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3:00 PM
@FredOverflow Maybe, but not necessarily. Some allocate extra space and keep metadata there. Others allocate metadata externally, and use (for example) the block's address as an index to it.
 
That's what you need to think in terms of, not what other things do.
@FredOverflow Well, for one thing, there isn't any buffer sized 101 or more in your program. So it can happily assume indexing anything with [100] is never going to happen.
Madness ensues.
 
ikeaordeath.com <-- a few minutes, ammusing enough
@R.MartinhoFernandes it was able to build the one small project I used it on. It never get close to being something I would call 'usable'. I avoid @CatPlusPlus's problem of scope creep by not trying to make a general purpose buildsystem, just a script to build MY project.
 
:Gbrowse is fucking awesome.
 
You already have a scope creep in that you're making a build engine
Instead of using an existing one
 
It was mostly an academic exercise. I wanted to understand more about how C++ is built. To that end, I'd say it worked very well. I learnt a lot from doing it, and yes, a good bit of what I learnt was that it is a non-trivial task
ergh -_- I hate that "I'm going to sneeze" feeling that never results in a sneeze, but hangs around nonetheless
 
3:10 PM
Sneeze anyway.
Don't be a slave of false sneezes
Free yourself.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh, did we not explain to you? Humans do not have full control over all bodily functions like that. We cannot just sneeze on demand
 
I presume that some people can
 
sniff some pepper
 
@DeadMG probably, that is why we coined the term 'freak'
 
you'll sneeze
 
3:12 PM
no
we coined the term "freak" because people can't accept that other people are different to them.
 
no, sneeze urge subsided... but it'll be back, and in stronger numbers
 
Sneezing powder refers to a group of powders or powder-like substances that induce sneezing when someone is exposed to them. This is usually done as a practical joke or prank to an unsuspecting victim. Sneezing powders containing Veratrum album alkaloids have been linked to poisoning, including dyspepsia, fainting, bradycardia and hypotension. Children are especially vulnerable. See also *Itching powder * List of practical joke topics References
 
@DeadMG don't (try to) get all smart on me
 
too late.
hmmm
it suddenly occurs to me that since I intend to offer very little in the way of default-constructibility in Wide, I might need a new design for operator[].
 
@thecoshman Anyway, that faking sneezing can trigger the real thing was my point.
@DeadMG What's the relation?
 
3:15 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes pretend to sneeze and you will need to actually sneeze? get out
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes You're not gonna get very far with an unordered_map<int, int>, doing cont[key] = value; when key does not exist and cannot be default-constructed because screw default construction.
 
perhaps I could arrange for cont[key] to be some kind of proxy object.
 
@CatPlusPlus TH is so cool.
To be honest, I think I prefer a throwing/asserting/whatever cont[bad_key].
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes so meta :P
 
3:19 PM
you prefer that cont[new_key] = value; throws?
 
cont[bad_key] doing an insertion is insidious.
 
@thecoshman That was pretty funny. I quite obviously know nothing about either subject -- I got a score so low (6 out of 20) that it pushes the lower bounds of what you'd expect from purely random choices.
 
Make []= an operation of its own.
 
@thecoshman Woah, why are you stalking me.
 
3:20 PM
can't wrap my head around whether this is decent or not, probably the latter because of the hangover
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes o_0
 
I just pushed that.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I just checked github... makes sense then I guess
 
Xeo
@DeadMG I guess people are not gonna be able to write a generic read(Type T, stream){ T v; stream >> v; return v; } anymore? :P
 
screw that shit anyway.
 
3:21 PM
@Xeo That's ugly anyway.
 
Bah.
None of the ISO 2022 encoding I have tried on Windows 7 seem to work.
 
you're nine years too early.
 
Are there any other stateful encodings?
 
@refp I was wondering for a brief moment whether that was you. But suddenly
> niggah niggah niggah niggah niggah niggah niggah niggah niggah niggah niggah niggah niggah niggah niggah niggah niggah niggah niggah niggah niggah niggah niggah niggah niggah niggah niggah niggah.
 
Xeo
3:22 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Better suggestion on constructing objects from stream-like things?
 
What do you need stateful encoding for
 
Wokay. That's you already ^
 
@wilx Why don't they work?
 
@CatPlusPlus Testing my streambuf.
 
Why are you writing a streambuf
 
3:23 PM
@sehe you know me far too well
 
(Use base64)
 
@Xeo I'm not done deciding what I want to do with streams. But what I certainly don't want to do is "OH FUCK, LET'S JUST HOPE DEFAULT-CONSTRUCTED IS FINE".
if you try to read from a stream in Wide and it fails, it throws.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Creating the std::locale object seems to work but then the conversion in std::codecvt::do_out() fails. It seems that some internal variable Isclocale is true. Odd.
 
at least, it will probably do that.
when I implement exceptions.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I would have to write the facet myself. I wanted to avoid that.
 
3:25 PM
Oh, I get it now.
 
Xeo
@DeadMG I thought about not requiring default-constructability before, but at some point, I got stuck. You can change it so it does return T(stream);, but the lowest level (int etc) will need the other way, I think.
 
@CatPlusPlus Because I need a file stream on Windows that opens its file with SHARED_DELETE flag so that I can rename the file while there are still other handles open to it.
 
@Xeo Traits. Solved.
 
Xeo
Read? :P
 
@wilx Use Boost.IO.
 
3:26 PM
well, I actually don't have a particular problem with stream.Read<T>();, say.
default implementation for int and whatnot, then fall back to ADL for UDTs.
 
But I don't like that anyway.
 
@CatPlusPlus I do not want to use that. One of the "selling" points of log4cplus is that does not have huge dependencies.
 
@Xeo Protocols.
@wilx Have fun extending the shitpile that's iostreams I guess
 
@CatPlusPlus I am having fun :) I just want to test my creation.
 
so apparently the class I'm taking now, Analysis of Algorithms, is basically the same class I took at another school... Data Structures and Algorithms for Game Design
 
3:28 PM
I have learned a lot about streambufs implementation and internals last few days.
 
Xeo
I don't even want to learn about them
 
you know
 
@Xeo FWIW, I don't think that Haskell's Read is good for general purpose input because it assumes a specific format.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yea
 
it's kinda interesting how many emergent properties there are in Wide.
 
3:29 PM
I will never understand the dependency shit
Maybe that's because C++ ecosystem is so horribly broken
idgi
 
I think I'm close to dropping boost as a dependency from ogonek. I keep replacing the functionality it provides for various reasons :S
 
;)
 
So far only Boost.Exception survived, but I have it as an optional #define-controlled feature.
Boost.Exception I won't replace though.
 
my throat really fuckin' hurts for some reason.
 
Artists are weird.
 
3:32 PM
you're weird.
 
Also.
My point still stands.
 
Though that reminds me of a bug.
 
@CatPlusPlus hmmm
 
I should BOOST_THROW_EXCEPTION instead of throw.
 
I read that as "I should CAPS CAPS CAPS".
 
3:35 PM
@BartekBanachewicz I've updated it with even more fun version.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Why? What does it do?
 
It takes an exception and records function name, __FILE__ and __LINE__ in it before throwing.
 
@CatPlusPlus thanks. I'll look at it later.
 
@Xeo Nobody wants to. They're a little like Samuel Clemens' line about classic books: "Something everybody wants to have read, and nobody wants to read."
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes you don't need it if you use a debugger.
 
3:37 PM
Debuggers are for pussies.
 
meh
 
You ear that, @CatPlusPlus? Debuggers were made for you.
 
I don't want to restart my program and reproduce the same conditions to look what that exception was.
 
Debuggers are not viable most of the time.
 
3:38 PM
But you are a pussy.
I can't believe I have to explain that fucking joke.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Eh, debuggers give way more information than that. It's not really comparable.
 
@EtiennedeMartel it's a stupid joke. I thought of saying it, but I decided that another moron should say it.
 
@DeadMG It's not a matter of comparison. It's a matter of saving effort. (And in some cases, of actually making it possible to pinpoint the problem at all).
Debugger is the last stop.
 
Well, GDB, yes.
 
gdb sucks.
 
3:40 PM
I use Visual Studio's debugger regularly during testing runs.
 
It's not about testing runs.
 
Oh gawd, wtf am I talking to high school programmers?
 
@wilx your tests are bad
 
lol
Why is it bat to make things easy for yourself?
Masochists.
 
@wilx This is about making things easy.
 
3:41 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah- telling the debugger to break on exception is way easier than littering my code with debugging statements that don't give as much information as debugging.
 
No one said "don't use the debugger".
 
Production deployments are unknown to the Lounge
 
@Abyx You're just jealous.
 
You can't debug a program that ran two days ago.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I can. with postmortem debugging
 
3:42 PM
true
 
If I can add more useful info to my exceptions, I will. That's all.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes MiniDumpWriteDump is your friend.
 
well, I'm hardly one for not adding information to exceptions.
I just don't do it to dodge employing a debugger.
 
At work I can't open a dump file in Visual Studio because it causes Kraspersky to piss itself and blue screen the shit out of my PC.
 
it's only for when having that exception thrown does not necessarily indicate a bug.
 
3:43 PM
Like, the way I work, if I make some code and running under debugger is reasonably easy (i.e., does not involve remote debugging and complicated server setup or such) I just F10 through the parts I have changed/added.
 
@DeadMG I do it to dodge reproducing conditions and shit.
Or at least, to have a chance of that.
 
I don't reproduce conditions either
4
I just tell the debugger to break on exception.
 
...
Sigh.
I really have no idea what else to say.
 
Just dump your heap.
 
3:45 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes say the truth
 
Is it ok to use std::size_t as indexing type to access private std container's elements from outside a class?
 
and frankly, it's pretty hard to actually understand WTF the problem is from just the location of the exception throwing statement
 
Many times backtrace is all you need.
 
often, the main thing I need is the state of local variables on various parts of the callstack.
 
Boost.Exception also allows you to add more info if you want (actually the library is all about that). BOOST_THROW_EXCEPTION enables that and adds those three things for free.
 
3:46 PM
Also including diagnostic info on exception is exactly for postmortem debugging so I have no idea what the fuck are you on people.
It's like the idea that your program might be running outside of your tightly controlled debugger-powered environment is completely foreign
 
@CatPlusPlus meh, I just use MiniDumpWriteDump and get all information I need
 
I can't do that in my library.
 
yep. because it's not its responsibility.
 
Logging the trace is better than creating countless dumps.
 
however your test runner can do that
 
3:51 PM
My test runner is not my target...
 
@CatPlusPlus trace is useless when you need values of function arguments
 
Not really, no.
 
@Abyx Depends on whether you trace them...
@R.MartinhoFernandes seems that chrono still requires Avanced Hoop Jumping (at least when combining with other interesting libraries, like Boost Date Time):
Maybe with a little help from C? Live example (those interfaces.... I had no idea..) — DyP 1 hour ago
 
Xeo
@EtiennedeMartel Ew, Kaspersky
 
@sehe Chrono is not meant for tracking dates vOv
@Xeo Crapersky.
Also, not using a steady_clock for thread-related things sounds like a terrible idea.
I avoid system_clock as much as I can (and in fact, I actually s/system_clock/steady_clock/ our codebase a few days after I started working here).
 
4:01 PM
Speaking of logging, I can't get NHibernate to use NLog.
Ugh.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes What's wrong with system_clock ?
 
@Borgleader It doesn't behave predictably.
It is affected by things like DST and so on.
Leap seconds!
01:59:57, 01:59:58, 01:59:59, 01:00:00, 01:00:01, 01:00:02 is most of the time something you really really really don't want to deal with.
 
Woot almost home time
 
It can also be changed by the user (say, when you adjust the time).
Terrible if you're using it for counting time.
 
LoggerProvider.SetLoggersFactory(new NHLoggerFactory());
2
NHibernate docs are shit
 
user1804599
4:12 PM
lol
 
Or adjusted by NTP; or a thousand other things.
 
user1804599
Set… method.
 
Unless you want to display current time somewhere, I don't see why you would want to use it instead of steady_clock.
 
@not-rightfold Properties 2 hard
 
Hello everyone.
 
4:15 PM
@CatPlusPlus Where is ServiceLocator?
 
@EvgenyPanasyuk Nowhere, SL is shit.
 
@CatPlusPlus s/docs are/is/
 
@CatPlusPlus You need ServiceLocatorManagerLoggerProviderFactory.
 
@JerryCoffin Eh, it's not that bad.
@EvgenyPanasyuk You need to update your jokes.
 
4:17 PM
@CatPlusPlus I managed to say something far enough over the top to get Cat to say something borderline positive! I win!
17
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes IKR. But Boost Datetime is intended for datetime calculations, and it would be nice to have less impedance mismatch going to standard library types if needed
 
Jerry is the best.
// Shame on me
Found this comment. Twice.
git blaming the hell out of it.
 
hai folks
 
Twist: it was you all along.
 
back at home
 
4:23 PM
@CatPlusPlus I haven't worked here long enough to forget what code I wrote.
 
That's why it's a twist.
Duh.
 
@JerryCoffin You are awesome Jerry! :)
 
Hmm, it seems I broke ogonek<->ICU interop at some point.
Also, it seems I can't push.
 
minor issue
 
Ah, overcame it.
Let's see if disabling ICU support fixes the build whistles
Seems to work. Now I need to do some things I have been thinking about for long to improve build times.
 
user1804599
Wee weekend.
 
so... openSSL... thoughts on the library
 
0
A: booleans inside #ifdef statements?

CheerayI think maybe OP want to ask about the statment "#if COND_A && COND_B", not "#ifdef COND_A && COND_B"... They are also different. "#if COND_A && COND_B" can judge logic express, just like this: #if 5+1==6 && 1+1==2 .... #endif even, a variable in your code also can be used in this macro sta...

 
@thecoshman Not particularly fun to use directly, but there's really no other OSS library that tries to compete, so the usual question is: "What other library (that depends on OpenSLL) are you going to use?"
 
user1804599
@LightnessRacesinOrbit lol
 
5:05 PM
@JerryCoffin how does it stack up against crypto++?
 
IntStack *stack = new IntStack();
if(stack)
{
    stack->Push(10);
    stack->Push(3);
    while(!stack->IsEmpty())
    {
        stack->Pop();
    }
    delete stack;
}
Sample from a book called API Design for C++.
Spoilers: it sucks.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes wtf
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes They forgot the "How not to" on the front.
 
@thecoshman I've never tried to compare them myself. stackoverflow.com/q/4613739/179910
 
@DeadMG Well, it's not really the API that is bad here.
But it shows that the user does not know C++.
 
5:08 PM
well, let's face it, it's all fuckin' bad.
 
FWIW, no templates because this is an example to motivate template-based APIs.
 
I gotta say, the template or not of that code is not really what I was looking at :P
 
Then what is wrong about that stack?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Even ignoring that, the complete lack of exception safety...
 
well, first, I'm seeing non-Standard container interface.
 
5:09 PM
@JerryCoffin Yeah, but that's not in the API. Only in the usage.
 
@JerryCoffin cool, thanks for link
 
well, actually, the sample is so short, it's difficult to say anything other than "non-Standard container interface", and, "The code using the interface is incredibly bad".
 
> delete stack
'nough said
 
Visual Studio is really good at background operations
 
5:11 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes s/user/author/?
I wouldn't say that's the worst C++ code I've ever seen.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes We haven't seen enough to be sure whether it's in the API. If the pop can also return the element at the top of the stack, then there's a problem with the API too.
 
1 min ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
@JerryCoffin Yeah, but that's not in the API. Only in the usage.
 
Especially with all the nigh-unreadable TMP bullshite manifesting all over nowadays; now that's bad code
 
@JerryCoffin Yes, but I can add a bunch of other ifs.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Neither would I. But the author clearly doesn't know about RAII, which means the book goes back in the shelf.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Sure
Or perhaps you should keep it off the shelf, and pull its friends with it.
 
5:14 PM
@JerryCoffin I'm starting to think that it's a defect in the C++ Standard that that cannot be done exception-safely.
 
Seems the author is a game developer.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh god damnit... T_T why did you have to say that
 
I wish I could say I were surprised.
 
:P
Many of his case studies seem to be the various FMOD APIs.
 
@DeadMG And how would you stop it, other than prohibiting copies, moves and assignments from throwing? If you prohibit them from throwing, you're pretty much at the point that you nearly have to design something entirely different, without exceptions at all (and so far, alternatives mostly end up inferior).
 
5:19 PM
@JerryCoffin Simple.
 
> Avoid using friends
Reason given? If you have friend class Graph; anyone can create a class named Graph and access the private stuffs.
 
first, I will say that copy/move on the caller's side is banned if the return value is an (er, I think it's prvalue).
 
This is so stupid I don't even.
 
e.g., auto x = stack.pop(); would now be equivalent to auto&& x = stack.pop();.
so it's throwing or not is irrelevant, as it were.
 
Wait.
This is supposed to be updated for C++11.
Gosh.
 
5:22 PM
the only real issue is on the implementation of pop(), I'd need an RAII object that could behave differently depending on whether or not it was destructed due to exception.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, it's true.
 
It's also something ridiculous to design around.
 
but that won't be too difficult for me to implement.
there are other proposals for things like ~T(...).
 
If users of your library are going to willy-nilly drop conflicting names in your namespace... well, their fucking loss.
 
friend is a blunt instrument, though. I haven't found strong uses for it yet
 
5:27 PM
It recommends checking for self-assignment in assignment ops.
 
lollerskates
the only reason I'd check for self-assignment is to assert on self-assignment.
 
@DeadMG Which requires (quite a few) more restrictions. For example, right now I might be depending on an implicit conversion, which that wouldn't do.
 
I like how he tells you to prefer passing const-references instead of pointers and then proceeds to pass pointer arguments in all examples.
 
user1804599
lol
 
@JerryCoffin True. But I think that stack.pop() being exception-safe doesn't really require that your use of the return is exception safe. If your construction from that value or conversion or whatever throws, then that's not really stack.pop()'s problem.
 
5:31 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit If Bjarne had designed iostreams to use myobject >> stream or myobject << stream instead of stream >> myobject and stream << myobject, roughly 99% of the uses for friend would never have existed.
 
Ok, back in the shelf now. Telling my teammates they can burn it if I don't get to watch it.
 
@DeadMG You can point the blame somewhere else if you want, but that doesn't change the fact that x = stack.pop(); is going to lead to problems.
 
@JerryCoffin No more than x = f(); for any f.
 
@DeadMG Well, yes, much more -- because pop destroys the item at the top of the stack.
 
@JerryCoffin Any f might have some side effect if it completes successfully.
 
5:38 PM
Can you friend a member function?
 
@DeadMG If so, that's a problem with the design of the f in question. Well, not necessarily a problem exactly -- it might be documented to provide only basic exception safety, not (for example) strong exception safety. A stack.pop() that returns the item at the top of the stack can't even provide basic exception safety.
 
@JerryCoffin So what you're saying is, "Every function with side effects where it's possible to use the return value in a non-exception-safe way is broken by design".
 
@DeadMG No, I haven't said anything of the sort.
 
You'd need atomic transactions for strong exception safety like that.
 
@JerryCoffin You said that x = f(); is broken by design, if x = f(); might throw and f() has side effcts.
 
user1804599
5:45 PM
Huh, wait wut.
 
user1804599
NSString *a = @"hello there";
a[1];                   // "e"
[a:2:3];                // "llo"
[a:-3:2];               // "er"
 
user1804599
I didn’t know Objective-C supported this syntax. :V
 
user1804599
Oh wait ugh dat hack.
 
wow, that was like the shortest burst of "oh that will be fun to work on" project I've ever had ¬_¬
 
er, that f() was broken by design.
 
user1804599
5:48 PM
I want transactional memory model and transactional file system.
 
user1804599
Transactions are wonderful.
 
[Anon encounters a mishap while trying to lose his virginity] http://t.co/7jnXvyCumq
Ponies destroy lives [CONFIRMED]
 
user1804599
@CatPlusPlus lol
 
@not-rightfold STM :v
 
user1804599
I want relational type system.
 
5:51 PM
19:40:17 NHibernate.Type.Int64Type returning '1000000000' as column: Time
19:40:18 Components.Server migration #2 1970-01-01T00:01:40Z
 
user1804599
With sets. Fuck bags.
 
I had to write another logger factory and logger wrapper. :v
 
user1804599
lol
 
user1804599
Use SQL and System.Tuple.
 
@CatPlusPlus It's sad that he can't adequately explain things to her.
 
5:53 PM
@CatPlusPlus Bottom line -> "I really want sex"
 
I'm not sure "I really love ponies" would be much better than "I'm cheating on you"
 
Ell
@rightfold what's a relational type system?
 
user1804599
@Ell What RDBMSes use, perhaps? vOv
 
@CatPlusPlus If it doesn't work, then I'm afraid this relationship is doomed anyway.
 
@Ell something only rightfold would come up with
 
Ell
5:55 PM
I don't know very well what RDBMSes use
 
@not-rightfold That's a data model, not type system
 
Ell
I thought they used tables
 
user1804599
@CatPlusPlus Type system could be heavily influenced by it.
 
They use tuples and relations
@not-rightfold I'm not sure what a "relational" type system would even do
The types involved aren't horribly complex
 
user1804599
Right.
 
5:59 PM
@Ell They use relations.
 
And attributes :v
 
user1804599
Are the sets that are produced during operations also called relations?
 

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