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15:00
So, basically, you are saying the kind of design stuff in spirit's parse expression leads to them not being able to do anything useful with their expressions, barring UB?
except pass them in as function arguments
and obviously rule's operator= counts in this regard
@DeadMG aha... the 'end of full expression' thing.
Yeah. That looks valid. Does require pointers I suppose. Thinking some more about references since
damn!
I seem to have an old version of my grammar and I didn't commit some changes
how did that happen?
I don't know.
oh well
I'll just have to fix it up at some point
15:04
... since I don't think I saw any raw pointers in Spirit (some in fusion adaptors though, and obviously phoenix is interested in function pointers sometimes)
the latest Order of the Stick is hilarious
0
Q: C/C++: Is it undefined to form a pointer range from a stack address?

Channel72Some C or C++ programmers are surprised to find out that even storing the address of an invalid pointer is undefined behavior. However, for heap or stack arrays, it's okay to store the address of one past the end of the array, which allows you to store "end" positions for use in loops. But is i...

I don't know what to make of this.
'ello folks
Loving vim and SSH.
the smart thing to do
check specification into your source control
@DeadMG & @Abyx: well I just read all of the comments in boost-spirit.com/home/articles/qi-example/… and it appears you both are simply right :) Learnt something today.
Apparently proto is swimming treading the edges in the name of performance.
@Moshe +1
15:14
@sehe On Google, you +1 things, here, you star em' ;-) But thanks!
There was the Circle of Life, and now there's the Circle of Dirtiness.
'well, I'm going to go and take another examination
goodbye everybody
@Moshe on google, I search things. Here, I'm too lazy to type "Hear, hear!"
@DeadMG Good luck.
thanks
15:34
@DeadMG GL HF
finally a found a third tear of table flipping rage
http://i.imgur.com/T7iUn.gif
@thecoshman tear-off? tier of?
¬_¬ tier
damn words with their sounding like words that are not the one I want
Don't worry, you'll get the hang of it.
Even though there's a zillion of them: My blog post on using VIM
15:47
@EtiennedeMartel rofl
@Moshe bd!|q
16:03
@Moshe Me too I once edited an email response into my very first blog post once. I lost the blog (never made a second post anyway), but my first post was about vim: sehe.nl/ShavingYacs.eml.html
@Moshe There, a bit of the surrounding text salvaged too: blog.sehe.nl/blog/seminal.html (meaning, I never clean out my webserver)
hey all you know how they have books that tailored towards design patterns, such as template, decorator, factory, etc. What good book focuses on programming logic, such as mathematical computation within programming context and dealing with complex conditionals?
complex conditionals?
The ones that are unconditionally complex.
void f(const std::complex<double>& condition)
{
     if (condition)
          std::cout << "hello world" << std::endl;
}
user784668
This condition is too complex.
16:10
@Fanael Oh, that's just the imaginary part
@JohnMerlino I'd look for algorithm design (graph algorithms fit your description), numerical recipes (that's a book title) and of course the Knuth
yeah algorithms is what i meant to say
@JohnMerlino Also, Polya 'Solve It' is nice for methodological thinking towards solutions on new problems. There must be similar titles, but amazon will tell you
I believe Skiena is rated high
Unfortunately haven't read it myself
@JohnMerlino For patterns books, look for the Java room. For no patterns and no computer science, look for the Php room.
php is terrible i am ware of that
i dont like procedural programming
lol
user784668
@JohnMerlino No, C++ is terrible.
user784668
16:16
PHP is way worse than that.
@Fanael Both C++ and PHP are terrible.
For various values of "terrible".
user784668
let terrible = 5 in {- ... -}
But PHP usually runs remotely so you can't hear the CPU scream
@Fanael is that WideLanguage?
user784668
@sehe Haskell.
16:17
@John But you can see it die
user784668
I don't know what WideLanguage is.
@Fanael ask @DeadMG when he's back from exams ( ohai )
user784668
Yet another funky language that nobody needs?
user784668
Awesome.
user784668
Frankly, that's not that much different from what I'm doing now, sssshhhh...
16:25
@Fanael what's that? You working on that polyglot implementation of brainfuck?
user784668
Polyglot implementation of brainfuck?
7 hours ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
Wow http://code.google.com/p/awib/.
@sehe wtf. My brain just got fucked.
It wasn't me
Could C++, if remodeled in and out, live without pointers and references (and just keep one), and still be equally powerful and a bit easier to use?
^ Strange question, I know.
16:30
it can't live without pointers
as without mutable variables.
they solve pretty different problems
what if references could be reseated?
then they'd be pointers without nullness
and add a type nullref :)
@rubenvb i think it can, today. Obviously 'equally powerful' isn't going to fly, though many of the disadvantages have been lifted by move semantics
@rubenvb nullptr_t, nullref_t
Some of the C compat requires pointers. By the way, isn't D an experiment in that direction?
16:33
@sehe but D doesn't have multiple inheritance :(
@rubenvb oh, language dismissed :)
16:47
I realized that you can use a vector<char> like a buffer of bytes. That's it, I'm not using new char[] ever again.
Just now?
Yeah, took me a while.
Actually I discovered that like yesterday.
sheesh
I'm slow sometimes.
is type inference orthogonal to strongly/statically typed or do these compete?
16:57
Inference only applies to static typing.
It's orthogonal to strong/weak typing, though. C++ is weakly typed and has bits of inference. Haskell is strongly typed and completely inferred.
Both use static typing.
Ok, thanks.
Philosophical question: would C++ be strongly typed without casts and void *?
@EtiennedeMartel user-defined conversion operators?
It'd be strongly typed without implicit conversions all over the place.
Casts and void* are not the problem.
17:01
Yeah, I guess conversion operators are fine as long as they're explicit.
NEWSFLASH: GoingNative starts in 30 minutes.
Xeo
Xeo
@RMartinhoFernandes, you here?
0
Q: Inconsistency in my design of C++

EAGER_STUDENTI am currenty doing a Sudoku game in c++. For that , I defined many classes including, class Pos for position, and class Error for maintaining errors. Now, in class Pos, class Pos { int x; int y; public: Pos(); Pos(Pos const&); Pos(int,int); void setPos(int,int);...

You know that feeling when you read a question and you realize that you're going to have to teach C++ to the guy to answer it?
Well, this is one of those times.
Xeo
Xeo
@EtiennedeMartel Lately, there are way too many occurences of that...
Yeah, I left a link to the Definitive C++ Book Guide in the comments.
I think that's the most I can do.
17:17
@EtiennedeMartel Sadly, I didn't realize that until after I used a std::string<char> as a buffer of bytes for a short period.
I prefer std::vector<BYTE> (or another uint8 typedef)
Xeo
Xeo
Yay, GoingNative starts in less than 10 minutes!
user784668
I prefer to use void* for everything. And to C-style-cast it every time I need to use the data.
@Xeo do you expect to learn something new there?
@Fanael that is so wrong on so many levels
user784668
17:23
I like to store those void* in a global singleton array.
3
Multidimensional.
user784668
I think that we had this exact discussion some time ago.
user784668
Oct 27 '11 at 15:27, by Cat Plus Plus
I use void** and store all the pointers in a global shared singleton mutable array.
Xeo
Xeo
@Abyx Absolutely.
The key note beginning in a few minutes is from Bjarne
user784668
17:27
Oct 27 '11 at 15:29, by Fanael
@CatPlusPlus: I'm currently considering making that pointer table a thread-local, I think I'll have to change them to void***.
user784668
Looks like that's this one.
Xeo
Xeo
It's starting. ♥
user784668
Oh, I can add several answers to the same question? Fantastic.
@Fanael that's usually what I do if I come up with a completely new answer (possibly because previous was dead-wrong)
Xeo
Xeo
AAAAARGH. Of course, my connection is dying right now.
17:47
hi
user784668
Er, good morning?
@MooingDuck Edit the old one?
@CatPlusPlus that keeps the votes and comments, which is confusing
-1
Q: Using zlib's deflate

JohnI have been trying to write an unzipper based on only zlib. I was getting unhelpful exceptions when inflating a deflated entry so I wrote a method that deflated files and save those bytes to disk. This is what I got out : 785E 558F 410B 0221 1085 EF41 FF41 BCC6 665D 455B 083A 17F4 0BCC 9D2D 49...

Lol.
18:02
I like File_handle casing :)
user784668
Fail_handle?
Xeo
Xeo
"look, I'm a Java programmer! :)" LOL
btw, int != Gadget
Xeo
Xeo
He mentioned that. Typo.
what would be not-so-positive about "every function is an object (ie functor)". Is there any disadvantage of these over function pointers and the like?
18:12
@rubenvb LOC
@rubenvb also, all objects take at least 1 byte
@MooingDuck let's say syntax is free to be changed in light of everything I'll be asking now :)
@rubenvb they also need to be instantiated before called
@MooingDuck well, a function pointer is as big as a... well, pointer.
@rubenvb then absolutely nothing, some languages probably do that
@rubenvb but if every function is a functor, then you just added 1 byte for every function in the code, even if it isn't pointed at
Hm, there's also a recursive problem there :D
but a function call in assembly is also a jump to an address (among other, more freaky things), isn't it?
and a functor can "easily be inlined", or so you guys always say :P
18:16
@rubenvb essentially, there's also a bit of pushing of params and such, but essentially yes
@rubenvb don't confused optimizing with spec design. The C++ standard says almost nothing about actually inlining a function.
true enough.
Xeo
Xeo
Yay, imaginary graph xD
@rubenvb Yeah, you need to make a lot of changes to the language to avoid a recursive problem there.
functor > function pointer
I'm scared by the fact that the Standard writers felt the need for a rule concerning this exact scenario:
2
Q: c++: is it allowed to write an instance of Derived over an instance of Base?

user1123502Say, the code class Derived: public Base {....} Base* b_ptr = new( malloc(sizeof(Derived)) ) Base(1); b_ptr->f(2); Derived* d_ptr = new(b_ptr) Derived(3); b_ptr->g(4); d_ptr->f(5); seems to be reasonable and LSP is satisfied. I suspect that this code is stand...

18:19
@MooingDuck What recursive problem?
@DeadMG if a function is a functor.... nevermind, I was forcing the idea into C++ syntax
@MooingDuck if every function is stored as a "static" functor with a proper operator(), I don't see any recursiveness.
just downloaded the algorithm design manual
it looks promising
definitely wont be able to read it one day though
out of curiosuity does stackoverflow have a calculus website wheree people can ask calculus questions or general algebra?
@BenVoigt isn't that effectively for boost::any?
mathematics.stackexchange.com, I believe
18:24
awsome!
surpised why stackoverflow isnt more popular than facebook, this platform has everything
@BenVoigt as for the destructor thing, I can't imagine any reason they allowed that
@JohnMerlino it seriously is. MESSAGE EDITING
@MooingDuck: "an old pointer is good for a new object in the same spot only if both have the same type" is reasonable. The fact that they had to throw in "We really mean same type, base classes don't count" is sad.
MATHEMATICS!
18:32
without it, we'd still be living in mud huts
user142019
18:45
*Wrote loads of code* "Oh I'm so excited!" *Hits "Build and Run"* "Oh my God I can't wait!"
user142019
clang: error: unable to execute command: Segmentation fault: 11
clang: error: clang frontend command failed due to signal 2 (use -v to see invocation)
Command /Developer/Platforms/iPhoneSimulator.platform/Developer/usr/bin/clang failed with exit code 254
Lawl.
That'll teach you about using clang.
user142019
:P
But honestly clang is going to be the shit.
lol
It's not opensource Clang. I bet only Apple version Clang crashes that way :P
user142019
18:48
The worst thing about these errors is that you don't know when it happens.
user142019
Maybe I should try verbose mode if clang has that…
Xcode 4 has three choices by default named respectively "GCC 4.2", "LLVM GCC 4.2" and "LLVM compiler 2.0"
user142019
GCC hasn't got automatic reference counting, which would mean that I need to rewrite my entire app.
@WTP What do you mean by "automatic reference counting"?
@WTP Well darn!
You should have foreseen that.
user142019
18:53
@EtiennedeMartel clang will automatically insert retain and release calls in Objective-C code. Kinda like garbage collection, but compile-time.
@WTP Oh, you're doing Objective-C?
Well shit
user142019
Well yeah.
user142019
And garbage collection isn't available on the iPhone. :P
"Yeah, uh, we have this fancy Objective-C 2.0 thing, with brand new super cool features, but you won't be able to use it on iOS."
Just because the compiler inserts the retain and release calls in your objects does not mean you have 'compile time memory management'. The calls still run at runtime (same with shared_ptr).
user142019
18:56
Clang doesn't like dot-notation, it seems.
user142019
Fixed it now.
I remember using autorelease in Objective-C. If you consistently follow a small set of rules then you can easily avoid leaks.
Or you could fuck the iPhone and switch to C++.
user142019
Or Haskell.
user142019
18:59
Yes.
Or Prolog.
There are two kinds of people: those who solve practical problems, and those who use Haskell.
Those who write bug-free code, and those who don't use Haskell.
user142019
And politicians, who do neither.
@WTP I don't count them as "people".
But, yeah, it's fun for a proof of concept, but at one point you're going to need to man up, clench your teeth, and use a crappy language like C++ or Java.
Because life's a bitch, and problems are not going to wait to be solvable using a clean language or framework.
19:02
@Xeo, it was really interesting and funny somewhere) Now I know what should I do when one slide was disappeared
@EtiennedeMartel Like what?
Xeo
Xeo
@Abyx Hrhr
Xeo
Xeo
@RMartinhoFernandes Doesn't matter anymore. :) I just wanted to know your local time, and if Germany was GMT+1 or +2 currently (I couldn't remember it)
Xeo
Xeo
Well, I wanted to know when exactly GoingNative started. :s
Shouldn't it be UTC?
My local time is WET.
You're wet?
WUT?
Xeo
Xeo
19:05
Anyways, who's watching the GoingNative streams?
Ow, I forgot!
I'm in class right now, and I don't have concealable headphones.
But I got a friend who has, and he's watching it a few feet away from me.
The bastard.
Xeo
Xeo
19:05
lol
I'd seriously consider skipping classes for this stream
There are VODs anyway.
Xeo
Xeo
Or not, since the talks will be available on demand later on
I might watch them while I wait for my code to build, which takes ages because C++ has no modules.
Dammit, need to install Silverlight.
Well, it's from Microsoft, what did you expect?
19:07
@StackedCrooked You can use this link with e.g. VLC.
AFAICT there are no overlapping talks so no need to switch between streams or anything, but don't blame me if you miss something.
@LucDanton Alright, this works!
Has Stroustrup's talk finished?
Did I miss anything? :D
Xeo
Xeo
@StackedCrooked The talk.
Thank you, Captain Obvious.
19:10
Ah well. I can see it later.
Xeo
Xeo
@EtiennedeMartel Always at your service!
Yay, memory model.
He's got an interesting dialect.
It's a German dialect. He's probably a nazi.
Xeo
Xeo
lol
@StackedCrooked Woa, woa.
Careful with that.
Xeo
Xeo
19:22
I can atleast assure that my English doesn't sound like that. xD
@StackedCrooked ಠ_ಠ
That joke was partially an experiment :)
Dude, you don't know the Internet rules?
You can't joke with that.
Xeo
Xeo
Mm... he tries to be a bit too fast, imho. Could use some pauses in his sentences (and between)
19:24
I can't skip back a live stream. Aargg.
Xeo
Xeo
You can
you can't skip forward
VLC doesn't allow it. Let me try on Mac.
Xeo
Xeo
@StackedCrooked Just install Silverlight. :P
I already did. Actually I'm now running both.
Alright! Silverlight > VLC
19:25
What an amazing talk about Fibonacci with threads.
These are variables!
And this is an expression!
Gosh, that's terrible.
@CatPlusPlus To add insult to injury I suspect he recycled a previous talk on threads for this part at least.
Xeo
Xeo
Won't he spawn a bad amount of threads with that fib implementation?
He's got disclaimer saying that on the slide.
Xeo
Xeo
GAAAH, my damn internet connection!
19:28
Futures are nice.
Xeo
Xeo
I think I'll use this chance to grab something to eat.
I had to skip dinner to actually watch Bjarne's talk. :(
Woah. You know you can watch it later, don't you?
It won't rot.
Not that there is much to see here.
I guess "STL11 – Magic && Secrets" will be something like this talk
Anyway since I've already seen his previous talk on threads I'm instead trolling for Unicode: ☉_☉
It's like threading 101, and it's supposed to be a big event?
Bleh.
On the other hand, it's the second talk.
But what do I know ⚆_⚆
But if you had to prepare the talk yourself, you'd probably want go over the basics as well.
Everyone does.
"Hello. If you're not smart enough to understand this talk, I don't mind if you leave in the middle. I won't go over the basics."
19:34
.⏠.
That's a sad face.
he would just list differences from boost.thread
Articles > talks.
@StackedCrooked All better now ◠_◠
At a live talk you are basically tied to your chair. Which forces you to follow the speaker step by step. Which is sometimes a good thing.
@LucDanton Ah, I feel relieved now.
19:36
Sounds like class.
Indeed. :D
Structs are better.
typedef struct.
what about unions?
I'm a dead man.
19:38
I don't like default-private.
There is no chance I can make it
10 online
20 offline
30 goto 10
That should teach you not to mess with the mob.
That should teach you not to mess with the mob.
I'm not good at cleaning anyway.
i ≔ 42 who wants that in his or her dream language?
19:54
That a Pascal-like assignment?
Did the chat crash?
@RMartinhoFernandes Yes. It looks bad in my typeface though.
What the hell.
Who broke it?
Phew.
For a moment there, I thought that I had no more reason to live.
19:58
I think they went offline for maintenance, and something went wrong.
Someone broke it.
@LucDanton Well, it isn't that different from = on mine. I think I'm okay with :=.
@RMartinhoFernandes ≔ makes me want to clean my screen.

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