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1:05 PM
> The weight of the Internet adds up to just about 0.2 millionths of an ounce
dafuq?
 
@CheersandhthAlf Ich sehe
On another note, interesting read (opinion/SO related):
 
@sehe Nothing new there, and it can be applied on almost any form of community website
 
@TonyTheLion The electrons which compose the Internet do have mass. Not much, but some.
considering how incredibly little their mass is, it's very impressive that the Internet weighs 0.2millions of an ounce
 
1:20 PM
@DeadMG If you count the electron's mass, why not the HDD's then, or the server's chassis, or the CPU's? Seems a very arbitrary point to stop
 
they don't compose the Internet, specifically
they only compose general computing resources
 
the electrons don't neither
 
the arrangement of the electrons is what composes the Internet
 
No it isn't
electrons couldn't be stored without RAM or SSD's or HDD's, nor transmitted without cables or routers
 
those do not make the Internet, specifically
they simply make data
 
1:23 PM
you can't say the internet solely consists of the arrangment of electrons, that's just an arbitrary limit
 
if you changed the RAM, you'd still have the same Internet, and we do it all the time
 
the electrons do also
 
if you change the electron arrangement, then you lose data
 
that arrangement simply represents data
but it's not the data itself
 
right
because that thing where if you change it, you change the data, that's not data at all
 
1:24 PM
say what?
 
so you say that your text I just read is directly linked to electrons
the fact that I read it through light waves doesn't matter
no electrons there, however it is the same data
electrons are just a representation, not the intrinsic data itself
 
schrodingers cat?
 
1:28 PM
Never heard of it?
 
NOPE.
 
Schrödinger's cat is a thought experiment, sometimes described as a paradox, devised by Austrian physicist Erwin Schrödinger in 1935. It illustrates what he saw as the problem of the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics applied to everyday objects. The scenario presents a cat that might be alive or dead, depending on an earlier random event. Although the original "experiment" was imaginary, similar principles have been researched and used in practical applications. The thought experiment is also often featured in theoretical discussions of the interpretation of quantum mechanic...
 
ah right
WHY AM I SO GODDAMN LAZY?
4
 
@StackedCrooked lol
 
is it me or is using error codes to signify errors very much a C thing to do?
LOL Epic rage comic :)
 
1:32 PM
@TonyTheLion Exceptions are the winner
 
I know, but I have to use error codes
 
@TonyTheLion C doesn't have exceptions so they haven't got much choice but to use error codes.
 
call your headhunter
 
no, I"m not going to do that
I'm not that desperate for exceptions
 
@DeadMG Sadly enough, when it comes to exceptions I think you narrow down your job choices big time if you demand exceptions to be used.
 
1:36 PM
@DeadMG hasn't any real work experience yet, afaik
 
Both of my Visual C++ 10.0 bug reports yesterday had already been fixed -- for some later version
 
It's like a std::future.
 
Still, it's like STL is the only person Over There working on the standard library
At least, he answered both of them.
 
remember, they licence theirs from Dinkumware
so they probably don't need to do much work on it themselves
 
so what's STL doing then all day?
fapping?
 
1:40 PM
In the past it was said that STL stands for Stepanov and Lee. I think it's funny that today the acronym also refers to person.
 
Yes, but Pete Becker left, so perhaps it's only PJP working at Dinkumware?
Then two persons: PJP writes the original code, and STL fixes it?
 
lulz
> What do you hate the most about the internet?
 
no idea
 
cats...
 
but arguably, it's Dinkumware's problem
 
woah ::)
 
Xeo
@CheersandhthAlf Seems very much like STL's the only guy inside of MS that works on the stdlib. And sometimes I get the feeling that there's also only one guy working on cl...
@StackedCrooked Woah, antique!
 
Yeah.
The end is funny: HP should sell it!
 
Xeo
I like "nice" and "extra nice"
 
sbi
2:04 PM
@StackedCrooked Ugh. He says "template functions", when referring to function templates. That's one of my pet peeves. Bad paper!
 
Lol!
Away with this garbage!
 
sbi
@TonyTheLion It's called lack of motivation. You will have to dig into this, find its root, and do something about it. Otherwise you'll end up badly. No, I'm not joking on this. And I'm not exaggerating either.
 
@sbi yea well, where to start looking?
 
sbi
@KillianDS Don't play it so cool. If this applies to SO as well, this would mean that, someday, we would have to pay for accessing all the effort and knowledge we poured into this community. If this idea isn't frightening to you, you just haven't contributed enough to be frightened.
 
@TonyTheLion behind the sofa?
 
2:08 PM
@jalf win
 
Between the cushions of the sofa.
 
@jalf oh yea, you reminded me, I think I left it there last :P
found my motivation
thanks @jalf :)
 
sbi
 
lol
@StackedCrooked wut? What does porn have to do with my motivation???
see theré's a problem here, if I ever want to show off my SO profile to a future employer, and they look into the transcripts of this room, I'm screwed
cause they will only come to the inevitable conclusion that I'm some kind of sex addict or perv :(
 
Now, you're screwed a little less.
 
sbi
2:12 PM
@TonyTheLion Either you find this out for yourself ("Is what I'm doing really what I want to do?" "If so, what's missing to motivate me?" "How can I get this?"), or you will have to enlist professional help in order to find the problem.
 
@sbi I'd rather find out myself.
 
sbi
@TonyTheLion The other day I thought the very same thing about me. :-/
 
@sbi why would you have to fear anything? You're not the one having sex thrown in his face everytime you say something
 
isn't that true for most of us
 
can't believe I'm listening to the shittiest and cheesiest music ever right now
sucks
 
2:14 PM
@TonyTheLion if anyone ever looks through the transcripts of this room, they're screwed already
 
sbi
@TonyTheLion That's Ok if you find out that way. If not, don't be shy in getting professional help. There's nothing bad about it. And don't wait too long to start searching for it. It can take a while until you found someone whom you trust and who can help you. That might take a lot of energy, which you might not have anymore if you wait too long.
 
@jalf lol
 
sbi
@TonyTheLion Just looking at the amount of time I spent here (and at the timestamps of my messages) would probably make a bad impression about my work motivation. :(
 
@sbi You can explain to them that you wrote the messages while your code was compiling :)
 
@sbi hmmm
 
sbi
2:17 PM
@StackedCrooked I'm writing C# code. That compiles in seconds. :(
 
@sbi C# is a good enough excuse not to be working :P
I was motivated, once upon a time...
then I got my first job...
 
sbi
@TonyTheLion If it helps you dealing with this, I'll freely admit: I have been there, and professional help is what set me on the way back into life.
There. Does the thought feel less bad now?
 
sbi
@TonyTheLion MS massively extends what they get from Dinkumware. I think he's doing most of that work.
 
@StackedCrooked isn't that when you get like heart message?
@EthanSteinberg why don't you stfu and gtfo
 
sbi
2:22 PM
@StackedCrooked Antidepressants and psychotherapy.
 
@sbi but I'm not depressed
 
I bet the problem is that your lifestyle is currently comfortable enough so there's no urgent reason for change.
 
sbi
@TonyTheLion That I don't know. I was talking about me.
 
@sbi ok
@StackedCrooked actually no, it's just that sometimes I don't feel like working.
 
@StackedCrooked somehow, a standard future, it sound unexciting
 
2:24 PM
lol
 
@sehe Indeed.
 
sbi
Also, from what I know there's no hard definition to tell whether you are in a depression or not. There's about a dozen symptoms to tell, and what is usually done is to assess how many of them you have, and how badly. From there your level of "depressiveness" is estimated.
 
Nothing wrong with unexciting :)
 
At least boost::future sounded better.
 
Why doesn't the govt. allow us a 6 month leave twice a year?
 
2:26 PM
@IntermediateHacker hahah :P
actually having nothing to do is also quite boring, I've been there. I was on a sick leave for more than a year
 
@sbi Criteria can be found in DSM IV.
 
not so long ago
 
sbi
@IntermediateHacker My government allows me exactly that. The trouble is those bastards don't pay for it, though.
@StackedCrooked Could well be. It's too long ago and I forgot the acronyms. (Also, they might be different in Germany.)
 
@sbi seriously? you can not work all year and still retain your job?
 
 
sbi
2:27 PM
@IntermediateHacker You didn't say anything about retaining you job, did you?
OTOH, if I found an employer who did this for me, the government would be fine with it, too.
 
damn, people in the country I live in are utter idiots. And if they fail their exams, they start protesting. :(
 
Sry, meant to link to this one:
 
Sometimes I feel good about being only half Arab.
 
^^ The subtle timetravel reference is the kicker there
 
Electroconvulsive therapy (ECT), formerly known as electroshock, is a psychiatric treatment in which seizures are electrically induced in anesthetized patients for therapeutic effect. Its mode of action is unknown. It was first introduced in 1938 by Italian neuropsychiatrists Ugo Cerletti and Lucio Bini, and gained widespread use as a form of treatment in the 1940s and 1950s. In 1938 Dr. Ugo Cerletti became interested that pigs were prepared for slaughter by being electrically shocked through the temples. This rendered them unconscious but did not kill them. Indeed, they could survive ...
 
2:31 PM
That's a condition known as 'cynicism'
 
^ scary, I wouldn't volts going through my brain
 
@TonyTheLion Psychiatrist once told me that he thinks it's an excellent therapy.
All doctors seems to love ECT.
 
@StackedCrooked of course he did, else how could he possibly justify using it?
 
It works and you don't need to mess with medication and their nasty side effects.
 
people have died getting ECT
 
2:32 PM
@sbi Of course it is frightening, and I won't say it's a good thing, far from. I don't have a high rep but I read a lot of questions/answers simply to learn and many times I start an answer and stop in the middle because I'm not 100% sure or someone beat me to it, so I am active enough :). I really like SO and the SO principle (I hated EE everytime I hit it on google). But the fact is that monetizing a community like this is nothing new.
 
Btw, Hollywood's depiction of ECT is not very accurate.
 
@TonyTheLion People have died breathing, and on the toilet, but I still do those things.
 
but somehow this is "ok" because psychiatry apparently knows what they're doing
@DeadMG what kind of logic is that?
 
the kind that points out that yours is nonexistent
 
And that also means you can look at examples that didn't end up with a payed system (e.g. facebook) or a perfectly usable system with free and paid accounts together (e.g. linkedin). While not a QA site, many principles are the same (from an economic point of view).
 
2:33 PM
the fact that someone, somewhere, or even possibly more than one, in seventy years, might have died during a medical procedure is utterly irrelevant and expected.
 
People have died of taking medication and people have died of not taking medication.
 
But I haven't heard of anyone yet who has died f*cking. Guess that's the safest thing to do.
 
@IntermediateHacker It happens. Heart attack!
 
@IntermediateHacker Oh, I have.
 
@DeadMG no, the kind of logic that shows you've never looked into what effects ECT causes on the people getting it, besides the apparent therapeutic effect that it turns a living being into a plant
 
2:34 PM
@TonyTheLion No, I haven't. But you never presented any logical evidence either.
all you asserted is that ECT might have once in possibly more than one person have had a fatal effect
which is a meaningless statement
 
@TonyTheLion next, you'll be saying cutting people up (surgery) is wrong too.
 
sbi
@IntermediateHacker Ha, that reminds me of a story: When I was doing an internship in Portland, OR, in the 90s, in a small company for almost 5 months, I never got to know one of the employees. He was on leave without salary because he made a tour in a sailboat for several months, bringing some rich guy's sailboat down the US west coast and through the Panama channel into the Caribbean.
When I had worked there for several months, and he was expected to be back real soon, he called the boss from the Caribbean, explaining that he had just gotten an offer to sail another boat all the way back, and if the boss would be Ok if he did that. The boss just told him to have a great journey. That guy must have had a year off when he came back.
 
posted on March 02, 2012

Unsigned integer arithmetic is often more useful than signed.

 
@TonyTheLion i think it's worth noting that lobotomization was used because it apparently helped the patients. it was so good, in fact, in the first few years it was used despite 80% of the patients dying from the operation (at one Norwegian hospital). patients were literally scared to death when they understood they were going to be lobotomized, just as women once were scared to death of giving birth in a hospital.
 
@sbi lol, he was lucky.
How do people send RSS Feeds?
 
2:38 PM
^ Noting that in Denmark, young boys at children's homes were lobotomized until the beginning of the 1980's. Their problem: they started masturbating and being overly interested in girls. At puberty.
In this whole mess of health services disregarding reality completely and killing their patients, I think it's worth noting that the only one who at first stood up for women, admonishing doctors to wash their hands, was a Scotsman. If I recall correctly. In France he was a laughing-stock: why, he he, wash hands, how ridiculous...
 
ISTR he was from Eastern Europe.
 
sbi
Ignaz Philipp Semmelweis (July 1, 1818 â€“ August 13, 1865) was a Hungarian physician now known as an early pioneer of antiseptic procedures. Described as the "savior of mothers", Semmelweis discovered that the incidence of puerperal fever could be drastically cut by the use of hand disinfection in obstetrical clinics. Puerperal fever was common in mid-19th-century hospitals and often fatal, with mortality at 10%–35%. Semmelweis postulated the theory of washing with chlorinated lime solutions in 1847 while working in Vienna General Hospital's First Obstetrical Clinic, where doctors' wa...
 
@CheersandhthAlf Not in the 1980s. That was much earlier
 
> The first category, medical and physical risks includes adverse reaction to anesthetic agents and neuromuscular blocking agents, alterations in blood pressure, cardiovascular complications, death, dental and oral trauma, pain and discomfort, physical trauma, prolonged seizures, pulmonary complications, skin burns, and stroke. The other two main categories include cognitive and memory dysfunction, and device malfunction. [...]
 
@sbi Best way to prevent common cold.
 
2:42 PM
side effects of ECT
 
Oh right, different timeline.
 
@CheersandhthAlf hmm? Never heard of that here
 
@DeadMG No, it continued.
 
@CheersandhthAlf wow, bad
 
didn't take long to find at least one google result: news.discovery.com/history/mentally-handicapped-lobotomies.html
 
2:44 PM
// Clever :)
typedef decltype(1000000) million_int;
 
^ but that's not the main story, just one story
 
sbi
@TonyTheLion For one, you need to differentiate between psychiatrists and psychologists. The formers are doctors that will prescribe medicine, ECT, or psychotherapy. The latter are therapists (be wary if not a studied psychologists) who talk to you. (And there a different schools of how they do that and what they aim for.) Then, there are different cures suggested for different problems. You probably wouldn't be prescribed ECT for a slight depressive phase.
So it's not that you go to a psychiatrist for feeling a bit depressed, they prescribe ECT, and BANG!, your brain is fried.
 
Followed by lobotimization.
 
sbi
@IntermediateHacker Can you read this tab as a non-owner?
 
@sbi yes.
 
sbi
2:46 PM
@IntermediateHacker That's where the feeds are set up.
 
@sbi Putting your brain in a microwave owen is probably going to fry it though.
 
@TonyTheLion You can find pro and anti articles on ECT on the internet.
 
sbi
@TonyTheLion Stop posting those links. I am sure anyone of us could find just as many links praising ECT if we just searched for them.
 
@TonyTheLion Everything is going to be just fine
 
@sbi What I see. How do I set up the feeds?
 
2:49 PM
@StackedCrooked I think he's just trying to provoke people. But who cares enough to create an account over at DDJ so that one can answer? Not me.
 
sbi
@IntermediateHacker Through the edit tools on that page which are there for room owners.
 
@CheersandhthAlf Actually I find in my code that most of my ints should actually be unsigned.
 
@sbi damn, so ordinary mortals can't set up RSS Feeds? :'(
 
@StackedCrooked if they're used at bitsets that's a good idea. otherwise not.
 
sbi
@IntermediateHacker They can, but not in this chat.
 
2:51 PM
@CheersandhthAlf I mean function like set_speed(int speed); // number of moves per second. Unsigned is probably a better choice here.
 
I mean, Andrew is a Very Smart Person, but in that article he doesn't offer any logic or fact or number. Just silly association. So I think it's written solely to provoke.
 
@sbi ok links removed
 
@StackedCrooked If you use unsigned then your risk that an incorrect call sets a very high speed. The subsequent correction can come too late. Passengers already dead.
 
@StackedCrooked Be warned that unsigned vs signed is a very old debate.
 
@CheersandhthAlf That's true. I've shot myself in the foot there. But whether you are using signed or unsigned in that situation, wrong code is still wrong code..
 
2:53 PM
On the other hand, when have you felt the need for unsigned double?
 
Yeah, but it's easier to get it right with int. And less work to choose the Right type. Just choose int, that's it. :-)
 
sbi
It's not that you need to remove the links, you need to understand that they have no value.
The point is, antidepressants and other medicines are almost as badly understood as ECT. Nobody understands exactly how they help. Some of them are given based on what's officially called a "paradox reaction." (Like Ritalin actually being an upper, but given to ADHD kids will get them down. Nobody understands why.) And there's thousands(!) of studies what antidepressants do to you when you are not depressive, and it's still non-conclusive.
 
I've been wondering if I need something like Integer<x, y> to represent a number between x and y. It could do runtime checking on assignment.
@sbi We also don't understand how gravity works :)
 
sbi
@CheersandhthAlf So use an unsigned short. Using unsigned if negative values aren't allowed will cut the number of the possible erroneous values into half, though. I hate that C# takes int for everything. Why would I ever want to access an array element at a negative index, if arrays do not support customized index ranges?
 
@sbi The fundamental problem is that we have little idea about how the brain works, exactly, and it appears to be wildly different between people. Beyond the most obvious basics, taking drugs to affect it is just poking it with a chemical stick and recording when you get a positive result, and hoping that the guy you're poking next has a similar reaction.
 
sbi
2:57 PM
@StackedCrooked Ada can do that. You can define data types that cover subranges of the possible values of other data types. A handy feature, I think.
@StackedCrooked Yeah, but in general we don't try to apply gravity as a cure. :)
 
@sbi "Using unsigned if negative values aren't allowed will cut the number of the possible erroneous values into half" No. E.g. the range of valid speeds remains the same.
 
@StackedCrooked we have a very good working model of how gravity works. We can't explain it, but we can predict it very reliably
less so with the brain. :)
 
BRAIN ALL THE THINGS
 
@sbi I remember first writing a Tetris game in C++ many years ago. I decided to use unsigned to represent x-y positions of the blocks. Then I had this strange bug where sometimes blocks disappeared when I move a little to far to the left. It was my first shot in the foot using unsigned integers.
 
I hereby have nothing more to say about the brain, ECT or depression.
 
3:00 PM
@sbi because it's easier to assert that the value is positive, than that the value didn't underflow? ;)
 
so with an unsigned, it may be harder to detect errors
note the may, depends on context obviously :)
 
Right. The value is still invalid to begin with.
 
@StackedCrooked lol
 
sbi
@DeadMG Oh, we do have models of the brain well enough to know that Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors often help against depression. It's just that nobody knows why they do that. :) In that it's pretty similar to gravity: That, too, is predictable, though nobody knows why it reacts in a certain way.
 
3:01 PM
Whether it's achieved by a literal or arithmetic it's too late for the type to rescue anything.
 
the difference is that every particle doesn't behave differently, and every brain does
 
sbi
@CheersandhthAlf There's many cases where greater values will not do any serious harm (the NPC will just move very fast :^)), while negative values will simply crash the software.
@DeadMG Every universe behave differently.
 
we only live in one, though :P
 
@jalf I think everyone should know the trick of asserting the range [0...n) by converting to unsigned. But. That's just optimization. The main issue is implicit promotion. It does harmful things.
 
the brains behaviour is undefined :P
 
sbi
3:04 PM
@StackedCrooked And if your coordination system was centered on the screen, and negative values where meaningful — wouldn't the ability to move a sprite too far to the left do damage then, too?
 
ouch - had an ugly bug with a memory pool (I think I have to rename all my classes that use a memory pool with some special designation - to avoid any kind of cleanup, including std::unique_ptr())
luckily, was not too hard to isolate with a lot of unit-testing/frequent git check-ins
 
@kfmfe04 I personally just return raw pointers
 
sbi
@jalf Everyone looking at a function taking an unsigned int will know that negative values aren't allowed. If I have a function that takes a std::size_t I know what to expect when I pass it a -1. ("It might blow into my face" is a common possibility.) If the same function takes an int, I just have to hope it's well documented.
Every time one my students wrote the operator[]() of their string class to take an int, I cringed.
 
"Unsigned types are useful for poorly documented APIs" is not an argument I find compelling.
 
my passport is unsigned
3
 
sbi
3:08 PM
@LucDanton Self-documenting code is a very compelling argument in my book.
 
I don't think I've ever written a bit of code where the full range of std::size_t is valid.
 
sbi
@LucDanton How many bits of code have you written where the full range of long is valid?
 
@sbi But that's not my argument, it's yours. I don't use arithmetic types as documentation.
I fully expect void foo(int); to be useless without documentation, yes. And I consider that void foo(unsigned); isn't an improvement.
 
@DeadMG in my app, I just use std::unique_ptr<> for almost all my classes. For a select few, I use boost's memory pool, because I'm allocating a gazillion objects and I want them to go away all at once. Unfortunately, if I stuff the latter in a std::unique_ptr<>, I am hosed - I think I'll rename all those classes this weekend...
 
no
 
3:11 PM
@sbi Yes it would also have been an error.
 
you just need to use unique_ptr<T, std::function<T*>>
then you can give it a unique_ptr<T, no_destruction>
 
sbi
@LucDanton Shrug. Well, I do.
 
@sbi Why is foo(-1) an 'obvious' error by the way, since -1 will in fact convert to a correct unsigned value?
 
sbi
Peas in this room, please.
 
@LucDanton It's half as confusing.
 
sbi
3:13 PM
@LucDanton Because you know that -1 will not be a negative value when foo() takes an unsigned.
 
@DeadMG what is a unique_ptr<> that doesn't cleanup after itself good for? I'm a bit confused...
 
well, that's your own fault, TBH
T* vs unique_ptr<T> is a perfectly type-safe way of indicating which pointers need cleaning up
 
@sbi Yeah, I do know that. How often can an API make use of foo(UINT_MAX) still?
 
if you don't want to have to abstract it at run-time, then use the existing compile-time distinction
@LucDanton 32bit DWORD colour values.
 
sbi
What do you expect the difference between foo(T&) and foo(T*) to be? For me, it's that the latter can be passed a NULL. That does not mean that any other values I pass to the former are valid, but it does document the intention of foo(T&) insisting of being passed a value, while foo(T*) might be called when you don't have a value. The same goes for foo(unsigned int) and foo(int).
 
3:16 PM
Obviously unsigned types don't hold negative values but by the nature of arithmetic types and their operations you're fucked either way once you compute an undesirable value.
@sbi That does reduce e.g. cyclomatic complexity in the reference/pointer case but whether an interface accepts int or unsigned if there's even the possibility of computing an incorrect value then you have to check that. Just passing the value to the interface taking unsigned doesn't solve the problem.
On the other hand once you get a hold of a reference you're good to go.
Does this make sense?
 
@sbi regarding to T& vs T*, the latter also can mean that it's mutable pointer value, not (only) nullable.
 
sbi
@Abyx ??
 
I'd like to point out that modular arithmetic is also possible with signed types, if you want that. Obviously it doesn't happen around 0 unless you make it happen though.
 
@sbi I mean that rule "always use T& x instead of T* x if x can't be NULL" is wrong, because you can use T* just to have mutable x.
> the difference between foo(T&) and foo(T*) to be? For me, it's that the latter can be passed a NULL
 
3:22 PM
@Abyx The callee can just make another reference if it needs one...
 
you know, I've just realized..... I've spent the entire day writing complex combinations of words & characters to create a specific sequence of coloured pixels on a screen. I feel so useless. -_-
 
sbi
@Abyx Yeah. And you can also pass references to dynamically allocated objects, and then invoke delete &x. So? It just proves you don't know C++ well enough if you do this.
61
A: How to pass objects to functions in C++?

sbiMy rules of thumb: Pass per const reference, except when they are to be changed inside the function and such changes should be reflected outside, in which case you pass per non-const reference the function should be callable without any argument, in which case you pass per pointer, so that u...

 
The only case where you can mutate x to an interesting value that is not nullptr is when it's an iterator. Then obviously references are not an alternative.
 
@IntermediateHacker Tell that to the massive amount of money the games industry makes every year
 
In any case an interface shouldn't be picked to make the callee's life easier...
 
3:26 PM
damn, I hate f*cking Cambridge. They're conspiring against me. :'(
 
Bob
When you digitally sign some of your content, do you use your private key to "lock" the content? In what way and how do people with the public key validate that it must be sent from the authenticated user...like what do they check against?
 
@sbi Heh, is this the right time to dump literature?
 
I don't think that T* xPtr = &x; looks like a good code.
 
sbi
@Bob I've never digitally singed any of my content. I was born with it, and so far nothing ever got lost.
@LucDanton I've added a short version. I happen to very much agree with that, and it directly contradicts your statement I posted that as a reply to.
 
Bob
3:29 PM
I am not going to do it with my content either but I want to understand in general how it works
 
@sbi I don't think it does. I think it goes in the same direction.
 
sbi
@LucDanton Sorry. I misread you. I read "caller", where you wrote "callee."
 
oh cupcakes
 
@sbi The original is pretty short as well.
 
damn Cambridge! they've changed the regional headquarters. Now I have to go to another country in April till June. for the exams. :'(
 
3:31 PM
@Bob They use the key that is available to them (putting aside which one is which for a moment). They use it to obtain the digest of the content, and check e.g. that its hash is the same as the one that came with the content (both hash and key make up the signature to go with the content).
 
life sucks doesn't it, when you get to travel?
 
@TonyTheLion yeah, especially if you have to go back to a war-torn country you thought you had escaped for good. -_-
 
Whether the key that is available to everyone is referred to as the public key or private key in the traditional encryption scheme (i.e. send a message to someone) I can't exactly recall right now, but I have a feeling that it's the 'private' one.
 
Bob
@LucDanton I am not sure if I got that: how do you obtain a digest of the content?
 
You use the key to 'encrypt' the content. The result is the digest. The hash part is to make it easier as it's more compact to package (content, key, digest-hash) rather than (content, key, digest).
The authenticity is asserted because for an attacker to provide his or her own hash (and content to go with) he or she would need the other key that is not available. Or of course compromise the encryption scheme. Or hashing scheme.
 
Bob
3:37 PM
ah right:)
 
bye all. I've got to sulk and ponder the secrets of the universe now. :'(
 
The Luxembourg Army is the national military of Luxembourg. Luxembourg has no navy, as the country is landlocked, or air force, although it does have aircraft. The Luxembourg Army was integrated into the Force Publique (Public Force) which included the Gendarmerie and the Police. The Gendarmerie was merged into the Grand Ducal Police in 2000. The army has been an all-volunteer force since 1967. It has a current strength of approximately 450 professional soldiers, 340 enlisted recruits and 100 civilians, and a total budget of $369 million, or 0.9% of GDP. The army is under civilian co...
^ Funny :)
 
Whoah, that's a lot of money per soldier.
 
Bob
So when the encryption of the content is hashed, you get a shorter string. However, how do you at the other end know if the sender was the correct? You have the public key but how do you apply that?
 
@IntermediateHacker oh, now that sucks
 
3:40 PM
The Swiss Armed Forces perform the roles of Switzerland's militia and regular army. Under the country's militia system, professional soldiers constitute about 5 percent of military personnel; the rest are male citizen conscripts 19 to 34 (in some cases up to 50) years old. Because of a long history of neutrality, the army does not take part in armed conflicts in other countries, but takes part in peacekeeping missions around the world. The structure of the Swiss militia system stipulates that the soldiers keep their own personal equipment, including all personally assigned weapons, at ...
 
@Bob You're right, I'm missing a step I think. I think you should check literature (Wikipedia will have some info, too), it's been too long since I've delved into crypto.
 
@LucDanton Nearly 1 million per soldier.
 
Bob
@LucDanton Ok, no problem:) Thank you
 
@StackedCrooked They could send them on a vacation away each year.
 
Bob
@LucDanton I am just curios to know how digitally signing of applications in for example app store works
 
3:42 PM
@LucDanton And save ...millions!
 
@Bob It's something worth knowing, I'd expect it's the same scheme or line of schemes that allow you to use your credit card on the Internet!
@StackedCrooked No, I mean they could afford it easily with that money!
 
Bob
@LucDanton Do you know why VeriSign etc is needed? I read something about that but I didn't understand it
 
@Bob That's because in the current state of affairs the problem of authentication is not solved. The next best thing we have is public key infrastructure.
We have super strong encryption schemes but in the end protocols are vulnerable to man-in-the-middle unless there's a shared secret or they rely on that infrastructure.
There are however very smart ways to construct shared secrets out of an initial shared secret that still guarantee forward obscurity or whatever it's called. That's the extent of my knowledge though.
 
Bob
But aren't public keys all that is shared?
maybe I am not following you
 
kka
Hello - I'm building a software that is supposed to run on ARM devices, I've bought PandaBoard ES, as a development and testing hardware. My dev box is a windows box (x86) with visual studio (and of course msvc).
Now, my question is: what linux distribution you would recommend for my set of requirements: I need linux to compile linux-arm-specific binaries and run them
 
3:49 PM
@Bob They're not secret :) Sorry, I misunderstood.
 
kka
I don't need a GUI
 
Bob
Do they need to be secret?
 
@Bob The authentication problem is: where do you get someone's public key?
 
kka
all I need is a set of compilers and preferably a terminal server, so that I could logon from my devbox to that development board
 
If you have someone's public key you're guaranteed you can send an encrypted message only they can decrypt (with reasonable resources). If.
 
Bob
3:51 PM
If I did not know better I would say: I would ask for it
 
@Bob Then someone else than who you intended answers and gives you their key. Then any message you encrypt with that key only they can decrypt.
That's the authentication problem in a nutshell :)
 
Bob
@LucDanton Could you explain the last comment a little better? Sorry
 
Where's the problematic part?
 
Bob
I do not understand these sentences: Then someone else than who you intended answers and gives you their key. Then any message you encrypt with that key only they can decrypt.
Ah! I think I got it
 
Okay. If you ask someone for their key, what guarantee do you have that the answer you received did in fact come from the intended party?
 
Bob
3:54 PM
Yup, understood the problem
 
kka
Bob - in a PKI infrastructure, asymmetric encryption is used. Asymmetric encryption is a kind of encryption where data encrypted with one key could be decrypted only with a corresponding key that is generated in the same time. What that means is that having only one of the two keys will let you only encrypt a certain data
and that means that sharing only one of the two keys is not a security risk - it's encouraged and required.
Luc Danton - That's a solved problem
 
@kka Authentication is not solved, no.
 
Bob
@LucDanton You can fool someone to encrypt their content and then send it to the reciever which they think is the correct person, but in reality that person could be a pirate:) Is that correct
 
@Bob Yes.
 
kka
When you're asking for that key, that key usually comes signed using that party's certificate
 
3:57 PM
@kka Where do you get the certificates from?
 
kka
so before using the received key, first validate it's signature and then use it if signature matches
 
8 mins ago, by Luc Danton
We have super strong encryption schemes but in the end protocols are vulnerable to man-in-the-middle unless there's a shared secret or they rely on that infrastructure.
 
kka
@Luc
 
(where 'infrastructure' was referring to PKI.)
 
kka
*sorry, the certificates (their public keys) are shared once you establish an agreement with that party
and that certificate could be signed with another Certificate Authority that you either trust or not.
 
Bob
3:58 PM
@LucDanton But if that would be a problem then it means that the place where the sender sends the encrypted message is also hijacted?
 
So I have to trust the CA. Trusting means no authentication. QED.
 
kka
so just following the certificate chain could give you a reasonable degree of confidence that the received public key is belonging to the person that claims to own it.
No - trusting does not mean no authentication.
 
@Bob Well if someone has got hold of the private key then all bets are off. Is that what you were referring to?
 
kka
it's delegating authentication
 

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