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9:00 PM
I curse a lot when dealing with make.
 
yeah
 
waf is nice, but underdocumented.
 
well
i think there is no good build system. it just doesn't exist.
 
SCons is better documented, but requires ton of boilerplate and is bit slow.
Boost.Build is full of arcane.
 
where are everyone? does build system talk turn people off?
 
9:01 PM
Search for [c++] [or] [java].
It workses!
 
CMake generates Makefiles, which is meh.
premake generates Makefiles, but is somewhat less annoying.
 
premake is nice
 
Xeo
@RMartinhoFernandes Ooh, damn, seems I misunderstood!
 
you can actually learn some make if you look at its output.
it generates nice small makefiles, using a lot of implicit rules.
unlike the mess autotools create.
 
@CatPlusPlus Most recently in The Ur-Quan Masters.
 
9:03 PM
what's that?
 
But I have a strong feeling that I've seen this before.
 
starcraft 2?
:)
 
(Although there's a slim chance that' I'm utterly demented and that this is really a custom-built one-off build system!)
 
> New, custom build system.
 
@wilhelmtell It's an open-sourced version of The Best Game Ever, Star Control II.
@CatPlusPlus Oh OK. Never mind then. I somehow figured that something that modular would be a separate system somehow.
 
9:05 PM
Oh, is that from like ... 1990?
or something?
there used to be a game with that name.
loved it.
spaceships battling each other
back when i had patient to games.
which i lost when i was about 17
the patience, i mean, not the game.
well the game too.
 
@wilhelmtell At least that part can be helped... :-)
@CatPlusPlus Well, in that case my best experience with build systems so far has been CMake, but we've had this discussion before...
 
Yeah, I'm not using CMake, ever.
 
The nice thing about make is that you're virtually guaranteed it's there. it's the vi of build systems.
 
Did CMake molest you?
 
if it's not there all bets are off.
the nice thing about waf is that it's one single script you can bundle. you still need python though.
 
9:08 PM
I don't buy that argument. There are always some build dependencies, it doesn't matter what those will be.
 
and the nice thing about make-generating tools is that you can still choose to dist only the makefiles.
 
user142019
CMake is horrible.
 
if you can pack them all in the distributable then that's fine. but if you require the user to do more work before even building your stuff then imo it's a just a turnoff. it's annoying. users hate it. me too.
 
user142019
what's wrong with ./configure?
 
one step build. i buy that from spolsky.
 
Xeo
9:10 PM
> flag weight 551.1191
real numbers now? great.
 
What's the difference between requiring N libraries and requiring a build system?
@WTP Everything.
 
no difference. as annoying.
 
It's unavoidable with non-trivial software.
 
in my pet projects i try to bundle everything in. git submodules and such.
 
You can bundle build system as well.
 
user142019
9:11 PM
+1
 
user142019
And the operating systems you can build it on too.
 
the downside though is that if the user does have the prereqs then build can still be slow, because they're building things they don't need...
@WTP fair point. touche.
Who was it who said "if you want to make a cake from scratch you need to create a universe first" ?
 
user142019
God
 
Douglas Adams methinks ?
Well yeah. Which is a nick, some may say.
I deleted my Google+ account and I still see "+You" in Google's toolbar. I want to poke Google in the eye.
 
@wilhelmtell I never had a Google+ account and that's there as well.
 
9:16 PM
Since when does Google give toolbars anyway? Are we back to the 90s? Fuck Google what's wrong with you and your "don't be evil" bs?
 
user142019
I couldn't even create a Google+ account. T_T
 
Xeo
Google is evil from the get-go
You can't even change the setting on the lhs in which country you are
damn stalkers
It even accurately tracks down that I live in Berlin
The best I could do was change that to "Germany"
The stupid thing is, I prefer english search results over german ones
 
Er, it's navigation element not "toolbar". I don't see how it's relevant to anything.
 
@Xeo What are you talking about? It's not hard to change it too search in english instead
 
Xeo
@ManofOneWay "Searching in english" and "displaying english search results instead of german ones" are sadly enough different things for google
 
9:23 PM
Of course that's what I meant, in the bottom right of your Google page, you can press Google.com in english
@Xeo Can you find it?
 
Xeo
Ugh, okay, that thing I overlooked
Thank you
 
Xeo
Great. My headphones have a cable break. Again.
I seem to have a talent for that
All my headphones that ever broke had a cable break
 
I'm starting another project, woo!
 
What do you do with them? They supposed to go on your ears.
 
9:28 PM
I'll never finish anything.
 
@CatPlusPlus You seem to have a knack for never finishing them. I can relate to that.
 
I'll beat DNF in terms of vaporwareness.
 
Xeo
@RMartinhoFernandes I don't know. :(
 
What is it this time?
 
Xeo
They just break
 
9:29 PM
A build system!
Bloody tools, you have to write them yourself, or be forever annoyed.
Good thing I know enough about compilers to not start that one.
 
So, goals? Other than "being decent".
@CatPlusPlus You could write Cat++!
 
I'll start with small core that maintains dependency graph.
 
Xeo
Why not start with an operating system :P
And before that, a language to write the OS in
 
I'm not sure whether Python or Lua would be better choice for actual build scripts.
 
Xeo
Or you could take LOLCODE for that
An OS in LOLCODE... Hm...
 
9:32 PM
Lua sucks balls
don't do it
although I think that a configuration language was actually it's primary design purpose, originally
 
Well, it's more lightweight, I'll give it that.
 
CAN I HAZ STATIK LIBB?
CAN I HAZ LINKY?
 
Xeo
Okay, so only I have FF with 2 Tabs open, YT and this chat, and Task Manager reports 1gig memory usage (50%). Grrr
 
user142019
Why not use C++ for the build scripts so that you need to build the build scripts first?
 
Anyway, that's later. I want to keep the design modular and experiment with different approaches anyway.
I don't think C++ will play well in that role.
 
9:34 PM
@CatPlusPlus Yep, perfect recipe for never ending. You're good at this.
 
Oh, I'm an expert.
 
Xeo
Just yesterday I could get memory consumption down to ~500mb without anything open, only the OS running in idle.
 
user142019
That's still much for just the OS.
 
You paid for that memory. Don't you want apps to use them?
 
This chat is a memory hog.
 
Xeo
9:36 PM
It's pretty normal for Windows, atleast that's what I have seen in all the years
@CatPlusPlus FF only takes 200mb ram
 
user406009
@CatPlus Just wondering, where do you store your projects?
 
Xeo
Hm, brb
 
I keep the chat in Chrome these days.
It reports it takes 140MB of RAM.
There's likely some Chrome overhead and all that, but still
 
Xeo
So, ~750mb without FF open
 
user142019
My IDE takes almost 2 GB of RAM. =_=
 
9:38 PM
IDE is misspelled DIE.
 
Xeo
I still wonder why Win7 needs 500mb ram in idle..
 
Buffers, cache.
 
Xeo
Live | eviL
 
Prefetch.
It doesn't matter.
Just leave it be.
 
3
A: std::move vs std::auto_ptr?

DeadMGauto_ptr is fundamentally broken, and rvalue references aren't. It's just that simple.

 
Xeo
9:39 PM
Well, I need more ram anyways. 2gig is like nothing nowadays.
 
Whatever extraneous memory OS holds is for performance, and it'll be released if really needed.
 
@JohannesSchaublitb Lemme guess, you're going to say auto_ptr is not broken.
> Rename tetris.cpp to main.cpp. I'm not doing Tetris, Tetris is boring.
What are you doing then?
 
I told you, a roguelike.
 
Oh, right.
 
Xeo
Especially if I want to have a virtual box open side-by-side.
 
9:40 PM
For some reason I didn't make the connection between OpenGL and roguelikes.
 
Xeo
Also, RAM is cheap
 
user142019
I have seen 2x 4 GB for €50.
 
@Xeo It's actually a function of how much memory you have. The more you have the more it "reserves" for system uses... So on my machines, Win7 will use anywhere from 1.5 GB to 4 GB at boot
 
It's a pity they don't provide 8GB packs.
 
9:42 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes yes auto_ptr is broken..
 
user142019
Reminds me of a SO question about wiping ram with C++.
 
but i don't write an answer because then i would need to explain why xD
simply stating stuff into the air is not answering anything
 
user142019
lol
 
Xeo
Great, I just downloaded 4gig of RAM!
 
@JohannesSchaublitb Ah, I saw your comment now.
 
Xeo
9:43 PM
Thanks @RMartinhoFernandes!
:P
 
oof, most random comment in a while: stackoverflow.com/a/874470/33213
 
Xeo
wtf.
Design for a pair of towers in Korea
 
yeah, I read about that
 
user142019
Looks nice.
 
Someone played too much Minecraft.
 
user142019
9:47 PM
:p
 
One feature of Boost.Jam I like is building multiple variants at once.
 
@Xeo wow nice
 
user142019
I want better type introspection in C++.
 
looks scary
 
@Xeo I think those towers would need a Willy Wonka elevator
 
9:52 PM
can it be built?
 
Will it blend?
 
user406009
@WTP C++ already has tons of type introspection. The only problem is that it is all at compile time with obtuse templates.
 
user142019
@WTP given a random pointer, it's not possible to get the type of the object it points to, is it?
 
That would require a ton of stuff in it.
 
user406009
9:57 PM
@WTP dynamic_cast and typeid from RTTI can give you the type of a pointer, assuming it points to an object with a virtual function.
 
user142019
@Ethan Steinberg That's cool.
 
wow. This is brilliant
2
 
> Hungarian folk dance is such a slow programming language. ;)
 
> what's wrong with ++i and ++k?
> They are typically used in "clever" ways, rarely in a way that benefits maintenance of code. Its easy to introduce off-by-one errors, or for those coming behind to misread. There's a reason JSLint counts them as errors by default. There's also a reason why we've disallowed them in my company's coding standards.
lol?
 
Yeah, and that reason is utter silliness.
 
10:04 PM
I wonder if I should familiarize myself with the current hardware world (have been off the grid for 5 years) or just buy a 500 Euro desktop computer at Dell or something.
 
@FredOverflow O.o
 
@FredOverflow Wtpf? Where's that from?
 
22
Q: Is continue considered bad style?

FredOverflowI feel myself tempted to write the following nested loop: for (int i = 0; i < N; ++i) { for (int k = 0; k < N; ++k) { if (i == k) continue; // ... other stuff ... } } Would this be acceptable, or should I use if (i != k) and thus introduce another level of nes...

@KerrekSB Here.
 
Xeo
@FredOverflow Holy sh...
 
Ah, Andy....
 
10:13 PM
Write all your functions with the form: bool f(..., return_type* ret) so that they return false on failure, declare everything up front, and then write all your code like return f(0, &r) && g(r, &s) && h(s, ret);. There, no tedious error-checking needed in C!
Sorry about that. It appears I had a seizure or something.
 
Monads in C!
 
It's Maybe!
 
Omagad, Tibia on SO.
 
What?
Around here, "tibia" is either a bone, or a cake.
 
Cool, I just discovered that there are passively cooled (low-end) GPUs, this is really interesting...
 
10:17 PM
Some question about changing IP in a Tibia client.
 
What's Tibia?
 
An old MMO with utterly atrocious community around it.
 
Oh, it's a game.
 
@FredOverflow These must be old, or by Intel.
Intel GPUs are so crappy I'm angry they even exist.
 
@CatPlusPlus Nvidia GeForce GT 430 is from 2010.
 
10:19 PM
lol
 
GeForce GT with no active cooling?
 
It seems I don't even need a GPU since modern CPUs have minimal GPU support built-in.
 
This sentence doesn't make any sense.
 
yeah, they have Intel Integrated Graphics
 
Some questions are outright arcane... how can you have heard of StackOverflow if things like functions puzzle you? [fixed broken link]
 
10:20 PM
AMD have their own equivalents
it won't play Crysis, but it should handle regular desktop needs just fine
 
@FredOverflow I'm suspicious.
 
@FredOverflow Yes, CPUs usually have CPU support.
 
Photos from NVIDIA have fan on them.
This one might be undercooled.
 
@DeadMG How would these compare to a five year old graphics card? (Radeon X1950)
 
Or it's somehow limited by the card manufacturer.
 
10:22 PM
what CPU do you have?
 
@DeadMG From what I was reading on a few sites, that was not intended for hardcore stuff
 
the X1950, I'm pretty sure, is quite a bit older than five years
 
@KerrekSB Needs a "Get a PHP book" link. But I'm not sure that's a good idea.
 
@DeadMG Right now, or what I'm planning to buy?
@DeadMG Well, I bought it five years ago :)
 
well, if you're discussing not having a discrete GPU, then whatever CPU you're planning on having without one
the newer, higher-end Sandy Bridge chips can run some very modern games at lower resolutions and settings at fine framerates
 
10:23 PM
Integrated GPUs suck.
 
@CatPlusPlus They did suck
but the Nehalem and Sandy Bridge cores are vastly superior
 
@DeadMG I was thinking something like this
 
and what use did you have in mind for it?
browsing? Flash/HD video? hardcore games?
 
@DeadMG mind you, the drivers still stink
 
Did they finally manage to implement OpenGL 2.0?
 
10:25 PM
@DeadMG The most "hardcore" game I'm playing is Hardwood Hearts :)
 
rofl
I lied
that CPU will play Crysis
 
@CatPlusPlus My laptop's integrated Intel does!
 
so it should be just fine for virtually any purpose
 
@RMartinhoFernandes woah
 
10:26 PM
unless you want to play the latest & greatest in three to five years time
it'll eat desktop or web browsing needs for breakfast
 
Hm, 2 cores cost ~110, 4 cores cost ~190... tempting!
 
@FredOverflow Science says buy the 4!
 
user406009
@Kian Mayne Each additional core is less and less useful ...
 
But 4 cores also means more power consumption, more heat to get rid of, louder cooling systems required, right?
 
user142019
Yep, but also more concurrency.
 
10:31 PM
Buy a fridge.
 
The most important thing for me is that I don't hear my computer. I spent more than 100 additional Euros on my last (current) desktop just to make sure it doesn't get on my nerves.
 
Haha
 
user142019
Cool it with liquid helium.
 
Xeo
Who's in for some nostalgia?
 
@FredOverflow Wow, I have all my settings on for performance rather than quietness
 
10:32 PM
Also, fast booting would be nice. Should I buy SSD?
 
@FredOverflow Yes
 
@FredOverflow only if all 4 cores are running at max. For the most part, they don't require more power to run
 
@KianMayne Well, I have a 1.8 GHz CPU, the slowest Core2Duo that was available back then :)
@jalf Hm, really? That sound nice. Does compiling get faster with 4 cores, or is the hard drive the bottle neck?
 
@FredOverflow Well I have a 3.2Ghz Pentium 4 D:
 
@KianMayne Sounds like you need a new system if you want performance :)
 
10:34 PM
Disk access is certainly not the bottleneck in C++ compilation.
 
@FredOverflow Yeah, sounds like I need money ;P
 
After reading this question I checked GCC4.6.2's vector implementation (vector.tcc).
 
@KianMayne How old are you?
 
It seems odd that this performs default-construction followed by assignment when you insert at the back
 
@FredOverflow 17 In full time education
 
10:35 PM
That is, the implementation doesn't distinguish insert and pushback
 
user142019
Few days ago I discovered my IDE used 170% of the CPU.
 
@KerrekSB Ugh, const members.
 
Me and my friend might be setting up a business teaching OAPs how to use computers
 
(They're both handled _M_insert_aux.)
 
@KianMayne Back when I was in school, I spent all my money on hardware, and I didn't have a lot of money.
 
10:36 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes Many "ugh"s, but stdlibc++ disappoints.
 
@KianMayne What is an OAP?
 
I supposed it does moves now.
 
@FredOverflow Old Age Pensioner
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Well, in any case it still does assignments when construction would have sufficed.
 
@FredOverflow I get money for my birthday and christmas and that's about it
 
10:37 PM
@KianMayne I used to make a little money by fixing other people's computers.
 
@FredOverflow I tried that
 
#ifdef __GXX_EXPERIMENTAL_CXX0X__
	  _M_emplace_back_aux(__x);
#else
	  _M_insert_aux(end(), __x);
#endif
 
user142019
I used to make money by writing SQL queries that returned the wrong results for my classmates.
 
@KerrekSB Seems like 4.7 fixes that.
 
@FredOverflow If you're gonna be compiling large things, having a lot of ram tends to help. Let the OS buffer everything and it'll be faster than an SSD.
 
10:39 PM
@FredOverflow and it will probably be a part of helping the OAPs as well
 
Yeah I thought 8 GB DDR3 or something. RAM doesn't cost much anymore it seems.
 
Ram is dirt cheap right now...
 
@KianMayne Are you gonna teach them C++? ;)
@Mysticial Can I use more then 8 GB on "mainstream" mother boards?
 
I'm tempted to put my main machine from 12GB to 24GB, though I don't know what I'll do with the existing 6 x 2GB that I have.
 
user142019
Give it to me.
 
10:40 PM
@FredOverflow Nah bad for business ;P Then they'd form their own companies and CHARGE LESS
 
@FredOverflow Almost every board now will have 4 slots that'll take 4GB each, so you're fine.
 
16 GB ram sounds like a nice dream :)
 
@FredOverflow depends on the code, of course. I'd say it's worth it, but ymmv
 
I'm probably one of the few people who complains that 64GB isn't enough...
 
user406009
You will only need 4GB for the next two years, 8GB for the next 5 years.
 
user406009
10:41 PM
That's my bet anyways.
 
main advantage to having more cores is that playing around with concurrency is much more fun :D
 
@Mysticial What do you do, video editing?
@jalf That's the exact reason I bought my first dual core 5 years ago, and yet I never did anything interesting besides a parallel Quicksort in Java :)
 
that's the same reason I bought a Q6600 instead of an E6600 in early 2007
but now I'm glad I did, because BF3 eats every cycle that thing has to offer on three cores, I think, if not all four
if I had a dual, it wouldn't be playable
 
@FredOverflow HPC, and lots of it... with terabyte datasizes...
 
@FredOverflow ah
 
10:43 PM
So games finally make use of multiple cores?
 
What's HPC?
 
My biggest server has 64GB ram and 18TB disk. I use the ram as a working cache for the disk...
HPC = High Performance Computing
 
can you guys please gimme a hint
 
Hint: there is no spoon.
 
Please compile...
 
Xeo
10:47 PM
@KianMayne The prayer of every coder
 
3 hours ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
Fuck yeah, it compiles.
 
@JohannesSchaublitb IDDQD makes you invulnerable.
 
OMG, cheats!
 
Damn, runtime error
 
0
Q: What should the behavior of unique_ptr be in this situation?

JesseSay I have the following: std::unique_ptr<A> pA; pA(new A); In this convoluted example, what should the behavior of pA(new A); be? As far as I can tell, in MSVC2010, void operator()(T*) const; from default_delete is called right after new returns and deletes the pointer right away. Wher...

 
10:56 PM
Where's this evasive Upload button?
 
Xeo
Right next to your edit box
 
right next to the "send" butotn
 
I can just see send?
 
Make the window bigger.
 
Maximised...
 
Xeo
10:58 PM
Yes, my FHCs are crappy, thank you.
 
I don't have a "clipboard" button
 
Xeo
:O I don't have that (clipboard) button!
 
Shouldn't have taken the time to draw the arrows.
 
I uploaded to imgur manually...
 
10:59 PM
lol
 
Xeo
@RMartinhoFernandes Atleast you didn't have to start up dropbox :P I accidentially closed it earlier
 
@Xeo OMG, my secret is now loose!
 

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