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11:00 PM
@Zoidberg'-- Yeah. But that's no problem, because it takes aeons to get into bed in the first place. The same was true about getting girls into my bed, so it could have been the bed, not me
 
user142019
If you use a C++ interpreter you shouldn’t really care about performance.
 
user142019
@sehe maybe it was both you and the bed1
 
Performance is deprecated, use python
2
 
I'm bad at explaining things so maybe I'm just not clear enough I don't know vOv
 
@sehe Welke van bovenstaande steden is de vreemde eend in de bijt?
 
11:01 PM
@Zoidberg'-- bed1, upgraded now.
 
user142019
@JohannesSchaub-litb 'sup G
 
@StackedCrooked Bejing (Peking Eend)
 
Lol, Hallstatt. Never heard of that city.
 
Apparently it's on the UNESCO list
 
@CatPlusPlus as a fellow cat, I know how you feel.
 
11:02 PM
@CatPlusPlus I doublechecked, you didn't. Your wording was precise. So you said it's irrelevant because you're expecting code that isn't conforming C++, and because nobody uses REPLs for anything useful
 
No, no, REPLs are very useful
 
user142019
My reference counting implementation is bad and I should feel bad.
 
Also that an "interpreter" can read the full source than execute it.
 
It's just that your assumption that REPL has to be 100% conformant and can't pretend that things exist that aren't actually there for purposes of executing single expressions or statements is wrong
 
@CatPlusPlus I summarized, you said it had specific usages but was slow.
 
11:04 PM
Direct execution is slow
That's why nobody does that, and instead interpreters are compiler + VM
 
@CatPlusPlus of course it is, but that's complete irrelevant to my point
 
Writing a VM is harder than writing a compiler yet provides worse performance
Direct execution sounds nicer
 
Writing a VM for high-level bytecode isn't that hard
Optimising it is bit harder, but when isn't
 
user142019
It’s hard if you want JIT-compilation.
 
11:05 PM
Not really
 
@CatPlusPlus I'm saying that the fact that a REPL for conforming C++ source code doesn't make sense is an aspect of C++.
 
No need to roll your own VM today.
 
l.l.v.m.
 
user142019
LLVM to the rescue!
 
@MooingDuck But that doesn't make language interpreted or compiled
REPLs can be gimped implementations, it doesn't matter
Full interpreter is still perfectly doable
Because interpreters DO NOT WORK like REPLs
 
11:07 PM
@CatPlusPlus no, but one could use that as the definition for what is or is not an "interpreted" language
 
@CatPlusPlus Why no?
 
...
 
But count me out of further discussion, I said everything on the subject
 
NONONONONONONONO!
 
11:07 PM
@CatPlusPlus Heh, GIMP's implementation uses REPL
 
59 secs ago, by Cat Plus Plus
Full interpreter is still perfectly doable
1 min ago, by Cat Plus Plus
Full interpreter is still perfectly doable
 
@CatPlusPlus Expecting next outburst in 7minutes, 13 seconds
@CatPlusPlus Sound arguments. Impressive
 
What
It's been done
 
@CatPlusPlus oh I see, the objection is with the name, because the name is misleading. Got it.
 
It literally can be done with fucking Clang
 
11:08 PM
makes sense.
 
Clang can be interpreter
 
27 mins ago, by Cat Plus Plus
Also, I realised that me sperging about interpreted/compiled language thing is almost as horrible as SOMEONE sperging about difference between argument and parameter, so I'm never doing that again
 
Think about that
 
user142019
Calling release_client on NULL is UB.
 
user142019
Ah fuck it, you’re just a moron if you do that.
 
11:09 PM
@sehe Hey, moping duck pinged me
I didn't correct anyone
On saying stupid shit
 
moping duck, wasn't corrected. Check.
 
Eh, I'm tired and I don't care
 
@Zoidberg'-- free and delete should probably be the same
 
so instead of "interpreted" vs "compiled" I should call them "REPL'able" and.... something else.
 
user142019
@Pubby indeed. PRECIOUS BRANCHING INSTRUCTIONS.
 
11:10 PM
Except C++ REPL is still doable but okay
 
@Pubby Who needs destructors anyway!
 
whatever
 
Well, it's a low-level primitive and none of the other low level primitives check for NULL afaik
 
oh dear, it turns out d2::point_xy doesn't provide an immutable addition
that sucks
 
And it's not like delete is used very often
 
user142019
11:11 PM
void release_client(uv_tcp_t *client) {
    struct client_data *client_data = client->data;
 
user142019
I could add assert there but oh God that may be even a good idea because debug mode.
 
@StackedCrooked I meant they should not check for NULL
 
Aaaah.
 
scons devides into "REPL" and "compile-run".
 
user142019
assert is no-op if NDEBUG is defined, right?
 
11:12 PM
@Zoidberg'-- yes
 
user142019
Awesome.
 
It's better than no-op, it's no-exist
 
user142019
I’m going to add an assert there before I run into segfaults.
 
@Zoidberg'-- I like Greenfoot! It has as 'Save the world' action in it's context menu! And it saves the world by generating java code. Impressive
 
@Zoidberg'-- "don't pay for what you don't use" "except delete"
 
11:12 PM
@Pubby It expands to
 
assert everything.
 
user142019
@MooingDuck it’s C.
 
@Zoidberg'-- delete is C?
 
user142019
No, my code is in C.
 
delete[] should take a size argument too. Actually, maybe not because that would suck.
 
11:13 PM
Not in C
 
user142019
No fuck these assertions.
 
user142019
I can use LLDB or valgrind on segfaults.
 
@Pubby It still expands to something (usually (void)0). Has to expand to an expression, in case you do something like assert(x), dosomething();. It has to expand to something so the comma operator will have both required operands.
 
@StackedCrooked Also.
 
11:16 PM
@StackedCrooked it's common for me to have assert(!"WTF DID YOU DO"); in branches that shouldn't have been reached.
 
> When the name of a member template specialization appears after . or -> in a postfix-expression, or after nested-name-specifier in a qualified-id, and the postfix-expression or qualified-id explicitly depends on a template-parameter (14.6.2), the member template name must be prefixed by the keyword template. Otherwise the name is assumed to name a non-template.
 
@JerryCoffin Oh, right.
 
^ What the hell is this ?
you get shit like t->template f0<U>()
 
user142019
@kbok parsing amiguity.
 
@kbok Welcome to C++
 
11:17 PM
@kbok most vexing parse
 
user142019
Otherwise it doesn’t know whether < is template or smaller than.
 
@MooingDuck At my first job assertions were displayed as messageboxes. That style (!"") was used a lot.
 
@Zoidberg'-- oh
 
typename T::template bar<typename U::type>::template apply<typename T::argument>::type
 
All right then
 
user142019
11:18 PM
Those things would have been solved if C++ enforced uppercase typenames and lowercase variable/function names like Haskell.
 
I cracked my knuckles
and in addition, I yawned
 
user142019
But yeah I think that’d be bad in C++.
 
That would require to go back in time and tell Mr.Ritchie to set up the rules :)
 
@Zoidberg'-- They would also be solved if we didn't have a totally batshit insane grammar.
 
@Zoidberg'-- Enforce types end in _t is more like it
 
11:20 PM
And I think typing in "typename" is simpler than time travel. I could be wrong thought
 
user142019
@Pubby eww
 
@Zoidberg'-- your face: t_t
(that's supposed to crying, not double middle fingers, fuck, that's a parsing ambiguity)
 
user142019
T_T
 
@Zoidberg'-- Almost everything could be simpler if the world wasn't the way it is. If C++ were going to imitate Haskell, I can think of better places to start than capitalization conventions.
 
I wonder is a compressed filesystem would be useful for storing code pastes.
 
11:24 PM
do you guys know of any phone hardware comparison sites?
I'm looking to upgrade my old iPhone
 
__TOC__ Hardware and OS 2012 {| class="wikitable sortable" |- ! Model ! CPU ! Storage capacity ! RAM ! OS ! UI ! Size ! Weight ! Display ! Keyboard ! Camera ! Other ! GPU ! Charger type |- | Apple iPhone 5 | Dual-core Apple A6 | 16, 32, or 64 GB | 1 GB | iOS 6.0 | | 123.8 × 58.6 × 7.6 mm |  g | 4.0" 1136 × 640, 326 ppi | Soft QWERTY | MP, 1080p video; 1.2 MP front | Unknown | PowerVR SGX543MP3 | Lightning (connector) |- | HTC One V | 1 GHz Qualcomm MSM 8255 Snapdragon | 4 GB | MB | An...
Maybe.
 
@MooingDuck that's something else of course
 
@StackedCrooked Probably -- pretty compressible.
 
@kbok Even ThePhD found these out. After he switched to a real compiler (not MSVC)
 
@JerryCoffin Yeah. I think so too.
 
11:28 PM
@sehe Yeah I just did
 
@kbok LOL. Psychic
@JerryCoffin Well, if it's all going to be sub-4k snippets (likely) there will be no difference
You'd be required to store variablesize blocks (or plain archives) making the lookup a lot more complicated.
 
@sehe Hadn't considered that, but it's a good point (unless the underlying file system had something like 255-byte chunks -- but if it did, you'd lose a lot of compression, at least from an LZ* compressor).
 
I still need to investigate. Options that I am aware of from the top of my head are NTFS and Fuse.
Unless I could mount a compressed archive as a readable + writable drive. But that seems unlikely.
 
@StackedCrooked So, just bench it. I'd say, it makes a lot more sense to just archive snippets >30 days old into bzipped archive files. Stream them out on demand
 
@Pubby Originally, it did, but it proved to be too error-prone.
 
11:32 PM
@StackedCrooked You don't need writable, actually?
 
Good point. I was thinking about storing new pastes immediately in the mount.
 
@FredOverflow It's hardly less errorprone without the size argument... I think this is a major source of bugs in c++
 
For NTFS, compression of really small files can also be useful. NTFS can store the whole file in the MFT entry if it's small enough (though I don't remember the exact limit).
 
@StackedCrooked If a mount, then yes, why not.
 
@sehe Meh, delete[] is hidden deep within the bowels of std::vector, so what do I care? :)
 
11:34 PM
I don't know if the technology exists. I'll need to check.
 
@JerryCoffin Although is is something to check whether ntfs-3g supports that (actively)
@FredOverflow Yeah I know that.
@StackedCrooked Yeah there is a fuse compressing fs. I'd still opt for archiving. This is what you functionally aim to achieve, right
 
@FredOverflow std::vector won't use delete[] at all.
 
@sehe Oh, it uses std::allocator<T> internally, does that one use delete or delete[]? :)
 
@FredOverflow operator new and operator delete.
 
The point is, we don't have to worry about it
 
11:35 PM
Of course, stupid me :)
But why doesn't it use operator new[]?
 
Indeed. But a new paste is added, then what do I do? Extract existing archive to a directory and archive it again with the new paste included? Or do you envision a nightly/weekly archiving operation?
 
@FredOverflow There's no such thing.
operator new allocates memory- that's it.
 
Of course there is...?
Yes, and operator new[] allocated memory for arrays.
 
which is exactly the same thing, except with a larger size argument.
 
and more girth
We need larger-size arguments.
 
user142019
11:37 PM
@StackedCrooked allow for multiple files at once and create a Git repository for each submission. Editing would create a new commit. :P
 
Actually, I could add the archives to a subversion repository and use svn cat for extraction :P
 
@FredOverflow There is, but it's fairly pointless -- ::operator new and ::operator new[] have exactly the same interface (and in every library I've looked at carefully enough to know, identical implementations as well).
 
@sehe Of type long long size_t? ;)
 
@Zoidberg'-- That's okay, but only if you use it as a bare repo and pry the objects out one by one using git cat-file -p REV:path/to/file.cpp... tedious
@StackedCrooked SUBVERSION?!?!?!?!?! I thought you were talking about compression
 
@Zoidberg'-- A repository for each submission? Why not create a github acount for each codepaste?
 
user142019
11:39 PM
@StackedCrooked or use Gist!
 
@StackedCrooked lol
 
@sehe I'm familiar with subversion. And I think it uses compression.
 
user142019
Subversion only stores diffs, IIRC.
 
Ahem. It uses delta compression. Over the wire .
 
DVCS repos take nothing
 
11:39 PM
@Zoidberg'-- Well, there will never be any diffs, right?
 
@DeadMG Still not sure if you're denying the existence of operator new[] or not...
 
user142019
@sehe nope. :P
 
In case of automatic compilation there will be diffs.
 
@FredOverflow Well, apparently, it does exist, it's just worthless. Which, I guess, could be construed as my mistake.
 
Empty hg repo takes whole 90 bytes (directory entries probably take more than repo itself)
 
11:41 PM
Or if a paste is based on another paste (aka "Clone"-feature in Ideone)
 
@DeadMG I only know about it because Bjarne discusses it in TD&E.
 
Empty git repo 180b after cleanup, and most of it is configuration
 
If I need a repo per file then I might as well store the file on disk immediately.
 
So yeah, repo for each submission is nothing
 
user142019
@StackedCrooked no no not per file.
 
11:43 PM
@StackedCrooked In case of automatic compilation there will be no server any more :)
 
Where do you want to store the file otherwise
 
user142019
Per submission. Allow multiple files per submission (extremely useful if you have header files and you don’t want to #include manually).
 
@StackedCrooked Nah. Just use git. It will detect such things even if the 'Clone' or 'Fork' button wasn't directly invoked
 
@StackedCrooked Every time things like this arise, I keep thinking: "VMS had version control built into the file system -- in 1980-something!"
 
@sehe Just git won't cut it
 
11:44 PM
@CatPlusPlus What kind of FS do you live on? It has the object directory structure. IIRC this has at least 256 subdirectory entries
 
With two repos you can tell which is ahead of which one, but that's not really reliable
 
@CatPlusPlus What?
 
I'd track the relations separately
 
@Zoidberg'-- That almost rhymes with that song where they say No no no don't lie.
 
@JerryCoffin He's looking for efficient storage, not versioning per se
 
user142019
11:45 PM
If you don’t do versioning don’t use version control system.
 
Efficient storage for files
is memory
I no longer know what this discussion is about then
 
user142019
But multiple files at once (and storing them in the same directory) would be awesome.
 
@CatPlusPlus Persistent storage. Memory mapped shit. Bring Your Own Compression. That'll work
 
user142019
Efficient storage for files is /dev/null. It’s fast as hell. And it compresses at least 100%. The compression is lossy, though.
 
@CatPlusPlus Storing small code fragments directly on the file system seems like a waste due to minimum cluster size etc. That's why I figured that I might need a compressed fs, or vcs for better space usage.
 
11:47 PM
VCS is still on FS and uses files
If cluster size is 4kB
 
user142019
Use a DBMS.
 
Guess where DBMS lives
 
user142019
DBMS won’t create a new file for each record.
 
Also DBMS has much more overhead at start than any flat file
 
@CatPlusPlus I've looked at the Subversion repository directory structure. It doesn't store each revisioned file as a file on the file system.
 
11:48 PM
@StackedCrooked do you really have enough files <2kb to care about?
 
Even so
If cluster is 4kB, and most submissions will be under 4kB
 
@MooingDuck Currently this archive is occupying 22 MB already.
 
20 mins ago, by sehe
@JerryCoffin Well, if it's all going to be sub-4k snippets (likely) there will be no difference
 
root@stacked-crooked:~/coliru/Web# du -sh Archive
22M	Archive
 
@CatPlusPlus I was a 'first responder'
 
11:50 PM
How much disk space do you have available for this?
 
user142019
@sehe @interface sehe : NSFirstResponder
 
@Zoidberg'-- NS? WTF
 
user142019
@sehe NeXTSTEP
 
My eyes
 
user142019
Objective-C haz no namespaces.
 
11:51 PM
@CatPlusPlus Currently I have 10GB.
 
user142019
Well no namespace except for what C provides.
 
Because honestly, 1M 4kB files is less than 4GB
1 million
 
OK. TBH:
 
@StackedCrooked I'd expect less than 1.5MB is wasted.
 
user142019
@StackedCrooked buy 64 GB RAM and store everything in RAM and store and run the compiler on RAM disk.
 
11:52 PM
Stop optimising something that doesn't need to be optimised
Use a database if you want to track dependencies between submissions or some other metadata
Use flat files for storage itself
 
@CatPlusPlus Where am I optimizing? I'm discussing. Isn't that the right thing to do?
 
Thinking about optimization is the root of all evil?
 
user142019
I once wrote a pastebin but took it offline after a horrible amount of spam.
 
@StackedCrooked stick it all in an archive, compress it. Or use git and do a git gc --aggressive to see what size it would become. Find size of git repo
 
Thinking about it, I wonder if quite a bit of the space isn't more from the number of files than the amount of actual data. If many/most of the files are less than one cluster, you might get significant savings from using plain old ar.
 
11:54 PM
@StackedCrooked No. Without a valid reason to be discussing it :)
 
Even that I wouldn't have know without talking about it.
 
@sehe Barely discussing -- chatting.
 
user142019
Put everything in one file and keep in a database the offsets and lengths. :P
 
9 mins ago, by sehe
@CatPlusPlus Persistent storage. Memory mapped shit. Bring Your Own Compression. That'll work
 
user142019
11:55 PM
aaaaaaaaaaaand you need mutexes
 
@Zoidberg'-- Congratulations, you've just reinvented (a more complex version of) ar.
 
inb4 SQLite!
 
user142019
inb4 MongoDB!
 
Anyway I have many different things that I want to check out. I might delegate the storage to Google Drive or Ubuntu One for example.
 
@Zoidberg'-- I've learned the hard way. Don't do that
 
user142019
11:56 PM
mongoloid database
 
:)
 
user142019
@MooingDuck it was a joke!
 
I just installed AltGrab on my windows box today. I'm totally relying on this already. Makes the windows env feel a bit more usable
 
user142019
@StackedCrooked Coliru was open-source, right?
 
Maybe I should install spyware on my user's computers to create a huge distrubuted network drive.
@Zoidberg'-- Yep.
 
11:57 PM
@StackedCrooked Who did that again. Zoid?
 
user142019
@StackedCrooked where can I find the sauce?
 
@sehe Dunno, it's my own original idea :)
 
user142019
@sehe ik ontken.
 
@Zoidberg'-- google coliru find github google code
 
@Zoidberg'-- coliru.googlecode.com (Warning: I'm not proud of the code..)
 
user142019
11:58 PM
@StackedCrooked dankeschön.
 
user142019
I want to see how you did the security stuff.
 
@Zoidberg'-- erbarmlijk
:)
 
user142019
I’m not very familiar with permissions in Linux.
 
user142019
And chroot and whatnot.
 
@Zoidberg'-- Start at sandbox.sh for that.
 
11:59 PM
@Zoidberg'-- The best security decision there was to open source it
 

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