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2:00 AM
Gravity (whichever model of it) hasn't been formally proved and won't ever be. Still useful to describe falling.
 
Yep, that's exactly what I was trying to point out, that there must exist some force that keeps us "in the place".
 
@ScottW careful with that one, because there's also a colloquial definition which is different, and matches his usage
 
@MooingDuck I have no idea.
 
@DzekTrek Can you describe the reasoning that lead you to use the words 'there must exist'?
 
@DzekTrek because you randomly said "I am not sure that electromagnetism is the force that keeps our universe in the place.". I had assumed this was in response to Luc's prompt about thermodynamics.
 
2:01 AM
@DzekTrek russkaya svyazuyusshchigo = proper grammar? (русская связующего)
 
No, I replied on someone answer about electromagnetism, thermodynamics or whatever. Just scroll back and you will see. @MooingDuck
 
My last message was 2^7 messages ago.
 
@DzekTrek you're right, I missed that. My bad.
 
I think.
 
@LucDanton without doubt there wouldn't be a proof. Something must exist cause anything else would be just" flipping in the sand ".
 
2:03 AM
@Maxpm count
 
@Hoxieboy Konecno ( Of course ). Just keep going. :)
 
@DzekTrek (they will simply argue with whatever opinion you make, just let them have there points and stop :P)
@DzekTrek I put it on my binder where all my papers are kept XD
 
@DzekTrek I wasn't asking for a proof (again, no formal proofs in natural sciences), just the reasoning. I don't understand the idiom 'flipping in the sand' in this context.
 
@Hoxieboy I know, but I am in the mood to talk, I like to speak about that, and it's no secret at all. I want to see other peoples thinking about that topic.
 
fine by me then :)
 
2:04 AM
That excellent! @Hoxieboy Just keep learning, you will see it easn't that hard at all.
 
@DzekTrek Do you know how to do the reply thing? Because you're driving me nuts :P Click the bar to the left of someone's message, and select "reply to this message"
It makes it a lot easier to track conversations/trains of thought
 
The question is: is there a centrifugal force?
 
@LucDanton Without some force, world would fall apart, right? So it must be something that holds our universe, binds those 4 so far known forces etc.
@MooingDuck Yep. :)
 
@DzekTrek gravity for our world/universe/other large-scale things
 
Nah, it goes beyond that, I am sure. @MooingDuck With gravity it would be simple.
 
2:06 AM
@DzekTrek But why aren't the four usual interactions (or their reduced versions etc) enough?
What gaps in the model are you thinking of?
 
@DzekTrek gravity is quite simple at large scales.
 
@LucDanton black holes and the such, the things where gravity becomes compressed into matter, scary sh*t :)
 
Saying that things "fall" due to the curvature of spacetime around bodies of large mass does not mean that a curved thing exists. Saying things "fall" due to some force that pulls them together does not mean there is a force thing. That's totally missing the point. It means you can think of it like that and it makes sense, and you can use that reasoning to accurately (to varying degrees) describe the behaviour we observe, and to make accurate (to varying degrees) predictions.
 
@Hoxieboy Black holes don't have much gaps, do they?
 
@LucDanton not at all! (Except when they eat light, that's kinda freaky)
 
2:08 AM
The answer to "does it really exist?" is in the realm of philosophy.
 
building building building, rawhide
 
@DzekTrek your debate style makes me think you're religious. Saying nothing about you, I wonder why I think that? I'll have to contemplate....
@LucDanton spinning black holds do
 
@MooingDuck he just stated that he likes to talk about subjects like this and get people thinking about them :P
 
@MooingDuck Something about their moment, no?
 
@LucDanton yes, but I don't recall the details
 
2:09 AM
"holes".
And "momentum" (literal translation from French?).
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I like where you are going with this
LOL!
 
@LucDanton It wouldn't make a sense, even if there was a four of them. What keeps them gathered and what controls them? Maybe some force that obeys any law, some that started processing of the life( universe ), maybe something that looks just as tiny as atom in the body of some greater being. I don't know but that's my thinking of it.
 
@DzekTrek (energy) :s
 
@MooingDuck Well to be honest, I respect all religions. :)
 
@DzekTrek They're not gathered anywhere and there's no need for them to be controlled. They're conceptual, ideas. Not actual.
 
2:11 AM
@Hoxieboy :) Nice word.
@LucDanton Everything must have order, so does for these forces.
 
@DzekTrek they aren't "gathered" because they aren't "things", they are processes. They aren't controlled.
 
You're making up rules.
 
clang is at 80%
 
@DzekTrek Can you substantiate your premise?
 
lol @SethCarnegie still compiling
 
2:12 AM
81 %
 
@MooingDuck That is our thinking now, but we will see what future will bring. :)
 
@DzekTrek I'm not claiming there's only four, I'm simply claiming that forces are not objects.
 
Everything you know is wrong
82%
 
@LucDanton without order everything wouldn't make sense, right?
 
australians.
 
2:15 AM
@DzekTrek If you place two books a foot apart on the desk. We can discuss the "space between them". It makes sense to talk about that space, and do things with that space, but the space is an abstract concept, and not a physical thing that exists. Same with forces. They are ways that things interact, not things.
 
@SethCarnegie I deem you refered that to me, so I will reply "Yes, I know nothing but unlike some of you here I confess it. "
 
@DzekTrek no, I meant it for everyone
 
@DzekTrek there is order. The forces are observations of the ways that objects interact. They aren't made to do that, they aren't things.
 
@MooingDuck its called emergent behaviour
 
@DzekTrek If we start as a premise that things must be ordered (whatever that is), then we might discount things that are not, in fact, ordered. I would rather not have that as a premise. Is that premise really that important? Can you showcase that importance?
 
2:16 AM
@Hoxieboy vocab words +1
 
@MooingDuck You are right. We think field itself is abstract, but if it was abstract how come it has energy?
 
@LucDanton its like saying "WHAT NOW!?" only "now" was a few seconds ago
 
Admittedly though I'm assuming you're using a strong meaning for 'ordered'. Perhaps you could clarify that.
 
@Hoxieboy Energy is also a concept.
 
2:17 AM
@DzekTrek what, like a electromagnetic field?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Everything is a concept you know
 
Energy is an accounting scheme. It isn't that interesting to begin with.
 
H_7
exact
I am a concept
 
Wikipedia defines energy as "an indirectly observed quantity". I think that shows very clearly how abstract it is.
 
@LucDanton Everything is based on order, that is pattern that our energy, the one we are made from and everything else translates all around us and keeps in life all our space.
 
2:18 AM
@H7 our pictures are very similar XD
 
@DzekTrek I already asked you to expand on your premise 'everything is based on order'. You can't use it to clarify its own meaning :|
 
@MooingDuck Yes, even that has it's own purpose.
 
I think I'm not clear on what you mean by 'order' in that context.
 
@Hoxieboy In science? Yes.
 
2:20 AM
I love how seth is making clang history and we are arguing about physics :)
3
@ScottW XD
 
@ScottW Well, entropy is just a deviation of order. Metaphorically speaking ( This can be assumed to be abstract )
 
Metaphors? This is not literature.
 
@LucDanton But what our world would look like if it wasn't for something that keeps everything in place? Why is space, whole our universe black?
 
"Metaphorically"?
 
2:21 AM
@DzekTrek (this is what I mean XD)
 
@DzekTrek It's not black. It just happens that background radiation is not in the human-visible spectrum.
 
@DzekTrek due to an enormous amount of particles coming from meteors and space debris absorbing light
 
@Xeo Woah totally forgot I did an inifile parser as answer when I posted this:
Feb 13 at 11:26, by sehe
@Xeo: lunchbreak reduced to a 1-minute ini parsing tutorial for you:
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Well, I deem you know what I tried to say. Of course it's not black, if we speak about human-visible spectrum, even our perception isn't the one we see through our eyes, but that's just something else. What I tried to point is that some force must exist.
@Hoxieboy :D
 
2:24 AM
0
A: Cross-platform way to get line number of an INI file where given option was found

seheOnce again, took the opportunity to play with Boost Spirit. This time I got to play with line_pos_iterator. Here is the fruit of my labour: https://gist.github.com/1425972 When POSITIONINFO == 0 input is streaming output is raw strings (well, map<string, map<string, string> > for ...

 
@DzekTrek Because humans can't see microwave radiation, some force must exist?
 
@ScottW Yes, I agree with that. It's just our way of observing things.
 
I fail to follow that logic.
 
@DzekTrek That's an argument from ignorance, isn't it? My own (or anyone's) lack of imagination should not used to discount what could be.
 
@DzekTrek And, no, I don't know what you tried to say.
 
2:25 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes OK, now I don't understand why did you link to that? It has no logic whatsoever.
@ScottW You are right. :)
 
Going further down, I notice you previously tried to support your position by saying that 'everything must have order'. Now you're claiming that 'everything must have order because of how things are'. That seems oddly circular.
 
"FOAR SCIENCE" explodes in an admirable cacophony of light and radiation (I like science :3)
 
Keep at it, guys. He'll learn. He'll learn.
 
@LucDanton True, but based on ignorance of what that "black" matter is I find that some force is spread throughout entire universe.
 
@sehe hopefully we'll all learn
 
2:27 AM
@DzekTrek Is that relevant?
 
@ScottW :)
 
I wish you'd go back to addressing what's not adequate with thermodynamics. (Because, again, I think that thermodynamics could provide a lot of insights regarding what you're saying.)
 
@DzekTrek I think he's referring to the fact we can't see gravitrons, but I'm not sure.
 
@LucDanton It can be or it can't be, it's on scientist to find out, it's just my perception of the world.
 
@DzekTrek they found out like sixty years ago
 
2:29 AM
@DzekTrek Thermodynamics is a model. It doesn't have to be (or not be).
 
I should reference some scientists to this chat room
 
@MooingDuck But general relativity obviates the need for gravitons anyway.
 
Like gravity etc.
 
SUCCESS
CLANG NOW COMPILES
now for the linking
 
@RMartinhoFernandes still can't see it
 
2:30 AM
You seem a bit excited. :)
 
@SethCarnegie computer dies
 
@SethCarnegie see you tomorrow
 
lol
 
Oh, did Xeo tell you that it's the linking that kills? cya!
 
@Hoxieboy "file corrupt: link aborted"
 
2:30 AM
@MooingDuck XD
 
@MooingDuck Gravitons can be experienced, what I talk about here is that there must be some glue force that binds all so far known four force into one and make our world look like it is.
 
@DzekTrek no there doesn't
 
For someone that complains about the lack of formal proofs in natural sciences I think you have a hard time substantiating your positions with solid arguments.
 
@DzekTrek remember emergent behavior? there isn't a single force, just a bunch of forces fitting together like a puzzle due to the way they act
 
@DzekTrek How do you know gravitons can be experienced? They were not experienced yet.
 
2:32 AM
@LucDanton True, but I deem that thermodynamics isn't the motion of our world.
 
user406009
This is going to sound very stupid, but does anyone know how to quickly send a picture from a command line interface onto another computer.
 
user406009
I am sshed into a beaglebone and I want to get a picture back.
 
@EthanSteinberg its platform specific, what OS?
 
@EthanSteinberg The same way you'd send any other file?
 
@Hoxieboy Very true, and nice example! :)
 
user406009
2:33 AM
Linux
 
@DzekTrek Right, but then how do you describe combustion such that it goes the one way or not the other?
 
@MooingDuck I expressed my opinion, you expressed yours.
 
@LucDanton Emergent behaviour
 
I don't mind that you want to use a different model, but then I'd expect it to be at least as good as the current one.
 
user406009
@RMartinhoFernandes That would require setting up an ftp or ssh server on my computer. I guess I will have to do it anyways.
 
2:34 AM
@EthanSteinberg dropbox ;)
 
@EthanSteinberg scp?
 
Does anyone know what libraries are linked in a standard C++ program
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Well, I think you know what I was trying to say.
 
compiled by mingw
or: how can I see what libraries g++ from mingw passes to the linker
 
@DzekTrek NO, I don't.
 
user406009
2:35 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes Yeah, I just have to set up ssh on my home machine. :( Wanted to avoid that but oh well.
 
@ScottW nah, I do it all the time
 
@LucDanton Well, what creates combustion if not some pattern?
@RMartinhoFernandes Read more carefully then. ;)
 
@DzekTrek Which pattern in this case?
 
of the flow of the heat?
 
@ScottW I eat dead things, hence why I R alive
 
2:36 AM
@DzekTrek You're massively unclear. You distort the meaning of words to suit whatever you want to say. You write incredibly vague sentences, followed by non sequiturs that are incredibly vague. You act like a troll.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes you try to prove things that he doesnt really care about :)
 
@Hoxieboy I'm not trying to prove anything.
 
for instance, would a candle burn in the same way as it burns in the air or in the I don't know, water?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes neither is he :P
 
@Hoxieboy True my friend! :)
 
2:38 AM
Oh sh*t I kicked my dell optiplex, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
 
@DzekTrek Is that relevant? (This is not a rhetorical question.)
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Well, it's really hard for me to write 100 lines of comments to reply everyone, so please don't post something that we discussed moments ago.
 
@DzekTrek No, it doesn't burn the same way. What does that mean?
 
You discussed nothing. You only spouted.
 
@LucDanton It's not, but that's just an example.
 
2:40 AM
An example of what?
 
@LucDanton Well, you can find it whatever you like.
 
@SethCarnegie I believe it is as simple as g++ -v -v -v
 
@DzekTrek Then let's go back to how can you describe combustion better than thermodynamics can, in terms of the direction of the chemical reaction?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes " of the flow of the heat? :
 
LOL I WIN
I got clang to compile and link a hello world :)
on WINDOWS
 
2:41 AM
:D
 
@DzekTrek You can't have heat and no thermodynamics unless you describe heat.
 
@SethCarnegie otherwise -fdump-xxxx, -fdebug-xxxx or -fprint-something
 
Thanks Xeo, MooingDuck, joe from the irc, and everyone else who helped
and sehe
 
@SethCarnegie It linked that quickly?
 
@Mysticial almost instantly
 
2:42 AM
@DzekTrek You mean, the thing thermodynamics explain?
 
wtf...
 
@SethCarnegie congrats! Was that with iostreams?
 
@SethCarnegie I'll have to say "congratulations". That's quite a feat :)
 
@LucDanton But why do you keep trying to push me in the pot with thermodynamics? I never denied existence of anything, same goes for thermodynamics, why do you keep saying I need to describe you something new about it? I just stated that some force must exists and that's all.
 
Even on Windows, most of the shit I write takes forever to link...
 
2:44 AM
@DzekTrek I told you (twice already), I think that thermodynamics can bring a lot of insights. But for some reason you want to dismiss it?
 
@DzekTrek You never gave a substantiated reason that makes it so that this "force" must exist.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes thats the whole point
 
If you mean can instead of must that's a whole new sack of potatoes.
 
@sehe yes, #include <iostream> int main() { std::cout << "hi"; }
 
I never said anything about dismissing it, I just said it's not a subject of this topic. @LucDanton What is so cool with you about thermodynamics anyway? You constantly keep pushing it in the conversation? @LucDanton
 
2:44 AM
@SethCarnegie good!
 
clang outputs it as a.out though, I'll have to see what I can do to make it a.exe
this is my command line
 
You know, I have hoxie and dzek on ignore, but still see little else than those names spouting... :)
 
clang hello.cpp -I"C:\MinGW\lib\gcc\mingw32\4.6.1\include\c++" -I"C:\MinGW\lib\gcc\mingw32\4.6.1\include\c++\mingw32" -Lc:/mingw/bin/../lib/gcc/mingw32/4.6.1 -Lc:/mingw/bin/../lib/gcc -Lc:/mingw/bin/../lib/gcc/mingw32/4.6.1/../../../../mingw32/lib -Lc:/mingw/bin/../lib/gcc/mingw32/4.6.1/../../.. -L/mingw/lib -lstdc++ -lmingw32 -lgcc_s -lgcc -lmoldname -lmingwex -lmsvcrt -ladvapi32 -lshell32 -luser32 -lkernel32 -lmingw32 -lgcc_s -lgcc -lmoldname -lmingwex -lmsvcrt
4
 
@sehe FOOOL ignoring me :(
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Right, and probably I never will, it's just my assumption that I have and that's all.
 
2:46 AM
@SethCarnegie Oh, that's all?!
lol
 
@DzekTrek For instance you previously mentioned that life could be based on a tons of different things, than the carbon-based we have. But looking at it under the lens of thermodynamics, that's not so easy.
 
@ScottW Finally, someone who knows what I am talking about. :)
@LucDanton Maybe because we have based thermodynamics on our perception. Did you hear about being that had arsenic structure somewhere in the USA, so it isn't easy, but certianily not possible?
@ScottW It's just my speculation, if I had a model, do you think I would chat here with you. :P
 
@DzekTrek Did you also hear about the scientific community doubting the conclusion that the arsenic took part in the metabolism?
 
There's still the possibility of non-arsenic based life in an arsenic environment, isn't there?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes To be honest, I didn't but that doesn't mean somewhere over there exist the creatures that "run" on arsenic or whatever other element.
@LucDanton True. Very true.
 
2:49 AM
@DzekTrek Carbon-based life doesn't run on carbon.
 
@sehe it seems that I luckily stumbled across the right newsgroup archives and stuff so I knew what flags, etc. to configure/build it with so that helped
 
@LucDanton For example one planet that is completely out of silicon, could have just silicon based life. :)
 
@DzekTrek It also don't serve as a basis to say lifeforms based on arsenic are possible.
@LucDanton Highly unlikely that that would be organic life. Arsenic is poisonous.
 
Come on guys, we need more stars here
 
@RMartinhoFernandes But it's a logical thinking to take that in option too. :)
 
2:50 AM
A note to future windows clang compilers: don't try to compile clang from the svn, use llvm 3.0 and clang 3.0 source from the downloads page
 
Or supernovas
Blackholes
Whatever floats your thing
 
So that's why I stuck to thermodynamics. Tons of insights there.
 
@SethCarnegie thx for the hint
 
gladly starred :)
 
@sehe Better?
 
2:51 AM
Impressive. Can we still add manual stars to it while sticky?
 
It was thanks to you guys
 
@LucDanton I see your point, but what if the laws of thermodynamics don't apply elsewhere, 'cause we all know that all our knowledge is based on the human perception of the things.
 
Sadly, observation shows that the laws of thermodynamics apply everywhere.
 
Then that means you discard the premise that the Universe is 'consistent'. There's no point in having a model if we don't use that premise.
 
2:53 AM
Could you possibly imagine lets say element-hybrid that has different constitution of our known element?
 
Did you know dry ice farts when you cut it?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I don't think it's like that, but I can't disagree with you 'cause my guess is just a guess and nothing else. Behind you lies a hundreds of years of human science.
 
#2 is a harsh mistress.
 
@ScottW He is too old to be true. :P
@Hoxieboy :D :) We should make some experiments. :P
 
Who decided to name their library moldname
 
2:57 AM
@DzekTrek why? lol scientists have made dry ice fart with just about every material known to man (including diamond)
@SethCarnegie the fun-guy
 
@Hoxieboy I didn't know that. :)
@LucDanton It was nice talking to you, I will read thermodynamics just to have something in my pocket next time I come into talk with you. It was a very pleasant talk.
 

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