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9:00 PM
For that matter, I almost never choose a language/platform. That's given by the customer.
 
@JonathanSeng Which is why I'm more proficient in Java.
 
Whenever you have some kind of demand, C++ is usually the right tool. It could be performance, it could be other things.
 
@JonathanSeng You may not care about performance. (And a lot of people don't, that's what PHP is for :P) But there are plenty of people who both care and need performance.
 
But, I also recall doing in one day with Java calling an XSLT and using the postgres loader on the output what was going to take weeks in QT XML and QT database. (At that time, I couldn't find XSLT in QT).
 
9:02 PM
@JonathanSeng At least to me, C++ is bit like the old like about democracy: being the worst possible form of government -- except for all the others we've tried. C++ sucks, but at least for nearly everything I do, everything else is dramatically worse.
 
@Mysticial More people care about performance than should. But, again, if the customer says performance first, okay, C++ probably wins.
 
@TonyTheLion It's easy to guarantee 90% occupancy- just shift inmates from other prisons
 
@JerryCoffin I won't dispute what you do since I don't know it. :-)
 
@jornak I consider that a mistake.
 
@DeadMG the idea is just stupid.
 
9:03 PM
the real problem is that both prison and school are completely ineffective at their chosen tasks
 
@JonathanSeng C++ is not only about performance. I've seen C++ and Java codebases alike, and C++ codebases are a lot more manageable than Java ones
 
this is true
look at recidivism rates
 
@DeadMG I loved the guy in Michigan petitioning to convert the classification of school to prison to get the greater funding that prisons get.
 
@JonathanSeng Well, if you actually look, they have many things in common.
 
@netcoder I would question whether they were created with persons of the same skill, etc. But, the whole destructor thing (alone) may slide things that way.
 
9:05 PM
Biggest Lie Evar: I'll get my work done right away, no slacking.
2
 
@DeadMG Not disputing. My high school was converting into a "day prison" when I left.
 
void incarcerateInmate(punishment & sentence){ while(sentence); convicts.pop(the_bugger_off_the_stack); }
 
@JonathanSeng The sad part that it applies to almost everything. For theoretical stuff, I really like Scheme -- but I can hardly think of a thing I've written in the last 20 years that wouldn't have been a nightmare in in. Likewise with Haskell. Java is even worse -- it'd be a nightmare, and I can't think of much about it to even like, not to mention love. To me, Java looks great if you want to claim you're in charge of a large department with lots of subordinates -- but definitely not for coding.
 
@JonathanSeng what do you not know? C++ or democracy?
 
@JerryCoffin I really like Grindwork Thinking Server. grindwork.com/site/node/34
2
@netcoder Whatever programming assignments you've had in your life. Good response, BTW.
 
9:07 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes If clients have a higher demand for Java, I'll do it in Java for them
 
of course, when LLVM's linker matures, Wide will take over ZE VORLD! mwahaha
 
@jornak Defined as willingness to pay more? :-)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I really don't see an issue with giving people what they request for monetary gain ;)
 
@jornak That's not what I meant. I meant that the built-in thread sync is a mistake.
 
@jornak if clients have a higher demand for Java, I'll tell them why they should do it in C++
 
9:08 PM
@JonathanSeng At least at first glance, it just looks like Prolog with worse syntax.
 
user406009
Wasn't D supposed to be the best of both worlds from Java and C++? Has anyone here actually used it for something major?
 
@netcoder And then they tell you "But I want it done in Java" because they don't understand it. :P
 
@JerryCoffin notpossible.gif
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Why is it a mistake?
 
@EthanSteinberg Define "major"
 
9:09 PM
@JerryCoffin Look closer. It unifies forward and back chaining, provides an actual server with persistence and, for some client libraries, secure, encrypted sockets./
 
@jornak exactly. if they want to do it in Java and they don't understand it, then why would they? they don't understand it anyway
 
@EthanSteinberg D is pretty much a giant pile of suck.
 
there's some starring trigger happy among us
 
@jornak I don't need a monitor in every object. I can create them whenever I need them. That features brings very very little to the table. And locking on public data (like this) is not a good idea.
 
@EthanSteinberg So far, the only thing in D I know of that could be called "major" is the D implementation itself.
 
9:11 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Eh, I guess so.
 
I want it done in marshmallows. I have huge a budget; there are takers.
 
@netcoder Okay, if a client already has a Java-based infrastructure, I'll go with Java. If they're starting from scratch, I'd make the case for C++
 
@CaptainGiraffe: I'll do it. I love marshmallows. Marshmallows are very flexible ;-)
 
@CaptainGiraffe I want all code done on IBM punch cards gogogo
 
@JerryCoffin Oh gawd, run for the hills.
 
9:13 PM
argh
the interwebs back here
 
@jornak If they ask for "from scratch," infrastructure, team skills, and the nature of the project are, together, deciding factors for me.
 
I'd get more bandwidth trying to hear someone else shouting the bits and bytes
 
@JonathanSeng Okay, so it has an updated network API. Pardon me if I'm not terribly impressed.
 
@netcoder R 2.15.1 (Roasted Marshmallows)? ;)
 
0
Q: How to circumvent Visual C++ security cookies

user1610015Does anybody know how to circumvent Visual C++ security cookies (generated by the /GS switch) in order to exploit a buffer overrun vulnerability in a program compiled with Visual C++?

Wut?
 
9:14 PM
@jornak In snobol
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Whoah....
 
daamn
why does the SO community look down so much on sarcastic answers to dumb questions
I have this big urge to write, like, "You go to the nearest police officer and explain your situation to him, and he will give-u-teh-codez"
 
@CaptainGiraffe Dartmouth BASIC.
 
@CaptainGiraffe Don't pick on SNOBOL too much. At the rate things are going, Perl 7 is going to almost catch up with the original SNOBOL (but definitely fall short of SPITBOL).
 
9:16 PM
Perl 7 is coming out when? 2053?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes You nubbery. It's June 3rd, 2052.
 
@JerryCoffin I'm laughing way too much at this. Thanks
 
how could you not get that exactly accurate
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Quit trying to rush them so much!
 
TIL SNOBOL and SPITBOL are actually computer languages.
 
9:19 PM
@TonyTheLion The dark ages.
 
yes sounds like
 
@TonyTheLion Where did you think the phrase "Not a SNOBOL's chance in hell" came from?
 
@jornak I have never heard that phrase
so i never wondered
 
@jornak The opportunity makes the thief.
 
user406009
I wonder if we can get user1610015 down to 0 points.
 
9:21 PM
lol
 
I think he got the message.
 
user406009
Funny how the actual docs for the compiler switch mention how to get around it.
 
@TonyTheLion Except that the language is really SNOBOL; SPITBOL is mostly just an implementation, though it did add a few semi-unique features of its own, so you could sort of think of it as SNOBOL 1.5. SNOBOL kept going through SNOBOL 4. After that came Icon, and finally Unicon.
 
@EthanSteinberg 17 now, haha.
 
@EthanSteinberg lol
 
9:24 PM
@JerryCoffin Just to touch on that just a little. The language development process today is actually miles ahead of yesteryear
 
@jornak People are going through his profile and downvoting his other answers too
 
well
 
CPU Wafer
 
the trick to language development is to ship small, and done.
 
it's kinda cool looking
 
9:25 PM
@Prætorian Ow.
@DeadMG You're screwed.
 
once you ship a language, you can never go back
 
user406009
@Prætorian Bunch of cheaters.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol
 
@JerryCoffin lol
 
once you ship a language, you can never go back
 
9:25 PM
you're repeating yourself
 
@DeadMG Dude we are c++ guys here, please don't swear.
 
I mean, I bet those C# morons wish they could go back and fix Object, and Object[] = String[], and such things
 
@DeadMG Yes, they do. Eric posted to that effect before.
But they'll never do it.
 
What's wrong with Object? (I've only done a little bit of C#)
 
@Borgleader Everything.
 
9:26 PM
@DeadMG I'd agree that our pedigree is superior in c++ land.
 
@Borgleader Too fat.
It doesn't need: a monitor, HashCode nor Equals.
 
you know
I've decided that compiler extensibility is a dumb idea
 
@CaptainGiraffe Hmm...maybe -- but Java, Perl 6, Python 3K, etc., all seem to have at least their share of snags, warts, etc.
 
For instance. stackoverflow.com/questions/5697328/… feel free to upvote =) (or please don't)
 
you'd basically have to generate new parser from scratch automatically if you wanted to modify it at run-time
 
9:29 PM
@JerryCoffin With the C background C++ is always true to its cause.
For instance making virtual a default would have been a disaster.
 
or maybe you could just stuff it full of std::functions
 
@DeadMG Not if you limit that extensibility to specific patterns.
 
would be a le mess, but might work
 
23 internets to whoever can tell me what language this is from:

FORMAT(YEAR OF (TODAY),"9999")
 
SQL?
 
9:33 PM
@DeadMG Nope, SQL's function would be YEAR().
 
A shitty one :P
 
MUMPS?
 
user406009
COBOL?
 
No, and no.
 
@DeadMG Extending the parser is the least of the problems. Including yacc-like capabilities in a compiler isn't exactly a tremendously difficult problem. The real problem is: what do you do with once you've parsed it? How do you handle everything else involved in compiling?
 
9:34 PM
@DeadMG One internet. I think you are correct.
 
yep
 
@CaptainGiraffe It's the HotDocs Scripting Language, <_<
 
@JerryCoffin Yeah, I simply addressed the stages as they came about.
lexer's not too bad.
parser worse
but semantic analysis could be, le messy
 
@DeadMG Symbol table, tree walking, code generation are where it gets ugly.
 
@DeadMG Doing some menial shit at a law firm, for Automatic Document Generation.
 
9:36 PM
@jornak First time I heard of it. Is it more popular than brainfuck?
 
@jornak Never heard of it.
 
@jornak HotDocs is mostly markup, more so than scripting
also, it's a Canadian Film Festival
 
@JerryCoffin Symbol table isn't too bad. I can make that work.
code generation would indeed be fugly
 
I need a grammar for this...
 
@CaptainGiraffe Define popular? Do you mean: "are there more people who have been exposed enough to hate it?" I'd guess yes. "Do the people who know it hate it more?" I'd guess also yes.
 
9:37 PM
@netcoder lolgoogle
 
@jornak: no, not google
I'm Canadian you know
 
Public ReadOnly Property CatDog() As String
    Get
        Return Me.Cat & me.Dog
    End Get
End Property
 
There's a language that lets you define new grammars on the fly, I don't remember the name.
 
@netcoder Wait so you actually know what HotDocs (the program) is?
 
@DeadMG If the symbols follow the same rules as you're using elsewhere, sure. Think of starting with a C compiler and attempting to add namespaces at compile time though...
 
user406009
9:37 PM
@CatPlusPlus Forth?
 
@CatPlusPlus Katahdin.
 
@CatPlusPlus Lisp?
 
@JerryCoffin Well, that is Bjarnes measure, that will do. You are ok; please proceed.
 
@jornak: heard of it, but never used it (fortunately)
 
9:38 PM
@JonathanSeng No, real new grammars.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah, that.
What robot said.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Lisp macros are pretty damned good at that.
 
@JonathanSeng Lisp doesn't give you new grammars. It's parentheses all the way down.
 
@JerryCoffin Well, you'd have to add :: as a token.
 
ohai. hit the sack early night :|
 
9:38 PM
@netcoder It's actually popular with a lot of companies for automatic document generation.
 
Too damn tired.
 
then x::y as an expression in the right place.
 
@DeadMG I'm thinking more about things like adding ADL.
 
@jornak: yeah I know, I work mostly in media companies, like newspaper companies and what not
 
Ell
CINAMMONN?
 
9:39 PM
then you'd have to hook into the symbol table lookup routines
 
General notice: life should be fairer. By a considerable margin.
Just saying.
 
Ell
GRAHAM?
BALLSACK?
 
@netcoder Oh, awesome.
 
@Ell the ritalin!
@CatPlusPlus Factor, Lisp (reader macros), perhaps Boo(?) / Nemerle?
 
@JonathanSeng Can you write Fortran in Lisp? Or Python? You can in Katahdin: pastie.org/4742534
 
9:41 PM
You can rig new grammars in Lisp, but it takes more effort.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes What Lisp I know is too rusty to answer that.
 
Is this bad code? Will I get ridiculed for having conditional statements inside a property?

Public ReadOnly Property CatDog() As String
Get
If Me.IsAnimated = 0 Then
Return Me.Cat & IIf(Len(Trim(Me.Dog)) > 0, " " & Me.Dog, Nothing)
Else
Return "Not Cat Dog "
End If
End Get
End Property
 
That, and, well, I don't know or care to know Fortran.
 
You can replace Fortran with anything you can write a grammar for (i.e. C++ will be a freaking pain in the butt).
 
@kush: considering the language it's made with, I'd say yes, totally bad code
 
9:43 PM
@netcoder I am sorry for using visual basic
 
@kush Perhaps -- but you'll almost certainly get ridiculed more for posting code (or a question) like that here. Here we chat, and occasionally mention C++. That doesn't seem to fit either one...
 
@kush Absolutely. You're not making it any better by messing up the formatting
 
@kush Yes. If you want to do .NET, learn C#.
 
@sehe I don't know how I messed it up. It worked fine with the earlier one
 
@kush Use 'Fixed font' button... (newbie hints)
 
9:45 PM
@sehe :thanks
 
@kush heh, also C# is actually easier than VB these days
 
@KonradRudolph whoa - what change in avatar. Also, greengoo.de isn't exactly functioning right, a.t.m.; hope that's okay?
 
but why can't I edit anymore?
 
Sep 9 at 11:45, by daknøk
If you are new here, please read the newbie hints right away, and only post here afterwards. Thank you.
 
Afk, hunting and gathering.
 
9:47 PM
@kush And I say unto thee: repent, or ye shall burn in hell for all eternity for your sins! Accept C++ into your heart and pray thee to the lord God Stroustrup, that ye shall be saved, and live no more in thy sinful ways! [hmm...maybe I've heard one too many Republican political ads recently].
 
Pro tip: Buy vitals for a week, reduce time spent hunting/gathering
Esepcially useful in autumn when bad wheather might strike at unexpected times
 
@JerryCoffin you probably don't want me to write in cpp. you will have to do a lot of clean up after me for at least the first year
 
@kush Don't apologize to us, apologize to VB!
 
ugh VB :(
sucks cock
 
@sehe Pro tip: send girlfriend/wife to store, no time spent hunting/gathering
 
9:48 PM
I don't have Lionesses to do my hunting for me
 
@TonyTheLion I can't agree. If it sucked cock, that would be a good thing.
4
 
@TonyTheLion Lionesses have very fancy tastes. I'd spend more time arguing about what I hunted than it took me to hunt it, cook it and eat it
 
@JerryCoffin Best reply EVAR! :) Have a star :)
@netcoder valid point
 
@TonyTheLion Thanks, I guess.
 
@sehe I spent the day sleeping, enjoying a rest I sorely needed. I will buy stuff tomorrow morning. Also, I like rain, and going out for food is a nice excuse to enjoy it without causing my flatmates to doubt my sanity.
 
9:51 PM
:)
Online Shopping FTW
never have to go out in the rain
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I like rain. But not with icy winds. I wonder, maybe that doesn't happen so often in your region
 
I hate rain, snow is so much better
 
@sehe there is no vb room. the .NET room really hates vb
 
I wonder why
 
@kush: who doesn't?
@kush: why are you doing VB in the first place? high school?
(P.S.: not trolling, I'm actually curious)
 
9:55 PM
@kush Everybody hates vb. Before you try to contradict: that's a definition -- if you don't hate vb, you're (by definition) a nobody! :-)
 
Fuck VB, I hate it with a passion ( and yes I've used it for several projects )
Writing End If is retarded
 
@TonyTheLion so did I...
I mean, VB1, VB3 though
 
Ell
I don't see so much wrong with vb.net
 
It was pretty much the only not completely insane way to do Windows 3 apps back then
 
lol
@Ell you need to look harder
 
10:00 PM
Ok, really off to sleep
 
gnight
 
@sehe G'night.
 
@Ell netcoder sets mode +o
 
@netcoder for work actually. A legacy web application. I don't have much prior exposure to vb. I am trying to keep within the convention. I am trying to do my best within the limits of what is available
 
... oh wait, that's not irc, shit
 
Ell
10:02 PM
Hmm. I need to learn how to make le internets. PHP, asp.net, etc. Etc.
 
@Ell: no, not PHP...
no, not ASP.NET, unless it's C#
 
@JerryCoffin I don't actually hate Visual Basic. It will die away anyways.
 
Ell
What else do people actually write websites in? Python? Ruby?
 
I do Python
 
Ell
I really can't grok mvc no matter how much I try?
All I can imagine is user front end and database backend
So wtf is a controller?
 
10:05 PM
@Ell: in MVC a controller is what the user interacts with
nevermind that, badly worded
 
Ell
I thought the view did that?
 
I actually answered that question earlier in Python today, I don't feel like repeating myself...
 
Well, it's time to get enable the debug runtime.
 
Ell
10:16 PM
Hmm so a webpage could be both the view and the controller
 
@Ell: web is a little different, because it doesn't apply well to web
 
Ell
Mvc? Howcome everybody uses it? O.O oops kk
 
web MVC is not actually the MVC pattern itself, it's more Model 2 (comes from Java heh)
the problem is that people see Model, View and Controller and they think MVC
although Model 2 is based on MVC, it's not MVC per se
 
Ell
Just to make things easier ;)
So let's say I'm using django, what would I be using?
 
@Ell: Model 2
the difference between MVC and Model 2 is that in MVC, the Model notifies (calls) the View; while in Model 2, the Controller calls the View
since in web apps the View is sent to the client and is not modifiable after that, you can't have the Model call the View, that's why it's different, hence the Model 2 design pattern
 
Ell
10:25 PM
Right okay
I'm reading django doc now
Morning mood is such a powerful composition
 
@sehe No, not here. But in my hometown they're more common.
 
11:37 PM
oh fuckbuckets
some recruiters are just so irritating
 
Really?
 
One of the advantages and disadvantages of living in the middle of nowhere and not being willing to relocate is that I don't talk to too many of them.
 

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