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3:00 PM
@LucDanton I think I saw two versions of the same...
:)
 
Xeo
One thing I'd like even more than modules would be truly private data... aka, not having everyone and their dogs recompile their code because I added a private member
 
@Xaade I don't wan to slow my work rate even more...
 
@RMartinhoFernandes sugar coated?
 
Xeo
But I don't think that's really possible, is it?
 
@Xeo That's not feasible with value semantics and no metadata.
 
3:00 PM
@Xeo That's impossible.
 
Hmm, I guess I dug it up myself
 
Maybe we can call it CakeC++
 
Xeo
@Xaade Cake++
 
either you JIT it, or the size has to be known by the compiler
 
@RMartinhoFernandes it's this one I'm talking about: open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2005/n1778.pdf
 
3:01 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes What about moving some code generation at link-time? Obviously exotic compared to the current compilation model though.
 
There's also another one with import as a keyword
 
@DeadMG um.... put new values at the bottom of the memory storage for the class..... not impossible!
 
@LucDanton That doesn't work across library boundaries, does it?
 
@Xaade What memory storage? You don't have any more, you only allocated enough for it's old size.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Kablooie. More seriously though, no such things as libraries according to the Standard. Silly business.
 
3:02 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes sure it would.
 
Xeo
Modules would require a lot of reworking in the compilers, eh?
 
@rubenvb How so?
 
@DeadMG ah?
 
keep templates in a meta-compiled form.
 
@DeadMG Um.... have classes have memory size metadata
 
3:02 PM
And instantiate at "link time"
this will kill recompile and debug times
 
Xeo
@rubenvb Hello export?
 
@Xeo say what?
 
@rubenvb and make link time a living hell.
 
@rubenvb That's an old version.
And honestly, that's not more horrible than things you already have.
 
@Xaade well, I don't see why that's so friggin' slow in the first place
 
3:04 PM
@rubenvb what.
 
Xeo
> namespace << std; // Module import directive.
okay, that looks stupid
 
^ idd
 
@rubenvb That's not what I and Xeo were talking about.
 
exactly my point
 
@rubenvb It wasn't, until you made the linker compile templates.
 
3:05 PM
@Xaade link time really does suck.
 
@Xeo It's far from "excruciatingly ugly and stupid syntax".
 
or maybe just mingw ld sucks
 
@Xeo why would you stream stds into a namespace?
 
And there were at least 5 versions of that proposal.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes huh, am I streaming std to a namespace?
 
3:05 PM
That one is number 2.
 
I'm for import and export. That at least expresses intent.
 
@rubenvb Come on, you have C declarator syntax. This is not worse.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes OK, bear with me... C declarator syntax?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes well, if they're all as good.... then we should just stop trying.
 
int foo[2];
 
Xeo
3:07 PM
> namespace >> Lib { // Module definition.
 
@rubenvb Yes, when you mention "standard horrible C++ syntax", that includes declaration of things like pointers and arrays and function pointers.
 
Xeo
No seriously, this looks stupid.
 
@rubenvb "DIM something", because it used to make sense.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes function pointers are ugly, and by C++11 rendered unnecessary.
 
3:08 PM
@Xeo and now namespace is streaming into a library.
 
and I don't consider holdovers from C, C++
 
function pointers are not C hold-overs
native arrays are C holdovers
std::function<void()> != void(*)()
 
@DeadMG when does the former fail to do its job?
 
possibly when attempting to interact with APIs which take function pointers?
 
3:10 PM
for example
 
@DeadMG that classifies it as a friggin' holdover
 
hey guys
 
and I also believe that function pointers are both smaller and faster than std::function
@rubenvb No, it doesn't.
 
@keithlayne Hey!
 
a holdover only exists in C++ because it came from C
 
3:11 PM
Long time no see.
 
@rubenvb doom over
 
function pointers have to exist in C++ to interact with C code
the two are not the same thing
 
yeah, doing well?
 
function pointers even exist in C#, effectively
 
@Xaade huh?
 
3:11 PM
@DeadMG that's the problem. That C++ cares to interact with C code.
 
@DeadMG They do?
 
Xeo
I like function pointers to function template specializations
 
I don't think you can get a function pointer in unsafe code.
 
It looks like I haven't missed anything :)
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Well, their JIT takes care of the conversion, technically.
 
3:12 PM
@DeadMG ...? delegates?
 
but they do exist
@Xaade No C interaction = no OS APIs = no useful programs.
 
@DeadMG Ah, but not in the language.
 
@DeadMG you don't need function pointers for sane OS C APIs
I hope
 
they would have to have them if they didn't have a JIT, which C++ doesn't
 
@rubenvb Name a sane OS C API.
 
3:13 PM
@DeadMG we need to get past OS written in C.
 
@rubenvb Well, I'm sorry, but there are many useful OS APIs which require function pointers.
@Xaade I agree, but it ain't gonna happen right now.
 
@DeadMG damn. I knew it. Any POSIX/Win32 examples?
 
Argh, I live in the present, guys.
 
One day we'll look back and wonder why windows is still connected to DOS.
 
@rubenvb dlsym.
 
3:13 PM
@rubenvb How about Windows message pumps?
 
ah yes, pthreads
 
@DeadMG enumerate windows/files/folders/...
 
Xeo
How about anything that requires a callback?
 
They're all over the place.
Claiming that you don't need function pointers in the language requires extreme tunnel vision.
 
hmm, never used callbacks.
maybe I'm spoilt by C++
 
3:15 PM
@Xeo that's just lame API that doesn't allow the use of lambdas.
 
@Xaade Hello, C API.
Lots of code out there is written in C.
 
don't forget that OS API's have to be binary compatible
 
You can't just throw it out the window out of some sense of purity.
 
I always felt that the 'superior' (really, more generic) alternative to function pointers is really template<typename T> void foo(T);, i.e. generalized functors (as callbacks, as others have mentioned). Since std::function does type-erasure which is a feature that is very necessary in some cases, but not in others, I feel it doesn't solve the exact same problems as function pointers are wont to do.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Goodbye, C API.
 
3:16 PM
@rubenvb never used WinAPI?
 
@LucDanton They perform the same job, just one of them is compile-time and the other is run-time
 
@rubenvb Passing a custom predicate to an algorithm is using a callback.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I can.... Might not have a job after, but I can.
 
@TonyTheLion only in the 'run this command', and "create a thread", and "fuck with this bastardized locale object" and "give me a friggin' list of files in this directory" kind of way.
 
1 min ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
@Xaade Hello, C API.
 
3:18 PM
@LucDanton ah, C++ used functors for that. Those aren't function pointers are they?
 
Xeo
@rubenvb They can be
 
@rubenvb creating thread without callback..... will suck.
 
no, but you can't template an OS parameter, as they have to be binary compatible
 
Xeo
std::transform(str.begin(), str.end(), str.begin(), ::tolower);
 
@rubenvb Think superset.
 
3:18 PM
@Xaade std::thread doesn't seem to need one.
 
Xeo
idiomatic "to lower case" function
 
yeah, but isn't the connotation of "functor" a function object?
 
@rubenvb You can't pass a functor through a pipe.
 
I don't like the word "functor" for that, but I'm FP-y.
 
@keithlayne I've always taken 'functor' to mean 'something callable'. Concepts, yay!
 
3:19 PM
@LucDanton yeah, same here.
 
"generalized functor"?
 
Callable object.
 
ah, concepts.
 
Functors are things with fmap. :P
 
it's still odd to think of a list as a functor
 
3:20 PM
If you have simple getters or setters with implementation in the header file, then do you need to inline them?
 
@Xaade never used a pipe. I'm a man of simplicity. And gainst the smell.
@StackedCrooked not inside the class IIRC.
 
So, this guy comes up and says "Hey babe, wanna dance?"
 
@RMartinhoFernandes ha. Beat you to it.
In your robot face
 
@StackedCrooked why wouldn't you. Unless you like putting x = y on the call stack.
 
@Xaade inline is not a compiler hint. It's a necessary language keyword for free functions defined in a header. Nothing more.
 
3:22 PM
Anyway, <insert mandatory lecture about getters and setters here>.
@rubenvb It's also a compiler hint (yes, the standard says so).
 
damn getters'n'setters
 
@rubenvb then, you go silent and lone? How dost thou communicate to other processes?
 
If you want the compiler to inline something, use __forceinline or attribute(__always_inline__).
@Xaade I only run simple things, duh. And return codes are holy :)
 
that doesn't force inlining at all
 
@Xaade beans, duh :)
 
3:23 PM
MSVC's docs explicitly mention several cases in which inlining doesn't happen
 
Is there a compiler where you can actually force inlining all the time?
 
probably not.
 
I thought __always_inline__ was always
 
@Pubby it is
GCC errors if it can't inline an always_inline
well, it should, otherwise the devs consider it a bug
not sure about __forceinline, last I remember msdn was hazy on the subject
 
So why is there no compiler that forces inlining? :S
 
3:25 PM
And if it can't you're back to good ole inline.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes which does exactly squat.
but I'm ranting
again
abusing the internets, the doctor said.
 
@Pubby I'm guessing because that would make optimization harder.
only a guess...
 
If you inline everything you get... bloat!
 
AMAGAD NOES BLOAT!
 
Als
@TonyTheLion: Hola! How you been Mr. Horny Lion?
 
Als
@DeadMG: Hey pups trying to be cute? :P
 
@Als I'm good, yourself?
 
I have to try? I'm a puppy
 
lol
He's not generally being that cute
 
3:29 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes where'd that come from? Your giant steel robot anus?
 
Als
@TonyTheLion: Im well, thanks. Hows the new job and all?
 
@Als Nay bad
 
@rubenvb I'm made of plastic.
 
Als
@DeadMG: Pups grow up to become scary dogs!
 
@RMartinhoFernandes oh, yes the non-biodegradable sort (I read upwards)
@Als when that happens, I just put them down.
 
Als
3:31 PM
Giant Steel Robot Anus phew....
 
euh
wut?
Didn't know robots were even in need of an anus???
 
class Fatty { always_inline Water() { int water = 1; } };
Fatty: Why do I always feel bloated?
Compiler: Because you're holding too much water!
Ka-doosh!
 
Als
@RMartinhoFernandes: Are you in need of one Mr Bot?
 
3:32 PM
doesn't Bender have an anus?
 
I think we're getting too personal for our bot...
the robot said it
 
Als
@TonyTheLion: Personal and touchy about his private parts
But well In C++ Friends have access to private parts. And We are bots friends
 
0
Q: Why Microsoft corporation breaks C++ rules and put their own in MSVC++?

codekiddyDid you know that throw specification list is ignored in visual studio for years now. LINK1 LINK2 not only this! they include headers into another headers in their flavor, they change the standard as they want just like that. what else? I would like to know what else rules are ignored in MSVC+...

Poor kiddy, MS wrecked his world.
 
Als
LOL
 
3:35 PM
 
Als
I guess he just woke up to realize that and now he feels MS cheated him.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes He should learn English before complaining
 
this would imply Bender has an anus
 
Come on, bashing on non-native speakers again?
 
oops Question closed
 
Als
3:36 PM
Swiftly voted to delete already.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I'm not native either...
 
Als
Whos bashing native speakers?
 
but my English is pretty good
 
@TonyTheLion So that gives you that right. I see.
 
Als
*Swipes his basebaaaal bat
 
3:37 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes yes that gives me that right :P
 
Als
Do I get the right too/
 
Als
rather do I qualify?
:P
 
@RMartinhoFernandes did I offend you?
@Als donno, for you to make out
 
@TonyTheLion No, don't worry.
I'm pretty tolerant, even of intolerance.
:P
 
Als
3:39 PM
@TonyTheLion: Make out? with whom?
 
ah, ok
 
Als
:P
 
@Als oh, not sexually
 
Als
I am going to star that @TonyTheLion actually saying Not Sexually
 
just make out whether you qualify to bash non-native English speakers
 
Als
3:40 PM
@TonyTheLion: Sex is your word dude!
 
@Als parse error
 
Als
Uhm Corrected
 
Als
mmmh No?
 
In biology, sex is a process of combining and mixing genetic traits, often resulting in the specialization of organisms into a male or female variety (each known as a sex). Sexual reproduction involves combining specialized cells (gametes) to form offspring that inherit traits from both parents. Gametes can be identical in form and function (known as isogametes), but in many cases an asymmetry has evolved such that two sex-specific types of gametes (heterogametes) exist: male gametes are small, motile, and optimized to transport their genetic information over a distance, while female ga...
lol
 
sbi
3:42 PM
@Als It misses a comma, I think.
@TonyTheLion Oneboxing fail.
 
@sbi true, sex and it shows fish
damnit :(
 
Als
@sbi: Grammar Nazi?
 
Insect porn!
 
I wonder if there's a species of fish called "sex-fish"?
@RMartinhoFernandes LOL
 
Als
@TonyTheLion: That pic needs to be obeserved closely, probably those fish are having it
 
3:44 PM
 
@TonyTheLion I read "mixing generic traits" first :)
 
¬_¬ what have you guys been smoking?
 
Als
@TonyTheLion: None. But theres a thing called sex after you fish.
 
@FredOverflow like in TMP?
 
Als
or sex after you eat Fish
 
3:44 PM
@Als hmmm
 
Als
Eh, You are becoming boring, All you say today is hmmmm
 
> Clownfish are initially male; the largest fish in a group becomes female.
interesting
 
Als
uh Male becomes Female..
 
@FredOverflow wut?? they transform during their lifetime?
 
3:46 PM
@FredOverflow If clowns did that in the circus, I would go to see that
 
Als
Like one fine day, the poor guy drops his pants and dang its gone!
 
@Als Apparently, Tony The Tiger is not a tiger at all; he's a hmmming bird!
 
@Als can't help I'm a guy of very little words
 
this isn't that shocking, frogs do it plenty
 
sbi
Didn't we discuss some species switching sex only yesterday?
 
3:46 PM
it is often a one way process though
 
@TonyTheLion Yeah. "sex", and little more.
 
@sbi but it's such a freaky subject, it deserves a repost
 
@sbi oh I missed that :(
 
Als
@TonyTheLion: You used to be a guy of not safe at work words
 
@Als I've changed
 
3:47 PM
@TonyTheLion damn censorship
 
Als
@TonyTheLion: uhm? Why? You were a fine Tiger then and now you are a hmmming bird!
 
A sex-determination system is a biological system that determines the development of sexual characteristics in an organism. Most sexual organisms have two sexes. Occasionally there are hermaphrodites in place of one or both sexes. There are also some species that are only one sex due to parthenogenesis, the act of a female reproducing without fertilization. In many cases, sex determination is genetic: males and females have different alleles or even different genes that specify their sexual morphology. In animals, this is often accompanied by chromosomal differences. Determination geneti...
 
@Als he a lion ¬_¬
 
@Als yes, well, sometimes, things need a little changing
 
Als
3:49 PM
@thecoshman: Who was a tiger before he was a Lion.
 
@thecoshman a humming bird in disguise :P (oops I've stolen @sbi's line)
 
sbi
@TonyTheLion Start reading the transcript here.
 
huh, I always just assume you where male @Tony it just dawned on me that Tony could be a girls name too
@sbi glad to see your working hard :P
 
Als
@thecoshman: Be assured @TonyTheLion is a Male and a very horny one
haha
 
@sbi oh that discussion
@Als well thanks for the description there :P
 
3:50 PM
@Als have you been on the wrong side of it :O
 
@thecoshman some here, can confirm I'm male. @sbi for example
 
Als
@thecoshman: No No. He is straight
 
@thecoshman if that's referencing what I think it is, no I'm not like that
 
@TonyTheLion to me, @sbi sounds like a males name
@TonyTheLion :P
 
@thecoshman lol
 
sbi
3:52 PM
@thecoshman Since I have met them in person, I can confirm that @Tony, @Konrad, @Björn, and @Xeo are male.
 
Or appear to be.
 
Als
goddamn!! my display image gives it away or earlier people in this room use to be nice to me thinking I am a she ...damn good old days!
 
@Als that doesn't parse
 
@sbi thanks for crushing any doubt I might have had :D
 
Als
@TonyTheLion: Your parser shucks.
 
3:53 PM
@TonyTheLion it made sense to me :S
 
anyone know how CTest works? Simple is all I need
 
@sbi I don't even think I mentioned sex when we talked IRL
 
but then what I try to type often comes out like a cat walking on the keyboard
 
I can't get it to add my CXXFLAGS
add_test("math/numerical_traits.cxx" ${CMAKE_CXX_COMPILER} "-std=c++11 -I${KISS_SOURCE_DIR}/include" numerical_traits)
 
@Als lol, now I get it. (I have been told in the past I"m slow, so forgive me)
hmmmm
 
Als
3:55 PM
Is @sbi, as scary in real as in his display image?
pls comfirm @TonyTheLion a.k.a Hmming bird
 
@Als yes :P
 
Als
haha
A bonobo in human form eh
 
Als
cool He sounds scary too, most of the times, even in here!
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes I know, definitions of male/female have become somewhat fuzzy in the last few decades. I didn't ask them to let their pants down to check. The typical indicators of maleness I have seen in those four (while they were dressed) is enough for me to classify them as male. YMMV, though.
 
3:57 PM
@Als how is his display pic scary? it's a chilled out guerrilla
 
sbi
@thecoshman I'm not a Latin partisan!
 
Als
@thecoshman: piss the ape sometime and then check again the pic might seem different then :P
 
@sbi metrosexual ¬_¬
@sbi did I get the wrong word?
 
@thecoshman That's not a gender.
 
sbi
@thecoshman Oh, but that wouldn't happen to you now, would it?
 
3:58 PM
@thecoshman is that a windows 8 feature?
 
sbi
@Als That's because I'm used to dealing with naughty kids.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes no, it's this strange movement where men take up more feminine ways.
 
@thecoshman it's called gay
 
aaaargh cmake is horrible.
 
@TonyTheLion lol
 
Als
3:59 PM
@sbi Yes, In real world and in here too!
 

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