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8:00 PM
@FredOverflow It was available since forever.
 
@chris Why would someone even care about std::cout - except that it'll be a linebufferend ostream in textmode? Tell me about std::ostream instead :)
 
@sbi Something that's been in the negative for a while, but it just got a lot worse :p
 
@sbi both Objective-C and C++ come from around ’83, AFAIK. I wouldn't say it provided the paradigms already provided by C++.
 
In computer programming, COMEFROM (or COME FROM) is an obscure control flow structure used in some programming languages, originally as a joke. COMEFROM is roughly the opposite of GOTO in that it can take the execution state from any arbitrary point in code to a COMEFROM statement. The point in code where the state transfer happens is usually given as a parameter to COMEFROM. Whether the transfer happens before or after the instruction at the specified transfer point depends on the language used. Depending on the language used, multiple COMEFROMs referencing the same departure point may be...
 
@CatPlusPlus But apparently, it just got TeXier.
 
8:01 PM
@RadekSlupik Nice pun ^
 
sbi
22 hours ago, by FredOverflow
@sbi C with classes is 1979, C++ is 1983.
 
Also, Simula and Smalltalk's OOP are quite different.
And, Objective-C supports dynamic typing without evil hacks and void pointers.
But C++ has namespaces. :P
 
Obj-C is the evil hack.
 
Nah.
 
8:03 PM
Lol
 
Nol
 
Erwin Kroll
 
Peter Timofeef
 
A coworker today pointed out that objc really has a lot in common with Qt's MOC. It looks like a bunch of preprocessor extensions layered on top of C/C++, with a custom compiler to interpret them, in order to hack in support for a lot of runtime introspection and things that aren't supported by the "base" language
 
Helga van Leur
 
8:05 PM
Piet Paulusma
 
Except MOC isn't terrible and doesn't invent completely new and terrible syntax.
 
nu.nl/weer
 
I can live with MOC, because it works mostly in background.
 
@RadekSlupik Jan Pelleboer
Weermannen en -vrouwen presenteren het weerbericht op de televisie (en soms ook op de radio). Sommige meteorologen worden bekend als weerman of weervrouw, maar niet elke weerman of weervrouw is meteoroloog. Australië Weervrouwen * Sarah Cumming (Seven News) * Georgie Gardner (Nine Network) * Sara Groen (Seven News) * Jaynie Seal (Nine Network) België Vlaanderen Weermannen * Jan Boomans * Ron Cornelissen * Frank Deboosere * David Dehenauw * Eddy De Mey * Michel De Meyer * Bob De Richter * Frank Duboccage * Eric Goyvaerts * Georges Küster * Hugo Mathues * Armand Pien † * Roby ...
 
Obj-C is a language that has a syntax for generating useless getters and setters.
 
8:06 PM
They aren't useless in Objective-C.
 
Woot
 
@CatPlusPlus MOC is extremely terrible :|
 
Objective-C is an objectively subjective language.
 
Try are needed, in fact, by KVO.
 
@jalf Okay, it's less terrible than Obj-C.
 
Ell
8:07 PM
I don't see the issue with getters/setters
 
They are useless.
 
Ell
imho they make for consistency
 
They do nothing.
 
Yeah MOC doesn't get in the way. You really don't notice all the preprocessing shit. The same can't be said for Obj-C.
 
If language needs them, it only proves how terrible it is.
 
sbi
8:07 PM
@Ell google for "quasi classes". First hit. At idnews.
 
@jalf It's a tool that converts Qt's non standard extensions into standard C++ code.
 
Ell
they make accessing/setting members consistent
 
@Ell What.
They make poor design and quasi-classes and terrible code in general.
 
@kbok MOC gets in the way on a regular basis. Say, when it fails to understand namespaces correctly in its signal/slot mechanism
 
sbi
@Ell Yeah, they make that, which you shouldn't need to have, consistent. So?
 
8:08 PM
How would you implement a button without setters? How would you set its text?
 
Ell
well if setting a member needs some special behavior or if a member needs to be checked or whatever then you have to use getThis or setThis or whatever
 
We've found a number of cases where MOC just doesn't do what it's supposed to, because it's not a compiler, it's a shitty preprocessor trying to extract sane information from annotated C++ code
 
Ell
@RadekSlupik public members
 
@jalf Didn't have problems with that, thought I only wrote simple apps in Qt.
 
8:08 PM
@Ell and then? The button must constantly check if it's changed?
No way.
 
Ell
@RadekSlupik I'm on your side!
 
What's MOC?
 
At least obj-c has elevated these hacks into a proper language, and written a compiler which deals with them consistently. :)
 
@Mysticial Meta Object Compiler.
 
it's also a ridiculously ugly language, of course
 
8:09 PM
@CatPlusPlus ah
 
It's also terrible.
 
sbi
@Mysticial Consider yourself lucky.
 
@jalf True that. But the point of Qt is that it leverages existing C++ knowledge
 
@sbi why?
 
@jalf Namespaces? In a Qt app? Bahahahaha.
 
Ell
8:10 PM
@Mysticial Qt preprocessor I think
 
@Mysticial It's the "compiler" Qt uses to extend C++ code to add support for introspection and signals/slots and things
 
@EtiennedeMartel Yeah that's a bit weird if you ask me
 
@jalf Back in 1992, that was a sensible thing to do.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Sure
 
I also looove the method/selector/however-the-fuck-they-call-it names.
[someString stringByAppendingPathComponent:@"why the hell is that @ even there"]
 
sbi
8:11 PM
@Mysticial Because you have to ask what it is.
 
And why the hell does string have that method.
 
@sbi well... I googled it and got a bunch of useless hits
 
Objective-C is what happens when you mix two languages with wildly different semantics and syntax.
 
@CatPlusPlus like I said, it looks like it originated as some preprocessor fluff, kind of like MOC. That cruft looks like something that's designed to be easy to find for a hacky preprocessor :)
 
@Mysticial Ah I see you're on safe search
 
8:12 PM
@CatPlusPlus :@ looks like an angry face.
 
Mount Olive College
Museum of the Confederacy
Mars Orbiter Camera
 
There's little C in Obj-C anyway.
 
sbi
@Mysticial If that isn't a strong reason to be happy to not having had any contact with something...
 
@CatPlusPlus There's a lot of C. Objective-C is a superset of C.
There's more C in ObjC than there is in C++.
 
@sehe uh oh... yeah I'm on whatever the default setting is.
 
8:13 PM
If you pack everything into Obj-C objects then there's little C left.
 
Except pointers.
 
Oh, yes. Pointers.
[[Class alloc] init] is wonderful.
 
@Mysticial Tits are never useless
 
self = [super init] is even more wonderful.
 
@CatPlusPlus malloc + function call!
 
8:14 PM
lol
 
sbi
And why is it that, every time I realize this chat is boring and nobody is reacting to whatever I uttered anyway, and thus I fire up Quake to kick some ass, this damn thing goes "PLINK!" in the background?
 
@CatPlusPlus You're incriminating yourself by showing such intimate knowledge of the devil's language :]
 
So, to summarize, C++ is not that bad.
 
"Yeah, well, init can fail and return nil. Of course you should propagate it downwards manually."
 
@sbi lol, Quake.
 
8:15 PM
@sehe So happened I'm an iOS developer now.
 
@sbi That's something we do to annoy you big time :)
 
Expect lots of rants about terribleness of Obj-C.
 
@CatPlusPlus Oh really. I hope it is fun
 
No, it's not.
 
Java > ObjC.
 
8:15 PM
I'm an Android dev, too! It sucks, too!
 
The #1 Windows fanboy at work was put in charge of our iOS project. That was fun :D
 
php === Obj-C?
 
@CatPlusPlus Not as much.
 
sbi
@EtiennedeMartel QIIIA, mind you!
 
@EtiennedeMartel Hey, I never moved on since Duke Nukem 3D :) And I can't say I fire that up when I'm bored
 
8:16 PM
@sbi Aaaaah.
 
Good lord, it's like they thought of the most horrible API ever and then vomited Java all over it.
 
I sit next to him. That provides lots of entertainment... :)
 
Or other way around.
 
Ell
I'm stuck on duke nukem 3d :(
 
> I'm getting syntax errors from this line:
> list( ) = template list ) = template
lol
 
8:16 PM
But yeah, it's better than ObjC.
 
@CatPlusPlus I'm a fan of how you have to create every activity in seventeen different places. Or just three, whatever
 
And iOS and OSX.
 
@kbok I hope you do/ Oh, that was a quote
 
@SamDeHaan Don't you love when there's million entry points to your app.
And any shared state is handwaved into a singleton.
 
I came into shooters quite late. I played quite a bit with console shooters (Perfect Dark, Turok, TimeSplitters), but aside from the usual Doom or Quake, the first PC shooter I really played was CoD4.
 
8:17 PM
@sehe Yeah I failed the markdown again :(
 
Awww yeah, singletons errywhere.
 
Actually, they're just in one spot
 
He must think )= is some kind of operator
 
I want mobile platform using Haskell as the language.
 
"Operator sad face"
 
8:18 PM
@kbok An OSX operator.
 
Ell
Ughhh haskell
 
Does it actually make sense to learn vim ? I'm afraid I'm too old for that shit
 
activity :: forall s. Activity s () beats class Activity extends Activity /* fuck you if you need to share code inside the hierarchy without tons of boilerplate */
@kbok Yes.
 
@Ell What’s wrong with it?
Scared of something different? :)
 
Ell
@RadekSlupik pretty much :L
 
8:21 PM
You know, it'd be fun to develop a mobile platform using Haskell, if it weren't so useless.
 
I have know a couple of people to use the vim extension for VS
 
Ell
I don't see how I can make anything useful with haskell
 
@Ell You can do everything.
 
@rerun Which one ?
 
-- Print some text?
foo :: IO ()
foo = putStrLn "Hello, world!"
 
8:22 PM
@CatPlusPlus Write an Haskell implementation that targets Dalvik.
 
Ell
Well for example, a gui - something very fundamental to a lot of desktop applications, suits the OOPS paradigm well IMHO, how do gui elements map to functions?
 
@Ell No, it doesn't suit the OOP paradigm well.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Frege would probably run, but the overall architecture of that system is meh.
 
You have a button and that button triggers a function when clicked, or whatever.
Not that hard, is it?
 
Every time you click a button, you enter a new world ;)
 
8:23 PM
Functional Reactive Programming.
 
Just look at many magnificent GUI frameworks you have built around the OOP paradigm.
Oh wait.
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes there are no magnificent gui frameworks I have found
 
@Ell There you go.
 
Also GUI elements aren't mapped to functions, behaviours are.
 
OOP is so well-suited.
 
8:24 PM
It's like saying GUI elements are mapped to methods in OOP.
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes I mean - at all
 
Nonsense.
 
Ell
Show me a magnificent gui library, OOP or otherwise
 
AppKit!
 
@FredOverflow Every time you dick a button?
 
8:25 PM
Lol no.
 
Wait, I’m biased.
 
133
Q: Is functional GUI programming possible?

shostiI've recently caught the FP bug (trying to learn Haskell), and I've been really impressed with what I've seen so far (first-class functions, lazy evaluation, and all the other goodies). I'm no expert yet, but I've already begun to find it easier to reason "functionally" than imperatively for bas...

 
@CatPlusPlus Hmm, GUIs are event based by nature, so it could work.
 
Hence why FRP.
 
@Ell "a gui .... suits the OOPS paradigm well IMHO" R.Martinho's sarcasm was saying that OO fits GUI quite poorly
 
8:26 PM
It enables event-based programming in a neat way.
 
Ell
oops :L
 
It's also completely mind blowing.
 
Fuck you chat.
 
Ell
How about this, gui fits oop/functional mix paradigm well
 
parseerror happens.
 
8:27 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Fuck that cat.
 
GUI doesn't really need OOP.
 
There were some nice articles about minimal-boilerplate UIs in Haskell.
I can't find them. :<
Rooobot heeelp.
 
Hmm, sorry never saw them.
 
You guys need to chill out and drink.
 
8:29 PM
I saw some nice framework for WPF development with the Reactive Extensions though.
 
I'm raiding another microbrewery tonight.
 
Reactive programming is really nice for UIs.
 
Chrome, STOP. DISPLAYING. ADOBE ACROBAT PROMPT.
 
8:32 PM
0
Q: What are binary tress and why are they useful?

DriseWhat are binary trees? Why are they useful? Why do some STL containers use them for storing elements? Why is the time required to search a tree O(log n)?

 
Uninstall Adobe Acrobat. Problem solved.
 
If I missed something, let me know.
 
I don't have it. It prompts for installing it.
 
@CatPlusPlus Y U ADOBE ACROBAT.
 
Why. Why is software that could be perfectly good always ruined by idiotic design decisions.
 
8:32 PM
@CatPlusPlus Uninstall chrome then
 
What?
 
Why is it not a setting.
 
Abstain and become a monk
 
Chrome has a built-in PDF viewer.
 
8:33 PM
@Drise that's almost a dive by :)
 
Update Chrome.
 
Good lord.
 
It will be. Why can't you find it
 
@MooingDuck Almost, but I've been working on it for an hour, and the image 5 or 6. I'd also like to include it as part of the C++ FAQ
 
@RadekSlupik Actually, it abuses Google Docs for that, no?
 
8:33 PM
I just done did some chores for my dad, im back
 
YES IT HAS BUILTIN PDF VIEWER AND THAT BUILTIN PDF VIEWER DISPLAYS BUILTIN PDF PROMPT FOR FUCKING ADOBE ACROBAT READER BECAUSE ITS NOT INSTALLED OKAY
 
@CatPlusPlus OKAY
 
Wow this is neat.
 
@sehe No?
 
8:34 PM
@RadekSlupik Bah. I'd hate it
@RadekSlupik I, that's what I remember seeing & using once
 
Desktop notifications are cool. Chrome had them forever.
 
Is: Programming and Problem Solving with C++ a good book?
 
Probably not.
 
@user1515422 I don't have it. Never heard of either
 
@RadekSlupik is that the new notification center?
 
8:34 PM
Who is the author :)
 
@bamboon Yup.
Well, it's a notification.
 
its a book they gave to students at a college
so it is good?
 
It's definitely bad.
 
It’s definitely good.
 
With a punny subtitle:
 
8:35 PM
@Drise is your AVL implementation really relevant to the question?
 
> The object of programming
 
@SamDeHaan It's how I generated the image.
 
I want more RAM to be able to compile Chromium.
 
i use chromium and i only have 1 gig of RAM
 
@user1515422 So, read the reviews on Amazon? amazon.com/Problem-Solving-With-Object-Programming/…
 
8:36 PM
@Drise /shrug. I don't know. I liked your answer, and then at the end was DUMP CODE HERE. Ruined it for me a bit.
 
Right now I can barely even run it, and linking it takes about 8 times as much memory.
I want that damn prompt gone.
 
@SamDeHaan Is there a way I could hide it?
 
And tab close buttons.
Stupid Google and their on perfectly good settings.
 
@sehe Seems to be on the good C++ book island of Amazon.
 
8:37 PM
@Drise Not that I know of, other than obviously hosting it elsewhere and linking.
 
@SamDeHaan Hm..
 
That one is on the bad C++ book island of Amazon.
 
It's not on the list.
It's bad.
 
it is? how do you know?
 
8:38 PM
It's that simple.
 
q.q
 
All C++ books are bad until proven otherwise.
3
 
i paid $85 for it because hackforums said it was good
 
Your forum is terrible and you should stop visiting it.
 
Jul 25 '11 at 17:22, by Martinho Fernandes
Good books suggest good books, bad books suggest bad books. Seems like two completely separate worlds.
 
8:39 PM
i have, thats why I go here now to help others like on that forum. :D
 
@user1515422 One more reason to shun hackforums
 
what book should I buy?
 
Lol I get a captcha on that domain.
 
Xcode y u no install faster. I want to use new APIs.
 
1364
Q: The Definitive C++ Book Guide and List

grepsedawkThis question attempts to collect the few pearls among the dozens of bad C++ books that are released every year. Unlike many other programming languages, which are often picked up on the go from tutorials found on the Internet, few are able to quickly pick up C++ without studying a good C++ book...

 
8:39 PM
hackfourms? yeah, we get DDoSed a lot
 
uhoh "we" :)
 
Well, hackforums is... purple.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes we should put a list of "known bad books" on the definitive list. And by we I mean you.
 
Gods, those shitty websites.
 
> If you're looking for methods to make more money online this is your forum. We ask that if you have great ideas or a system to monetize please share it.
Seems legit.
 
8:40 PM
@MooingDuck Doesn't scale
 
@EtiennedeMartel Lol.
 
@sehe Why? Does it use SQL and joins?
 
The only good forum on the Internet is SA.
 
@SamDeHaan Go back and check.
 
@RadekSlupik :)
 
8:41 PM
@MooingDuck All books not listed are bad.
 
@user1515422 It's bad.
 
@Drise imperative is rarely imperative
 
sbi
@MooingDuck What would that be good for? The question would be closed within minutes, because it would get way too big.
 
18 chapters, and the first mention of the standard library is on chapter 17 => BAD.
2
 
@Drise Muuuuch nicer on the eyes.
 
8:42 PM
@sehe Amazon "search inside" is neat.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes WTF. Did you download it off UseNet or something
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh dear.
> Renowned author team Nell Dale and Chip Weems are careful to include all topics and guidelines put forth by the ACM/IEEE.
 
Chapter 18 is "Recursion" for some reason.
 
I didn't know that the IEEE was such a big authority on C++.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes it never ends, that chapter does
 
8:43 PM
> Ethics and Responsibilities in the Computing Profession
Ahahahaha.
 
So, it's a book on software engineering with some C++ thrown in?
 
"Syntax Templates" sounds scary and not related to templates at all.
@EtiennedeMartel It has a page on piracy, so it must be awesome.
 
#define c std::cout
int main(int a,char**b){return(((((a==1)?100:(a-1))+((((a==1)?100:(a-1
))==1)?0:main((a==1)?100:a-1,b)))%3==0)?c<<"\106\151\172\172\40":(((a
==1)?100:(a-1))%5==0)?c:c<<((a==1)?100:(a-1)))<<((((a==1)?100:(
a-1))%5==0)?"\102\165\172\172":"")<<"\n",0;}
 
It has string in the third chapter, it'd seem.
Maybe it's just silly and not utterly terrible.
 
However, the book @sehe linked considers arrays as something to learn "later in the course", and that's a good point.
 
8:47 PM
That awkward moment where d deletes your chat message instead of editing
 
Why are functions in chapter 8 and not at the beginning.
 
@CatPlusPlus Because it sucks.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yup
@CatPlusPlus Because main is magic
 
Yay, user-defined types, and then typedef.
"Simple versus structured data types" what.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes anyways: liveworkspace is back up
(so is twitter)
 
8:48 PM
"Records (structs)" lol.
Okay, it's a terrible book.
And I'm just reading a TOC.
 
lol
 
@CatPlusPlus Yup, that's what I read too.
 
Hierarchical Records
 
I don't understand why some languages call structs records
 
What the fuck is that.
 
8:48 PM
probably one struct inside another?
 
@n2liquid Because they can call them whatever they want.
 
SKILLZ
 
> The ordering of the book is one thing that may throw some people off, however. Arrays are introduced surprisingly late, and classes are introduced earlier than I have ever seen in a c++ textbook.
 
@CatPlusPlus so why Records and not Unicornsex?
 
8:49 PM
Record and struct are both ancient terms.
 
@n2liquid Coming from 80's, showing the signs. 'Random Access Files' where all the rage for data storage. Fortran, Cobol, Pascal: every language had to have Records. I wouldn't be surprised if the book was simply adapted from another language?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Amazing, in a way
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes, Sounds like the one we used. OOP chapter 3 (after basic math/input/output/if) and arrays chapter 7
 
basic math? I do hope x = x + 3; doesn't count as 'math' for you
 
> Additionally, the STL libraries are barely touched on except for <vector> and <string>, but I guess, like us, that can be saved for a later course. Overall, I highly recommend this book for learning purposes, but eventually get a second reference.
Hmm.
That was quite a nice review, though.
 
Beginners should stay away from arrays and pointers.
 
8:51 PM
@sehe I mean, I know those languages called that records, but records kind of sound like something database-specific; a struct is not necessarily a record.. They must have named that coming from a practical perspective in which the structure was like.. an address book record (classic example of struct)
 
@n2liquid And that's where it came from.
 
Filesystem is a database.
 
but it doesn't really make sense for everything, so it sounds a bit funny.. and off
 
@n2liquid Try programming for a system with 64kb of RAM. You'll appreciate the need for a database to store your structs pretty quick
@n2liquid How old are you :)
 
@sehe Take a guess? :D
 
8:52 PM
20
 
cheater
 
It's allowed
 
I was going to tell you it wasn't, but ok..
 
And you have purple hair like a mob. Case closed
 
Maybe we should try to write that awesome C++ book after all.
 
8:53 PM
so how do I make proposals to the C++ spec? I found typos.
 
@MooingDuck I think you file defects reports for things like typos
 
Typos count as defects, not proposals.
 
but I've used some Basic before, and I think they used "records" too
 
@Insilico where?
 
@CatPlusPlus You can propose more typos, obviously
 
8:54 PM
Proposing typos probably won't fly.
 
@n2liquid Basic had no such thing, AFAIR. Perhaps one of the many dialects (PowerB, QuickB, VisualB, TurboB whatnot)
 
Make an actual proposal with typos in it!
 
@MooingDuck That Google Group they made or Usenet list is probably the easiest way.
 
@MooingDuck You can probably just email one of the committee members and ask
 
comp.std.c++ IIRC.
 
8:55 PM
Contact the editor.
 
Pete Becker, still?
 
@sehe Yeah, it wasn't pure basic... in fact, I believe it was PureBasic.. and some other "game programming" languages like DarkBasic..
 
@n2liquid Hah. pure basic != PureBasic.
 
@Insilico :D
 
@sehe I think it's Stephanus.
 
8:56 PM
Dutoit?
 
From the looks of it, you can just fork the draft on GitHub and make a pull request. Yay.
@sehe Yeah.
 
You can still buy PureBasic for only € 79
Gee I remembered a name. This calls for a celebration.
People, I'm buying!
 
lolol
 
@sehe What do I get for € 79 with PureBasic?
 
@Insilico The wizardly ability to write computer programs
 
8:59 PM
Quite a shame to waste it all on ... BASIC :)
 
That's actually not bad
 
All the energy/effort: they have a Linux/Windows/MacOS IDE.
 

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