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9:00 PM
full stop. nothing promotes "before the &".
 
@JohannesSchaublitb You knew that well before you posted it J
 
@DeadMG "crashes" implies that the compiler let it happen, and the program was running up til that point
 
@sbi I care, because I don't want to set the breakpoint in the middle of somewhere else.
 
my flu is back
and nasty
@cHao Hence I proved that it was invalid for the decay to happen
 
sbi
@CatPlusPlus I fail to parse that into something that relates to what i asked.
 
9:01 PM
@sbi I'm not talking about anything performance-related, if that's what you're asking about.
 
user34537
ah ha. so you passing a ptr to a ptr for both those variables. nice.
 
@JohannesSchaublitb will that even build?
 
user34537
i thought VS would protect one from that. It seemed smart enough to determine other runtime mistakes.
 
@CatPlusPlus i hear good things about cmake
 
@codemaker - it builds
 
user34537
9:02 PM
@codemaker of course. Theres no reason an int** (or int[]*) cant be converted to void*
 
the typedef doesn't do what you wanted
 
@codemaker Ugh, no, just no.
 
ow, my back
 
@acidzombie24 that typedef looks wrong
 
9:04 PM
isn't cmake some crap in python?
 
no
 
@cHao no scons is in python
 
scons is superb
 
there's a CMake and a Cython, I think, and CPython, but I don't think that CMake is related to the other two
 
@awoodland Hi, this is the conclusion I've come regarding computer Ip addresses. Ip addresses must be unique across computers in the same network in order for the router to know which packet to forward it to. This can be done manually or with the DHCP which is hopefully installed in the router. Port numbers are not required by the router to map which computer, but to identify the correct sockets that talk to the correct application.
It sounds convulated, I'm not sure about the port number not being required by the router though...
 
user34537
9:04 PM
memcpy(y, x, sizeof(aptype)); is the solution
 
yes, and cstring is the crapstring for us c++ guys.
 
I felt like scons was always in my way
 
yes CMake is unrelated to CPython
 
scons is cool, but slow as dirt, at least for me.
 
CPython is the reference implementation of python
 
9:05 PM
@LewsTherin the router needs to know about port numbers if it's doing nat
 
that's how I generally feel about python anyway. My dabbling with scons was during a love affair I had with python a while back
 
Cython is a language based on Python that's designed to be compiled down to CPython extensions.
 
now lua is my chick on the side
 
@awoodland Gah, can a port number be the same across different machine?
 
9:06 PM
@LewsTherin - yes
@LewsTherin - the nat device only has one public IP normally though, so it has to fudge it by remapping them to make sure they're unique on what it sends out
 
@awoodland I thought a port number is appended to an ip address to make it unique. So what is the point then?
 
no every port number has to be unique. There are at most 65535 connection anytime anywhere on the internet
 
Lol.
That would be a sad news for WoW players.
 
That is my experience as a wow player =)
 
@codemaker Lua's terrible.
 
sbi
9:07 PM
@CatPlusPlus Oh. Ok. So what's the problem with ::DebugBreak() and assert() needing an additional stackframe?
 
Port number is not appended to the IP in any way.
 
@DeadMG why do you say that?
 
@CaptainGiraffe That's what I thought a port number must unique across computers on the same network. Otherwise it doesn't make sense as the ip address is unique on its own
 
they have only GC, no RAII, no finally, no nothing
 
@LewsTherin that's like saying "is every digit unique in any number?" "no, for example 11 has the 1 twice" "i thought a digit is appended to a number to make it unique. so what is the point then?"
 
9:08 PM
@sbi When the debugger breaks, it's in the middle of CRT or kernel32.dll.
 
and you can't even get __gc on objects created from Lua
 
@CatPlusPlus What I mean is that the IP addressed is used with a port number to create a unique address
 
Not where you put the breakpoint.
 
@DeadMG don't be mad if she doesn't love you. She treats me right :)
 
@JohannesSchaublitb - is the problem with that code the same in both C and C++?
 
9:08 PM
@LewsTherin A port number plus an ip adress is very unique
 
or is it a subtle difference between them?
 
@awoodland you already solved it!
 
no, it's just a badly-designed languages
 
it's the parameter being a pointer..
 
thats how it works
 
9:09 PM
@LewsTherin IP is already unique. Ports are not used on the IP level.
 
I like tables and I like their simplicity, but the language desperately needs proper exception handling and resource cleanup support
 
@DeadMG you mean like GC on tables? You can. You have to use a fancy trick to make it work though. Lua 5.2 will fix this
 
oh I thought someone said that was wrong, so I carried on trying to figure it out
 
but there is no decay "before the &". it's just a pointer. it was never an array...
 
sbi
@CatPlusPlus So? That's what the stacktrace is for. It is very unlikely anyway, that the problem originated in the stackframe it was discovered in, so you need to examine the call stack anyway.
 
9:09 PM
@CatPlusPlus But they are used by the router, which is what I don't understand.
 
well, I also hope that I didn't want something else
like, reference counting or unique ownership
 
@CatPlusPlus yes ports are very much used on the IP level
 
@sbi Eh.
 
oh I see
 
ports are an IP thing methinks
 
9:09 PM
@DeadMG how is it badly designed?
 
@CaptainGiraffe IP header has no port field.
 
well, they have propagating errors (i.e., exceptions)
 
Ports are TCP/UDP concept.
 
@JohannesSchaublitb nope. ports are a tcp or udp thing. ip doesn't know anything about them
 
but no RAII or finally
 
sbi
@CatPlusPlus I'm not sure what to make of that grunt.
 
and their C API is disgusting
it's not even pseudo-object-orientated
 
@DeadMG I agree!
 
@sbi That I'm not going to argue. :P
 
it's "Did I manually compute the stack index of the variable I wanted to use correctly?"
 
9:11 PM
@DeadMG exceptions make it bad?
 
Why does a router need to check the port number? Maybe I should ask it that way...
 
@codemaker They do when you don't offer RAII or even try/finally
 
@LewsTherin - a router doesn't, but a device doing NAT as well does
 
or even proper __gc
 
@DeadMG it's garbage collected
 
9:11 PM
@awoodland Is NAT on the router?
 
IPTABLES can do it
 
uh
 
@LewsTherin - nat is done by some routers
 
Simple NAT doesn't look at ports.
 
@LewsTherin if the router is doing nat, then the computer's ip address is no longer the ip address in the packet
 
9:12 PM
MASQUEERREADING
 
yeah
even Java isn't dumb enough to think that GC magically solves every resource problem
their band-aids might utterly suck, but they at least attempt some
 
@DeadMG i would say that standalone lua doesn't make a good general purpose programming language, but that isn't really what it is designed for
 
or DNAT/SNAT on iptables
 
@CatPlusPlus True but to connect to anything tcp is common
 
GC nowadays is just superior
 
9:12 PM
yeah, that's what makes it even worse
 
hell, the source port might not even be the same anymore.
 
to manually managed memory methinks
 
it's designed as an extension language, but it's a fucking bitch to extend
 
Dunno if port forwarding is considered part of the NAT process.
 
@DeadMG I see what you are saying, but the only place you don't get __gc is on tables and that will change in 5.2. I'll give you that as a limitation. Is that it?
 
9:13 PM
@cHao Why would the NAT need to use port numbers? The router has the packet from the server. All it needs to figure out is which computer to forward it to. Simply check the ip address... why check the port? NAT or router
 
the API is horrendous, and it enforces a poorly-implemented memory paradigm that doesn't even match the language it's trying to extend
 
@CatPlusPlus - portforwarding is DNAT
i.e. NAT on the destination
 
@DeadMG I love the API
 
@codemaker No. You still need try/finally at the very least.
 
@LewsTherin because if you're natting, the destination ip on the packet is the router's ip.
 
9:13 PM
and the mismatch between that and C++ is huge
@codemaker Then you must be clinically insane.
 
@acidzombie24 No, only x. y is an array. Taking the address of an array gives you the same address as the first element.
 
in Lua, you have to waste your life setting up all the class system and inheritance and BS like that
 
@DeadMG if you reeeeeeealy need try/finally, use pcall(), it will catch errors for you and you can handle them
 
@cHao Yes, so NAT translates the ip address of the router to that of the machine address. So it should stop there and forward it to that address. Why check the ports?
 
@DeadMG I wear my badge of clinically certified insanity proudly
 
9:14 PM
Because destination address might depend on it.
 
Should use sizeof(x) also.
 
@LewsTherin because you're not necessarily the only one on the network.
 
So I see there is no love for DART here ?
 
@DeadMG shrug to each his own I guess...
 
The Lua C API is
"Oh, did I magically remember the index of the stack variable I wanted?"
 
9:15 PM
In case of DMZ-style forwarding, you can just pass along everything, but the more common setup is several machines, each with some ports to forward to them.
 
@cHao What does that mean? Please explain...
 
@StackedCrooked No, because x is a pointer, so that will be 4 or 8, probably
 
@LewsTherin - it checks the ports because they need to be unique on it's public ip address of which it has only one. You could have two clients, A and B on a lan both using 1024 as a source port. On the outbound side from the nat device it can only use port 1024 once, so it has to rewrite at least one of those to be able to do both
 
@DeadMG magically remember? "did I store the index of that var I wanted?" "Oh I didn't... my bad let me fix my code..."
 
no
int index = ...; doesn't tell you what's at that index
 
9:16 PM
And there's also port triggering.
 
especially since when you operate on the stack, you change the indexes of the existing variables
 
@LewsTherin - which means on the reply packets you need to change the port back to match what the hosts believed it was on the way out
 
so you have to almost keep a list of the exact stack when you operate on it
 
@LewsTherin consider: two computers both miraculously pick port 1234, and decide to connect to google. when the packets get to the router, one or the other is going to need their port number changed...else when google replies, the router won't know which computer it's replying to.
 
9:17 PM
it's horrendous, and obscene
 
@LewsTherin - the ports on the single public IP outbound need to be unique to be able to correctly hand error conditions
 
crap this is not shell =)
 
@DeadMG you only change existing stuff if you call lua_remove(). If you do lua_pushstring("mystring"); int my_string = lua_gettop(); you can push as many things on top as you want and the my_string index will still be valid
 
yeah
because it's only like, almost all of the useful operations that pop things off the stack
or require several operands in order on the stack so you have to start shuffling the contents around manually
 
@DeadMG I didn't say pop stuff off, you can pop stuff, just don't pop your value. pop is different than remove
 
9:19 PM
so when the router sends stuff out, computer A would be going out through port 1234, and computer B will have its address translated so it looks like it's coming from port 1235
and when google replies to port 1235, the router knows that that response is meant for computer B
all this happens without computer B ever having to do anything, if all goes well
 
@DeadMG I have never been confused as to when something will be popped vs removed. IDK.
 
@cHao I think I get you, it's a case of preventing where 2 computers have the same ipAddr:portNumber it is unambiguous or something
 
the point is
there's no excuse not to offer a lua_String*, lua_Table*, etc, style API
 
@DeadMG you have hate for lua, I get the point
 
I have a perfectly logical dislike of how it totally ignores pretty much every lesson you could choose to learn from every other language
 
9:21 PM
So they make sure that the ip address is unique for each computer and that solves half the problem... if 2 computers miraculously have the same port number does the router temporarily change the 2 port numbers or one?
 
Lua is a "dynamic" C++ implemented by people where about one of the designers is vaguely competent and the rest are monkeys bashing on typewriters
 
@LewsTherin - in most implementations usually it changes every source port number on outbound connections
 
@DeadMG it's perfectly logical to you. My logic works different. I love lua. The beauty of perspectives allows us to coexist without the universe destroying itself :)
 
FWIW, I don't like Lua's API either.
 
oh, the global variable orgasm is terrible, too
 
9:22 PM
It's plain weird.
 
@awoodland If that's the case, that means the port number the socket is given must also be updated... does that mean tcp is inside the router? I thought it was in the computer :S
 
people should not be forced into using global variables to call a function from another file
 
Lol.
TCP is a protocol.
 
@LewsTherin the router has to know tcp and udp in order to do nat
 
@LewsTherin - the change is like the source IP address, only visible to the outside world, which doesn't know there's an inside world
 
9:23 PM
It's not "inside" anything. Packets sent across the network are made in conformance with it.
 
@DeadMG im not sure what you are referring to there, but it sounds unfamiliar to me
 
Some of them, at least.
 
and the inside world has no knowledge of all the changes that are made, because they're undone in the replies
 
well, let me ask you
how do you get C to call into Lua?
 
the job of a NAT implementation is to convince everybody it doesn't exist
 
9:24 PM
oh wait- you create a global function
 
@cHao mmn, I'm too slow here.. is the tcp on the computer or router?
 
Argh, those weird link errors.
 
but because Lua doesn't separate functions and variables, it's shared mutable state for the most basic purposes
 
@LewsTherin both.
 
THEN WHO WAS UDP?
 
9:26 PM
the computer generates tcp packets, the router translates them in order to do its natty job
 
So the tcp on the computer gives the socket an ip addr and port number. Then say the router decides to change the port number to something else, shouldn't the socket port number be updated?
 
having functions being able to be stored as variables is great
but forcing them to be global mutable state is terrible
 
@LewsTherin nope. if all goes well, the nat changes the port number before it forwards the packet on to the lan. so the computer doesn't even know the port number was changed
ideally, nat is invisible to clients on the lan
servers, it's just a little more complicated. but not horribly so
 
@DeadMG c can call any lua function it wants, it could be a global or it could be stuffed in a table somewhere
 
@cHao That sounds like the problem from the beginning.
 
9:28 PM
where did you put the table?
it has to be global
 
@DeadMG or you can just call a function that was returned from a previous function
@DeadMG yeah, at least one thing needs to be global
@DeadMG well sort of. You could treat a whole file as a chunk and return a function from it. No globals
 
no, that's just treating the whole file as one single global
 
@DeadMG and what is wrong with global functions? I am missing something here
 
0
Q: Python: Define a function using a variable?

George BurrowsI am trying to define a function that will include a variable n where n will be a string of numbers e.g. "3884892993", the definition of the function starts as is_true(n), however if n is going to be a string should it be is_true(n) and then once the string is defined I can test the function with...

Rofl, first revision, source as a screenshot.
 
because they're mutable global state
 
9:29 PM
@DeadMG true
 
which is bad
 
@cHao - it's invisible to servers too
 
error C3859: virtual memory range for PCH exceeded;
Yay!
 
@awoodland but requires a bit more setup.
 
@DeadMG so something could screw up your function if it wanted to. Name it something intelligent... shrug. I see why you have a problem with that, but it doesn't bother me
 
9:31 PM
naming it something intelligent doesn't really help
I could make the same argument about namespaces in C++
 
@cHao - ah you mean servers on the LAN, not on the internet in general right?
 
@DeadMG well maybe I don't see why you have a problem with a function being global
 
it's global mutable state, which is bad.
 
@DeadMG meaning that the function could change at any time?
@DeadMG or you could have namespace collisions that change the function?
 
@awoodland right. servers behind the nat need the router to know about them, or they'll never see any requests
 
9:32 PM
meaning that if you have two libraries that define the same function, you don't even get the glory of a compiler error
 
@cHao ok I will use some examples.
Computer 1: 192.168.1.1:1234
Computer 2: 192.168.1.2:1234
NAT changes the port number 1 from 1234 to 1235
NAT changes port number 2 from 1234 to 1236
When the server responds to computer 1 and 2 assuming..
NAT translates the router ip to the respective ip addresses and port numbers?
 
@DeadMG that wouldn't happen. Each lib should be defined in it's own module. mod_a.func() is different from mod_b.func(). That would be bad library design to pollute the global namespace like that
 
yeah
except if you get namespace collision, you don't get an error or a warning
 
@DeadMG but the language won't hold your hand there
 
it just splats
 
9:33 PM
@LewsTherin What are those ports?
 
@DeadMG true, that is bad
 
Oh well, nevermind, it won't matter.
NAT is two-way translation.
 
@LewsTherin yep. the router remembers that it's translating port 1235 to 192.168.1.1:1234, and changes the addresses on the packets accordingly
 
Router remembers that 1235 maps to 1.1:1234.
And 1236 to 1.2:1234.
 
in other news
 
9:34 PM
@DeadMG in my experience that hasn't been a problem. And if you are embedding lua, you generally have control over what is available to the code
 
my back and stomach both are really unhappy
 
You clearly need alcohol to make the head unhappy, too.
 
it's already unhappy
 
@cHao Right, what if I used only the ip address to identify the computers, the same method should work...because from POV the port numbers are clearly useless as they can be the same.
 
if i were gonna embed any language, i'd probably want it to be js. :)
 
9:36 PM
@DeadMG lua was not kind to you :)
 
if I were gonna embed any language, it wouldn't be some new-age hippy dynamic language
it would be a useful, productive, language
 
I'd probably go for Guile before JavaScript.
 
one with strict type rules
 
@LewsTherin the port numbers aren't useless. they're just not used for what you expect them to be used for.
 
and mutable global state banned
 
9:36 PM
@DeadMG do you use c++?
 
I do indeed
 
@LewsTherin Computers are identified only by IP addresses.
 
@DeadMG but you stay away from global vars
 
of course I do
 
Connections, however, are identified by IP and port.
 
9:37 PM
NAT is just a way for several machines to appear under one address.
 
@DeadMG im just kidding :) of course you do
 
NAT is an ugly ugly hack
 
it's not that ugly...but it can be pretty inconvenient at times
 
@DeadMG c++ is my first love. Luckily she and lua mostly get along. Mostly...
 
NAT is low-effort firewall.
 
9:38 PM
that too
 
it is pretty ugly, it relies on tricking both parties of a conversation
 
@awoodland yes, quite ugly
 
@awoodland and in the majority of cases, it does that very well.
 
technically, BASIC was my first
but she didn't last very long at all
Lua was my real first
and then C++
 
Huh, weird linker errors only on 64 bit target.
 
9:39 PM
@CatPlusPlus - no less effort than "deny all inbound" as a default policy and not any better in terms of actually filtering outbound badness than nothing at all
 
@awoodland unfortunately it works 80% of the time so people mostly ignore the other 20%
@DeadMG and now you hate lua?
 
yep
 
@awoodland depends. with nat, you don't even really have to block anything. and "deny all inbound" can get ugly...done wrong, you lose all contact with the internet
 
@DeadMG I guess that is no different than the way I feel about python now shrug. Poor lua
@DeadMG I used to love me some python
 
they would have done better with interpreted C++
 
9:41 PM
python irks me.
 
Yeah I understand that NAT does all that magic stuff. But IMO translating only the IP address should be the end of it. When the computer receives the packet, then the port number would then be used by the tcp to identify the connection
 
Python is cool.
 
@chao - deny all new inbound I should have said
 
@LewsTherin and what happens when both computers choose port 1234?
 
@CatPlusPlus python is too cool. It's like that guy who is so cool, he knows better than you
 
9:42 PM
@codemaker Huh?
 
no, that's Java
 
Python code is beautiful.
 
the problem is nat punching is quite feasible
 
@cHao Ok we know across the computers the ip addresses are unique. NAT translates the computer back to the ip address. Then it forwards it to that computer. It doesn't matter whether they have the same port number at that point
 
python code might be beautiful, i dunno. i don't see it. but either way, python implementations piss me off.
 
9:43 PM
and "allow all outbound regardless" is definitely bad
 
@DeadMG no, java is your grandmother, who is some how younger than your mother age wise, but acts like she knows best in all situations just because. Oh she also has her own way of doing things, don't tell her you found something better... oh no
 
@cHao Why?
No, Java is just retarded.
64-bit linker, y u fail.
 
cause i was doing some recursive stuff and ran smack into an artificial recursion limit
 
"Objects are our Gods. Inheritance shall be our divine weapon against all programming problems. We shall not question the Garbage Collection algorithm and explore other forms of managing memory. Primitives shall be looked down upon by all. We shall exist purely within the Sacred Laws of the Virtual Machine."
 
@cHao The only reason why I'd think port numbers are used by the NAT is if it is to create some kind of foreign key crap.
 
9:44 PM
You can change it, you know.
 
@LewsTherin foreign key crap? english plx
 
Even to infinity on stackless implementations.
 
@CatPlusPlus well, i'm not a big fan of the whitespace matters thing, but I can get past that. Python people just love that though. When I code in python I just feel like I could do it better in c++. It would take me longer though...
 
@LewsTherin - that's exactly the abuse that NAT does with it
 
i shouldn't have to change it. it shouldn't even be there.
i should be able to recurse til i crash the interpreter.
 
9:45 PM
You can, if you want.
 
@awoodland But it doesn't need to, that's my point. The IP address is already unique, it isn't a weak entity. Why waste effort?
 
But most people prefer accidental infinite recursion to be debuggable within common framework.
Also, CPython doesn't optimise tail recursion, so it's silly to do it that deep.
 
@LewsTherin the router has one ip address. two messages come to it addressed to the same port, destined for different computers, and the router wouldn't know where to send what.
 
it does need to though. the SRCIP+DSTIP combination doesn't make a unique key
 
@CatPlusPlus python feels like java to me sometimes. I just feel like it should be more elegant. And I need my compiler. I need it to tell me when I type "the_var_i_ned_is_here" instead of "the_var_i_need_is_here". That and I don't like CamelCase. So many little things. Nothing that is really a deal breaker...
heh, I can just say "feels like java" and everyone thinks bad things
 
9:48 PM
FooBar is Pascal case, also you can use your own naming conventions.
 
lol
 
as on the replies the DSTIP isn't the LAN IP anymore, it's the public IP of the nat router
 
@cHao mmn, somehow I missed that part. If the packet uses the port number of the router, then without NAT or some table it wouldn't know the port number of the application.....
 
@CatPlusPlus I'm not old enough to know it as Pascal case. And while I don't name my vars like that, I make typos sometimes and I don't find them until runtime. I need a compiler to tell me "hey bozo! you typed that wrong". As for naming things, I can't change the names of built in stuff. I just gotta deal with it.
 
9:50 PM
It's like that in any dynamic language, really.
Python compiler cannot tell whether name exists upfront, for most part symbol tables can change at any time.
And there are languages with naming conventions enforced.
 
that's why dynamic languages suck monkey balls
 
@CatPlusPlus yeah, and it bothers me in any dynamic language. My python apps just seem to be bigger than the stuff I write in other languages, which is probably a testament to python's power
 
@LewsTherin LANIP+DSTIP is unique from the perspecitve of the nat device
 
I.e. almost every functional language I know.
 
@CatPlusPlus yeah, and that bothers me too
 
9:52 PM
Meh.
It's just a name. Nothing to fuss about.
 
@CatPlusPlus I have seen something like Caps_And_Underscores somewhere. The worst
 
@LewsTherin - but replies from DSTIP don't have DSTIP+LANIP, they have DSTIP+EXTERNALIP
 
@awoodland yeah... but you realize that brings me to my original question? lol
@awoodland oh yes that's true.
 
@CatPlusPlus it is just a name, that is true. I just find names_with_underscores easier to read than NamesWithoutThem. And while totally subjective, I find them easier to type too.
 
I've stopped being bothered by naming conventions a while ago.
 
9:54 PM
I find it more convenient to have caps than underscores
 
I'm stopping being bothered by syntax, also. Although LISP still sucks.
 
@LewsTherin - and replying to errors is easier if your key is per connection
 
everyone needs a typing style that can produce caps quickly anyway
whereas underscores aren't in a convenient easy place
in comparison, anyway
 
@CatPlusPlus naming conventions are to be tolerated.
 
I can write and read underscored and capped names equally fast.
 
9:55 PM
@DeadMG it's completely subjective. I know.
 
@awoodland is it DSTIP + EXTERNALIP? Because EXTERNALIP is DSTIP?
 
OCaml's silly operators are annoying, but even to that you can get used to.
Well, Java is no fun to write, LISP uses too much parens and APL is nightmare from hell, those won't change.
And Perl, and PHP
 
@LewsTherin - yes, on replies that's the case
 
@DeadMG caps are in lots of different places. The underscore is always in the same spot everytime you need it. But I don't think there are any solid reasons to prefer one over the other. It's not like I don't need to type caps all the time anyway...
@CatPlusPlus oh perl and php...
 
basically on replies DSTIP tells you nothing
 
9:56 PM
You're going to be working on different projects with different naming conventions, anyway.
You need to be able to work even with no conventions whatsoever.
 
@awoodland ok, I'm following...
 
Like PHP.
 
@CatPlusPlus yup. I live with it. Same thing with where to place the braces and stuff. You just have to deal.
 
@CatPlusPlus How's the OpenGL working out? =)
 
It's a waste of effort to actually care.
 
9:57 PM
have you made a super tetris clone ?
 
@ManofOneWay Slowly.
 
@CatPlusPlus I have some effort to waste
 
It's that damn school isn't?
That's slowing you down
 
That too.
 
9:59 PM
@awoodland lol I thought there was much. But from this website, it looks like NAT doesn't need the port number of the connection. Just the port number of the router. Looks like I was right in my thinking. computer.howstuffworks.com/nat1.htm
 

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