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11:00 PM
Yup. C++ is just a tool. It happens to be very good at the things he targets
 
@MooingDuck There was a really nice tutorial set on ASP.NET development which usually costs a buttload for free.
@unNaturhal You didn't understand.
 
@Drise Maybe... This is the proof that English is not my first language...
 
@unNaturhal Yea. Do you play video games? Like XBox live?
 
@unNaturhal Don't worry, he didn't address you as "pubescent boy who thinks he's all-mighty because he has a computer", but instead doesn't want you to become one.
 
@Drise Occasionally.. When I have time
@Zeta And I don't want to became one :)
 
11:03 PM
btw, since you were talking about debuggers... anybody knows a stand-alone debugger with a graphical interface that doesn't suck bad and that runs on Linux? ddd is functional but has an ancient AND horrible interface.
(and it has its share of nasty bugs)
 
@unNaturhal How did you come up with your name?
 
@Chimera Buh, it's random xD It's the same gamertag that I use on XBOXLive, and when I created it seems nice, but now I don't like it so much..
 
@akappa Drise said the QTCreator IDE. That's the only good thing I've heard about easy debugging on linux
 
@unNaturhal Have you ever been trolled by very young boys, or screamed at?
 
but QTCreator isn't a standalone debugger, it is a full-fledged IDE.
I don't like IDEs, I code in vim + ctags
 
11:05 PM
@MooingDuck I stand by QtCreator 2.5. It's very good, and I use it for my day to day programming on linux.
@akappa Ew. Use an ide. Then you will see why VIM is outdated.
 
@unNaturhal Ok just curious if it had a meaning..
 
@akappa then no, theres no good standalone debugger for linux.
 
@Drise Nope, I just curse them when someone shot me from the other side of the map with a damned ACR ._. (for example)
 
@Drise Bah! VIM! Use ed instead!
 
@Chimera ed?
 
11:06 PM
@Drise: I used for almost five years an IDE: Eclipse/CDT. Then I tried a bunch of them, and I discovered I am more productive with vim.
@MooingDuck: sigh.
 
line oriented text editor... came before full screen editors in Unix.
ed is a line editor for the Unix operating system. It was one of the first end-user programs hosted on the system and has been standard in Unix-based systems ever since. ed was originally written in PDP-11/20 assembler by Ken Thompson in 1971. Ken Thompson was very familiar with an earlier editor known as qed from University of California at Berkeley, Ken Thompson's alma mater; he reimplemented qed on the CTSS and Multics systems, so it is natural that he carried many features of qed forward into ed. Ken Thompson's versions of qed were the first to implement regular expressions, an idea...
 
@akappa How does an IDE make you less productive? Just curious.
 
@akappa Aren't IDE's supposed to increase productivity by predicting for example variable names?
 
@KianMayne: I like writing Makefiles on my own. Navigating through a bunch of windows is hideous
 
@Chimera Mmmh.. When I created, I just would that it sounds good, so I chosed "natural" and negate it with "un".. The "h" is because.. buh, it sounds good (it's not a mistake)
 
11:08 PM
@KianMayne (good) go to definition, go to declaration, tab support (bad) slow, bugs
 
@akappa I just let QMake handle that
 
@Drise: gvim supports autocompletion. That's why I use ctags
 
@Drise that's oen of many features
 
@MooingDuck should have used Ie
 
@unNaturhal ah I understand now.
 
11:09 PM
@MooingDuck Slow? Not that I notice. Bugs, occassionally, but the trade off is for the good.
 
@akappa ...I see.
 
@Drise Why you asked me that?
 
@Drise we were talking about hypothetical IDEs. How buggy is your hypothetical IDE?
 
@Chimera :)
 
@akappa What do you do for UIs?
 
11:10 PM
@unNaturhal Asked you what?
 
hmmmmm
 
@KianMayne: I don't do GUIs. I code compressors and data structures.
a simple CLI is sufficient
 
@MooingDuck Qt creator doesn't have many bugs. I've only run into 1-2. Most of it is just not implemented features, like seeing into templates std::vector<std::vector<int>>, all it sees is the first vector.
 
Oh right
Does anyone do UIs here?
 
11:12 PM
@unNaturhal That is the experience of pre or pubescent boys that I know of that most people loath.
 
IDEs in Java are pretty valuable, because its syntax is horribly redundant. Moreover, it doesn't have templates, so its auto-completion breaks far less than any C++ IDE I tried.
Maybe the only thing I miss is a good refactoring tool, not always sed is sufficient.
 
oh, fuckery
no wonder my constant fold did nothing
 
But gvim as a text editor is so good it overwhelms this deficiency with its awesomeness
 
@Drise Umh? It means that I'm a "pubescent" just because I play Call of Duty? (I repeat, I play just when I have time, between an exam and another, oin the two days of pause that I take)
 
58 mins ago, by DeadMG
600 bits to go
 
11:15 PM
@unNaturhal: how old are you? Just wondering
 
@MooingDuck Well, I think I solved the mystery of some of them.
if I'm lucky, most or even all of them.
 
@unNaturhal Don't worry about it.
 
@akappa 21
 
Alright. I'm going to go take the second final. I'll see ya'll tomorrow.
@unNaturhal Definitely not pubescent.
 
@unNaturhal: I thought you were like 14, at least by reading how others are treating you
 
11:18 PM
I've hit such a wall now
 
@akappa Sometimes peoples talks without knowing thinks. Also if this time I don't feel joked so much..
 
I feel like I have programmers block
Only it's just because I haven't bothered to think
 
@KianMayne: you developed a shitty design and now you are fucked, you mean?
 
No, I designed this process that the user does
but
I wasn't consistent with my details
 
riiiight.
now I'm getting somewhere
 
11:20 PM
@KianMayne: close enough.
 
@DeadMG What are you doing?
 
@MooingDuck Which is better to choose? VS 2012 RC, or VS 2010?
 
trying to find the last six hundred bits of SHA-2 state which elude my current solving algorithm.
 
@unNaturhal probably the RC. It's ugly, but has the full C++11 library.
 
@unNaturhal: use whatever you like. I assume you aren't toying too much with advanced C++11 facilities
 
11:21 PM
Find them? What?
 
You guys having fun?
 
@KianMayne Prove their values.
 
@unNaturhal: are you attending some university?
 
11:21 PM
Oh right
 
@MooingDuck Why it's ugly?
@akappa I think so
 
I finally discovered, lols, that my constant folder was bugged.
 
@akappa Yeah
 
so there's no wonder that it failed to correctly analyze it
 
@unNaturhal: which field?
 
11:22 PM
@akappa Computer Science Engineering (is this is the right name in english)
 
computer science OR engineering?
 
@MooingDuck: wow, how much clutter!
 
@unNaturhal Computer Science is programming, Computer Engineering is CPUs and such
 
@akappa Both.. In italian it's name is "Ingegneria Informatica", so I literally translated, but I'm not sure that it's the right name
 
11:24 PM
@akappa I woudn't say cluttered, but the color choices... and the caps...
 
@unNaturhal This might make it more clear.
 
@unNaturhal: allora credo sia "computer engineering".
yup
 
I think VS RC is ugly in the Light theme
The dark one is nice
 
@MooingDuck Mmmh.. I think that mine it's in the middle.. It's part of Engineering branch, but it's about Computer science... I have Programming exams, and Computer architecture exams, along with a WIDE number of Mathematical exams
@akappa Me sa di si xD
 
computer engineering is about computer science.
 
11:26 PM
@unNaturhal That sounds like the University program I was going through years ago.
 
@akappa not where I am
@unNaturhal In USA, easy to tell depending on if the programming is high-level or low-level
 
@MooingDuck: and so what's like? Does it bears similarities with electronic engineering
 
@akappa The actual method that I've figured out is very simple, and I had kinda figured it out, just I didn't have anything concrete
 
@MooingDuck: in Italy it is not too much different
 
@akappa I don't understand your question
 
11:29 PM
@MooingDuck: In Italy it is common to think at "ingegneria informatica" as a kind of "mix" between electronic engineering and computer science
 
@Chimera So you have a college degree?
 
so I was wondering if "computer programming" shares some similarities with electronic engineering
 
@akappa here that would be "computer Engineering". "Computer Science" does almost nothing with hardware. "Engineering" does nothing with programming.
 
@unNaturhal No, I stopped going after about 2 years.
 
@MooingDuck My course cover the two things. I have exam that treat about C/C++ and exams on Computer/CPU architecture where you learn to program in ASM (motorola 68000)
 
11:30 PM
@MooingDuck: that's what I am telling. I hold a MSc in computer science, and we did nothing about hardware
 
@Chimera Oh... Can I ask why?
 
@unNaturhal Sure
 
@MooingDuck: but wait, a "computer engineer" does nothing with programming? Here in Italy we have (rather basic) courses on C++ even in fields like biomedical engineering
 
@unNaturhal I ran out of money and was going to take a semester off but ended up getting a really good job as a software developer. I started getting better and better jobs with increased pay and I made the mistake of thinking I didn't need to finish my degree.
 
@akappa no. "engineering" does nothing with programming. "Computer Engineering" has a little programming. "Computer Science" is almost entirely programming.
 
11:33 PM
well, it is almost entirely science I hope :D
 
algorithms, operational research, theory of computational complexity, computer architecture, parallel programming models, things like that
yup
 
@MooingDuck What the fuck school did you go to?
 
@unNaturhal Now that I've been working as a software developer for over fifteen years, work full time and have a wife and bills it's very hard to go back to school to finish. :-(
 
CS is "Theoretical wanking" with very little, if any, actual programming involved.
 
11:35 PM
"wanking"?
 
@Chimera Oh.. I can understand you.. Univerisities are really expansives (also if in italy we pay really lass than a US student, for example). Don't you have consider to continue the university along with your job? Some people to this thing, als if you will need so much time to complete the degree
 
@DeadMG my school had a fair amount of actual programming
@akappa dont google that
@DeadMG USA
 
@Chimera Oh ok, you aswered my question.. :/
 
@MooingDuck: I know what that means. I just don't agree with the idea that those are useless topics
 
@akappa to most programmers they are
 
11:36 PM
@akappa There are a few useful topics.
 
@unNaturhal But I've been planning on taking online and night time campus classes to finish my degree. It's a matter of having the time though.
 
but most of them are completely context-specific and should be learned on demand, not just taught to everybody.
 
error LNK2005: "void * __cdecl operator new(unsigned int)" (??2@YAPAXI@Z) already defined in LIBCMTD.lib(new.obj) Today is not a good day.
 
@DeadMG: most topics gives you a mental settings which is really invaluable. Maybe you will not end up proving problems reductions, but knowing about NP-hardness is very valuable
 
@Chimera Just failed my third year.
 
11:38 PM
@DeadMG That sucks.... You planning on going back?
 
@akappa NP and algorithmic complexity is in the "useful" bucket.
 
and no, you don't learn what a computational model is just on demand
 
@akappa I don't think every programmer needs to know about NP hardness actually. Nor abstract syntax trees.
 
@DeadMG: tell me something you think it's useless
 
but you provide no evidence to suggest that constructing an LR parser by hand for a trivial grammar produces any mental setting except "WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS BULLSHIT I AM SPENDING ALL THIS TIME AND MONEY ON?"
 
11:39 PM
@Chimera Job, wife and babies takes soooo much time :P However, if you can, it's even better to have a degree, at least for the satisfaction :P
 
@Chimera Nope.
 
@unNaturhal Agreed. I will somehow make the time because I really do want the satisfaction of finishing off my degree.
@DeadMG :-(
 
my third year consisted of things like "Memorize this matrix formula."
it was a complete waste of time and money.
 
@Chimera :D
 
I'll go back to university when they have something useful to teach me
 
11:40 PM
@DeadMG: given the fact that I enjoyed studying on the Dragon Book, it is hard to single out all the mental models studying something gives you. And, BTW, those topics could be relevant when you need to write a parser, which is not very exotic thing
 
@akappa Not really. If you want to write an LR parser, you get an LR parser generator.
 
@DeadMG In Italy, this is inactuable xD
 
and if you don't use a generator, then what you write by hand does not resemble the theoretical workings of an LR parser whatsoever.
 
@DeadMG: yeah, and what about leaking abstractions? And what if your language just can't be recognized by LR parsers? And how do you know what is an ambiguous grammar, and how that hurts you?
 
@akappa yes it is
 
11:42 PM
@DeadMG: sounds like you attended a course with a shitty exam.
 
@akappa most programmers will never write a grammar
 
@akappa The set of CFG that are not recognizable by LR is extremely small, at best.
and I will know that my grammar is ambiguous because the generator will tell me so.
 
@DeadMG: shit happens.
 
@DeadMG, @MooingDuck What @akappa is tring to say is that the "complexity" of an university course could give you the "menthal attitude" and the "problem solving skill" that an easier course will not
 
@DeadMG: in general, telling if a grammar is ambiguous or not is undecidable.
 
11:43 PM
@unNaturhal And he has absolutely no basis for that fact.
 
@DeadMG: I can't prove it, it is a psychological thing.
I experienced that
 
@akappa Not for CFGs. The process of generating a parser from a grammar description will easily tell you if it is ambiguous.
 
@akappa psychological things are provable via statistics
 
you know what gives you a problem solving skill? Solving a fucking problem on your own, instead of sucking the cock of a lecturer to tell you the answer.
 
@MooingDuck: correlation does not imply causation.
@DeadMG: definitively you had shitty exams.
 
11:45 PM
@akappa neither does making up things. You can prove correlation at least.
 
@DeadMG: and how do you know what a CFG grammar is? See, you are proving that this topic is, in fact, useful.
 
@akappa no, because most programmers will never need to write a grammar.
 
@akappa Not really. I learned everything useful to learn about CFGs and LR parsing long before that module.
 
@MooingDuck: yeah, so we design a CS degree only on the lowest common denominator of the skills needed at work?
 
@akappa Yes, of course you do.
 
11:46 PM
@akappa the common skills, yes
 
you teach people what they need to know.
 
@DeadMG: you are mixing the thing with how they teached you in university.
 
let me tell you what every programmer needs to know.
 
Some schooling + experience == FTW!
 
he needs to know "Don't use global variables" and DRY and stuff like that.
does every programmer replace their Standard library's sorting algorithm? Fuck no.
 
11:47 PM
@DeadMG Say this after you have done my Mathematical Anlisis exam with MY PROFESSOR :)
 
@akappa taught :-)
 
does every programmer write their own data structure implementations? Fuck no.
 
@akappa much programming revolves around business logic. And yet, I feel educated despite my CS degree not requiring me to take a business classes.
 
@DeadMG: this is a fucking technological aspect, that you learn from experience. No need of a school for those things
 
@unNaturhal How did you do in your spelling class? LOL..... jk
 
11:48 PM
@akappa Depends on whether you're the employer paying the employee for years before they pick them up, no?
 
@Chimera In italian u.u
 
@DeadMG: so what you really wanted is a professional school.
 
there's much more of a need for schools to teach things that every programmer needs to know, all the time, than for them to teach random algorithms that only a small minority need.
 
@unNaturhal Oh yeah... I forget .... sorry :-)
 
hmm, if I compile with MFC in a shared library, I get linker errors. When I compile with MFC shared DLL, I get compiler errors. Interesting.
 
11:49 PM
@DeadMG Here, colleges teach how to be a good programmer, while universities teach how to be a good CS researcher.
Unfortunately, many companies require that you get a university degree.
 
in fact, the ultimate question to answer is "what kind of people an university should build?"
this is a tough topic
 
@Chimera No, I'AM sorry.. I know that I shoud know English well that this :/
 
@akappa The kind that the relevant industry needs.
 
@DeadMG: and who is supposed to do research, then?
 
if doing research requires a separate education, then offer two separate degrees.
 
11:52 PM
and what about "bleeding-edge" stuff, which require a lot of theory?
@DeadMG: sounds like a stupid idea. A trade-off sounds more reasonable
you can't know what you'll end up doing at 19 years
 
@akappa Not really.
the vast majority of people do not become researchers.
if anything, the researcher degree should be cut, not the industry degree.
but as we've already established, they are in fact very different and don't share much content, so there's no reason for them to be the same degree.
 
@DeadMG: or, perhaps, there are a bunch of universities, each one offering their "trade-off", and you pick the one you prefer
 
@akappa No, they just all offer exclusively researcher degrees.
and if you don't have the "Suck cock to receive answer" mindset, then you're fucked.
 
lol
maybe I am lucky, but I didn't sucked cocks to achieve my degree
 
I even found a university which offers dedicated industry degrees, and it's still a pathetic joke.
 
11:55 PM
@DeadMG So, all University students suck cocks to reach the college degree? o.o
 
@akappa What did you study?
 
computer science
 
I meant more specifically
 
I think DeadMG is saying that perhaps for a lot of people a 2 year associates degree may be enough to work in the industry....?
 
did you study anything which your lecturers did not tell you to study?
did you solve any problem that your lecturers did not previously tell you how to solve?
 
11:56 PM
@DeadMG I did. :-)
 
I wish Visual Studio would stop being a complete dick
 
@KianMayne LOL
 
@DeadMG: of course.
 
@Chimera No, what I'm saying is that CS degrees are worthless junk that cost a bunch of time and money.
 
Well, here schools tend to teach to the "lowest common denominator" (actually, lower than that), but really, truly, verifiably stupid people graduate with CS degrees. And they know nothing of what they need to for industry.
 
11:57 PM
@DeadMG: my university didn't offer a course on C++, for example
 
neither did mine, and I'm an expert on it anyway
 
What they get is a watered-down version of what the puppy would call a research degree, so they are neither prepared for research or real work.
 
but, of course, if you want to get credit for it, then whoops, fuck you
 
@DeadMG: yup. So?
 
we only recognize it if you memorize the formulas we wrote on the blackboard.
 
11:58 PM
@DeadMG: I don't mind. Learning something has its value, besides credits
 
of course
but nowhere near as much value as credit learning
 
@DeadMG: I dunno, the italian university system is different from the USA one
 
because it's pretty fuckin' hard to get a job if you didn't get enough credits
 
so my experience is different from yours.
 
@akappa What makes you think I'm from the USA?
 

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