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sbi
9:01 PM
@CatPlusPlus Should you ever reach 10k rep, it will most definitely be before the end of the year. The only open question is: which year?
 
Xeo
Ohh 11 questions till 70k c++ questions
 
@FredOverflow Heh, I don't think I've seen higher-scored answer on SO yet.
@sbi The world will supposedly end by October this year, so it's either that or nothing. ;)
 
@CatPlusPlus Wasn't it 12/24/2012 or something?
 
@FredOverflow The new cool thing, it's supposed to start on May 21st and end with FIRE AND EVERYTHING on October somethingth.
@FredOverflow This, to be precise.
 
sbi
@Tony: How does one invite someone to careers?
 
Xeo
9:11 PM
@Cat OMG...
 
Ah, here's what I meant:
 
@sbi you email support and ask to be given an invitation so you can invite someone
 
Xeo
@Tony Geh. They really care who has a CV up there, eh? ...
 
sbi
@TonyTheTiger support @ SO?
 
Xeo
@sbi Don't bother then, it'll probably be faster for me to wait for their "approval"
 
9:14 PM
You need an invitation for Careers? I made an account when it was new, and it's still active.
 
sbi
@Tony: Nevermind, found the link.
 
@sbi look for a contact link on careers.se
@CatPlusPlus yea but you can't do much, you have to be explicitly invited, I had to invite @sbi for him to get full access
 
sbi
@CatPlusPlus I applied, but never got a response. I probably annoyed Jeff too badly. :)
 
man
I hate team projects at university
bunch of useless, hypocritical whiners
 
sbi
@DeadMG It's not like you wouldn't whine here once in a while. :) (Prolog, anybody?)
 
9:16 PM
heh
I am neither useless nor hypocritical
 
sbi
@DeadMG I didn't say you were. :)
 
or generally stupid, I mean, there's a difference between not seeing something, and "We should do X because other groups have done so"
true enough
 
@TonyTheTiger What do you mean by full access?
 
Xeo
@DeadMG: ahh, they joy of unknowledged teammember...
 
well
 
9:19 PM
@TonyTheTiger I can make profile public and searchable, looks full to me. :P
 
sbi
BTW, @Dead, I saw your statement about fast food, but was too distracted to react to it immediately. What made the difference?
 
I have many pieces of coursework to do, and they all seem to be insulted that I don't dedicate 100% of the time
@sbi: Chips, I think
 
sbi
@DeadMG Huh?
 
well
normally I disdain chips and purchase a burger and ice cream
but I realized that last time, I purchased chips in addition
so I figured that if I went back to my previous habit of not purchasing chips, it may explain why last time went wrong and the four previous times did not
 
sbi
Ah, I see. Well, chips are pretty fatty. And fat seems to be an important factor for the stomach problems I sometimes have.
 
9:22 PM
I think that full fat yoghurt and a burger and ice cream is pretty fatty :P
anyway, I haven't finished bitching about my teammates
 
sbi
@DeadMG You will upset your stomach if you do that! :)
 
they asked me to complete an initial website design for Friday, which I completed (technically early saturday morning) and then more pages for Wednesday (tomorrow) pending feedback
 
sbi
@DeadMG That's true. But Yoghurt seems actually good for your digestive system.
 
but since they didn't feed back to me before lunchtime on Monday, then I've had little time to deal with it
yeah, I love me some yoghurtses :P
and you know what they said?
"Well, it would be better if you could make it look more like Amazon, we saw some other groups and they ripped off Amazon"
and I'm like, well, great, so we're going to rip off a general-purpose e-tailer to generate a site for a specific niche e-tailer because some other people made that choice?
 
sbi
@DeadMG (I hope you're talking about the pure stuff, not the sweet brew that they add some yogurt to.)
 
9:26 PM
it is most assuredly natural greek yoghurt
 
sbi
@DeadMG Ah, good. :)
 
and my team projects group is pathetic too
I must fix every problem
oh, and I'm doing one major component, and my teammates seem to think that this cannot happen in parallel
so I must basically fix all the minor components because my team is incapable of doing it, and then do a major component, all in time for the rest to do a major component
 
Are you using source control?
 
even though there is no logical dependency between the two major components under discussion
 
Or old_project, new_project, new_old_project, old_new_new_project_with_tims_changes?
Or Dropbox?
 
9:28 PM
we have one copy on the server
and further to that, I have more coursework due in on Friday which I have to get cracking on
especially as I'm still losing days and nights to sickness
gargh
at least I have a doctor's appointment tomorrow
 
Do you have that member of the group whose sole job is to write the "report"? I hate those, but I always ended up with one, somehow.
 
no, but if we had one I wouldn't mind
the website and presentation are just 55% of the work
so it wouldn't bother me to have someone dedicated to the other 45%
honestly, they'd probably break less stuff
 
@CatPlusPlus I mean that you can update your data and your CV etc...
@CatPlusPlus maybe you got invited by SO itself, just like me
 
@TonyTheTiger Dunno. Like I said, I made an account back when Careers was first launched.
 
@CatPlusPlus maybe back then it was open to all
donno
 
9:35 PM
Me too. I had an account on 1.0 and I can do all that now. Never got no invites.
 
sbi
@Dead: That all sounds terrible.
Now lemme tell you my problem this week: The company I work for runs a customer convention on Wed/Thu, and someone figured it would be a good idea if I'd stay behind and do all the support. That includes support for the company's flagship product, a piece of software I mostly know by name, since I was hired when the work on its successor started.
And this company is selling their software with time-limited licenses, and customers have to pay a yearly support fee. For that, they get on the phone the actual developer who is fixing their bugs. Except the next two days, when they'll have me, who probably knows less about the software than they do...
I'm absolutely, positively terrified.
 
"Have you tried turning it off and on again?"
 
right
 
sbi
@DeadMG I know zip about web programming, but would still switch with you in no time, would you offer.
 
find the manager and sue him?
honestly, web programming in ASP.NET is no big deal, if you know .NET
events keep firing themselves at very strange times, and you have to piss around with serialization far too much manually, but it's far from incomprehensible
 
sbi
9:40 PM
@DeadMG Manager? This is a small company. There's the dev head between me and the CEO.
 
I know .NET and WebForms terrifies me.
 
oh
well, by "the manager", you could extend that to, "whoever made that decision"
 
sbi
Plus the decision makes kind of sense. <sigh/> So I will have to bite the bullet, and be on my own for two days from 9-6.
 
@Martinho: WebForms are pretty easy, honestly
once you get over the stateless class- but it still lets you give it member variables- then you get a little further
what I don't get though still is the seemingly random event firing
 
sbi
Skynet. It's here. http://my.butt.org/9kyz
 
9:43 PM
like you make a button on the page, you give it an OnClick event, and the event fires if the page loads
 
sbi
@CatPlusPlus You know, I'll be one of those support drones who first has to look for the on/off switch himself.
 
@sbi: Why would you say that the decision kind of makes sense?
 
@sbi sounds a bit like where I work
@sbi hahaha
 
sbi
@DeadMG Because the others are a better fit than I am to give talks about this product at the convention.
 
so basically, you're the only one left?
 
sbi
9:46 PM
@DeadMG The only developer. There's two admins and one tester left behind alongside me.
But they can't help me.
 
ah I see
 
@sbi that's very small... must be stressfull
 
how did the company manage at previous conventions?
 
sbi
@DeadMG That's only the second. I wasn't there for the last one.
 
@MartinhoFernandes .NET is really not as terrifying as it looks... but web dev can be
 
9:48 PM
well yes, but if you're the only dev left over, then who did they put there last time?
 
sbi
@DeadMG The one who has the least clue about the product but for me?
 
ok#
 
I did support for about 4 months and it almost made me sick :( ugh I hate it now
 
Webdev with frameworks like Django is easy.
But at the end of the day, web is awful and boring.
 
@CatPlusPlus WebForms is nothing like Django, or Rails. It's just unfathomably crazy, man, I tell you.
 
9:52 PM
I honestly don't see why people want to webify everything.
 
@CatPlusPlus yea, well that's the latest fad isn't it
got so mired down in the web of everything, now they have a hard time coming back out
 
"Ooh, HTML5, we've got OpenGL and stuff now". Well, who bloody cares, we've had OpenGL since '90s.
 
OpenGL is not desirable anyway
 
DirectX then?
 
I'd much rather have the object-orientated RAII-enabled DirectX interface
 
9:54 PM
And JavaScript is just terrible in every way, both as a platform and a language.
 
@CatPlusPlus it's a wannabe language, I never liked it
lets not even mention PHP
 
don't get me started
 
@DeadMG You are hereby charged with a complete lack of taste, and having fallen for fake object orientation. OpenGL is dramatically cleaner than DirectX even hopes to become.
 
Things like jQuery made it bearable, but still. To need a whole framework to make it work on more than one browser.
Web is everywhere, eh.
 
9:55 PM
@JerryCoffin: Funny, cause it seems to me that things like the abomination of the matrix stack are way worse than D3DXMATRIX
 
@CatPlusPlus oh the whole browser compatibility thing is just rediculous
 
sbi
@TonyTheTiger I did support in another company I worked for, but we developers had the product management between us and the customers, so if something reached me, it wasn't a license request or a wrong switch thrown. Those weren't end customers either, but companies who licensed our SDK. (We had some pretty top notch companies on our customer list, like Adobe, Google, Xerox, HP, Quark, etc. Not bad for a two dozen people shop. But you wouldn't believe how bad some of those developers were...)
 
and considering the ability for me to throw in a five-line custom deleter to enable RAII in DirectX, I'd say it's got what it takes
 
sbi
I actually liked doing support then.
 
@DeadMG Matrix stack is gone, though, AFAIK.
Along with other horrible things like glBegin and friends.
 
sbi
9:56 PM
Anyway, my day starts in 6:30hrs (and my job as a clueless support drone in 9hrs), so I'd better hit the sack right now. I'll need to be awake tomorrow.
Bye!
 
@sbi oh yea I can believe it. I did support with customers whom knew not how to start or restart a computer, now that is very frustrating
 
bb sbi
 
@CatPlusPlus Wait what? How many memos did I miss?
 
@MartinhoFernandes Well, OpenGL 3.1 and everything after that? :P
 
9:58 PM
It's in two parts now, and Core Profile has everything that was once deprecated removed.
 
Last I used was 2.0 or something. Man, you made me feel old. I hate you.
 
@MartinhoFernandes you starting to sound like @sbi now
 
So, does that mean I no longer know OpenGL?
Now I feel old and stupid.
 
Fixed pipeline is still available in compatibility mode.
 
you'd just have to be insane to use it for anything other than text rendering
 
10:01 PM
you have an interesting way of being extremely blunt @DeadMG
 
well, you pretty much would
I'm switching over to shaders even for rendering some screen-spaced sprites
 
I don't know, I'm absolutely terrified by both DX and OGL, when it comes to anything more than Hello World. Hell, if I could make Hello World.
 
ugh, I still haven't learned all that graphics stuff
 
@CatPlusPlus: I find that initializing DirectX can be way more complex than using it
it's actually quite easy to build up from the very basics with DirectX
 
never even tried to initialize it
 
10:02 PM
Yeah, I see COM and shiver.
 
@CatPlusPlus don't get me started
I tried to learn COM and it horrified me, the sheer complexity is unreal
 
DX doesn't really use COM
 
I have a book on COM, I don't think I'm gonna open it up again soon
it's the one from Don Box then as well...
 
all you need to know about COM for using DirectX is IUnknown- that is, AddRef()/Release(), which is just ref counting functions, and QueryInterface(), which is just dynamic_cast
 
@DeadMG I never understood this QueryInterface thing... and then the IDispatch is just completely over my head
 
10:05 PM
you don't need IDispatch
 
ref count is ok, I get that
 
QueryInterface = dynamic_cast
 
@DeadMG but I almost needed it for another project I have been doing
ugh
for implementing VBScript with Windows Scripting Host
 
IInterface* ptr = nullptr;
interface->QueryInterface(__uuidof(IInterface), (void**)&ptr);
if (ptr) {
}
 
who uses VBScript anyways these days, isn't that supposed to be old and deprecated?
 
10:06 PM
besides, I never actually had to really use QI in DirectX code
 
oh ok
 
especially as they use ref counting, which is handy
 
so did you do all this stuff in your free time?
 
struct COMDeleter {
    template<typename T> operator()(T* ptr) {
        ptr->Release();
   }
};
std::unique_ptr<ID3D10Device, COMDeleter> RAIIFun;
yes
I haven't made progress on it for some time, but when my summer begins I will begin work
 
I find that impressive, cause I just haven't got the guts to get started doing that in my spare time
hahah
 
10:08 PM
honestly? it's really not that hard
 
that's a cool way to release COM refs by the way
 
just breathe, take it a step at a time, and GROW SOME BALLS MAN
hey, that's what custom deleters are for
 
:)
you're right, I should just dig in and write some code and play around, then read a book
 
well
what I usually find is that utterly failing in my designs showed me how much I sucked at C++ at the time
and a few months later I tried again and met with much more success
 
10:10 PM
soon I will resume ripping out the guts, it shall be the Dead Engineâ„¢ version 3, now with genuine sprites and text
 
I'm sure it's taught you a lot doing that
 
oh yes
 
ever wanted to throw your computer out the window while doing it?
 
failing at my own projects has been one of my best experiences
 
hmm yes I have learnt from that too
but those were .NET projects, nevertheless I learned from them
and the project at work in C++ has definitely taught me a LOT!!!
 
10:13 PM
yeah
my first attempt involved a lot of run-time inheritance and didn't get very far at all
 
oh yea
 
my second attempt attempted to mass compile-time inheritance and was even shorter-lived once I realized the impracticalities of mass templates
 
my first projects were far too clustered with design patterns
 
now I appreciate both the positives and the minuses of the magic colon, :
 
heheh
 
10:14 PM
@DeadMG There are certainly a few bits and pieces of OpenGL that are far from ideal -- about the same as the number of things in DirectX that even close to ideal.
 
now I realize that design patterns do have their uses, but they are easily overused and abused
 
my third attempt was going pretty good, but then I realized that whilst I had a pretty good interface and was relatively happy with it, it actually didn't provide anything near enough for me to actually produce what I wanted
so now I need to tweak some functionality, and begin adding much more
 
hmmm
what essentially does it do?
 
@JerryCoffin: Like what? I will treasure the easy RAII of DirectX above an awful lot
@Tony: Right now, it renders text, and it also renders some textures
 
oh ok
 
10:16 PM
the issue is that the texture dictates the size, not the user
and also I have no meaningful layout code whatsoever
 
layout code?
 
currently debating whether it should be laid over the renderer or inside it
to position stuff, on the screen?
 
oh I see
 
all I did right now was GetScreenWidth() / 2 to lay out my Exit button
 
heheh
it's a start
 
10:17 PM
yeah
 
so it's got GUI of some sorts
 
yes
 
what lib did you use for that?
 
it also did render basic 3D content
but I stripped it out because it needed replacing
 
10:17 PM
no third party libs
with MSVC10 which has a lot of Boost's libraries in it, I don't even need Boost
 
do you keep all the versions you had or do you just always edit the same copy?
 
just me, the Standard library, and DirectX, oh and the Windows API of course
 
oh ok
 
normally I just edit the same copy
 
10:18 PM
like, for example, my Button class
I personally coded the focus gain, focus lost events, changing the texture, etc
 
I find the hardest about big projects is coming up with a sensible design that won't end up making things overly complicated
 
yes#
 
@DeadMG oh wow! Nice!
 
it is nice
but of course, that's just a Button, and it's not even finished or good yet
 
10:19 PM
when I come to do a DropDownList or something, then it's gonna be... fun
 
cool
surely... interesting
 
yeah
 
would you know how to manually draw the lines of a graph that a user has given you the points on the axis for?
I've always wondered what would be the best way to do that
 
sure
what, in DX?
 
interpolation of some kind I think, between two points
in whatever seems to fit the need
 
10:21 PM
oh, that's not necessary
if I wanted to draw a line, I'd just stick some verts there and let the rendering engine interpolate them
 
oh, so perhaps it is easier then I thought
 
linear interpolation and that kind of thing is one of the very core functions of any rendering system, and it's very easy to ask DX to do that kind of work
 
so as a programmer I don't have to worry about implementing that
 
no, not at all
 
oh good
 
10:22 PM
basically, what happens to draw 3D content is that it's transformed into a 2D space, then the vertices are interpolated to produce the pixels
and for the pixel shader, any value you output from the vertex shader is interpolated between them
 
it's inspiring for me to have this chat, makes me wanna go and do this stuff
 
kek
 
@DeadMG but that transformation is something that's done for you, right?
 
well, yes and no. You have to define the transformation, but DX provides the necessary building blocks to make it relatively small work
after all, if D3D did the transformation, how could it possibly know where your camera is, where your world position is, and that kind of thing? And how could you write a shader that could transform from absolute screen-space into the relative co-ordinates required of the output, and also have a shader that could draw 3D content?
so what D3D does is provides functions to build the transforms for you from specific pieces, and some transforms are simple enough to implement on your own
 
@DeadMG no idea... not educated enough to know that yet
 
10:27 PM
remember that a shader is a completely user-written function, it only has pre-defined outputs, and if you wanted to, you could try to define vertices already in the requisite output format and never transform them at all
 
oh ok, well makes sense, for as much as I understand it
ok, thx for the talk on graphics :) I do have to go to bed now, I need to be up in the morning
 
infact, that's something I plan on doing for GUI positioning
 
ok, have fun
 
@DeadMG Hmm..the sort of close to ideal parts of DirectX. Um...honestly hard to come up with any, but I'm sure there must be at least a few. It's hard to remember any good parts though -- every time I think about it, things like the thousand lines of putridity it takes just to find and use the graphics mode you prefer gets in the way...
 
10:30 PM
man, now I have to try and do work
really? it seemed to be pretty easy to me
RAII is a pretty big ideal part over here
 
RAII is The Best Thing that ever happened to programming and a fundamental part of C++
 
@RonaldLandheerCieslak RAII is great. Here, however, it's being used as an argument in favor of DirectX, which (IMO) makes little sense -- DirectX and RAII are almost entirely orthogonal.
 
10:45 PM
I don't know the first thing about DirectX but AFAIK, it's functionally equivalent to OpenGL, right?
 
@RonaldLandheerCieslak Roughly, yes.
 
so DirectX is Microsoft's version, and it's written in C++?
 
11:01 PM
@RonaldLandheerCieslak DirectX is Microsoft's. Not sure about what it's written in. Many years ago I looked at some internals that appeared to be pure C, but that as a long time ago. To the outside world, it's all just COM.
 
11:32 PM
Right, from what I understand from en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_OpenGL_and_Direct3D, OpenGL is both portable and easier to use
But it's not clear to me if they offer equivalent performance
I guess that depends on the hardware, which probably gives an advantage to Microsoft, due to its dominance in the marketplace
@Jerry is that accurate?
 
@RonaldLandheerCieslak directX seems to have higher performance
Also directX seems to have more features then openGL. or it's more "cutting edge"
The main issue is that graphic cards are pushing hard to support the most upto date versions of directX and probably optimise more for directX then openGL.
Somewhere along the line directX became the de factor market leader and openGL never caught up
 
@RonaldLandheerCieslak It was at one time (when DirectX 9 was current) but hasn't been in quite a while now. With reasonably modern hardware, there's essentially no difference.
 
@JerryCoffin doesn't directX 11 have some kind of edge over openGL 4 ?
 
11:49 PM
I'm sure both has advantages over each other.
 
I see. It seems it's really not very truthful.
 
@Raynos No, not really. DirectX 10 was pretty much concurrent (and competitive) with OpenGL 3, and DirectX 11 with OpenGL 4. If anything, DirectX 11 was largely catching up with OpenGL being easy to combine with OpenCL for quite a while.
 
I assumed that the majority of the games industry used directX for a good reaosn.
 
For instance, if you are looking for a cross-platform library to work with, you can cross DirectX off the list.
 
Probably more legacy code and trained workforce reasons
 
11:50 PM
And there's also: 11 > 4.
 
@MartinhoFernandes people can't be that stupid
 
@Raynos In the DirectX 9 days, there was a substantial (frequently close to 2:1) performance difference. Anymore, it's mostly a question of what else you want to support outside of PCs. XBox and Windows Phone 7 support DirectX. iOS and Android support OpenGL ES.
 
@JerryCoffin linux users need to become first class gaming citizens.
The only reason I have a copy of windows lying around is because WINE is significantly slower :(
 
@JerryCoffin and Linux too.
 
@Raynos OpenGL works fine on Linux, but in many cases isn't installed by default, and really good support often requires proprietary (closed source) drivers. There's been some work on open-source drivers, but they do still seem to have a fairly noticeable performance disadvantage.
 
11:55 PM
@Raynos I don't think Microsoft will ever port DirectX for Linux.
 
@karlphillip Yes, Linux too -- but given its desktop market share, I doubt that affects most game studio's strategy much.
 
@karlphillip the problem is developers writing microsoft only code rather then cross platform standards
 
@karlphillip Even if they did, I can't imagine them making it open source, which would mean it was mostly a dead issue anyway.
 
Realistically what would happen to the market if microsoft made the windows OS open source?
 
I should add, however, that it's entirely possible (and IMO, mostly advisable) to use things like Ogre3D or OpenSceneGraph, that let you write your code (mostly) independent of the graphics API. The API independence is handy, but the higher level interface means even more.
 

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