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8:00 PM
HMm, I'm also going to have to run Dwarf Fortress with some tool or other to take screenshots.
 
Ell
has anyone got a very simple lexer that can lex string literals?
 
I've got one.
@Ell here but I warn you: the code is horrible. It also does escaping with backslashes.
 
@Ell I only have a very complicated one with a preprocessor :(
 
Ell
@MooingDuck a preparser?
 
@Ell fix'd
 
Ell
8:04 PM
haha
 
stringLiteralLexer = between "\"" "\"" (string "\\\"" <|> anyChar) Did I mention Parsec is awesome?
 
Ell
My attempt at writing a lexer resulted in this little finite state machine thing... :P
 
@RMartinhoFernandes What is parsec exactly? (Apart from this.)
 
@Ell good way to write a lexer
 
> Parsec is designed from scratch as an industrial-strength parser library. It is simple, safe, well documented (on the package homepage), has extensive libraries and good error messages, and is also fast. It is defined as a monad transformer that can be stacked on arbitrary monads, and it is also parametric in the input stream type.
 
Ell
8:06 PM
@MooingDuck it was the only way I could do it because the only way I can understand it is with diagrams :s
 
@StackedCrooked en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsec_(disambiguation) My guess is a Parser combinator for Haskell
 
@StackedCrooked compare it to Boost Spirit but for Haskell (and, therefore much better).
 
(The "well documented" part is a lie, btw :(
 
@Ell that's how mine works, there's nothing wrong with a state machine lexer. I wouldn't be surprised if that's more or less how the big ones work.
 
Ell
8:07 PM
@MooingDuck pastebin.com/0RpSWMnf <-- My hodgepodge attempt. It lexes... an integer at the moment. And a decimal. It's really aweful... (But check it out anyway)
 
@RMartinhoFernandes A self-annulling prophecy?
 
@Ell I don't know that language
 
Looks like Ruby.
 
Yep, it's Ruby.
 
8:09 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes I've heard nothing good about Ruby
 
@MooingDuck Ruby is good.
Now you can never make that statement again :D
 
I've never heard anything wrong about Ruby, ever.
Just like Haskell.
 
Ruby is silly.
 
Ruby is awesome.
 
Ell
I just think ruby is so awesome... its like writing in english, its so easy!
 
8:10 PM
Open classes are nightmarish.
 
Ell
apart from without so many ambiguities
 
Sigils are stupid.
 
@StackedCrooked shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/… The fastest Ruby outlyer is half the speed as the slowest Java outlyer
 
Hidden magic variables are Perl stupid.
 
@daknøk Cat fixed that for you.
 
8:11 PM
@MooingDuck Twice as fast as Perl doesn't seem so bad (considering it's purpose). According to that chart it's even faster than Python 3.
 
She is awesome isn't she
 
Perl is stupid
 
Xeo
Funny, libc++'s std::cerr is buggy and always abort()s
 
is perl even a regular language?
 
@TonyTheLion It's undecidable.
 
8:12 PM
No programming language is regular.
 
Ell
you cant parse it with anything but perl can you?
 
@StackedCrooked When you have to compare a language to Perl to say good things about it...
 
Ell
brainf*ck must be... surely...
 
@StackedCrooked 44 times slower than C does though
 
yea I was just thinking that no programming can be regular
 
8:13 PM
Brainfuck requires matching brackets.
 
Ell
oh yeah :s
 
@MooingDuck Judge the language on it's selling points. You may as well say C++ sucks because it sucks when you try to use it as a scripting language.
 
@MooingDuck Screw performance. The language has enough nasties even without an implementation.
 
Would it be true to say, that the moment you need to match bracket pairs, you have an irregular language?
 
SUBLEQ
@TonyTheLion If they nest.
 
8:14 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes subtract less or equal?
 
I was about to note that Ruby isn't that much slower than any other scripting language, but then wondered, where does javascript fall nowdays? I want javascript added to those benchmarks
 
@TonyTheLion Subtract and branch if less than or equal to zero.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes is that x86?
 
There is no such thing as scripting language, dammit.
Or language performance.
 
Ell
A language used for scripting?
 
8:16 PM
@MooingDuck JavaScript had lots of engineering effort poured into making it fast. Ruby didn't have so much.
A one instruction set computer (OISC), sometimes called an ultimate reduced instruction set computer (URISC), is an abstract machine that uses only one instruction – obviating the need for a machine language opcode. With a judicious choice for the single instruction and given infinite resources, an OISC is capable of being a universal computer in the same manner as traditional computers that have multiple instructions. OISCs have been recommended as aids in teaching computer architecture and have been used as computational models in structural computing research. Machine architecture In...
 
Aside from that, V8 is pretty fast.
 
@Ell any language can be used for scripting.
 
It's JITed an' all.
 
Ell
@daknøk but when you do use it for scripting, it's your scripting language
 
@CatPlusPlus no, but some languages happen to have faster implementations than others.
 
8:17 PM
Plus, not counting retarded typing and scoping, JS is pretty simple and functional.
 
Anyone an idea why most software on this Wikipedia page is written in Fortran?
 
Because scientific community likes Fortran.
 
Ell
speed?
 
And NumPy.
 
I see.
 
8:18 PM
Actually lately I find myself resorting to shell scripting.
 
@MooingDuck But it's not the performance of the language.
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus it's the performance of the implementation?
 
@CatPlusPlus fine, colloquial terms are wrong. Either way, I do not like languages that do not have a fast implementation.
 
@Ell Difficult concept, isn't it?
 
I like languages as long as they are not Java or Malbolge.
 
8:19 PM
@daknøk PHP?
Perl?
 
or PHP.
Never used Perl, so I can't say.
 
Trust us and don't.
 
I like Haskell.
 
Me too.
 
I like Haskell, too!
 
Ell
8:20 PM
I like ruby!
 
You're crazy.
 
Ell
and vb.net (at least it's not vb6)
 
Point in case.
 
Last time I used Ruby was when I needed to make the border of an image transparent. I didn't know how to use a image editor so I resorted to Ruby bindings for ImageMagick and hacked this in a matter of minutes. (I had never even used ImageMagick before.)
 
8:20 PM
@CatPlusPlus javascript is a good example of what you were talking about
 
@Ell I feel the need to flag that.
 
Ell
@daknøk flag what?
 
@MooingDuck Being crazy for liking it?
 
@Ell that you like VB.net. d;
 
Ell
@StackedCrooked see, ruby is awesome!
 
8:21 PM
@CatPlusPlus no, a language that had slow implementations forever, and then suddenly had a bunch of fast implementations.
 
Ell
@daknøk haha oops i thought you liked vb6 or something :P
 
Ah, yes. Because performance is not a property of the language.
Though some might be more predisposed for a particular implementation scheme than others.
C or C++ are pretty much designed to be implemented the way they usually are.
 
@Ell Agreed!
 
Ell
yay :D
 
@Ell Haskell is awesomer.
 
Ell
8:23 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes I am trying with it, but I can't "get" it
 
MacRuby seems to be incredibly fast.
Oh wait, it compiles to machine code.
 
Many language implementations do nowadays.
It's called JIT.
 
Ell
is there a jitted c++ implementation?
 
@CatPlusPlus MacRuby does ahead of time compilation.
 
Ell
Does python have different implementations?
 
8:27 PM
It might attach the bytecode to VM executable.
 
yep
 
Ruby is fairly dynamic.
I don't know if you can compile it raw like that.
 
Objective-C comes close in terms of dynamically-ism.
 
@Ell PyPy.
 
@Ell python.org/download it actually lists the alternative implementations first.
 
8:28 PM
Other implementations are more or less dead.
 
Ell
Ruby is awesomely dynamic. I think "pure" OOP is a very interesting concept
 
What's "pure" OOP?
Ruby's open classes are one of the worst language design decisions I've ever seen.
 
@CatPlusPlus Everything is an object™.
 
And I've seen PHP.
Ruby didn't even invent that.
 
Dumb question.
If I have an integer, how do I get the rightmost value?
 
8:30 PM
@CatPlusPlus it's pretty obvious which languages in teh test are compiled/JIT vs interpreted :/
 
@Moshe define "rightmost value".
 
@Moshe the lowest bit is i&1, the highest is (usually) i&(1u<<31)
 
Say, int x = 4567, how do I get 7?
 
It's called "digit" not "rightmost value".
 
The units digit.
 
8:30 PM
@Moshe oh, x%10
 
It's the remainder of integer division by 10.
 
JavaScript also has open classes and that is not one of its aspects that make it a sucky language.
 
Wow, I'm dumb, thanks guys.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes in base 10, of course.
 
Every base is base 10.
 
8:32 PM
false, see base one.
 
All your base are base 10.
2
 
@StackedCrooked JavaScript doesn't even have classes.
 
Ell
let me guess, prototypes? :P
 
JS object system is painful and annoying.
Combined with utterly stupid type system which is painful and annoying on its own.
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus working with a strong & static type system can make a guy pedantic ;)
 
8:33 PM
Using the this pointer in JavaScript is confusing.
 
I can live with a dynamic type system.
But not with weak dynamic one.
 
I don't like JavaScript
 
Gosh, this in JavaScript.
I could write thousand rants about this in JavaScript.
 
8:34 PM
Some truths about JavaScript and Ruby: destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat
 
someone said I should learn Android
because it's easy to get a job when you know Android
this means I have to face Java.... I don't know if I can ever be ready for that
 
Don't you have a job already?
 
@TonyTheLion don't.
 
I have Embedded Systems class this semester, we're doing set-top-boxes with MHP and Android.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes it's a contract with an end
 
8:35 PM
In my code my main object is declared as var app = {}. And after that I always refer to app instead of this. It's kind of cargo cult programming, but at least it's consistent.
 
@CatPlusPlus what's your thoughts on Android?
 
The idiom is var self = this;, so that it's closed over.
 
oh I've got my fair share of embedded programming in this job
C and ARM
 
Or fn.bind(this);
 
8:37 PM
[] + [] === '' -_-
 
Using globals is meh.
@TonyTheLion It's second week, we just began MHP part.
 
I should learn more about JavaScript idioms though since I've been using it quite a bit in the past.
 
@CatPlusPlus ah ok
 
Ell
whats wrong with
a = a
=> nil
 
I should just learn Brainfuck and write brainfuck
 
8:38 PM
I'm not very interested in smartphones in general.
 
I wonder if anyone is looking for a brainfuck developer
@CatPlusPlus right, but it has a big market, and there's lots of demand, which is what you want when you are looking for a job
 
@Ell a doesn't exist, and yet it's created and the value is taken from the air.
 
C++ has demand too, but they always want people with lots and lots of experience
 
@TonyTheLion I wrote a kewl Fibonacci generator once (it "scrolls" across the memory tape). Maybe I should put that on my CV.
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus doesn't nil mean doesn't exist?
 
8:39 PM
No.
 
@TonyTheLion what about Objective-C?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes you should
 
If you don't get forced to work in a preexisting crappy codebase then Java isn't too bad IMO. It's still bad, but not nightmarishly bad.
 
nil |nil|
noun
zero, esp. as a score in certain games: they beat us three-nil.
 
@daknøk never done objective C
done some Lua
 
8:40 PM
Obj-C sucks mightily.
 
@StackedCrooked Is there a "not" missing in that sentence?
 
I don't want to write that even for money.
 
and learned about Lua interpreter, although I don't understand much of it yet
 
@CatPlusPlus You get used to it.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Thanks!
 
8:40 PM
I prefer to use something else.
 
running a Lua interpreter on an ARM architecture
 
My time is extremely limited as it is.
I don't need to waste it on crappy languages.
 
@CatPlusPlus I hope you find a job that allows you to live up to that statement.
 
@StackedCrooked you talking to me?
 
I write Python for now.
 
8:42 PM
@TonyTheLion Nope, was saying to Cat.
 
I like Python, though I haven't used it much, I do like the bits I did use
 
I don't know if I'll manage to keep it, with semesters getting exponentially more time-consuming and all.
 
I like that in Python a < b < c actually does what you would expect.
 
Ell
@daknøk a < b and b < c ?
 
And not that c is less than 1 or 0.
 
8:43 PM
I'm having serious cigarette cravings, this is my fourth day not smoking
 
@Ell yes.
 
trying to quit, for the nth time
 
I am happy if I can do C++ in a codebase of decent quality.
 
@TonyTheLion Pretend like you must write Java for eternity if you ever smoke again.
 
Ell
@daknøk does a < b < c < ... n work?
 
8:43 PM
this is another issue, codebases being sucky
@daknøk lol
 
@TonyTheLion Didn't you quit a while back?
 
@Ell How'd you expect that to work?
 
@Ell a < b < c < d < e < f < g? Of course. With the actual ... n? NO
 
actually, I kind of got scared of smoking
@RMartinhoFernandes yea but only lasted 3 weeks
 
@StackedCrooked Tehehehe, "C++ codebase of decent quality".
 
8:44 PM
@CatPlusPlus I know.
Oxymoron.
 
There are definitely morons involved.
 
Well, you should see ours :(
@CatPlusPlus Lol!
 
@StackedCrooked post it.
 
@daknøk And lose the job, right?
 
@daknøk Nope.
 
8:45 PM
@daknøk Post what? Their codebase?
What are you smoking?
 
Guess what I'm smoking. (<— joke)
 
Something that looses senses and it is suck.
 
weed?
 
@TonyTheLion I live in the Netherlands, what else would you expect? :P
 
8:46 PM
@daknøk weed sucks
 
I know, never tried it but one my friend does.
 
Ell
@daknøk is marijuana legal in holland?
 
It's improving, I've managed to convince them to introduce -Wall -Werror in the build system. At some places even -Wextra. Gasp!
 
@Ell Not really but you may have 5 g/day. The police doesn't care.
 
@TonyTheLion But cigarettes are okay, right?
 
8:47 PM
Will std::ignore(n) fail if it consumes past EOF or not?
 
Ell
All recreational drugs are bad!
 
@StackedCrooked Wow, -Werror?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes they suck too, but I did still get addicted
 
Ell
I think smoking & drinking should be outlawed
 
yes, I admit that smoking is wrong, and unhealthy, even though I smoked for about 5 years
get over it
 
Ell
8:48 PM
well actually no, I think that if I had my own country thats how it would be :L
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Yeah, it was funny though. They easily agree to me when I suggested introducing -Wextra. Only when I reminded them of -Werror the pupils in their eyes started narrowing.
 
@Ell It makes things worse, not better, you know.
Ever heard of prohibition in US?
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus why? o.O
 
@Ell if you make that illegal then people start dealing and murdering.
 
8:49 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes But in the end I went ahead with -Wextra + -Werror and fixed all the errors myself. This was doable since I had been doing that silently for over a year, a little bit at a time.
 
Ell
yeah thats why if i had my own country from scratch it would be illegla in the first place
as opposed to outlawing it. I wish i had a miniature island country :D
 
Making it illegal is outlawing it.
 
@Ell Right. You're confusing "illegal" with "nonexistent". It's not the same word.
 
And it creates more problem than it solves.
Same with existing drug laws, really.
 
8:50 PM
@StackedCrooked You sneaky bastard.
 
@Ell including caffeine? Some consider that a mind-altering substance
 
@MooingDuck NOOO! D:
 
@StackedCrooked I've been doing that too
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus well I mean "outlawing" as in it was legal in the first place, as opposed to "illegal" as it was never legal anyway
@MooingDuck is caffeine used as a recreational drug? o.O
 
@MooingDuck Caffeine is not recreational. Caffeine is used for work.
 
8:51 PM
@Ell illegal isn't a verb, outlowing is. That's why your sentence is true.
 
@Ell And still, no difference.
 
I also managed to push unit testing. And now they are even working on integrating clang analyzer into the build system.
 
Ell
@daknøk I was trying to explain to catplusplus when he said making it illegal is outlawing it which I think is wrong
 
And silly, because you deny yourselves taxes from it.
Outlawing = making it illegal.
 
Ell
In my country, there are no taxes!!!!
 
8:52 PM
@Ell in Belgium there are, but people don't care.
 
tr.v. out·lawed, out·law·ing, out·laws
1. To declare illegal: outlawed the sale of firearms.
2. To place under a ban; prohibit: outlawed smoking in the house.
 
@daknøk People do care.
 
Ell
In the uk people definately care
 
@Ell Yeah, right.
 
Ell
I hope you all know this is my imaginary country, right?
 
8:53 PM
And magical fairies roam through the land.
 
@StackedCrooked In the news today (NOS Journaal) they said that avoiding taxes is a national sport in Belgium. :P
 
Ell
magic is also banned
 
Country with no taxes whatsoever simply wouldn't work.
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus I agree actually, but I think we could live without free healthcare & education
 
@CatPlusPlus it might be able to, it would be inherently corrupted though
 
Ell
8:54 PM
but things like law enforcement would need to be public
 
@StackedCrooked Nice. What mind-controlling substance did you put in the coffee machine?
 
ah curses. I just replaced a local file with one from the source control. What'd I lose? :( I should read pop ups more often before clicking the first button.
 
What about the Pitcairn Islands?
 
Ell
@daknøk looked at those this morning on google maps
its just an empty island...
 
8:56 PM
@daknøk yea, it's considered "normal"
 
@Ell no there live people there. 67 to be exact.
 
@Ell then C++ is not allowed?
 
Ell
@TonyTheLion C++ is a recreational drug, or magic?
 
magic
 
black magic
 
8:57 PM
only nerds and uber nerds do C++ for recreational purposes
 
Recreational magic drug.
 
us lot, thus
 
Ell
I think would class myself as a nerd
 
gah. Maybe I shouldn't torture Visual Studio 9 with such complicated tasks such as scrolling
 
Ell
what determines nerd/uber nerd?
 
8:58 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes During evaluation sessions I mentioned a few times that I find code quality very important. Strangely enough that seemed to be enough to cause change.
 
@Ell someone who does C++ for recreational purposes
 
@Ell übernerds are more nerdy than nerds.
 
this ^
@MooingDuck lol
 
Ell
@MooingDuck I write c++ for recreational purposes :s
 
sbi
The puppeteer is back! Did you notice, @CheersandhthAlf?!
 
8:59 PM
who is the puppeteer?
 
@TonyTheLion Pubby
 
@TonyTheLion I picked a not-quite random name, I have no idea what sbi is talking about
 

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