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9:12 AM
> I have a problem about the growth of the struct pointer array.
^ opening sentence.
 
lol
 
# PATH=d:\bin\mingw\bin;$(PATH)
CPATH=.;d:\lib\progrock
export CPATH
How can I update an env. variable in a makefile?
Like PATH above (except that is a comment)?
This is GNU make, btw. (the version in Cygwin)
 
@ScottW How fast would you like your arteries clogged?
 
Ell
Can't makefiles run bash scripts?
 
@Ell Yes they can. They can run anything runnable.
 
9:19 AM
@Ell I guess they can, but the script would be its own process? Anyway I'm running the makefile from a simple Windows [cmd.exe]
 
@ScottW Keep going! You're on the good track. Maybe start visiting McDonalds more often, too.
@Cheersandhth.-Alf You can't
 
oh
well i guess i can use a two-level makefile thing, with one of them starting the other
but it's ugly
 
Makefiles are ugly anyway
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf Wait. Are you trying to update the makefile's path or the parent's process?
 
9:41 AM
just the CPATH for the g++ compiler
?
i thought it would be nice to just add to it
but the thing complains about recursive def
and also, Cygwin's mkdir is only too happy to create a directory called nul -- in Windows
actually, now i'm struggling with creating prerequisite directories!
↑ Doesn't work, always attempts to create those directories (and fails, and quits)
 
@ScottW I find that eating a small box of raspberries reduces the guilt.
And it's actually healthy.
 
9:56 AM
@StackedCrooked Hi Crook
 
@ScottW All of them.
Pizza day is a good day.
 
10:14 AM
now making directories works (phew!)
but i had to add that as prerequisite to every file creation :(
 
What are those timestamp files for
If you want to run something but ignore the failure, prepend the command with -.
 
@CatPlusPlus the only way i saw to make transitive dependencies on header files (as opposed to listing ALL header files that something depends on directly or indirectly)
this way, when a header is modifier, it's timestamp gets updated
 
Nobody lists dependencies manually, ever.
Use makedepend.
.cpp -> .o can be taken care of with implicit rule.
 
i think it's better to do things manually first, and then make the tools to automate it
there doesn't seem to be a makedepend in cygwin?
 
No, it's not. makedepend uses the compiler to create a list of dependencies.
(If you really insist on using make, possibly one of the crappiest build systems in existence)
 
10:23 AM
mac2unix.exe
makeinfo.exe
man.exe
man2dvi
man2html.exe
manlint
that's all starting with "ma" :-)
 
Ell
why doesn't someone just write a good build system? >.<
 
the famous Someone(TM)
 
Well, you can call gcc directly.
Apparently makedepend is not really used any more, figures.
 
Or automake, if you are a masochist.
gcc has switches that generate Makefile-compatible dependencies.
gcc -M
 
10:26 AM
-MM -MF <- gagging the compiler
 
hm let me try that
but first i nead some coffee
 
10:42 AM
@CatPlusPlus good read. but i can't help thinking that ditching Ceasar's "divide and conquer" is fundamentally wrong. now reading Miller's paper (but first, more coffee, perhaps food)
 
Divide and conquer what?
 
ANYTHING!
CONQUER ALL THE THINGS!
like, maze of dependencies
 
Automate what you can automate.
Unless you really are a masochist.
 
11:20 AM
well i've finished miller's problem description of what's wrong with recursive make, and that description simply neglects to mention any correct way of doing it, concluding from the list of erroneous ways that it must be Bad(TM).
that's just fallacies at work
but i'll read the rest because it's interesting :-)
 
11:39 AM
@Mysticial thank you very much :) One round's on me... ?
 
sbi
Oh the horror of uninformed newbies trying to put together multi-threaded C++ code out of pieces of other languages of which they have seen a line or two.
@sehe Oh yeah, Hippo Birdbath from me, too!
 
@sehe happy birthday! cheers!
 
:)
 
sbi
I suppose you only once mentioned it shortly, in passing, but the robot stowed it away in his vast memory banks, and never forgot about it?
Anyway, need to get going and help him to set up a bank account.
 
@sbi i once had (still have stowed somewhere) a nice little book about parallel programming in ada, focusing on the ada rendezvous mechanism. i would like to have that abstraction level in c++.
in the 1990's it was all the rage to define "active objects" in various ways
but since we're not using any of those solutions, i think the message from history is: that was a Wrong Approach
 
11:51 AM
@Cheersandhth.-Alf The correct way is not calling make recursively, doh. And the best way is to not use make at all.
 
good morning
here comes the guy without social life :)
 
@CatPlusPlus it's probably wrong to talk about the correct way. just that none of the ways that miller listed were correct. correctness depends a bit on scale also (e.g. versioning requirements), but in general, in order to have a correct build of a module A that depends on a module B, then A must not depend on the internal stuff used to create the external interface of B
 
Recursive make is just a mess.
That's really not relevant to problems with recursive make.
 
violating that requirement was the direct cause of failure in miller's examples
but doing that right doesn't solve all problems
just like having tires on your car (a requirement) is necessary but not in general sufficient to drive it
i think the conclusion is nothing new
namely that people will do things in wrong ways as long as they can make it work with not too unreasonable effort
 
12:07 PM
UTF16 is self-synchronizing like UTF8, I think
right?
 
in a sense. it's easy to identy words that belong to surrogate pairs (because they're in a reserved range). and each pair is just 2 words, exactly.
where "word" = 16 bits
 
12:55 PM
And I'm pretty sure the domains of first pair element/second pair element do not overlap.
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf Not always
@DeadMG Yes
 
1:38 PM
@DeadMG Yes.
 
1:49 PM
@DeadMG static_assert(ogonek::utf16::is_self_synchronizing, "Yes"); :P
 
lol
 
I think I'll add latin1 and cp1252 now. Then I'll investigate what gb18030 looks like.
Latin1 is easy, but cp1252 will need some kind of table thingy.
But I think these are all the important ones.
 
2:32 PM
holy shit, the string_ref proposal is terrible.
2
I actually didn't really read it before, but now I have, and wow, it sucks so incredibly badly
 
2:44 PM
@Cicada yes, always
not talking about characters, just about code units
@DeadMG ;D
@Cicada i'm not sure what you have in mind, but utf-16 is very simple, designed to extend original 16-bit Unicode to 21-bits in half-assed backwards compatible way. so they just used pairs of words to encode the new full Unicode codepoints. so that Windows and Java and some other software could just continue to function
 
3:29 PM
@DeadMG What's so bad about it?
(I haven't read it either, and am not in the mood)
@HostileFork and author: I'm well aware this is the latest standard as you two are well aware that there is no single compiler out there that implements it in full. GCC comes close but even GCC still doesn't implement it all. And I see you have edited your answer. Good - now I can upvote it. Although you are making his life easy. It's really bad advise to go with vector when you don't know how a regular array works. — Sebastian Cabot 33 secs ago
Sigh.
 
interesting, drives connected to the 2nd SATA 3 controller don't show up in the bios
they work fine though.
I guess just booting from them isn't an option
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Basically, it's a very special case of ranges, and done badly to boot.
 
Ell
@sehe happy birthday!
 
hi. thank you :)
 
Ell
has anyone used sibelius here?
 
3:40 PM
@Ell That's not appropriate. Jean is dead!
@Ell But yeah, superficially. I know the ins and outs of Finale though, and I prefer lilypond
@Ell Anyways, my daughter has earned her "B" certificate (swimming) , so we are in fact celebrating something even today
 
Ell
@sehe just trying to figure out how to make 4 notes have their stems all attached. I don't know music, I'm trying to figure out what it's called
the things that stick up, when you have like 4 in a row there is a line connecting all of these
 
@Ell It's a beam. So you are looking for 'stemming' and 'beaming'. Usually, for vocals every syllable get's it's own beam/flag, but in instrumental music the 'unit of meter' (usually a quarter note) get's a single shared beam
 
Ell
ahh beam, that's the word
 
hey @sehe
 
@Ell I wouldn't have any concrete directives on how to use that in Sibelius (but you can search the help now). I'd know to use [ ... ] in lilypond to mark begin/end of beam :)
 
3:45 PM
@sehe is your birthday today or yesterday?
 
@NikiC Hey. Happy BD? Mine is today, anyhoops
(and I'm due to leave for McDonalds. No, I'm not celebrating in style: this is celebrating my daughters swimming diploma)
 
@sehe then we don't have the same birthday after all ^^
 
Sighs and gives up. I can't make it work. The machinations of @Insilico's Callback mechanism's can't be spanked into shape for runtime use. ;~;
@sehe Also, happy birthday!
 
:)
 
3:47 PM
@sehe but in any case, happy birthday and have fun celebrating :)
 
Are you gonna go pubbing?
 
@ThePhD Who care about runtime? C++ is all about compiletime!
 
Or maybe just have a party?
 
@NikiC Yup
 
@ThePhD what callback mechanism?
 
3:48 PM
@ThePhD None of the above. It will be a quiet night - just the kids in their beds :) And grandma was here for the swimming ceremony
@melak47 "Hollering"
 
@sehe Which one is the B one?
 
@NikiC The second one. There's A,B,C (and then there are the 'specialties' in case you want to go sports swimming/rescue brigade)
 
@sehe How many meters is B?
 
Ok, really gotta go soon.
 
@sehe Kids not being rowdy is actually a pretty sweet present + Grandma = pretty nice too.
 
3:49 PM
@NikiC Many. 6 lanes, full length, various times (techniques).
See you later
 
Peace and quiet... until a GIANT SEA MONSTER APPEARS AND IT'S UP TO SEHE TO BEAT IT DOOWN.
 
@sehe bye :)
 
It works when using MACROS, but if you try to replace the MACRO part with a function, you lose some amount of compile-time constant-ness
 
And then... it all goes to hell. =/
'Twas a nice try, though, I guess, sort of. Maybe. Kind've.
 
3:51 PM
↑ Giant sea monster, and baby sea monster
 
They don't look so bad.
I COULD DEFEAT THAT.
 
oh, very dangerous
 
Looks like a blob
 
Ell
hmm. Is a crotched & quaver allowed together in a chord?
 
@ThePhD couldn't you use std::function and std::bind your callback to the instance of your object? :S
 
@melak47 Don'tdon'tdon'tdont'don'tdon't
 
huh?
 
I went through this whole loop and dodge and roll with like 20 people, including CatPlusPlus and Insilico and nixeagle.
I really don't want to do it again, no matter how wheel-reinventy I may be.
 
you prefer macros over std::bind? :p
 
just lambda is nice
 
3:56 PM
@melak47 chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/10?m=6368348#6368348 <--- The madness starts around here.
It's really only my fault, because stubborn and won't use Tokens like a regular person.
 
@ThePhD More like, "It completely cannot ever work without tokens and all you've done is hack around it in a pointless and extremely limiting fashion."
 
@DeadMG That very well may be true, but I won't stop until one of two things happens: (1) Today ends or (2) I do the impossible.
 
ok then
 
You like wasting time for some reason
There are better ways to do that
They don't involve C++ which is always a plus
 
4:01 PM
I can hear my graphics card whirring when it's running lots and lots of shaders very very fast...is that normal?
 
@CatPlusPlus I'll play a game or something to break up the C++. I mean, right now I'm not doing much anyhow and still getting fat on all the good we cooked on Thanksgiving so.
 
@melak47 It's called a cooling fan
 
then why does the whirring change with fps rather than with temperature or fan speed
 
Fan speed might be regulated dynamically, CPU fans do that too
High load = make the fan go faster
 
but it's not the sound a fan makes. I can set the fan to not change speed, too, the noise still occurs
 
4:04 PM
Check for black holes then, I don't know
 
it's a high pitched electrical sounding noise, not a vacuum cleaner like sound like the fan produces
 
Well, are you sure it's coming from the graphics card? High-frequency noise is short wave and gets bounced around cases/cards easily - it's difficult to localize.
 
You said "whirring", fans whir.
vOv
 
well, I'm not an audio person, I don't know what the damn category of noise is
@MartinJames it happen's when the graphics card is under load. didn't happen with my older card
 
If the graphics card is under load, so is the power supply etc.
 
Ell
4:09 PM
@melak47 it could be caps
 
@MartinJames but it didn't happen with my older card, which used more power
 
Ell
or might not be, I just remember that popping capacitors make a high pitched noise
 
:S
 
Popping capacitors make a bang noise, IME :)
 
Ell
but that wouldn't make sense for it only to happen under load o.O
 
4:11 PM
seems to be the loudest at around 5000 fps worth of running really cheap shaders
 
I think you'd notice a capacitor exploding.
 
periodically gets silent, then comes back at around 2000 fps, and somewhere above 100 fps again, at least that's what I have observed
 
Weird...
 
not really an issue with most things, I don't really need stuff to run at 5000 fps
 
Just replace it.
Invoke a warranty if you still have it.
 
4:13 PM
I do, but I doubt "makes a weird sound" is covered
 
OK, when there is a noise, start prodding around and bending stuff inside the case until the noise stops/changes.
 
o.O
 
@melak47 GPUs don't make noises.
 
OK, 'GENTLY prodding around and bending stuff'
 
High-pitched noise is a symptom of damage.
 
4:15 PM
@CatPlusPlus so they'll totally believe me if I tell them mine does :p
 
It might work for another 10 years or explode tomorrow.
So, what, you never use warranty because your device works differently than it should? I can see how that's logical.
 
actually, seems it's not that uncommon with this particular card
people say it's a coil making that noise
 
4:31 PM
I wanna program a porportional calculator
 
@Crowz ?
 
@melak47 So like, say you have a reference image that's... 4"6", and you're working on a sheet that's 7"9" or something. It scales all the measurements correctly
 
Ell
Hmm. It seems I'm supposed to link against .libs
 
stackoverflow.com/questions/13543019/… anyone want to take a shot at it?
 
Ell
why was I not told this :P
 
4:42 PM
@Ell Linking against .libs? Sounds like autotools.
 
Ell
@StackedCrooked visual studio 2012, I get build errors unless I do
Linking is something I really don't understand. How do you statically link against a dll anyway? o.O
 
Linking is something you are supposed to understand yourself because it's never mentioned in programming class.
 
^ I tried to move the choice of message box function to pure compile time
but it gave me a big preprocessor if-else
i tried a class template thinking that one can write whatever in the non-instantiated specialization, but g++ would have none of it, complaining about indefined things...
is there a better way than the big #if - #else ?
 
#define WINAPI_VISTA_TASKDIALOG_AVAILABLE 0 ? Awesome abstraction.
:P
@Cheersandhth.-Alf That's strange.
 
Out shopping. It's cold!
 
4:48 PM
miserable as fuck here
and every other road is flooded
 
Why doesn't this compile? I though non-instantiated code was not checked?
 
Ell
hmmph. Why does this give access violation!? pastebin.com/dTb7S08y
 
well, G++ is quite correct, in that it's immaterial what you instantiate it with, it can't be well-formed.
 
Actually the compiler message is rather descriptive.
 
just as the compiler can static_assert(false, "") even if you don't instantiate, because it's not gonna matter.
 
@StackedCrooked Do you understand that as well?
 
Not really...
 
Bla is not declared.
 
Neither is blabla but the compiler doesn't complain there.
 
Something may be declared after this site and be found with ADL.
 
4:56 PM
Ah, I see. The rules are quite complicated it seems.
 
I can tell you after the fact what is or isn't valid, but I wouldn't be able to give you the rules!
 
A holdover from C I'm afraid :)
 
Ell
^that Mitchell and webb look is hilarious xD
 
I just realized that I left my auto-refresher on overnight... bleh.
 
5:09 PM
@StackedCrooked but it's difficult to make names from <windows.h> dependent
 
5:26 PM
hey how do I set a PBA on intel ?
 
PBA?
 
pre boot authentication
 
nope :(
 
passowrd authentication before OS boots, any idea ?
 
ask it at superuser
 
5:31 PM
okay
 
5:46 PM
@Failed_Noob BIOS?
 
@Cicada too easy, some sort of partition messing with encryption and what not
 
6:07 PM
@StackedCrooked is there any reason for this restriction? why can't you declare a class template inside a method?
 
@CatPlusPlus I've done iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit!
VIIIIIIIICTORRRRRYYYYYYYYYYY
And it didn't even take the whole day. :D
 
@ThePhD what, exactly?
 
A tokenless, typed Event Dispatcher.
You can remove based on Function Signature - member function or static function - alone.
Without the need for a connection_id or a dispatch_token or a whatever else!
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf ↑ cute stuffed
 
It has 0 (!) Macro use, but does require some explicit use of templates (since type arguments can't be ultra-compiler-deduced away)
Now I just need to do Variadic Templates with it and then hand it back to Insilico.
Thought I still have no idea how to use Variadic Templates. But that's okay, because Learning, woo!
 
6:18 PM
I am in awe - this needs to go inside some tutorial/docs - too valuable to be buried, lost in SO. starred. — kfmfe04 11 hours ago
^ I feel a fanclub burgeoning
 
The Super Sehe Boost Master Club, complete with Remixed Theme Music?
 
fuck
std::transform, why do you exist?
no wonder I've been confuzzled by many things, stupid input and output iterators
 
Looks it up.
Oh eww iterators and shit.
gross. :c
D'AWW CRAP A TYPO.
Just noticed it, now it's too late. ;~;
 
6:34 PM
pwncaked
 
@BeyondSora I hope there's at least a reason for it! I don't it though :P
 
btw
I suddenly feel rather bad
I posted a thing blasting the string_ref proposal, and I suddenly get the feeling I might have overdone it
 
blah blah something about premature blah blah
 
@BeyondSora I believe that in struct A a; the struct keyword is used as a "disambiguator" in C. It's not clear to me how exactly that is different from a forward declaration. One difference would be that disambiguator does not decide which scope the class is defined in.
 
ugghhh
 
Ell
6:39 PM
trlololol
ohh its the count
 
haha
My attempt to copy 4 TB over two USB2 connections last night clearly wasn't going to work.
Apparently it was gonna take over 30 hours - not enough time before my flight tonight.
 
Ell
I wonder if you can PCI copy :P
 
:S
 
So I had to steal my Uncle's laptop to use his USB3.
Now it'll finish in another 6 hours.
 
one! one gigiabyte!
two! two gigabytes!
THREE! THREE gigabytes!
 
Ell
6:42 PM
@Mysticial isn't it the underlying storage method that is usually the bottleneck? i.e. hdd is too slow to saturate usb?
 
@Ell HD speeds have far surpasses that of USB2.
USB3 is 10x faster.
I have yet to see a single HD saturate a USB3.
Maybe an SSD will. But not a mechanical HD.
 
Ell
I have usb3 :3
and an ssd, and a hdd
 
blergh, it's copying with ~50 MB/s right now
 
I thought SSD had better latency but not necessarily better throughput than a SATA drive.
 
SSDs usually have much better throughput
 
6:43 PM
I have USB3 and gigabit in my dorm. But I nothing at home...
So "upgrading" my Anime box from black friday and transferring everything over so I can leave behind the old one turned out to be such a mess.
 
@Mysticial, I looked your y-cruncher site. Awesome name for computers. Ushio & Nagisa :-)
 
@BeyondSora haha
I have newer ones now with other names.
 
Ell
I wish windows wasn't such a pain :(
 
I didn't really intend to name them at first. But when I had more than 4 machines on the network, I needed a way to tell them apart... so what a better way than Anime names. lol
 
6:46 PM
@Mysticial IP addresses, silly :p
 
@melak47 I'm bad with numbers.
 
lol
 
@Mysticial haha well I only have one comp and its name is Hinagiku :-p
 
@BeyondSora My testing sandbox is named "Hina".
 
my computer's named "Desktop", the other one "Laptop", and there's also "Crapbox"
 
6:49 PM
@Mysticial says the guy that calculated PI to x billion digits.
 
Right now I have: (in approximate order of awesomeness)

Kyou - Pentium D
Chihiro - Netbook
Akari - 1st gen Core i7 Laptop
Ushio - 1st gen Core i7 920 Desktop (OC'ed)
Hina - 2nd gen Core i7 2600K Sandy Bridge (OC'ed)
Aria - 4 x AMD Opteron Server
Nagisa - 2 x Xeon 5482 + shitload of ram
I've been looking for a new laptop these last few days. Haven't gotten one yet. Nor have a picked a name for it yet. But "Haruka" seems to pop up to the top of the list.
 
@Mysticial haha :-) that season 2 tortured the hell out of me...
 
@melak47 How original.
 
It's not the Haruka from Haruka no Himitsu.
 
6:53 PM
do these numbers seem right for a regular 7200 RPM HDD?
sequential reads/writes seem relatively fast, but random 512K writes are 2x as fast as reads ? o_O
 
That doesn't look right... The sequential speeds are too high.
 
that's what I thought...200MB? the hell does that happen
 
What drive is it?
 
Seagate something 2TB
 
Any idea how many platters it has?
 
6:56 PM
not really
 
If it's low, then it's really dense platter which would have higher sequential speeds.
 
The SSD drives are around 500Mb/s?
 
@mantler good ones, ideally
 
@mantler Mb/s makes me think you mean megabit.
 
@StackedCrooked Sorry. MB/s.
 

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