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9:01 AM
someone please make qtimespan documentation...
@wilx it worked fine for me in visual studio 2012
 
@milleniumbug Windows XP is safe until you install the network drivers.
 
what does Tony & ScottWedding mean?
 
@Raindrop gay marriage?
 
9:19 AM
fuck my stomach hurts
why did i have to eat all these cake yesterday
;lkdja;idjeahfadsfkjadf
 
@BartekBanachewicz alskjdfljwaoier0834uasdf';ds0=34wo
 
@MarkGarcia it's not funny :/ i have an exam later today
I think I won't go to work and try to study for a while
 
@BartekBanachewicz examination at the doctor?
 
if you get a doctor's certificate you might not have to go to the exam
 
@FredOverflow no, embedded
 
9:26 AM
@Telkitty猫咪咪 And if the gets a doctor's degree, he can make his own exams. With black jack and hookers!
 
OK, I've err, 'disposed of' the turbo-curry from last night and, to settle my stomach a bit, I've just had a.... banana sandwich.
 
Speaking of bananas, hi 🍌
 
'moaning
 
@MartinJames how's your willy this morning?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes FTFY
 
9:31 AM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit It has resumed normal service. The fire is out!
 
@MartinJames Sorry to hear that!
 
@BoltClock Thanks.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit The fire from the chilli is out, anyway :)
 
@BoltClock can't help noticing that the history renders strangely, incidentally - the "current version" takes Martinho's name and original post time despite the mod-edited content
@MartinJames ah!
 
9:36 AM
I suppose I should do some w***. I'll open my unicode shite again - preferable to self-flagellation, though there's not much in it.
 
0
Q: Chat message edited by a different user has inconsistencies in the revision history

Lightness Races in Orbit(Similar to When a chat post is edited by another user, it incorrectly shows the editor as the author) When BoltClock modified Martinho's comment in the Lounge, the history lists as "Current Version" both the original author and the original timestamp. This is clearly wrong! PS. Chrome's u...

 
Meh - I still get only a '01F34C' box in Windows FF.
 
I really miss the unicode bananas, since I switched to Chrome.
 
@MartinJames Weird, I see the character just fine. Which Windows are you on?
 
@BoltClock Vista Ultimate 64
 
9:41 AM
Do you guys tend to avoid trailing-return-types?
 
Hm. It looks like the emoji update is available for Windows 7 only
Can't find anything for Vista
 
@Potatoswatter no
 
Been planning to update to W7 for some time, but I'm afraid of some cockup wasting days on a reloading stuff, finding old licence keys, reinstalling Vmware, dev stuff etc etc. nightmare.
 
@LucDanton Even if it doesn't mention any parameters?
 
Yes.
 
9:47 AM
Hmm. I'm only aware of one problem… recursive function templates can run away when the trailing-return-type makes the name visible in the return type spec.
But I might have to look into revising my style rules.
 
planning to update to W8 for sometimes, have free copies
 
I don't like trailing returns.
 
but never got around to it - I need to be more efficient
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ok.\r\r\r\r
 
9:52 AM
ITT @BoltClock broke chat.
 
Oops.🍌🍌🍌🍌🍌 — BoltClock's a Unicorn 6 mins ago
 
> This road was named the Road of Life. (...) Because of the high winter death toll the route also became known as the "Road of Death".
 
@Potatoswatter Normally, no. Unless they are members.
I.e. the point of declaration starts after the trailing return type, if that speaks to you.
 
@LucDanton It does? Hmm, OK. I'm just going by memories of GCC experience.
My workday is over, toodles!
 
9:58 AM
I'll check. It's a rule of thumb I heavily relies on anyway, so better support it.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit did you mean twitter posts automoved to fb?
 
GCC currently implements it like I said.
 
Hmm. I wonder if W8 will run on my old P4 dev box? I have to get W8 to ensure that my apps install/run on it, but I wouldn't want to actually use it for anything else.
 
meh, it should. how much ram you have is more important
 
E.g. int foo(long) { return 0; } auto foo(int i) -> decltype( foo(i) ) { return foo(i); } compiles but calling foo(0) doesn't terminate.
 
10:00 AM
@BartekBanachewicz Oh yeah. I don't know - can't remember. I'll have to boot it up and ask it.
 
And ADL has no effect.
 
Also I am listening to Kaki King
I forgot who here was such a fan of her
but i gotta say she's damn good.
 
@BartekBanachewicz No.
@BartekBanachewicz Me.
@BartekBanachewicz Yes!
 
@BartekBanachewicz [Google], OK, I'm interested :) I will get some of her stuff.
 
@BartekBanachewicz FB has hashtags now.
 
10:07 AM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I know, I was wondering if I my twitter posts with them would move to fb tags too
because I post the goodies on twitter anyway
@MartinJames I am listening to the "Glow" album ATM
 
Apparently I cannot even implement map properly.
 
lol! FB has hashtags LOL!
 
has anybody here already played with Rust? It looks quite promising!
 
Apr 3 at 22:15, by R. Martinho Fernandes
@LucDanton Does building a hello world count?
 
10:17 AM
It's still quite immature, btw.
 
I’m looking at a presentation, but that irritates me royally because it always compares to C and consistently ignores C++ and D
 
until it gets wide industry recognition it's just a toy
 
@BartekBanachewicz lolwut?
 
like Terra, unfortunately :(
@R.MartinhoFernandes if it's indeed meant to replace C++
 
10:19 AM
Damn, it's been a while since I've used Boost.Filesystem. If I have a path, what do I use to feed an API? The native format?
 
I mean there are cool, niche languages that are good.
but C++ is the workhorse of industry
 
@BartekBanachewicz That's not any of its design goals.
 
now I was under impression Rust aims at the latter
 
The API in question is a boost::interprocess::mapped_file, and it doesn't say much about what it accepts.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ok ignore me then.
 
10:21 AM
Its design goals are quite un-C++-y.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Actually they explicitly are, insofar as we can trust Bjarne in characterising C++ as a language “with a bias towards systems programming”
 
'un-C++-y': UB
 
that chat bug is "by design" apparently. SO is such a pile of shit lately
 
@KonradRudolph Where did you read that Rust was meant for systems programming?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes In said presentation: catamorphism.org/Writing/Rust-Tutorial-tjc.pdf
 
10:23 AM
They use the word "large-scale" all over.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Perhaps it's intended for programming large-scale systems
 
4 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
but C++ is the workhorse of industry
which I more or less meant
 
@BartekBanachewicz I don't see the relation.
 
maybe it exists just in my head
 
@KonradRudolph Well, I have never seen it before in any official documentation.
 
10:25 AM
The presentation is by one of the Rust developers, at least
 
@BartekBanachewicz They use "large-scale" to describe the kind of software they target, not the intended popularity.
 
and it uses many, many of the concepts in C++, and the presentation explicitly mentions that they want to provide “zero-cost abstractions” which is exactly what C++ excels at
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes and I meant that being the workhorse is something that's used to power large backends, backend being rendering or js engine, or just powerful server computations
@KonradRudolph apparently they want "C++ done right"
 
@KonradRudolph Having overlapping usage spaces doesn't mean they are designing to replace it.
 
@BartekBanachewicz And man, are they doing a good job at it, at least as far as the concepts are concerned. This looks almost exactly like the toy language I’ve been thinking about for >10 years now.
 
10:28 AM
For example, do they provide a migration path from C++?
Something designed to replace C++ would.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, I am not surprised considering they don't have to be concerned with background compatibility
@R.MartinhoFernandes or not, if they idealistically think that people will just start writing Rust instead of C++
 
I want to bring this nonsense to your attention, once again
0
A: Chat message edited by a different user has inconsistencies in the revision history

balphaThe "current version" is exactly what is shown in the transcript. And regardless of the editing, the message was still written by R. Martinho, and is thus attributed to him, and it was still posted at 9:29. So this behavior is entirely correct.

 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Not necessarily … migration paths are a mixed bag because they always imply taking on ballast from the past
they may not intend to replace every C++ code base but its use in the future
 
i.e. magical transition
magical, because requires training developers
 
Is haskell implemented in C/C++?
 
10:30 AM
@BartekBanachewicz lolwut
It always does.
@ShuklaSannidhya Or other stuff.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes one of the reasons C++ gained any attention was that it was proved that cost of integration will be amortized by lower cost of maintenace compared to C
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ... which is...
 
@ShuklaSannidhya Who knows.
 
do you think that the same will hold for C++ -> Rust?
 
You need to ask a better question if you want a better answer.
 
Xeo
10:31 AM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit It's consistent, btw. Check any other history, the name and time are from the original post, with the updated text
 
@ShuklaSannidhya Mostly in Haskell, actually
 
I don't know all Haskell implementations out there.
 
@KonradRudolph what? How is that?
 
@ShuklaSannidhya there is no such language as C/C++
 
@BartekBanachewicz You think C++ didn't require training developers?
 
10:32 AM
In computer science, bootstrapping is the process of writing a compiler (or assembler) in the target programming language which it is intended to compile. Applying this technique leads to a self-hosting compiler. Many compilers for many programming languages are bootstrapped, including compilers for BASIC, ALGOL, C, Pascal, PL/I, Factor, Haskell, Modula-2, Oberon, OCaml, Common Lisp, Scheme, Java, Python, Scala and more. Advantages Bootstrapping a compiler has the following advantages: "Compiler Construction and Bootstrapping" by P.D.Terry 2000. [http://www.oopweb.com/Compilers/Docum...
 
There is only one solution that doesn't require training developers: staying with the same.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes read again. It was an investment bound to repay in the future. And C++, at least at that point, was similar to C
it was designed to be easily trained
so it was a tradeoff between the past and the future
 
@BartekBanachewicz No, no, write again. You are constantly rephrasing what you say. How can we discuss anything like that.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes "cost of integration" = "cost of training" + other stuffs
 
@BartekBanachewicz You said "magical, because requires training developers". C++ required that as well, therefore magical as well.
 
10:34 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes yes, but C++ kept that fact in mind and tried to minimize the impact. Is Rust doing the same WRT C++ or whatever -> Rust?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, but you didn't care to mention that until I lolwuted.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well I thought that the whole industry C->C++ transition was known to you and thus you will see what I am pointing out.
I'll try to be more precise next time :F
 
@ShuklaSannidhya Fact: a Haskell compiler exists. Fact: a Haskell compiler can compile programs written in Haskell. Fact: a Haskell compiler is a program. Therefore you can compile a Haskell compiler written in Haskell. Pretty simple, actually.
 
C++'s compilers are written in C++ too
 
for(auto it = seq::begin(m); it != seq::end(m); ++it) {
    std::cout << *it;
}
// prints elements of the sequence
std::vector<double> result(seq::begin(m), seq::end(m));
// empty vector...
WTF
 
10:42 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes why no range for?
 
@BartekBanachewicz I changed the code to be explicit so I can pinpoint the issue. Only generated more WTFs though.
 
derp.
I watched Bjarne's talk (recently published) and it gave me a lot of things to think about
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's consuming the range on first iteration?
 
Ah, no, I run the two separately.
 
hm, singlepass range.
 
Xeo
10:44 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ah
That is strange. Any weird copy behaviour for the iterators?
 
Not by design.
 
okay, Rust has lost me
 
T rangewise<T>(range) { return T(begin(range), end(range)); }

auto result = rangewise<vector<double>>(seq::range(m));
 
Oooh, got it. I was still using the broken optional implementation. Need to update submodules.
 
10:46 AM
I am recently more and more offended by begin and end :v
 
the author must be masochistic or asciiphile
 
@KonradRudolph wtf it's T* in C++, not *T
 
crashed upon starting
lovely
 
@BartekBanachewicz I call that function materialize. It was also what I was using at first, but again I inlined manually while debugging.
 
@Abyx I thnk they mean usage here although yes, the slide does imply declaration
 
10:48 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes i like that name
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes wow, so it makes sense? It just came to my mind derply.
 
:10133234 dereferencing … but yes, that doesn’t hold up
I also don’t like the distinction, I think it’s a bit stupid
for instance it fails to distinguish properly between a pointer to an object vs. a pointer into a buffer
 
pointers must die
 
not at all.
 
@BartekBanachewicz and what will you use instead?
 
10:52 AM
Hmm, updated submodules, still broken :S
 
@BartekBanachewicz have a great exam
 
@Raindrop great memorizing of PIC and BT specifications, huh?
 
a man gotta do what a man gotta do
 
and the Rust presentation seems to be ignorant of C++11
 
It's from 2013. C++11 in 2013? haha.
auto first = seq::begin(m);
auto last = seq::end(m);
auto copy = first;
auto copy2 = last;
for(auto it = copy; it != copy2; ++it) {
    result.push_back(*it);
}
@Xeo Copies don't seem to be an issue :/
 
11:09 AM
Does anyone know where Jalf is?
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Strange. What exactly does the vector ctor do?
 
Ok...
My Indian boss did not know he could use properties files in Visual Studio 2010. :(
 
is SFINAE on a generic lambda allowed?
 
Xeo
11:23 AM
@JohannesSchaub-litb [](auto e) -> decltype(e.size()){ ... }?
 
Xeo
I'd guess so?
Since the return type is taken just like that for the operator() of the resulting closure type
 
but you cant overload it?
 
Xeo
overload(a, b)! :D
Btw, I don't think trailing return type might necessarily be needed.
[](auto e){ return e.size(); } should also trigger sfinae
 
hmm
are you sure?
 
Xeo
11:30 AM
Actually, how the return-type is determined for generic lambdas might be underspecified.
I'd have to look at the proposal again
But the only sensible options are auto without trailing, or decltype(expr) (which would be equivalent to decltype(auto))
And IIRC, auto and decltype(auto) will trigger SFINAE on the return-expression.
 
i seem to remember something like "if the return type is depedent, it is waited until instantiation to determine its type"
 
Xeo
Oh what, void foo(auto e) isn't in C++14?
 
user1182183
does anyone know where I can buy a 4.8gbps usb 3.0 network adapter? (to connect two usb 3.0 pc's) I can only find 1gbps
 
@Xeo Some crap with a base that seems to be optimised so I can't step into it :/
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Eh, jump into the header itself. :P
Also, try making some more copies! :D
 
11:44 AM
@Xeo Not everything in the draft at this point I think.
 
what the hell is Rust
 
(gdb) p &storage
$12 = (wheels::meta::Invoke *) 0x7fffffffc6c8
haha, templates are awesome :(
 
Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh.
 
Not enough typename?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Mine doesn't do that btw.
 
11:51 AM
Nah.
@LucDanton I don't even know what it is doing. Invoke is a goddamn alias template... you cannot point to it
 
Although I have to say this is extremely volatile and I don't really update my GDB in step with all the snapshots I get.
 
Pro-tip: don't advertise your iterators as forward if they really aren't.
 
@GamErix what are you gonna do with that? :o
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ahaha
1 hour ago, by Xeo
That is strange. Any weird copy behaviour for the iterators?
I think that counts! :P
 
Also, FTR, libstdc++ vector assumes forward iterators are cheap to iterate twice.
Anyway, woot, map, finally.
 
12:11 PM
hmmm
 
Talking about weddings: AWWW.
 
can you not say #define STRING_TMPL_ARG(X) decltype([]{struct { const char constexpr *operator() { return X; } x; return x; }()) and use it as a trick to pass types encorporating string literals?
 
Local types are allowed in lambdas?
 
you could then say template<typename V> struct A { void print() { cout << V()(); } }; passing it A<STRING_TMPL_ARG("aaahaha it works")>
yes
unfortunately I think it is disallowed to use lambda within unevaluated contexts :(
 
Well, if you could do that you could also get something like Xeo's []f proposal.
 
12:22 PM
hm
 
12:33 PM
@Luc do you have something like a pair source+range from it? What do you call it?
Who the fuck flagged that.
 
@JohannesSchaub-litb Also closure types are not default constructible.
 
@LucDanton oh i see -.- wait, i didn'T pass the closure type. i passed its return type
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes No. I've just used map(dereference {}, interval(p, p + end)) though.
 
FOR FUCK SAKE!
 
people.
Stop being kids.
 
12:34 PM
Stop flagging numbers!
 
Thank you.
 
@JohannesSchaub-litb Oh right. Clever.
 
what's this insanity?
 
and @R.MartinhoFernandes seeing your messages flagged, stop being childish.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Are you mad?
 
12:35 PM
lol
 
JBL
Haha !
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes If I do typeid(U).name() is that a runtime or a compile time call? (if it's runtime, any way of getting the same info at compile time?)
 
who wants a ban?
 
@MadaraUchiha @Gordon See the spammer @R.MartinhoFernandes
 
12:37 PM
Are you saying @R.MartinhoFernandes should be banned? If so you''re a definite troll
 
@Borgleader Runtime.
 
@Gordon Oo! Oooo! Me! Me!!!! (not really)
 
I can see lots of names on these 18 flags and I can see one person posting. so its really your choice. does anyone need a ban?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Damn... I've been toying around with ideas for a reflection system and I'm trying to shift as many of the operations im doing to compile time to reduce overhead.
 
looks like Martinho has been quitened already by the flaggers
 
12:39 PM
Thanks?
 
you're welcome
 
i'm sure he didn't do it deliberately. perhaps it was a coworker on his box?
 
@JohannesSchaub-litb An evil twin perhaps?
 
@Borgleader I don't think there's much use for a type's name at compile-time.
FWIW, the typeid(U) bit, assuming U is a type and not an expression, is resolved at compile-time, so there's really no overhead.
 
I'm trying to fill a type info structure with type name, size, and member variables (with name/offset/type info)
and later I'll work on member functions and possibly enums
 
12:43 PM
Fill it will typeinfo, size, and member variables, then?
 
The thing is right now I'm doing most of it at runtime when the templates constructor is called =/
 
Anyway, if I wanted to enable reflection for C++ types, I'd write a code generator, or a clang plugin or something of that ilk.
 
I'm not fond of parsing text files to compile the info but maybe that would be a wiser solution
 
user1182183
@melak47 file sharing between ram drives :P
 
I saw this other design on the web that used a TypeDB where all other types were registered and I wasn't quite fond of it
 
12:46 PM
The hell just happened?
 
^
 
@KonradRudolph are you advocating the use of rust over C++ ? :P
 
@Borgleader I'll do some grepping on the transcript and give you some useful links.
As soon as chat search starts cooperating, that is.
 
@Jeffrey i tried to keep the channel clean of human generated random numbers
 
So Martinho posted a bunch of numbers that got flagged. Did we need Gordon to come by for this?
 
12:50 PM
I stopped when it started to become letters and another one continued so I realized another one joined my effort
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Cool, thanks :)
 
@JohannesSchaub-litb I personally wouldn't have flagged any of those message. But I'm glad everything went fine anyway.
 
@Jeffrey yes, I'm glad noone got hurt
 
@Borgleader There was proposal a while back that used a mixed solution with a library part that would be backed by compiler-generated tables. Here's a link to the proposal N3340, and a bookmakr with a short discussion
I think that would be real cool to have. You can still generate the tables from user-code instead, but it will never be as automatic and as rich as if the compiler does it.
 
Thanks I'll take a look at that right away :)
 
12:57 PM
The T% syntax used in the proposal can quite easily be replaced by a rich_ptr<T> class, too.
 
Nice
 
1:18 PM
hmm, interesting
the D bidirectional range is just a forward range from both directions, effectively.
 
user142019
What is new (std::rich) T? Placement new, or some new construct?
 
Looks like placement new?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Wide could probably do it.
 
@rightfold it's in the paper.
 
user142019
Oh right. :v
 
1:30 PM
Technically, it's placement new: any new (whatever goes here) T syntax is placement new. We tend to mean the default placement new operator when we say "placement new" though.
 
user142019
x86-64 is such a pain.
 
Hello
 
still better than unexpected anal
 
@Gorfi I like your avatar, sir.
 
Thanks Jeffrey.
 
guh indeed
 
Xeo
@DeadMG The question is: Do you need anything else when you can save ranges?
 
probably not.
it hadn't occurred to me to do something quite so simple
 
Xeo
There's no such thing as named lambda. lambda's type is std::function<void(X)>. — jrok 2 mins ago
Ugh, I expected better from jrok.
 
bleh
each lambda present has a different type, is that correct?
 
Xeo
1:48 PM
ya
 
Fuck. Cannot do this as a std::pair
 
std::pear
 
i don't get the sentence it's too complicated.
 
JBL
1:53 PM
Mmmh... Quick question : will using the syntax for(auto a : my_std_vector) result in sequential access to the vector ? I would say yes, but I'd like to be sure...
 
JBL
Ok thanks !
 
for (auto& node : container) is equivalent to for (auto node = container.begin(); node != container.end(); ++node)
 
OMG a missing semicolon error. I am ashamed.
 
JBL
Don't know why I'm always scared that these "simple" loop constructs might not do what I want (might have to deal with the fact that I don't really know what happens behing the scene, while when I use iterators it's more explicit)
 
1:56 PM
Is it possible to get range-based for loops to loop backwards?
 
{
    auto && __range = range-init;
    for ( auto __begin = begin-expr,
            __end = end-expr;
            __begin != __end;
            ++__begin ) {
        for-range-declaration = *__begin;
        statement
    }
}
 
Xeo
for(auto&& e : seq::reverse(range))
 
@JBL for ( for-range-declaration : range-init ) statement more or less transforms into the above thing (begin-expr and end-expr and calls to begin() and end() as appropriate to accomodate containers, arrays, and other stuffs that can be beginned and ended by ADL).
 
JBL
@R.MartinhoFernandes Thank you !
 

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