
true dat
 
user1804599
I had to solve a unit bug today again. :D
 
@MartinJames sigh
 
user3010322
Hm.
 
user3010322
Not sure how I'm smashing the stack.
 
user3010322
But I am!
 
user1804599
5:23 PM
Through UB, as we all expect of your code.
 
Omg, now my class believe function redefinition's are legal java because of the retardated error suppression in eclipse.
 
ThePhD, SMASH!
 
OK, I promise to never mention CLSID's ever again, (unless I get real pissed off with them, again).
 
I'm assigning your promise a CLSID of AA65-F738-1001-D331
 
5:25 PM
I'll never remember that - best I store it in the registry. Regedit..
 
Heeeeeeeelllloooooo.
 
Xeo
Stanley Parable still 40% off for another 30mins
Get it if you can.
 
Meh, too expensive
 
How much?
 
7€
I'll wait 3 months and watch someone else play it for me
 
5:28 PM
Windows only :(
 
Stanley parable was boring and totally overrated
 
I bought Evoland for some reason and it sucks
It is also ~~gaming commentary~~ or ~~art games~~ or whatever
And that cost like 4€
 
So, I read a little about Haskell yesterday. Intriguing.
 
Xeo
Don't let Bartek hear you
 
2.49€
The worst purchase
 
5:31 PM
This article on polygon about games marketing is excellent, and -shocking- the comments are good too
 
Lies
Comments are never good
 
user1804599
// this is bad
 
Shhhhh.
 
Xeo
The more interesting case is if you remove all references (pass m by value, return by value). Then C++03 allows copy elision (though no compiler does it), but C++11 doesn't. It does use the move constructor though. — Marc Glisse 43 mins ago
what
 
@DeadMG hehe. It can be reassuring too.
 
5:35 PM
They removed copy elision for C++11 because nobody needs it anymore since we have move constructors
 
move ctors are slow
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah. I seem to find that one individual bug can often cause several tests to fail.
 
user1804599
Move elision!
 
I fixed one bug and 6 tests passed instead of failed.
 
comparing to elision
 
user3010322
5:36 PM
I need to go lower than filebuf.
 
user3010322
Is there a level below filebuf which will present me raw bytes, unaffected by the binary flag (or lack thereof)?
 
not Standard.
 
Your OS' API I guess
 
@DeadMG It might be a sign of too strong coupling, or of tests that are not fine-grained enough. Sometimes you can't write more fine-grained tests easily though, and sometimes features build upon others and it's unavoidable that breaking the base feature will break the others.
 
user1804599
@ThePhD I was writing something like that! Ask @sehe; he somehow has copies of my unfinished projects.
 
5:37 PM
@kbok Did they?
Hmm didn't know that...
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, it's hard to build a test that does not involve overload resolution, since practically every feature in Wide involves calling an overload set :P
 
@ThePhD WTF are you doing?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit They also removed pointers, too. You should use std::optional<T&> now
 
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes Stream :D
 
read and friends are the raw bytes API.
 
user3010322
5:40 PM
But even fopen takes characters that can affect how the reading is done (e.g. the "w+" flag with no b means "read it like text")
 
@kbok Yeah, and functions - everything now has to be in main();
 
user1804599
@ThePhD ::open.
 
@ThePhD Then pass b?
 
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes I want to get at the interface before the processing stuff is layered on, whether it's b or anything else.
 
@MartinJames Everything is a lambda now
 
5:41 PM
@kbok Yay! Dance the lambada..
 
@kbok s/lambda/lambada/
 
Xeo
@ThePhD Define "processing stuff"
 
user1804599
Wrap ::open/::read/::write/::close (and Windows equivalents) and be done. vOv
 
user3010322
@rightfold Hokay.
 
welp
for example, I accidentally defined integers so that an int64 was not an int64.
 
user3010322
5:43 PM
@Xeo FILE* when used with fread and friends has a runtime switch on it: the most notable is binary versus text mode, in which case the behavior changes and additional processing (or lack thereof) is done on the bytes before they're handed to you.
 
as you can imagine, that caused, er, slight problems.
 
user3010322
My desire is to get at the level of API before that stuff is even considered: e.g. just chunking bytes out of the OS/File system.
 
@ThePhD See open(2)
 
hello
 
@ThePhD There's no interface. If you don't want processing, don't ask for it.
 
5:45 PM
@ThePhD It doesn't mean "read it like text"
It means "convert the newlines, maybe"
 
aren't there also differences as to how the input is interpreted when you ask for something like an int?
 
oh well
 
@DeadMG No. op>> is always formatted input, read is always unformatted input.
 
good thing I never liked iostreams then :P
 
5:47 PM
@CatPlusPlus Exactly what it means it implementation defined. It can mean things like "a control-Z in the file will be interpreted as the end of the file."
 
user3010322
@CatPlusPlus It also fucks up simple API cals, like pubseekoff( -1, std::ios_base::cur ); // Mysteriously advances the character 32406, from 'character' position 7, instead of going back 1. Yes, really. Yes, the first argument is supposed to be signed.
 
@ThePhD There's no such thing as a simple IOStreams API call.
 
@ThePhD Then don't use it.
 
"Text" mode is utterly useless idea
 
Doctor, my head hurts when I bang the wall.
 
5:48 PM
Especially undefined
 
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's what I'm trying to do, which si why I'm asking.
 
If libc does it, it's probably shit!
 
@ThePhD Everyone told you already: don't ask for it.
 
@CatPlusPlus One reason to like Windows - no stupid text-mode.
 
@CatPlusPlus Were it not for decades worth of code using it quite nicely, I might agree.
 
5:49 PM
Bleh
Python has universal newlines, which is far more explicit about what it does
 
@CatPlusPlus "Something else might be better" != "utterly useless".
 
It's like a sewage-outfall from generations of shell 'developers' who are mentally-incapable of comprehending anything except text-scripts.
 
Fuck libc
 
Hey guys
 
Errr... hello?
 
user1804599
5:52 PM
Hello @Syler. :3
 
i have big game programming interview coming up
 
@ThePhD Basically you can't eat your cake and have it.
You can't ask for the iostreams to do special treatment and then not have the special treatment.
 
@Syler Good luck:)
 
grrr
 
lol i need to pickup some fundamental math questions
and C++
 
5:53 PM
I hate it when the VS debugger randomly only shows the vtable of polymorphic entries.
 
also was thinking of building a quick game to show case
 
instead of the full entry.
 
@DeadMG Gosh, don't remind me.
 
@Syler OK, then you'll get JS and SQL.
 
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes q_q
 
user3010322
5:54 PM
To the lowest levels of File IO I go.
 
@Martin, JS and SQL?
 
user3010322
@rightfold Where's that low-level repo?
 
user1804599
@Syler lol
 
@ThePhD I don't see what the problem is.
 
@ThePhD What for
 
5:54 PM
Why does your Stream care for that?
You don't need any of that vOv
 
user1804599
@ThePhD I deleted it. You think I finish my projects?
 
user1804599
It’s probably still in a Gist; lemme check.
 
user3010322
That doesn't mean you delete them!
 
Just open everything in binary mode, viola.
 
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes I just want to know -- for sure -- that the basis of my Stream API is going to be as close to the system as possible, without any kind of filtering.
 
5:55 PM
@Syler Sure - that's what usually happens at interviews. You want maths and C++ questions, you get crap:)
 
@ThePhD That's what binary mode is...
 
user1804599
@ThePhD All I can find is this. And that was early crappy buggy prototype.
 
"I want X" "Y does X, use it" "But Z messes things up!" "Don't use Z" Why are we going in circles.
 
hmm
 
Use Boost.IO
 
user3010322
5:56 PM
I don't know how the binary mode is implemented. Judging from all the virtual function calls, it looks like it might be switching to an implementation at runtime. I'm not sure. I'm going to make something that I know for sure doesn't have virtuals of filtering and then test it against regular C IO calls, to see how it compares.
 
U&& is-a T if U is movable, and U is-a T?
 
@ThePhD It's not. It gets bytes from the file.
 
@Martin they wont ask any js or sql questions
 
@ThePhD If it does your compiler is buggy.
 
Binary mode is opposite of doing anything
 
5:57 PM
@Syler Prolly not:) It'll be something else you hate.
 
@ThePhD How do you know the "regular C IO calls" don't do filtering?
Really, stop being silly.
 
@Martin lol your a troll
 
Better skip the filesystem driver, too, because it does filtering!
 
user3010322
<_>
 
@ThePhD Those vfcalls are for things like alternative buffers and locales, they're not really anything to do with it... and the C I/O stuff is really the same damn thing.
 
5:57 PM
@Syler Sorta.. :)
 
user1804599
@Syler you can’t just “pick up C++” in a day.
 
user3010322
@DeadMG Then I'll write against the core platform API and see how it compares to std::filebuf & FILE* . Shrug.
 
@rightfold im not a newbie in C++
 
well, you're doing it completely wrong.
 
user3010322
All I really want to know is if there's a layer beneath the presented standard that's faster at getting bytes.
 
5:58 PM
you need to check the specification, not just randomly try a few files and compare the output.
 
user1804599
@Syler Prove it. :P
 
you may as well be like, "I'm going to write a test and prove that my code doesn't have UB!".
@ThePhD Whoah, whoah. Speed and filtering are two completely different things.
 
Boost.IO has mmap driver
You don't get any faster than that
 
@CatPlusPlus Or slower. Who knows.
 
So stop reinventing wrong shit for wrong reasons
 
5:59 PM
@ThePhD Without being OS-specific?
 
@rightfold I have 2 weeks to prep for it
 
(See MongoDB)
 

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