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16:00
GLM Y U DOCS SUCK SO MUCH
@KonradRudolph It's makes the education worse, not the teacher.
@Xaade Funding is not only the teacher's pay. The school's infrastructure and especially its ecosystem is equally important.
@Xaade It makes teachers perform better. Regardless of the teacher’s inherent talent or education.
My point is that the value of education is primarily decided by the people.
Anybody here is good with artificial neural network? :(
16:01
And yes, higher pay makes them better. Better education makes them better too, look at Scandinavia, where all teachers, even Kindergarten teachers have a Master's degree.
@DeadMG Ever worked with Parsing Expression Grammars? (I might have asked that before)
@ScottW :(
@ALOToverflow that's a broad field
@KonradRudolph If you can't fire a teacher, education will never improve. You could increase the budget a hundred fold, but if no one cares, then education stays the same. Students fail even with a golden toilet.
I'm trying to use the fann library (leenissen.dk/fann/wp) and don't quite understand the result I get.
16:02
@KonradRudolph No. Apparently Boost.Spirit is PEG, I think, but I always used LALR(1).
Maybe tests scores will improve slightly, but that's only due to the small percentage of student's that have the initiative to teach themselves.
@Xaade You're great at pulling arguments out of their applicable context.
And the US national test system sucks too.
@rubenvb How is that not applicable.
@Xaade “if you can’t fire a teacher” – this is something we can agree on (albeit in less radical terms than expressed by you). But then why not push a policy to make teachers fire-able?
Topic education. My reasoning, teachers can't be replaced. My argument, without being able to replace teachers, we can't generate incentive to perform. Teacher's underperforming results in bad education.
16:03
@Xaade you're talking about increasing funding by 100x, while @Konrad is merely remarking that if teachers' pay is cut in half, they will experience demotivation beyond anything.
@DeadMG Shoot. I could use some help there again ;)
lol
@rubenvb From personal experience ... unmotivated teachers are never motivated by anything.
@KonradRudolph You could try @sehe. He's the local Spirit expert.
@rubenvb Actually, I didn’t remark this at all. And while there is some truth in that, in reality payment is a notoriously bad incentive for jobs such as teaching
16:04
You can't make a teacher who hardly knows math teach better with motivation.
Quality of the person.
@Xaade but motivated teachers can be demotivated.
It's true, Idiots teach idiots
I do agree teachers should be fireable.
The unfireable law is something beyond me.
@DeadMG +1 for PEG. Though I readily admit I don't really care what it is called, as long as I can make it work :)
@rubenvb That's true. But from experience.... good teachers are there to teach regardless of the pay. Bad teachers just want to keep their job and perform bad regardless of the pay. On paper funding looks like a solution, on the ground in the field, funding does nothing.
16:05
@Xaade Ask yourself why they are unmotivated. You come off as extremely judgemental and – pardon the frankness – quite a bit ignorant. If you knew why these people were demotivated (and they have millions of very good reasons) perhaps you would be a bit more empathic. In reality, very few people are lazy slobs for no reason
Education is like diffusion. Though you do get a few teachers who are more like active transport
Neocons routinely fail to account for external circumstances and always over-estimate drastically how much influence a person has on their own life
@KonradRudolph I would if I could.
@Xaade I never said funding was a solution. I said cutting funding is bad.
@KonradRudolph I'm ignorant. Me.... I went to over 5 highschools with radically different funding. Exchange student once. I can say with experience funding changes little.
16:07
eh
in my experience, the demotivation of modern children has obvious sources
@Xaade So you were a teacher. right?
that is, education by classroom is vastly inferior to education by internet
@Xaade That’s absolutely not what I meant. But you show yourself ignorant of the conditions these teachers have to cope with, by accusing them roundly as lazy and stupid
@ALOToverflow You were a politician right? I mean otherwise you wouldn't have good policies in mind?
@DeadMG vastly different
16:08
@DeadMG for some. I personally enjoy classrooms, but only with less than 20 students for a teacher.
@KonradRudolph I'm not accusing all teachers as lazy and stupid.
well, TBH, it's obvious why
@Xaade Not all, but a lot of them which aren’t
@Xaade You are accusing most. Or at least a third, which isn't a minority.
@KonradRudolph His argument sounds to me like he is saying some teachers are teachers even though they don't care about teaching
16:08
if you educate by internet, then you can take whatever topic you want, at whatever level you want, at whatever time you want
at least not inherently, without reason
@thecoshman Of course they are. Some teachers are teachers because it's a job and they need money.
@DeadMG and most people would not care enough to bother at all.
Matter of fact, it tends to be by school basis. I think the result of a bad hiring policy from a Principal with no experience hiring.
@rubenvb I don't think that's true at all.
16:09
@rubenvb That's not true. I said that if a teacher is lazy and stupid, funding won't change that, and we can't hire them.
@thecoshman Even if that were true (and it may be, sometimes – but certainly not in the majority of cases) you can still give them a reason to care. Motivation.
@KonradRudolph No you can't. Teaching is a profession where caring is a matter of the heart. You either have a good teacher or you don't.
@KonradRudolph sure you can often through a load of money and make a bad teacher try. But if you are needing to do that, the teacher is probably just bad.
You can't motivate someone to care about others with more money.
@Xaade That's BS. <-- my opinion.
@Xaade no one said that (I think)
16:10
A good teacher cares, not about the money but about the good they are doing
@rubenvb But a good teacher cares about others.
That's the inherit thing you can't change that determines the value of a teacher, if they care about their students.
and lets just be clear, some teachers care and are bad teachers, and some bad teachers still care. (I see a gant chart in my future)
@Xaade You treat the ability to teach as an inherent talent. That’s only true to a very limited extent. And most teachers are teachers by vocation: think about it, the job is severely underpaid and unthankful (most of the students, and even more parents hate you). You study to become a teacher because you want to.
The motivation is there
Not per se. A good teacher might just like explaining things over and over, and be good at it. He can still not care a damn about what his/her students accomplish later (because in truth, it's completely out of his hands)
@thecoshman Yes. Indeed.
"A good teacher might just like explaining things over and over" Sounds boring.
16:13
@RMartinhoFernandes I think it is, actually.
@thecoshman Then make them better. It’s not once bad, always bad.
@RMartinhoFernandes sounds like a bad teacher to me
@KonradRudolph indeed, but just throwing money at it dose not solve the problem
Like criminals. Sentence teachers to triple life of reteaching.
@thecoshman you can't deny the fact teachers explain the same thing each year, multiple times.
@thecoshman “just throwing money at it” – where did I claim that? I claimed that underfunding makes things worse!
throw money at it by financing education material, further education for teachers, extra-curricular activities, smaller classrooms
all these things, even if they existed, get scratched once you cut money
@KonradRudolph This I like.
16:15
Smaller classrooms is probably the most effective of all those.
Xeo
Xeo
Anybody got VS2005 installed?
@RMartinhoFernandes don't forget to keep your teachers up to date.
@rubenvb oh yeah, they often do teach the same material ever year. I meant that just waffling in front of a class is not a great way to teach
@Xeo: Yes. @Konrad: Are you still a linux programmer?
@RMartinhoFernandes Depends on the mode of teaching. In the conventional frontal-mode teaching, yes. But in individualised teaching the size of the classroom is much less important
@JohnDibling Was I ever?
16:16
@thecoshman you didn't read what came after the quote by @RMartinhoFernandes, did you :P
Xeo
Xeo
@JohnDibling k, I'll come back to that in a second
@KonradRudolph It reduces the amount of time available to each student.
@Konrad: I just read this: stackoverflow.com/a/24119/241536. Was that not your post?
@RMartinhoFernandes If organised properly, students can help each others, teachers are only needed to initiate the class, for supervision and some limited control
In fact, this is a much more effective way of teaching
@rubenvb I took it to mean for the students, as it is a bad way to teaCH
16:17
@John Oh, true. But I’m usually on a Mac, not Linux
THE INTERNETS ARCHIVE ALL THE THINGS PORN
@KonradRudolph :o
@JohnDibling I was briefly on Linux when writing this answer though
@Konrad: Gotcha.
I ask because I am, after many years of kicking and screaming, finally coming to terms with the idea that I need to get good at Linux.
@KonradRudolph Hmm, you're probably right.
16:19
@John Sounds like a good idea
in fact, that's exactly how I learned C++
And I'm shopping IDEs, but then your post made me realize the likely reason why all Linux IDEs suck.
@JohnDibling Eclipse is the only one I know of, I think
and why is that?
Which is, all the Linux gurus are toolchain guys (right?), so nobody spends any effort/money on good ides there.
16:20
Codeblocks, Qt Creator, KDevelop do not suck per se.
Eclipse doesn't if you like the ecosystem (I don't)
@John On Mac you have Xcode for development which is a modern IDE with a kick-ass GUI that comes for free
@rubenvb: Perhaps "suck" was a bit strong, but they are not VC.
… I never use it :D
@Konrad: On Mac, are you a toolchain guy?
@JohnDibling I personally don't see why VS is so damn good. Maybe I'm too stupid to see why.
16:21
for what little C++ dev I did on linux, I found Gedit with a few plugins was very good
@JohnDibling That’s the upshot, yet.
@JohnDibling What do you mean with "toolchain guy"?
one of those plugins was ofc a terminal
@rubenvb: It's ultra powerful. Might not look it from the surface, and there is a long learning curve. But I can make VC do just about anything, in seconds.
@rubenvb VS is a pretty excellent IDE. The actual quality of cl and link is questionable, but as an IDE, I like VS.
16:23
VS's build/project management system sucks.
it's highly untransparent
I really hated the way VS has so many nice features for C# that could work with C++ but they just hadn't done the config files etc. to set it up
VS supports VsVim/ViEmu, so it's demonstrably good.
and utterly unportable.
any ways, home time for me
have a good weekend all :D
@rubenv: By "toolchain guy" I mean someone who uses the terminal, a dedicated debugger, and a text editor, all seperately.
16:24
@rubenvb It's the Windows IDE for Windows. It's not supposed to port to anything except Windows.
@JohnDibling oh, cause "toolchain" usually just denotes compiler+linker+debugger+system libs+object file tools.
@rubenv: the project management system in VC is pretty straightforward IMO, and one of the nice things about it is, if you don't like it, you can make it do whatever you want.
@DeadMG Yeah, ok. I don't like that mindset at all.
If you want to use make, you can use make.
@JohnDibling which defeats the purpose of half the dialogs in the IDE.
16:25
@rubenvb Windows users, including developers, prefer something that works than something that is theoretically portable but in reality is so painful as to be nearly unusable
cue makefiles, for example
@DeadMG like MFC? Oh wait, that is buggy and useless
@DeadMG I never said a custom makefile was any good.
@rubenvb Let's be fair, MFC is 20 years old, written to a pre-Standard C++. It's hardly the pinnacle of Windows technology.
@DeadMG ATL then? COM?
@DeadMG Right, because make is younger than MFC.
MFC is also obsolete and not how new code shoudl be writtem, according to microsoft.
16:26
@RMartinhoFernandes You probably win that.
@JohnDibling MS would have everybody write C#.
then why do they ship new sexy Concurrency runtimes for VS 2010 and vNext?
why do they invest in C++11 support and new Intellisense?
hell, it's hardly a complete job, they need many more runtimes, but it's a start
@rubenv: Not true. There is a ton of support & development for C++ in VC.
They might feel that newbies should start with C#. But on Windows, I have no problem with that.
@JohnDibling So you'd say WMF is what a C++ GUI programmer should use? I only read stuff about slow rendering, bad font rendering, etc...
Not just C#, but the .NET languages in general.
16:29
What's WMF?
I meant WPF
Ah, ok. I thought it was some new, even fancier, shit.
@rubenv: I can't really tell you what a Win/GUI programmer "should" use, because I'm mostly a server guy these days. All I know is that nobody should be using MFC for greenfield development.
there's still the Win32 native controls you can use, or render your own in GDI/+ or Direct2D
@RMartinhoFernandes WMF is the Windows Media Foundation, the successor of the old codecs and shit of which I can't remember the right name
oh yes: DirectShow
16:31
@DeadMG: That's generally how I write GUI stuff. Just go right to the metal. When I was a GUI guy, I got so fed up with how big a steaming pile MFC was, I just threw it all away one day.
funny, cause right now I'm doing the exact same thing
Xeo
Xeo
@JohnDibling: Could you please test this snippet with VS2005?
There was no alternative.
need some hardware rendered controls to go with my 3D scenes
@Xeo: Uh, hold. Maybe not. Standby.
16:31
of course, Microsoft don't provide any such and it's been pretty hard to find some that aren't getSingleton() everywhere
1
A: I dont want console to appear when i run c++ program

Cheers and hth. - AlfThere are two ways for a Windows program to produce a console window: The program is linked as a console subsystem exe, which is a request to Windows to always provide an associated console window. The program's code itself creates a console window. The first option, console subsystem, is by ...

^ I wonder what is the right approach to deal with such comments, which just heap wrong assertions upon wrong assertions, like 3 to 5 per comment?
@Xeo Just run it through Dinkum's online compilation service (doing VC8 now, is that the right version?): dinkumware.com/exam/default.aspx
@CheersandhthAlf Kindly comment it is wrong, or ignore
Yes, VC8 is from VS2005.
@Xeo: Sorry, I can't right now. My legacy box is hosed. :(
Xeo
Xeo
@sehe Oh, cool, I didn't know that. Thanks.
16:34
@CheersandhthAlf "STFU you're so stupid it even hurts my ears when I read your comments out loud. And I whisper."
Your code has been compiled with the Microsoft Visual Studio 2005 C++ compiler using
the Dinkum C++ library from the Dinkum Compleat Libraries for VC++ package.

This is the compiler output using the code above in a file named
sourceFile.cpp:

--------------------

sourceFile.cpp

--------------------

size sourceFile.exe :
2048t + 1536 .rdata + 512d = 4096 (1000)

Code compiled successfully!
The executable generated was 5 KB.
@Xeo ^^
Alf, I don't think you understand wtf he's saying
> any argument you may have about the need, falls on the fact that the current API shows how utterly trivial it is to support standard main
he never ever said anything about the current API
his whole damn argument is that the state of the current API is irrelevant as to why WinMain exists
@Xeo Neither did I. Just figured, then googled "vc8 online compile", it was the 6th hit from the top saying Online C++ Compilation Service - Van's House - Site Home - MSDN ...
@sehe Lol, it offers to run it through VC4.
but it is not. the current windows api demonstrates how Microsoft's C runtime lib could have done things properly back then. at less cost.
16:37
@CheersandhthAlf Could have != is relevant.
@Xeo I wondered what the Dinkum Compleat Libraries were.
obviously they couldn't have, either for a practical reason or simply did not think of doing it that way
you cannot design an API in a way that you haven't thought of
@DeadMG Dinkum will be dinkum. So proud of their heritage they forget about the future?
@DeadMG when discussing how the tools could have been, "could have" is clearly relevant. are you dumb?
@CheersandhthAlf Nobody ever said "could have". He only said "was".
16:38
"was" has impact on backward compatibility
and am I dumb?
no, I am obviously not dumb.
you are dog
go take it somewhere else, Alf
@DeadMG no, ok, you're just having a bit of fun. but that guy appears to be serious. or at least serious trolling: he claims to have been on the windows 1.0 team (but has nearly all historical facts wrong)
I'm not gonna help you if you're just gonna spit in my face
16:39
the puppy has an ugly spitwad on his nose
Xeo
Xeo
Okay, now I'm wondering why my code even compiles... I'm basically doing sizeof(void) in an SFINAE context, but the overload doesn't get filtered. The fuck...
Does a decent language need a void type?
unit!
Types with no values are worthless.
@rubenvb Yes.
Types with a single worthless value are useful.
16:43
@rubenvb Depends on whether you regard Eiffel as a "decent language".
I mean, arguably, void's semantics could be improved
but it's most basic concept- a type which means you don't return anything meaningful- is pretty necessary
Can't void be implied in all contexts?
@rubenvb original C did not have void. it did not even have a workaround. Eiffel lacks void and does have a workaround.
there would be no use in a keyword or typename void.
16:48
You mean just f(int); to declare a function that doesn't produce a value?
FWIW Luc has been dying for a void with a single value when messing with tuples.
tuple<int, void, int> doesn't work.
in Pascal you used procedure for that, and function for a routine that did produce a value
yeah, that's my plan
A compiler can deduce the absence of a return value, can't it?
Sure. It can also be a mistake from the programmer.
It depends on easy it is for that mistake to happen in the language.
16:51
That remains to be seen when I get an implementation written :P
17:05
what about std::function<void()>?
deduce that
ugh … reading applied stats papers is sooo dreary :(
@KonradRudolph do they use path integrals?
@DeadMG I wasn't speaking C++.
@rubenvb What about the CTwist equivalent of that?
@rubenvb No … it’s more about fitting background models (priors) and HMMs
Every function is an object, there's no need for std::function.
17:07
but no theory whatsoever, only application
@KonradRudolph Suck to be you ;-)
eh, no biggie. It’s just the topic of my PhD ;)
@rubenvb Missing the point.
And a parameterless function that returns nothing would be written like this: f() { std.io.output "I do nothing but print senseless text to the stdout thing" }
How do you declare a variable of type "function that doesn't produce a value"?
17:08
@rubenvb The one does not eliminate the need for the other.
> Generating and compiling a zillion numerical type aliases, this might take a while
Damn.
"every function is an object" is great for template or metaprogramming-based function abstraction
but std::function is a run-time abstraction
How about somefunctionkeywordthing<()> where the <> are still under debate in their necessity.
unambiguous, AFAICT.
right
that's, honestly, a dumb idea
you've taken one example of where void is necessary and special-cased it out
And resultof<somefunctionkeywordthing<()>> is?
17:10
tomorrow I find another example
what you gonna do now?
special-case every place where it might be useful?
@DeadMG wait till tomorrow, when I have enough info to give a decent answer. I'm not a computer science major (or minor for that matter).
That type will be just ``! (I know Markdown will let me down here).
LETDOWN ALL THE THINGS
The point is, you may not require writing the type in declarations and all, but the type will arguably have to exist in some form. Giving it a name takes pain away from people that need it.
@rubenvb There is no decent answer. You don't need any CS education to know that you can't just go around introducing special language features to compensate for every library need.
17:12
How does Eiffel "work around" that?
Otherwise they'll just work around it with using void = resultof<somefunctionkeywordthing<()>>.
@DeadMG true, I admit not thinking everything through yet. Remember I have no spec, no compiler, no proof-of-concept yet!
heh
I have a bunch of loose ideas
well, let me give you the number one rule of language design
never, ever, ever introduce a language feature you don't have to
17:15
I'm pretty bare now, don't even have pointers or references (must decide how to handle C compat)
eh
I chose to keep both pointers and references
@rubenvb Similar to pascal: functions and procedures are different entities.
@RMartinhoFernandes I kind of meant the no type named void thing.
@rubenvb There's no need. All functions return something.
@RMartinhoFernandes so resultof<someprocedure> would be illegal?
17:17
Pascal doesn't have functions as first class values, so that's not meaningful there. No idea about Eiffel though.
1
Q: A pointer greater than zero in c++, what does mean?

fskkingI encountered a problem in c++. I read some codes,but there was a very wired usage of pointer. The code is following: double* marginalProbability = new double [10 * sizeof(marginalProbability[0])]; memset( marginalProbability, 0, 10 * sizeof(double) ); //................ ...

The code in this question is astounding
like, why would you imagine that worked?
He read some codez
@MooingDuck Sigh, people learning by reading "codes".
argh
VS11, Y U INVOKE SHADER COMPILER :(
@RMartinhoFernandes I just like the "Why doesn't this code work? (of course i changed some unimportant lines)..."
17:23
@DeadMG To compile shaders!
I don't want it to compile my shaders?
will the real slim shader please stand up
> @R. Martinho Fernandes Compiles with gcc as c++....that is with the requisite cleanup (missing ;s, etc)...the only thing that was needed for the malloc line was to add a cast to char*.... – Todd Murray 18 mins ago
@DeadMG Hey, don't look at me.
lol
C code is C++ code. Because the "only thing that was needed for the malloc line was to add a cast to char*"
17:25
hey
I didn't realize that VS11 came with ranged for loops
@DeadMG The beta, yes. They announced it on GN.
@MooingDuck Hmm. The null pointer representation is not required to be zero. Is the null pointer even comparable with < to other pointers?
I have a feeling that code has UB!
@RMartinhoFernandes null pointer is required to be zero in the C++ abstract machine, but not in hardware. But no, you can't compare < with the null pointer.
@MooingDuck No, zero is convertible to a null pointer.
17:32
ah fixedski
The null pointer is not a number.
@RMartinhoFernandes checking if the pointer is null after memset is is probably an indication of UB yes.
the null pointer or the nullptr?
@rubenvb nullptr is a value convertible to a null pointer.
@RMartinhoFernandes yeah. picky picky :D
17:32
@MooingDuck But that's not a check for null!
You can't less-than-compare pointers that are not in the same array.
@RMartinhoFernandes uh, yeah. That too. I confused myself
So foo < 0 is not "a strange check for null", it's UB.
Ah, no, just unspecified.
wiat, __double marginalProbability__ =
new double [10 * sizeof(__marginalProbability[0]__)];, is that UB? but it's in a sizeof....
No, that's ok.
I mean, if you want to allocate probably-80 doubles.
dereferencing a pointer before it's assigned... but it's in a sizeof....
17:35
ARRGGHH
api-ms-win-core-registry-l1-1-0.dll is missing! again!
@MooingDuck Sizeof is a compile-time construct. It doesn't matter if it's been assigned.
Woot, zillion of numeric aliases has been compiled!
I just reinstalled Windows, for fuck's sake, it can't be missing DLLs
@DeadMG you didn't format the hard drive
Is api-ms-win-core-registry-l1-1-0.dll important?
17:37
you failed at reinstalling windows
@RMartinhoFernandes No. It's not even supposed to exist in Windows 7. But for some reason the Direct3D runtime has a dependency on it.
@rubenvb Not necessary.
pft, I just did a google search, and saw someone that has your exact problem! Then I realized... really exact... Oh. It's your question.
huh
@DeadMG I though you were using VS11?
apparently, the ones listed directly in the DX SDK Developer Runtime depend on the proper one
@rubenvb I am.
Then you shouldn't install the DX SDK, as it's already in the Windows SDK included with VS11
too late
17:40
exactly what the dude says in the link on social msdn
you fucked up twice, against previous warning
VS11 doesn't mention that
and also after mentioned that I probably need to reinstall, then that's what I did
starting with Windows 8, buddy, I'm on Windows 7
Windows 8 SDK
"The samples from the June 2010 DirectX SDK are supported with the Microsoft Visual Studio 11 Ultimate Beta, both on Windows 7 and the Windows 8 release itself."
17:42
It's even on the DirectX dev website: msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/directx/aa937781
@DeadMG where do you get that message? dll name is not familiar to me
if the Direct3D libs were the wrong version, they would fail to run
that's what the D3DSDK_VERSION constant is for
> I meant HDD. I need to write to it. Or just if is it possible to do that without standart things for writing to file. – user35443 16 mins ago
Sigh.
besides
oh look, I uninstall it and now it doesn't have the DxErr header
thanks so much for that Microsoft
VeganFanatic (MVP) suggested installing the Windows SDK.
also:
> do not install the old directx sdk's they are deprecated
> its all in the windows sdk now
17:47
Don't take advice from vegans. People that don't eat meat can't be trustworthy.
They're probably aliens.
Ensure that the June 2010 release of the DirectX SDK is installed on your development machine.
right
let's just put that right back then
why on earth did they feel the need to change all of this? it worked fine previously
It was either that, or fixing old bugs.
heh
"Fix bugs or make our users dick around forever?" "Aaah, sod it, make those ugly users do the work."
now it won't even start
sod this, gonna go back to VS2010
it might not have ranged-for or nice nested lambdas, but it works, at least, better than this

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