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user142019
10:00 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Java was designed? What kind of hard drugs were used while designing it? I want to try them too.
 
@Zoidberg'-- They wanted to make a "simpler C++". They succeeded. Java's main problem is that it never evolved past that. But it used to be good, back when we had nothing else.
PHP, however, never was good. And it even got worse with time.
 
Don't forget PHP was a 'better Perl'. In a few (marginal) ways, it could be said to have been that
 
@Zoidberg'-- Over time, I've become convinced it's not a matter of drugs. Sun made a conscious decision to hire armies of mediocre programmers instead of a few good ones. To go with, they designed Java to keep armies of mediocre programmers out of trouble and ensure that you needed an army of programmers to compete (e.g., by such verbosity that it would take fewer programmers too long to get anything done).
@sehe Very few and very marginal though -- to the point that overall it's a clear loss, even compared to Perl.
 
user142019
Hurray! Merge conflict in a project file!
 
my project files are exe projectName : [ glob-tree *.cpp ] ; :P
 
10:15 PM
lol
 
naw, not quite that simple; but I've started grokking Boost.Build, and it's pretty awesome like that.
 
user142019
We are using Greenfoot. Worthless piece of junk.
 
@JerryCoffin I'm not to sure about that. It's not PHPs fault that Perl6 is a better "better Perl" now
 
user142019
The project file changes every time because Greenfoot adds a fucking timestamp to it every time you save, even if you didn’t change anything.
 
user142019
We get wonderful merge conflicts because of that.
 
10:17 PM
@sehe Even compared to Perl 5, PHP loses (IMO, obviously).
 
@Zoidberg'-- Greenfoot?!
 
@Zoidberg'-- Sounds like something you should amputate.
 
user142019
@sehe stupid school forces us to use that.
 
@JerryCoffin Well, I do agree. I laud the motion of steering away from Perl5's debilitating type system, though. typeglobs, any one
@Zoidberg'-- What is it
 
user142019
 
10:18 PM
@rvalue No, it's not
 
user142019
Something for learning Java the wrong way. Its API is horrifically bad.
 
Get out of there while you can
 
user142019
It’s bad and its authors should feel bad.
 
@Zoidberg'-- Oh lol. Turtle graphics was out of stock :)
 
user142019
I don’t understand why they make us write games. If you want to learn game development, go to NHTV in Breda which is specialized in game development.
 
10:19 PM
@CatPlusPlus What's wrong?
 
Wow, i didn't know about ">!"
 
@sehe "Perl5 type system" sounds like an oxymoron. Never seemed systematic to me.
 
>! hello folks
doesn't work :(
 
<! Hello
 
@JerryCoffin That's the problem
 
10:19 PM
but it seems to work on the main page
 
Simple things are simple, but complex things get exponentially more impossible
 
for riddles
 
user142019
hello <!> world
 
@JohannesSchaub-litb That's ooooold
 
<!-- hello world -->
 
10:19 PM
And then you have to dig into internals of both Boost.Build and BJam
 
user142019
(<!>) = (++)
 
And it's not pretty
Also, bad docs
 
@sehe Yup -- but PHP is (at least) as bad.
 
@CatPlusPlus Isn't that about the same with Waf and SCons?
@JerryCoffin Precisely
 
10:20 PM
@sehe Much, much less
 
7
Q: Multithreading on Intel much slower than on AMD

Michal I want to make code below parallelized: for(int c=0; c<n; ++c) { Work(someArray, c); } I've done it this way: #include <thread> #include <vector> auto iterationsPerCore = n/numCPU; std::vector<std::future<void>> futures; for(auto th = 0; th < numCPU; ++th...

 
@CatPlusPlus Okay. Thanks. I'll keep it in the back of my mind
 
interesting question
 
And even when you have to dig, it's Python and not some ancient arcane language with undocumented semantics
 
user142019
npm is the best package manager ever.
 
10:21 PM
Yeah. Too bad it only does nodejs
 
@CatPlusPlus Agreed the docs are bad, but I've ported some fairly complex software without issues beyond not know how to do it properly when I started
 
user142019
@sehe Well, you can use it for other things too.
 
... if that makes sense.
 
user142019
It can invoke other build systems, only thing is that everything will be stored in a directory named node_modules.
 
@CatPlusPlus What would you recommend?
 
user142019
10:25 PM
I’ll probably write a more generic package manager once that is similar to npm i.e. don’t install everything globally.
 
user142019
Simple JSON config file.
 
waf or SCons
 
Doesn't that basically throw out "build system" for "run this program"
 
Scons has very nice integrated, generalized 'ccache' features
 
user142019
10:26 PM
I love Waf.
 
@rvalue Not at all
Waf woef waf woef, waf woef waf woef, waf woef waf woef, waf woef...
Nu blaft hij alle dagen?
 
I have no idea what you mean by that
 
@DeadMG interesting...
 
I'm not really a Python Guy, so I've always pretty much ignored it when I see it
 
never mind
 
user142019
10:27 PM
@Mysticial It’s tagged C++. Nothing to see there for you. :P
 
@CatPlusPlus He means, it's not a build tool, it's just a script, then. Which is a (very) inaccurate presentation of SCons or Waf
 
I still have no idea what that means
 
@Zoidberg'-- Djurk
 
user142019
I don’t see why scripts cannot be build tools.
 
@CatPlusPlus He means it is like writing a build script in shell script
 
user142019
10:28 PM
That’s like saying houses cannot be made of wood.
 
The couple of times I've needed to use it, it's been full of calls to tools that weren't installed that I've had to hunt down
 
@rvalue Blame the package manager. Dependencies aren't bad. Unlisted dependencies are the things that hurt the most
 
Build system boils down to building a dependency graph, then deriving build order and then running commands
 
@Zoidberg'-- Yeah... too much advanced C++ in that....
 
@rvalue What
 
10:30 PM
@CatPlusPlus Sounds like an oversimplification the Puppy would make, really
 
Both SCons and waf are self-contained and only require Python to run
@sehe ~boils down~ means it's oversimplified on purpose
That's what make does more or less
It's sort of baseline
 
I'm just saying SCons (and Waf) have this down to a detail that makes the other ingredients non-trivial
@CatPlusPlus Make is pretty spartan, yes (it's probably why I sort-of-like GNU make)
Oh wow. This is a beauty:
 
user142019
I’m going to write platform-agnostic npm.
 
Needs MOAR JPG! /cc @Zoidberg'--
 
@Zoidberg'-- npm is platform-agnostic
:v
 
user142019
10:35 PM
@CatPlusPlus no, it’s not. It’s for Node.js.
 
node is agnostic, FTFY
 
oh, @CatPlusPlus, I was thinking about how you always said there's no difference between interpreted and compiled languages, and thought that most "interpreted" languages let you start up an interpreter and each command is executed as it's received, but "compiled" languages don't. Essentially, a first guess at a distinction might be that interpreted languages can execute code as it's being read in.
 
user142019
By platform I meant Node.js. :P
 
It's fairly generic package manager I don't know why are you so enamoured by it
@MooingDuck Naw, nobody does direct interpreters
 
@CatPlusPlus Because it JustWorks(TM) for the things he used it for. Thing is, apt-cyg, emerge, nuGet etc. would all do just as well for things this simple
 
10:36 PM
There's always compilation step to some VM bytecode first
 
@CatPlusPlus Ahem.
 
Direct interpreter is one that reads the source and executes as it parses
Maybe called bit differently, I don't know
 
@sehe Well.
 
@EtiennedeMartel ?
 
@CatPlusPlus I'm not saying that's how it actually is programmed, merely that it's possible.
 
10:37 PM
Well, yes
 
@sehe "Well" is the unimpressed form of "Woa".
(That's not saying much)
 
C++ isn't designed to be be executed before all input has been read in.
 
But that's not really dependent on language
It's not designed to, but that doesn't mean you can't
C++ REPL has been done AFAIK
That's why the distinction on language level is not very useful
 
I failed to mention that the "interpreted" languages can block the input until they complete executing the previous chunk.
@CatPlusPlus C++ doesn't have the interface to do so in a conforming way. What happens when you attempt to execute a function that hasn't been defined yet?
 
user142019
Teacher told us in the first lesson Python was a scripting language because you didn’t compile it.
 
user142019
10:39 PM
I told him about PyPy.
 
Print an error
Go back to prompt
 
user142019
And same for Ruby and MacRuby and PHP and Hip-Hop. :P
 
Like in any language
You can't call undefined functions from Python REPL either
 
@CatPlusPlus is that conforming?
 
@CatPlusPlus It has, and there are interpreters too.
 
10:39 PM
Conforming to what?
 
@CatPlusPlus C++ spec
 
vOv
It's not really relevant
 
@Zoidberg'-- Well. That's a different "language" then, to him :)
 
user142019
@MooingDuck well the implementation must show a diagnostic.
 
user142019
10:41 PM
What it does after that, who cares?
 
@sehe Weird shit.
 
@Zoidberg'-- but it's valid C++ code.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Vely weild, indeed!
 
Also, I realised that me sperging about interpreted/compiled language thing is almost as horrible as SOMEONE sperging about difference between argument and parameter, so I'm never doing that again
 
user142019
@sehe also Python gets compiled to bytecode just like Java.
 
10:41 PM
@sehe You made that typo on purpose, didn't you?
 
user142019
@MooingDuck oh linker errors.
 
@CatPlusPlus let's have that in writing. Oh wait
 
Also C++ doesn't allow executable statements outside of functions, interpreted languages don't have entry points.
 
@EtiennedeMartel What typo
 
But it's still not very useful, just saying
 
10:42 PM
@Zoidberg'-- I know right
 
I can design a language that has an entry point and then do an interpreter
 
@MooingDuck You can execute stuff in initialization
 
@CatPlusPlus I'm not claiming it's useful. I'm claiming there's a distinguishing feature that defines if a languages is "interpreted" or not.
 
Haskell doesn't have executable statements outside of monads, and yet REPL is done and doing just fine
@MooingDuck Except there isn't
 
@CatPlusPlus Easily. Any program taking any input qualifies!
 
10:43 PM
@Pubby highly limited
 
@sehe You silly bear.
 
@sehe I mean, like a function or something
 
New levels of accuracy are being discovered
 
But really, if you want to find C++ language features that make it hard to REPL, then you want to look at direct memory access
Not statements
 
user142019
Hurray. I have to interface with MongoDB from C. Wonderful query construction.
 
user142019
10:44 PM
bson b[1];

bson_init(b)
bson_append_string(b, "name", "Joe");
bson_append_int(b, "age", 33);
bson_finish(b);
 
Could be worse
 
@Zoidberg'-- Not that bad for a C API.
 
user142019
In JavaScript it would be toBSON({name: 'Joe', age: 33}). Much shorter. :P
 
Yeah and in my imaginary language it would be J3
 
10:45 PM
@CatPlusPlus now that I googled REPL, that's exactly what the difference is in my mind. Standard C++ forbids this. That is "dependent on the language"
 
And it would figure out the rest
 
user142019
lol
 
@MooingDuck Forbids what?
Find me a quote that says "YOU SHALL NOT INTERPRET OUR LANGUAGE"
 
@CatPlusPlus C++ has an entry point and forbids statements outside of functions.
 
So what?
Who says it has to be treated as top-level statement
 
user142019
10:47 PM
Interpreter can implicitly do int main() { and }.
 
user142019
Also who the fuck cares whether a C++ REPL is fully compliant or not about placement of fucking statements. You’re not going to use it in production anyway.
 
@CatPlusPlus so it can't "eval" until it finds "main", and even then couldn't finish the eval until it read every statement.
@Zoidberg'-- not conforming I don't think.
 
It doesn't matter
You can execute statement-by-statement and arrive and the same result
You can pretend it's inside the function for REPL purposes
MSVC, a real ~compiler~ is not conforming either
Not 100%
It doesn't matter when we're talking about REPLs, because it's a tool for a) debugging b) discovery
GDB can evaluate expressions outside of any functions
 
@Zoidberg'-- Cat claims the ability to be interpreted is not an aspect of the language. The rules of the language apply in that situation. Nobody is making claims about "useful" here.
 
Also REPL is really a special case
If you want to get into generic interpretation, then C++ source can be perfectly fine interpreted
 
10:50 PM
@CatPlusPlus completely irrelevant to my point.
 
user142019
Also
 
I have no idea what your point is
 
@CatPlusPlus I don't see how, unless the "read" reads in the full and complete source before going to "eval".
 
user142019
@MooingDuck Who says that interpreted must be through REPL?
 
If you have perfectly standard C++ code, you can write an interpreter that executes it perfectly well
 
user142019
10:50 PM
You can interpret a source file.
 
@Zoidberg'-- That's how I'm defining "interpreted" for this discussion.
 
user142019
Oh. :P
 
user142019
Ok.
 
Outside of REPLs, nobody really does statement-by-statement execution, because it's slow as fuck
 
@Zoidberg'-- otherwise cat would be right.
 
10:51 PM
There's always compilation step
In case of C++ full source statement-by-statement would require at least one scan ahead probably
 
@CatPlusPlus goto at least.
 
But you could say that's compilation, so whatever
 
actual c++ interpreter
 
10:53 PM
I can get "C++ cannot be executed statement-by-statement in full source form" point
Because that probably requires too much effort to be of any use
But since interpreters that do compilation step are still called interpreters
 
Imagine an interpreter as two-part
 
That's one weird poutine.
 
It's a compiler and a virtual machine attached together
 
Goat cheese. Goat fucking cheese. On a poutine. My mind is blown.
 
user142019
10:55 PM
@EtiennedeMartel gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme
 
@CatPlusPlus Basically the core of the question is that C++ forbids statements outside of function. That is an aspect of the language. So given a conforming C++ input, a REPL couldn't do the "eval" at least until it gets main, and couldn't complete main's "eval" until it got all of the source.
 
Should questions like this be undeleted? stackoverflow.com/questions/13850059/…
 
user142019
Oh goat cheese. That’s dry as hell.
 
@Zoidberg'-- Like with any poutine, there's also gravy on that. So it should mitigate the dryness.
 
@MooingDuck Yeah, it is an aspect of a language. What I'm saying is that it's not relevant to either REPLs or full-source interpreters
 
user142019
10:55 PM
@Pubby neh, he deleted it himself.
 
I want a REPL which only does template instantiations
 
Really, go look at some interpreters
 
@Zoidberg'-- There was already a correct answer
 
user142019
Oh.
 
@CatPlusPlus I'm saying that if it has to have the full and complete source to execute any part, that's not REPL anymore.
 
user142019
10:56 PM
Well then undelete it.
 
@MooingDuck Well obviously that's not REPL
But REPL wouldn't need that
 
BREAKING: TIL I might have dysania, but very likely not hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia
 
@CatPlusPlus Right, A REPL for conforming C++ source does not make sense. I'd call the languages for which it makes sense "interpretable languages".
 
Long words wouldn't be scary if they used dashes more often
 
10:58 PM
@MooingDuck I'd like to see the ODR rule interfering with that. Aaand ADL. Makes for interesting overload resolution mishaps
 
I already said several times why that's all irrelevant
But whatever
 
user142019
@sehe due to my dysania it takes decennia to get out of bed. Bed Bad pun.
 
@Pubby Yes -- I wanted to add a "You're so 43 seconds late to the typo party!" in reply to the last comment. :-) Other than that, no -- a simple typo is "too localized".
 
@CatPlusPlus you said it's irrelevant because of backend optimizations and it's expecting code that isn't conforming C++.
 
I don't think I've mentioned optimisations
 
10:59 PM
hmm
 

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