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3:00 PM
@DeadMG that's not true. Its again, that thing where not-so-good programmers choose to work on PHP, and the language gets the bad name.
 
the problem is that it is a half-assed and crippled attempt at making something stateless look as if it had state
 
@jalf: well, what else would you recommend?
 
PHP doesn't do automatic crap, the language sure does have its problems though.
 
@Raze: You have to manually output the HTML in standard PHP, that's as bad as it gets
WebForms at least accomplishes something
 
@DeadMG treat your html like html. Don't pretend that it's winforms
2
 
3:01 PM
ugh just that acronym PHP gives me the shivers....
 
PHP is terrible from the grammar to the official implementation.
 
PHP, the language with mysql_escape_string and mysql_real_escape_string.
 
or, if you insist on doing so, come up with an abstraction that works
 
PHP, the language with a configuration file.
 
well, it certainly does have state, especially the state that I might choose to dynamically create
 
3:02 PM
I'm looking forward to mysql_this_time_its_really_for_real_and_i_mean_it_escape_string
 
for example, based on a database query
 
@DeadMG PHP is a server language. There are frameworks that do automatic output for you. Before PHP, you had to write a program that had print statements that output HTML.
 
@DeadMG the individual button on your page doesn't have state across requests
 
@jalf: The existence of the button itself is state
 
pretending that it's the same button at all is just ridiculous
 
3:03 PM
It's a client state, not a server state.
 
@Raze: Funny, because in PHP, you still have to do that, whereas Webforms is nice, statically typed, object orientated, and comes with it out the box
 
Abstracting HTML away is not always a good idea. It bloats the HTML like anything.
 
@DeadMG and "the existence of the button" is basically the problem. "The button" doesn't have a singular existence across requests
 
Also comparing language to the framework is meaningless.
 
it doesn't have an identity across requests
 
3:04 PM
@jalf: That's the big problem, because it certainly needs one
 
@DeadMG then you should use silverlight or flash or something
 
@MartinhoFernandes Its confusing, but there are some uses too. null is an object in JavaScript!
 
I create a button in response to a DB query, and I need to know which query created it
just for example
 
HTML is fundamentally a document description language
 
@Raze And how does that help? I mean, why would I want them both?
 
3:05 PM
@CatPlusPlus exactly.
 
similar content on two separate documents don't have a common identity
 
oh, I don't disagree with that
 
I don't remember ever doing stateful web apps, persistent data is recorded in DB/cache and discarded at the end of the request.
 
that's why I think that it should be mostly chucked now
it's not exactly designed for the interactive, dynamic pages which users expect
 
@DeadMG no, dynamic pages are fine
it can handle that. What it isn't suited for is applications
and asp is a flawed attempt at making the former look like the latter
 
3:07 PM
Why do you think it's called WebForms?
 
and my key criticism is in the word "flawed". If the abstraction had worked it wouln't be so bad
@MartinhoFernandes to indicate that it was an attempt at making the web look like winforms?
 
@MartinhoFernandes You could actually speaking, live with only one. But I sometimes use it to mark variables that were removed (like from the middle of an array) vs. ones that were never added.
 
I don't really see why storing state on the server would be that insane
 
@DeadMG because it wouldn't solve the problem
 
why not? you wouldn't need a ViewState or anything like that
 
3:09 PM
the problem is that the state is inconsistent, fragile and doesn't map to what the user is actually doing in the browser
 
@Raze So, it's useful as a kludge when you pick the wrong data structure?
 
Hm, thinking more about it, sessions are state, but it's usually just user identity.
 
@DeadMG Once again, this doesn't solve my main problem with it, but going along with it, what if I open the same page twice? They need to keep their states separate.
If I change the state on a button, only the browser sees it. Pretending otherwise gives you all th pain of viewstate
 
ok
 
until I submit the document to the server, that is
 
3:11 PM
so what do you think the right idea is?
 
hi guys
 
Avoiding doing web, because it's ugly anyway? :P
 
ASP.NET MVC has no ViewState.
 
@DeadMG pragmatically speaking? Use html the way it is intended, send documents to the user, and allow them to interact with the server by sending requests
 
In fact, it was one of the design goals: kill ViewState.
 
3:12 PM
so keep your state on the client, and only send back what you need to the server
 
or write your code to run on the client, in javascript, so you can keep state on the client where it makes logical sense
 
what is the problem?
 
or use silverlight, if you want a really "application-like" environment'
 
yeah, I'd be a lot more inclined to use Javascript, if it didn't suck so hard
 
@MartinhoFernandes That doesn't happen much, because developers not so good at datastructures don't really even know that undefined is different from null.
 
3:13 PM
it's not a bad language imo
 
WebForms is at least statically typed, object orientated, for example
 
the HTML dom is mainly what makes it look bad
 
But I agree that you could totally live without 2 nulls.
 
Javascript does what it does.
 
@DeadMG so? Are those properties intrinsically better?
 
3:14 PM
well, yes
much less bug-inducing, for one
 
Most of what's not to like about Javascript comes when you try to make it do what it's not meant to do.
 
js is a reasonably nice nice dynamically typed language with OOP and FP features
 
@DeadMG ASP.NET MVC has all those properties. No ViewState.
 
But it also does present some interesting ways of donig stuff.
 
@Martinho: I've never used MVC, so
no, no
 
3:15 PM
function (a, b, c)
 
dynamic typing is BAD
 
got a good rant going :)
 
@Raze Personally I could live with none.
 
it's slow, it's buggy, etc
 
@DeadMG Cuts both ways. Dynamic typing enables you to express some problems simpler and more intuitively, which gives you fewer bugs
 
3:15 PM
has the user passed c as null or was it not passed?
 
if you need variable types, then you can use inheritance
or, .NET 4 has dynamic
 
Better than VB variant
 
except the inheritance sucks and pretty much throws away compile-time type safety as well
 
@DeadMG but what also comes with it is ducktyping.
 
1 min ago, by DeadMG
dynamic typing is BAD
 
3:16 PM
inheritance doesn't throw away compile-time safety
 
@MartinhoFernandes I don't think so, you'll end up defining your own null
 
really? Tell that to the pre-generics Java containers
 
especially where as is concerned, which is dynamic_cast in .NET
 
array of Objects
 
.NET has generics
 
3:17 PM
but generics arent inheritance, which is what we were discussing
 
C++ has templates :)
 
Why dynamic typing would be bad? Weak typing is bad.
 
sounds to me like you just reject anything you're less used to
 
and templates can inherit
 
@Raze Which I could make do more interesting stuff than blow up in my face.
 
3:18 PM
yeah, but the problem that you just brought up is solved
 
dynamic typing?
 
hey, I worked in Lua, which is a dynamically typed language, for two years
 
Go use some different languages for a while :)
 
more time than I've worked in C++
 
what is dynamic typing?
 
3:19 PM
goddammit, need to send my laptop off for repairs. Keyboard is screwy
 
how long have you programming @DeadMG?
 
It's typing that's dynamic, duh.
 
@jalf, the actionscript implementation of JavaScript has type safety and "proper" inheritance.
 
since early 2007
 
or you could just make a char* array treat it like a byte array, and put whatever data you want in it. Imaginary type is better than static type. FTW.
 
3:19 PM
oh I see
 
@Xaade: Imaginary type, lol
 
In a static typing, one variable can only ever have one type.
In a dynamic one, variables don't have types, only values do.
 
the fact is that in the vast, vast majority of situations, variables only ever have one type anyway, it's just ineffable
 
javascript is dynamic typing and php too
 
@omnosis A variable is really a variable. At one moment it may be an integer, and an object in the next.
 
3:20 PM
is that right?
 
Imaginary Typing, a programming paradigm :P :)
 
anyway, I find both inheritance and dynamic typing to be awful in terms of preventing you from catch bugs at compile time. But the latter at least gives you some convenience in return
k, gotta run, seeya
 
I really don't see what all the whining is for. Go code in assembly; grow a pair.
 
Unless it's weak typing, then type of the value is more or less useless.
 
@CatPlusPlus That's PHP, right?
 
3:20 PM
@Xaade: If I could code in assembly for client-side scripting?
maybe you could write some kind of converter
 
@MartinhoFernandes Yes, PHP's typing is weak and dynamic. JavaScript's too.
 
from a more useful, less buggy language
 
@DeadMG A assembly exe IS client side.... by definition.
 
but it's not in-browser scripting
 
C++ is considered weak static, AFAIK.
 
3:21 PM
@DeadMG Get a man's browser :P
 
Python is strong dynamic. Haskell is strong static.
 
@DeadMG Then go write a browser that can take assembly as script language..... wuss
 
what do you want to do with javascipt/silverlight...??
@Xaade good idea :D
 
lol
 
@CatPlusPlus you're confusing me
 
3:22 PM
Dynamic typing itself is not bad, just pairing it with a weak type system is a bad idea.
 
Hey, I'll write a javascript script that interprets assembly for you.
 
Because it introduces a whole new bunch of possible bugs.
 
JavaScript was actually made as a lisp in browser (scheme in browser rather), but the name JavaScript and the fact that more people know object oriented style (Java, .Net kind of OOP) of programming rather than functional caused a lot of misunderstanding in the JavaScripting world.
 
@TonyTheTiger Static = determined at compile-time. Dynamic = determined at runtime.
 
Which is why it is titled "The world's most misunderstood language" by some.
 
3:23 PM
@Xaade it would be resource wasting
 
honestly? I don't really care
give static types and we'll talk
 
@Raze Really.... I thought it was some African language. You know, the one with all the clicking sounds.
 
@MartinhoFernandes thx for clarifying :)
 
@TonyTheTiger Strong = everything has a well-defined known type. Weak = the type of a variable is at best a nebulous thing.
 
@omnosis So is a .NET virtual machine.
 
3:24 PM
@Xaade There's been a link to some emulator written in JavaScript.
 
@MartinhoFernandes my life is weakly typed, very nebulous :)
 
I don't remember if it's x86, or something else.
 
@Xaade don't know about that, don't know African ;)
 
In computer science, a type system may be defined as "a tractable syntactic framework for classifying phrases according to the kinds of values they compute". A type system associates types with each computed value. By examining the flow of these values, a type system attempts to prove that no type errors can occur. The type system in question determines what constitutes a type error, but a type system generally seeks to guarantee that operations expecting a certain kind of value are not used with values for which that operation does not make sense. A compiler may use the static type of ...
 
so in summary, I think JavaScript sucks donkey balls
 
3:26 PM
what is the problem?
 
@CatPlusPlus What are the weak parts of C++? The fact that at runtime everything is just a bunch of bytes?
 
@Martinho: RTTI says you lie
 
@MartinhoFernandes Implicit conversions and promotions, I'd say.
 
Hmm... What do you think of writing your web side scripting in Java, and then have it converted to JavaScript by a compiler?
 
Essentially you can put whatever you want into an int, and interpret it however you want, and write your own functions to compute however you want on ints. Weak type.
I could put a string into several ints
 
3:27 PM
interesting I'm learning here :)
 
@Raze waste of time?
 
Work on that, and you'll learn to love JavaScript.
 
GWT is cool if you already know and are used to Java and its ecosystem.
 
@Xaade Ok, that fits.
 
@Raze i love it because damn easy but sometimes i really need the "strong" typing..
 
3:28 PM
@Raze: If it was .NET or C++ instead of Java?
I'd pay for that
 
@CatPlusPlus GWT is cool if you know know Java, are good at HTML, and are an expert in CSS
@DeadMG I'm not for language to language compilers, unless the target language really sucks and coding in the source language is faster / better.
 
int i = 'a'; i += 'b' - 'a'; char c = (char)i; cout << c;
 
@Raze I wouldn't say you need to be an expert in CSS (hell, it's arcane), but obviously you need to know HTML and CSS to be writing it.
 
output:
b
 
@Raze: Javascript does really suck, and coding in Java would be at least somewhat faster/better
 
3:30 PM
Casts are possible in strong typing, too.
 
@CatPlusPlus But not reinterpret_cast.
 
@DeadMG My experience is otherwise, unless one doesn't know javascript
My previous company used to use GWT, and put in people who knew Java, absolutely no JavaScript, and basic HTML and CSS.
 
C-Style casts aren't casts, they are, "It's whatever I want it to be, bleep"
3
 
part of sucking is determined by the quantity of experience required
guess how much experience I needed to start building a web application with WebForms? none
 
And I got into trouble because I was kinda good at CSS, but wasn't an expert.
 
3:31 PM
@DeadMG And to complete it?
 
@Martinho: I got a teammate to do the CSS and it was done :p
what happens if you access a control that doesn't exist, or a variable or property that doesn't exist? Compiler catches it
 
@DeadMG you knew winforms before it?
 
I'm not much of a scientist. :P
 
no
 
@DeadMG There's a C#-to-JavaScript compiler. Not sure how good it is, but just thought you might be interested.
 
3:32 PM
although I did a little WPF and obviously I knew C++ before hand
 
@CatPlusPlus so what are you then?
 
@TonyTheTiger Code cat?
Striking fail.
 
It's three dashes.
 
hi
 
sbi
@TonyTheTiger Obviously, @CatPlusPlus is an incremented cat. Like a cat on steroids.
 
3:34 PM
Oh fuck it.
 
I'd more think of it as a genetically mutated cat
 
lol
 
sbi
@CatPlusPlus That doesn't sound very monkish anyway. :P
 
@TonyTheTiger It is defined by an overloaded operator.
 
@sbi CatPlusPlus++... Sounds a bit redundant!
 
3:35 PM
@sbi is incrementing a Cat defined behavior on a Cat?
 
@TonyTheTiger Feeding a cat increments it.
 
@Raze: The massive benefits of transferrability of skills that .NET offers and JavaScript definitely does not offer, whatsoever, at all, is definitely a big plus
 
Until it overflows.
 
@CatPlusPlus I see, interesting
 
sbi
@Xaade Yeah, I know. (Then why did you write it?)
 
3:36 PM
@CatPlusPlus I think it decrements itself from time to time.
 
@sbi No more reason than saying ATM machine.
 
HTML is redundant
 
@TonyTheTiger why?
 
@MartinhoFernandes That would be excrement.
 
sbi
@TonyTheTiger I dunno. And I won't try. Cats can become bloody furious when you try to do things to them they don't like.
 
3:37 PM
@sbi sure enough, have personal experience
 
@Xaade: We just call them cash machines here
 
sbi
@Xaade Yeah, but I did not say anything redundant.
 
@omnosis cause I find it annoying
 
@omnosis Because <tag></tag>.
 
sbi
@TonyTheTiger Ever tried to give a cat a pill? :)
 
3:37 PM
@sbi yep
 
@sbi Like cianide?
 
@MartinhoFernandes no, thats horrible
 
@DeadMG it is for the developer. I have seen one site that uses webforms (and poor coding of course), that takes over a minute to load the first page when the server gets slightly loaded.
 
I put a cat on a treadmill once...
 
poor cat :(
 
3:38 PM
And it allows errors like <tag1><tag2></tag1></tag2>.
 
sbi
@TonyTheTiger AND YOU SURVIVED?!
 
@Raze: A site that's poorly coded is poorly coded, and not a good example of anything
 
Apparently cats don't anticipate moving floors.
 
@CatPlusPlus Not HTML. Browsers do.
 
That's an extreme case, but many, many webforms take >30s to load.
 
3:38 PM
@CatPlusPlus first: the HTML dosent allow this ! the browser allow this...
 
Land on your feet now cat!!
 
@sbi I'm a tiger, pussy's can't hurt me :P
 
@MartinhoFernandes I don't know, SGML didn't require them not to, AFAIR.
 
Trust me, our remote browser gets a lot of sites that we have to support.
 
I've never read SGML spec, though, maybe not.
 
3:39 PM
and then, html is looks like <tag></tag> because this is a markup not a programming language, and it describes information... but
 
XML disallows it explicitly, that much I know.
 
i think html can be redunant because you need a lot of divs to format your page nicely
 
Ending tag can be inferred from context, it's just oververbosity.
 
HTML can't disallow anything. Its standard can, but thanks to IE, that's like throwing dust to the wind.
 
your word cannot disallow anything. you can say asd23esad and what?
 
3:40 PM
@CatPlusPlus enter XHTML and HTML5.
 
Or maybe I should've said, "if the ending tag weren't explicit, mixing ending tags wouldn't be even possible, and didn't require any care".
 
html is similar
 
though browsers still forgive.
 
and maybe an african can understand random words but not veryone...
 
sbi
@TonyTheTiger I like Pratchett's assessment of Schrödinger's experiment. Something like: Which state a cat locked into a box is in becomes apparent the moment you open the box: Bloody furious.
 
3:41 PM
@Raze Is HTML5 an XML application? I wasn't interested enough to care.
 
@CatPlusPlus Implicit ending tags??? ZOMG... headache.
 
@CatPlusPlus not
 
sbi
Only Pratchett says it so much more eloquently.
 
@CatPlusPlus html5 is an interface to create standard web applications. with html5 you can create canvas and it has native supported functions for faster / better performance
 
@CatPlusPlus HTML5 has different DOCTYPES, some of them being XML AFAIR
 
3:42 PM
@sbi Schrödinger's experiment is the reason I hate quantum physics.
 
@omnosis That sounds like something marketing would say.
 
It's absurd.
I can hear the dam cat.
 
sbi
@Xaade Well, so here's some consolation for you: It was a thought experiment.
 
@Xaade :))
 
lol
 
3:43 PM
And anyone who thinks that something doesn't have a valid state until it's observed.... is.... ludicrous.
 
@Xaade Is it leaking?
 
sbi
@CatPlusPlus The dam cat is walking the dam, looking for leaks.
 
If that were true...... if no one existed, would anything happen, because there's no one to observe.
Answer..... who the hell cares, no one exists.
 
sbi
@Xaade Are you sure your "I hate quantum physics" wasn't an euphemism?
 
@sbi I don't see how it could be. What else could be said. I *bleep*ing hate quantum physics.
 
3:46 PM
@sbi, sorry, HTML5 has only one doctype, but it is comptible with XHTML (is a valid XML)
 
Argh, every time sidebar updates the times, I keep looking for new starred things.
 
You want me to assume that a system is stateless or rather occupies multiple states, until observed, at which point it collapses to a finite state. WTH. So what would the state be if no observer existed???
 
Don't blink.
 
in real world if you talk to a people you want to understand his phrases. right? if he has grammar mistakes you dont say him "Stop you have a grammar mistake! You need to correct the sentence!". no. you try to figure out what would the sentence mean. the html is similar.
 
@Xaade, for a person who hates quantum physics, you do know it well.
 
3:47 PM
I'd rather believe that the state is determinable, but assessing the state changes it.
 
I wonder what will happen when quantum computers become a reality, if it ever will.
 
@Raze Hate is a strong word. I make sure I'm reasonable for hating something.
 
@Xaade That's not Schroedinger, that's Heisenberg.
 
@Raze All algorithms will reduce to O(n)
 
@Raze No, that's not Heisenberg. That's quantum theory.
 
3:49 PM
@Raze the difference?
 
@Xaade Some believe.
 
@Raze Not likely.
Algorithms are multipass for a reason. Quantum machines will simply guess the answer enough times until they think they are certain they are right.
 
sbi
@Xaade Oh, there's much more to be said than that: stackoverflow.com/questions/5355708/psd-file-format/…
@Raze What are you babbling to me about HTML? :)
 
@sbi Parse error!
 
(((Which state (a cat locked into a box) is in) becomes apparent (the moment you open the box)): (Bloody furious)).
@TonyTheTiger I LISPyfied it for you.
 
3:51 PM
@MartinhoFernandes I don't know LISP
or scheme
 
@TonyTheTiger Just follow the parens.
 
@sbi :) Haven't been keeping in touch
 
@MartinhoFernandes I get it
lulz
@Raze so that's why you rant some random HTML stuff at him
I'm sure he'll be most pleased about that sarcasm
 
Scheme is basically Lisp, just with a different set of fanboys.
2
 
@CatPlusPlus ohh
 
3:53 PM
@TonyTheTiger ain't so random, a correction to an incorrect recollection of my memory.
 
(If there are any Lispers/Schemers here: yeees, I know, there are more differences, don't eat me).
 
@CatPlusPlus are LISP'ers as anal as us C++ people?
 
@Cat, I'm used to some dialects.
 
@TonyTheTiger We have cats and gorillas, they have dinosaurs.
 
Reminds me of the last 6 lines of one of the Lisp programs that I once saw:
" ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
))
)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
))))))))))))))))))))
)))))"
 
3:55 PM
(I've never considered Lisp for real just because of the attitude of those who use it.)
 
@MartinhoFernandes Which (condition check) state (state containing variable) a cat (object) locked (state) into a box (container) becomes apparent (operator) the moment (state containing variable) you open (method) the box (object): Bloody Furious (state)
There.... I OOed it
 
I've actually seen one say "C++ or Python or whatever programmers don't say their language is perfect. We do, so our language must be perfect."
Paraphrased from memory.
 
@CatPlusPlus Heap corruption!!!
 
ahem Lies!!!
 
3:57 PM
@CatPlusPlus Some of them must be betamax users. Their OS of choice is OpenVMS running on an Alpha box.
 
@CatPlusPlus :)) really?
 
@Raze Sadly, yes.
I get that "our language is so perfect" vibe from that community a lot.
 
They must be tired after matching all the parens.
correctly
 
They argue that they don't see the parens, and you should be using Emacs anyway.
 
@CatPlusPlus Blasphemy! You should be using vim.
2
 
4:01 PM
But vim is not programmable with Lisp!
 
They're partially blind? Or do they use a font where parens are not rendered??
 
And doesn't break your fingers in inventive, horrible ways of multiple shortcuts all over the keyboard.
 
@Raze they're selectively blind for parens
 
Ok, time to go. bye
 
I think parts of your brain melt, and you can't recognise a parenthesis afterwards.
 
4:03 PM
:))
 
@CatPlusPlus How do they use smileys?
 
@MartinhoFernandes I don't know. I don't want to know. I don't want to be ever involved in that madness.
 
You need to be doing 5 things every day:
Hacking
Taking notes
Hacking
Teaching other people what you know
Talking about what you don’t know
Rewriting everything you did previously
Contributing to open source projects
Hacking
lol
 
@MartinhoFernandes (smiley:) , (:smiley), and when they're really happy, (smiley (:)) ?
 
4:26 PM
hi all
whats up?
 
Als
4:46 PM
hello
 
@Xaade afaik, his "experiment" was to illustrate why he hated this interpretation of quantum physics too
 
5:24 PM
 

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