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7:00 PM
@Shog9 Sure, a lot of other trends can change. Such as "what should be deleted", or "how should I moderate". What isn't going to change is the trend that those who want power and influence become moderators, and those who merely want to do SO stuff don't
 
sbi
@MichaelMyers Who is this "we"? Is it "us vs. them" now?
The problem with self-nomination is that to lend power to those who would nominate themselves is rarely ever in the interest of the public.
 
@sbi If a mod deletes a post, normal users can't undelete it. Regardless of whether or not its locked. Locking can keep it from being deleted in the first place by normal users.
 
Every once in a while, you get someone who both wants influence and understands SO and wants the site to thrive. But you never get someone who's only interested in the latter, and you often get someone who's only interested in the former
 
I wonder if anybody tried this yet: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%2B%2B/CX
 
@sbi I hope not. But wouldn't you agree that it's easy to get 3k rep in a couple of weeks and still not really "get" what the site is about?
 
7:02 PM
@Nils even more language extensions?
 
@sbi I preferred the original system, where you needed three other users to vouch for you in order to get in. But... It was kinda hard to automate that, since folks got nominated who really didn't want in. Might still be worth revisiting.
 
@Nils I'll try it when beta will be released, cool thing IMO
 
@Shog9 Look at meta. Your fellow mods were pretty quick to show us how much the meta community wants deletions. So yes, there's a certain incentive/prestige involved with deletions. You hang around people who want stuff deleted, and they approve of you when you delete
 
sbi
@Shog9 Of course, that totally defeats my argument. Unfortunately, I am a pest and am quickly able to come up with a totally different one:
Honestly, don't you think that the fact that all those popular questions which got deleted recently needed to be deleted by a mod in order to prevent the SO users — whose interests the mods were to represent — to undelete it, is giving away that something is wrong with those deletions?
 
@Shog9 but does it need to be automated?
 
7:03 PM
"A WinRT object is reference counted and does thus not need to be manually deleted like ordinary C++ objects do. An object will be deleted when there are no remaining references that can be led to it."

It sounds as they were looking at iOS.
 
@sbi Hmm? Do I think that mod-deletions indicate that there's something wrong with a post being deleted?
@sbi Actually, the more likely reason for mod-deletion is that for popular questions it takes an insane number of votes by normal users to remove them
 
Anyone mind looking at some quick template code for me? Trying to make sure these ICEs are not my fault.
 
sbi
@MichaelMyers Of course, I agree. In fact, I would go much further in this:
It's possible to become a moderator despite not having a feeling of what the common grunts answering questions out there in the trenches want.
 
another serious question is just how much moderation is necessary. I realize that the site is far bigger today than a few years ago, and there are far more newcomers who don't necessarily understand how the site operates. But even so, moderators play a far more active role than they used to. They aren't so much moderators as curators. They decide how the site should be presented, which questions/answers should be deleted, rather than merely trying to keep the community self-governing
 
sbi
@Shog9 Wow, that was quick! (Just to make sure: Yes, I think this. If the is genuinely unwanted, it'#s quickly deleted by the crowd.)
 
7:05 PM
 
I think that's just a problem with the scaling algorithm being too high
 
What I'm missing, and I honestly have no clue how to fix it, is a realization that META IS NOT SO. That what people on Meta wants isn't necessarily the same as what people on SO wants. That moderators, and the Meta community in general has, as @sbi said, "a feeling of what the common grunts answering questions out there in the trenches want."
 
(And before you counter with, "but votes mean the community wants it", there's a huge, HUGE flaw in the current system - as the number of answers increases, the ability of a single voter to increase the number of delete votes required also increases)
(huge flaw)
 
and a clear, cold realization that "people hanging out on meta" are not the same as these "common grunts" in question
 
(flaw which seriously depresses me)
 
sbi
7:06 PM
@Shog9 So? What is your problem with that?
 
@sbi My problem with what?
 
@sbi joke questions everywhere
is my problem with it
 
@sbi That's fair to say.
 
it's bad enough that Meta is a popularity contest. SO is no longer one, and thank god for that
I honestly hated all those rep-whoring joke threads
and I hate the thought that they could be resurrected with a mere 5 votes
 
@jalf A lot of us did. IMHO, much of the current deletionist attitude owes its origins directly to the failure of the SE admins to quickly remove them.
I'm glad things changed. I just hope that we can come to a balance.
 
7:09 PM
"Garbage collection" was not invited by a marketing guy, otherwise it would probably be called "smart memory management".
 
@Shog9 maybe so. I suspect it's just as much psychology. You have a system which grants power to those who wants influence. And if you want influence, then "cleaning up the site" is a pretty good way of getting it
 
sbi
@Shog9 Do you really want me to explain how replying to specific message in the chat works?
 
You get noticed, you can say you made a difference. YOu might even set a precedence for others to follow
much more glamorous than "well, I kinda let the users govern themselves"
 
sigh
 
sbi
@Shog9 First good thing you said here today. :)
 
7:10 PM
I dunno. Janitorial work doesn't seem that glamorous to me.
 
8 mins ago, by sbi
@Shog9 Of course, that totally defeats my argument. Unfortunately, I am a pest and am quickly able to come up with a totally different one:
7 mins ago, by Shog9
@sbi Actually, the more likely reason for mod-deletion is that for popular questions it takes an insane number of votes by normal users to remove them
 
I think that you're attacking the wrong problem here
rather than wielding the mod banhammer on questions which can't be deleted by normal means, you need to just fix the problem that they can't be deleted by normal means
 
@MichaelMyers Tell that to any number of real-world dictators, who took great pride in how much they were able to streamline and quell dissent (by making those ugly "irregularities" disappear)
 
@DeadMG I agree
 
sbi
@Shog9 Yeah, exactly, you said that "it takes an insane number of votes by normal users to remove them." To which I replied by asking what your problem is with that.
 
7:12 PM
@jalf North SO is best SO!
 
lol
 
@sbi My problem is that it's broken - the number of votes increases faster than it should, and is too open to manipulation by voters on the worst questions (that is, it's actually easier to delete a bad question with one great answer than it is to delete a bad question with 30 bad answers).
But that's more of an aside. My original point is that your claim of moderators deleting (or locking) stuff to prevent undeletion isn't terribly probable.
 
sbi
@MichaelMyers That would imply that there's a South SO. Alas, there's not rival in sight. In that, SO is like google, when it came over the search engine market and swept everyone off the plate. It's a nice acknowledgment for your ideas when this happens to you, but it's not, actually, good for your customers.
@Shog9 That assumes that one agrees that it is good to delete those questions. For some I have seen deleted recently, I disagree.
 
@sbi What would this hypothetical rival do better? Allow lists, polls, etc.?
 
@MichaelMyers just provide competition, I think?
 
7:18 PM
@MichaelMyers They need to combine more than one format.
SO is like Java- it operates in X fashion and if you don't like it, then you can go perform an unsavoury act on your own
it needs to expand it's repertoire of tricks beyond Q&A
 
sbi
@MichaelMyers Absent from competition, how would I know what competition could come up with? Didn't I just say that, absent of competition, nobody can come up with what competition would come up with?
 
because there's clearly demand, and constructive use, for such functionality
 
I think one of those open-source clones did have a wiki section (not just tag wikis) embedded into it. Of course, a clone is worthless without people using it.
 
sbi
@MichaelMyers Yeah, and, equally of course, why would users switch to a clone when they can have the real thing?
 
For what it's worth, and since we're no long arguing over whether moderators are more likely to be meta or SO users, one thing I'd love to see on SO is some kind of integration with a more traditional wiki.
 
user784668
7:20 PM
@DeadMG SO is like Java - it sucks the big one?
 
A parallel set of canonical articles with commonly used information, which is easily referable from within an answer. If I want to post a link to the C++ books thread (which should be a wiki post, not a "question", then it sucks having to search for it by title, or having to rely on a browser bookmark
 
@sbi There's no "deletion system for bad questions only". There's one set of rules built into the system itself, based on votes and closed status, and it's up to the users to apply it appropriately.
 
I'd like to be able to simply do something like [wiki:cppbooks]
 
@Fanael If what it offers isn't a perfect match for you.
 
but that's just a pipe dream of mine. :)
 
user784668
7:21 PM
@DeadMG What the heck happened? I always thought the people in this room are the first to do some Java bashing.
 
and maybe that's as much OCD as the current delete-o-mania. Maybe I should just allow "questions" to be cluttered up with FAQ stuff like C++ book lists
 
@Fanael It's a pretty big bash to say that.
 
@jalf Propose it on Meta. You never know what might happen. (I personally thought this whole chat system had no chance of actually being built, but here we are.)
 
sbi
@jalf That was what the FAQ idea started out with. Then we got down and looked at what we have. So we decided to squeeze it into the Q&A format. It's a bad fit, of course, but it's available.
 
4
Q: Tag wikis need a size and functionality increase

DeadMGThe existing tag wikis are not enough. They can only store a very small volume of information, and given the complexity of the topics we're discussing here, that's just not enough. I propose to make them full wikis- that is, full community-edited sub-sites in their own right to host various refe...

 
7:22 PM
@jalf This has been discussed. It would be useful for a lot of things... My chief concern is that it would cause confusion (particularly on SO with its oceans of new users) - it can be hard enough to drill in the whole, "questions must be questions, answers must answer them" thing without throwing another type of post into the works.
 
@MichaelMyers I did once, but I don't think I expressed it very clearly, and it was probably too early too, not long after the tag wikis had been introduced, so it got taken off the table pretty quickly
 
Do you guys expect makefiles to be in the root directory or the source directory?
 
Does boost still not have a bigint class?
 
user784668
@DeadMG Well, whatever.
 
user784668
@MooingDuck It doesn't.
 
user784668
7:23 PM
@MooingDuck There's one in it's experimental SVN repo, though.
 
sbi
@Shog9 If there is no such system, then there is one that produces identical results. Whether you can actually call this "no such system" then, is, of course, philosophical.
 
@Shog9 true. I'd imagine it as a read-only supplement to the questions, basically. Not something you'd navigate on your own, but basically a collection of handy tools for answerers to refer to, so we have an easy way to answer commonality in questions without either voting to close, or repeating ourselves ad nauseam
so for new users, it just wouldn't be very visible
 
@sbi I'm saying, the system for deleting bad questions and the system for deleting good ones is the same system. It's up to y'all to differentiate between good and bad.
 
@Fanael C++ is hindered on codechef due to the fact that bigint functionality is required for some of the challenges, so I have a baby one I made, but it'd be nice to just "include <boost/bigint>" :/
 
sbi
@Shog9 No, it's not up to us. The moment one of you mods deleted something, I'm locked out.
 
7:24 PM
btw @sbi, @GraceNote says hi in her response to my ranty email from a few weeks ago :)
 
user784668
By the way, could someone provide an actual answer to a question of mine?
 
sbi
@jalf Huh?
 
@jalf Yeah, that was many weeks ago, wasn't it?
 
@sbi Which is why I'd prefer a system that didn't need to involve moderators for getting rid of the bad questions. Since that would also tend to keep them away from the good ones.
 
@Shog9 isn't it up to the person doing the deleting? I'm honestly scared by how often I come across this attitude, that "if people flag it, I have to do something. It's up to someone else to decide if I'm right"
@GraceNote yup. Had a lot of other things on my mind. :)
 
user784668
7:25 PM
 
You're still sticking around, though, I see ♪
 
user784668
One person tried to help me, but to no avail.
 
@jalf sounds exactly like what I meant by deep linking in: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/122197/…
 
@GraceNote well, I never said I'd leave. Just that I'm not very motivated to participate in the decision-making process, or "fight" for the betterment of SO
 
sbi
@Grace, since @jalf seems to fail to, could you please explain what his message was about?
 
7:26 PM
@jalf Yeah, it's unfortunate, but this goes back to the whole "SO is too damn big" thing again. Those oceans of new users. Mods without a quick trigger finger get swamped by flags.
 
@sbi remember a month or so ago, shortly after that comment-deleting debacle, I said I'd ask them for an account reset?
 
user784668
Oh, and I gotta go.
 
user784668
See you all.
 
sbi
@Fanael See, we're all discussing the site now, so no C++ questions get answered. It's what the mods wanted us to, though.
 
@sbi Technically that's a private email exchange that I can't share, but the part about saying hi to you was in regards to a blog post you once wrote about you probably "retiring" from active duty on Stack Overflow.
 
sbi
7:27 PM
@jalf Yeah, i do.
 
@Shog9 So? No one said that mods have to react to every flag. Perhaps they wouldn't get swamped if thy were capable of saying "that flag is invalid, I shall ignore it"
 
@Shog9 Hence, I suggest it's split into several sub-sites, like, I dunno, the five or ten most active tags.
 
@jalf Uh, flags don't age away - there is everything saying that they do have to react to every flag, technically
 
@jalf Most of the flags aren't invalid though.
 
user784668
@sbi It's hard not to see this, you know :P
 
7:28 PM
@sbi Grace answered my email, and said she was sorry that you were leaving, and to give you her regards
 
In fact, most of the stuff the moderators delete doesn't have anyone holding a candle for it, because it is indeed utter crap.
 
"Ignoring" a flag is just passing it on to the next mod who sees it.
 
@jalf That has been a sore subject since flag weight was introduced. It's become a little easier to decline flags now that they don't actively count "against" a user.
 
@GraceNote Yeah, but once again, my peeve is that a frightening number of moderators seem to feel that they must act on every flag. That once something is flagged, it must be deleted.
 
sbi
@GraceNote Ah, that one. (Well, in fact, I did.) I didn't know you knew @jalf to be close to me, that's why I simply failed to grasp his message up there.
 
7:29 PM
@sbi I just mentioned your blog post, I think :)
 
@sbi He mentioned you and a couple others, and it reminded me that it had been a while since we ran into each other
 
someone is wrong on the internet
 
And obviously, if you insist that for every flag, something must be done, then moderators are going to be swamped. But maybe that's where it goes wrong
 
@GraceNote is there a way to mark a flag as "handled-not an issue?"
 
sbi
@TonyTheLion And it's the one who coined this. Because it's totally wrong. Almost everyone is wrong on the Internet.
 
7:30 PM
@jalf There have been close to 8000 posts deleted by moderators in the past month alone. Maybe five or ten were worth debating over.
 
@jalf Well, as much as I'd like to point to one thing and say, "Thar!", the truth is this came from several different directions.
 
@MichaelMyers I never knew flags ever "counted against" a user. But sounds like that's the problem. I always see that kind of flags as a notification, nothing else. A "Hey, moderator, take a look at this and decide what, if anything, should be done". Not a demand for deletion, or something that *must be acted on
 
@jalf Let me rephrase, then - certainly not every flag is there an action that must be done, but there is always declining a flag. Moderators can't ignore flags, but they can (and certainly do) decide when a flag is wrong or that a post doesn't need to be deleted.
 
@sbi lol
 
@MooingDuck Yes - just mark it handled, do nothing.
 
7:31 PM
@jalf It really wasn't against; some people just took flag weight very, very seriously.
 
@GraceNote yeah, and that makes sense. I'm just saying that I've talked to more than one moderator who seemed to express the sentiment that "it was flagged, so it had to go", or that "it is up to you, not us, to decide if deleting it is the right course of action"
 
the problem is there are mods
 
Ridiculously seriously. Like way more seriously than y'all are taking that books question.
 
Which reduces the moderator to a robot auto-clicking 'delete' whenever he encounters a flag
and that is f'ing scary
 
yeah, I saw
 
7:32 PM
but seemingly common
 
@jalf When moderators delete, it should be because they also agree with the deletion in their interpretation of policy. Never out of blind following a flag.
 
@jalf Again, it's easy to get into this mindset because so much of what is flagged does have to go
 
@GraceNote should is the keyword there, yeah.
 
@GraceNote Jalf has gotten in fights with mods in the past when they simply deleted blindly because there was a flag.
 
@Shog9 but does it? Most of those can be deleted just fine by the community
 
sbi
7:33 PM
@GraceNote Well, I'm not all that outspoken anymore on meta or elsewhere (except here, that is; this is a nice biotope for misfits like @jalf and me), but I still see you posting on meta once in a while, and I still admire your way to discuss.
 
@sbi Thank you
 
sbi
@GraceNote Note the should.
 
@jalf Which is why we added more moderators, and pushed a lot of the flags onto the 10k users - the more that are handled by normal users, the less moderators need to worry about.
 
sbi
@jalf Damn.
 
@Shog9 Holy cow, there's 136 active flags right now.
 
7:34 PM
1 min ago, by jalf
@Shog9 but does it? Most of those can be deleted just fine by the community
hint
 
@Shog9 Well, I'm just pointing out that it still seems to be a significant problem. I don't know what goes on under the hood, or what moderators actually think, or how they actually act. I just know that the mindset that "once it has been flagged, something has to go" is frighteningly common
 
@DeadMG 180 in the diamond-mod queue
 
@jalf I can't find the Qs from that day when you got in a fight with CasperOne
 
@jalf @sbi Haha, yes, I picked my word choice intentionally there.
 
@jalf Which is something we're extremely concerned about. Seriously, tons of dev work, an election, and other things happening at break-neck pace over the past year to try and solve this. It was seriously, seriously bad just a few months ago.
 
7:35 PM
@MooingDuck well, don't ask me. For all I know, it might have gotten deleted soon after
 
(so cereal)
 
mm cereal
 
sbi
Ha! I flagged a comment by a diamond mod on meta (as offensive), and it got deleted! Smirk
 
@Shog9 well, again, my concern is with the mindset, rather than the site and the mechanisms implemented by it. Of course, they influence each others, and so the dev work in question might make a difference
 
I seem to have missed lunch time. Right back after this message and a word from your local sponsors.
 
7:36 PM
@sbi Which one?
 
sbi
@RobertHarvey Well, it's gone now, you know.
 
Yeah, but you have a fair idea where it was.
 
but I think it's pretty essential that a moderator acts and thinks like a human being, because that's all they're needed for. Automated processes can be implemented much cheaper and more effiicently
 
IMO
 
sbi
@RobertHarvey random's comment here.
 
7:38 PM
@jalf You can take someone - and I'm not speaking hypothetically here - who is very anti-deletion, and put them in front of a bottomless queue of flags screaming for deletion on crap posts... and pretty soon, they're deleting half the posts they see too.
 
we should mention it on a question's page when a question has been flagged, and ask people to agree or disagree there
 
@sbi I deleted that comment. And your follow-up comment.
 
@Shog9 maybe. I'm just observing a problem. I'm not saying what the solution is. :)
 
sbi
@jalf I was wondering why no messages are starred anymore, but when I tried to star this one I knew it's because we've all spent our stars for the day. :-/
4
 
lol
 
7:39 PM
I haven't
 
@jalf Yeah; it's not an easy problem. But we're not giving up either.
 
I don't think I've run up against that limit :)
 
me neither
 
sbi
@jalf Yeah, but that's because you got all of ours!
 
@sbi do you get more stars to spend when people star you?
 
sbi
7:39 PM
@RobertHarvey Ah, thanks. I wonder whether someone would actually do this. IMO it was offensive and non-constructive.
 
I've never really bothered looking into all those mechanics
 
sbi
@jalf No, but it made a fun pun.
 
@jalf Not mechanically, no, but the sentiment was cute
 
@sbi ooh, that rhymes
 
sbi
@jalf Yeah, I bend it that way to do so.
@GraceNote "Not mechanically?" Does that mean that, manually, mods can hand out new shiny stars? Looks very cute
 
7:41 PM
anyway, nice to have this little talk. It's amazing how much easier it is to discuss calmly when you're not suddenly assaulted by a half-dozen angry moderators
 
lol
have to admit
 
not to call out any individuals, but it was pretty hard not to feel under siege before
 
I have never, ever, seen more than one or two moderators in the channel at once
and we must have played host to about six or more so far today
 
@sbi I more meant "It doesn't work mechanically, as opposed to the context of the pun in intention". Moderators cannot give stars out, but I also don't know that we have a limit or not.
 
sbi
@jalf Yeah. (I'd star this, but, you know, @Grace ran screaming when the gorilla tried to look cute.)
 
7:42 PM
@jalf Did that actually occur? I highly doubt that. If it did occur, call me not surprised, given how dismissive everyone in here was to the SO moderators.
 
@RobertHarvey Not sure what you mean
 
@RobertHarvey We did get swamped by moderators earlier. I mean, like, every other message, if not more, was from a mod.
 
I was afraid that there was a stint
 
sbi
@GraceNote Of course, you would have to deny this power now, otherwise we'd be reduced to cute looking begging monkeys. :)
 
lol
 
7:44 PM
Heh
 
or puppies! woof woof
 
sbi
@DeadMG Two out of three, I bet.
 
@DeadMG That was probably my fault. I asked in the Teacher's Lounge where the C++ room was (I am chat-challenged), so that I could bring the meta question to your attention. I didn't expect everyone else to follow me in here.
 
Obviously it's all very subjective, but as I saw it, we went from normal humdrum discussion about the C++ book list question, to suddenly being outnumbered by moderators, few of whom were at all inclined to see our point of view, or even willing to admit that the 20 Meta users who voted on the Meta question might not be representative of the SO community as a whole
 
@sbi If you're really nice, I'll give you a bunch of new stars at 12:01 AM.
 
7:44 PM
@DeadMG Eh, most of that was @casperOne. You'll have to forgive him - he's still new to moderating, we haven't quite managed to indoctrinate him into The MSO Way yet, so sometimes he still argues like a SO-user.
 
@RobertHarvey Heh. I don't mind. It was hard to have a discussion for a while, but things seemed to have calmed down.
 
sbi
@DeadMG You'd be a cute looking puppy if only you wouldn't open your mouth and try to speak like a grown up.
 
@sbi hehe
 
@Shog9 Couldn't you indoctrinate him into the SO way? I'm not particularly sympathetic of Meta, as you might have gathered
 
@jalf What? But then how would we maintain our cabal of like-minded meta-heads?!
 
7:46 PM
In a nutshell, SO is for people who care about answering questions and helping others. Meta is for people who want to make their mark and get influence. Guess which group I want to moderate
 
sbi
@MichaelMyers You know, the way I am wired, this is almost a challenge to be such an asshole that you will try to revoke those stars I'll get anyway.
 
lol
I'm not sure moderators have the power to remove your ability to star things?
 
@jalf I... like answering questions and helping others...
 
And no, as harsh as it may sound, I don't think we have to forgive him. It's up to you guys to give mod privileges to someone, and if you do it before that person is ready, then you, or someone higher up the food chain, fucked up
 
@jalf What's funny about that is, the folks with the most experience on MSO tend to be those who've spent a lot of time... helping others learn to use SO.
 
7:47 PM
(Haha, but I do understand what you mean)
 
@DeadMG Nope, not a bit. And glad of it too.
 
It's not up to the community to "forgive" a bad moderator
 
sbi
@DeadMG But I could behave badly enough that he would "try to revoke"!
 
@jalf That's a bit cynical, isn't it? Like all feedback systems, 95% of what gets proposed or discussed is never implemented anyway. It's the remaining golden 5% that drives the site forward.
 
and when that is said, I want to make it clear that I don't have an issue with him. I can move on, I just don't think it's fair to ask the community to forgive
 
7:48 PM
@jalf He was elected. Are you pushing for employees to vet all candidates before seating them?
 
@RobertHarvey No, it's very cynical. ;)
 
@jalf Erm... not to step out of bounds here, but we only give mod powers based on what everyone else votes in this scenario.
 
@MichaelMyers Absolutely, yes
@GraceNote Well, that's your first mistake then. ;)
 
lol
 
Which basically destroys the whole point of having an election, then.
 
sbi
7:48 PM
@GraceNote He has a very peculiar opinion on it, which he elaborately explained earlier.
 
@jalf ...oh, trust and believe, there are a lot of us who would do things differently if we dared interfere like that. OTOH, if it came out that we were doing that, the outrage would be deafening.
 
the elections are very interesting, and a good opportunity to weed out a lot of obviously insane candidates
 
@sbi Do you have a handy link (or conversation bookmark, if feasible)?
 
but there needs to be a sanity check
 
sbi
@MichaelMyers Why? isn't an election for giving the grunts the feeling that they have some influence without actually letting them have any?
 
7:49 PM
for the exact same reason that moderators can delete questions "extra hard", so ordinary users can't vote to undelete
The community doesn't always know best
especially not when it's a completely different community
 
We do have a sanity check, actually.
 
@sbi Hey now, I'm not a cynic. Yet.
 
The Meta community certainly doesn't know best about SO moderation ;)
 
sbi
@GraceNote There must have been several thousand messages here in the last two hours. That'#s a lot even for this room. All I can say is that it's somewhere up there.
 
@sbi So, it's intermixed with everything of recent, then. Hooboy
 
7:50 PM
@sbi We'll kick out candidates who fail to meet publicly-posted requirements, and we'll kick out folks who are suspended, but we don't secretly remove nominations that we simply don't like
 
@GraceNote well, when bad moderator actions slip through, that sanity check failed. ANd then that is what we have to forgive, rather than the specific moderator's actions
 
@GraceNote which are you after?
 
@Shog9 jalf's previously noted opinion on election process
 
sbi
@MichaelMyers Oh you're simply too young then. Just you wait. Cynicism is a function of age.
 
@sbi And C++, I suspect. ;)
 
7:51 PM
@GraceNote Can I get a hint? I'm not sure which opinion we're referring to. ;)
 
@jalf Well, you don't actually have to forgive anyone. I was mostly being rhetorical.
 
but I'll gladly repeat it
 
3 mins ago, by sbi
@GraceNote He has a very peculiar opinion on it, which he elaborately explained earlier.
 
@Shog9 but you brought up a serious issue. What should be done when "bad" moderators slip through? And what is to be done to prevent "new" moderators from wreaking havoc?
If it is only a matter of votes and popularity, then there's no mechanism to ensure that moderators know what they're supposed to do before they're given their mod powers
 
@jalf Bring it up, technically, is the best line of action.
 
sbi
7:53 PM
@MichaelMyers No, that's wrong. C++ makes for a lot of patience, and a thick skin. Cynicism only is invoked in C++ programmers when they see pattern-plagued Java code.
 
@jalf Who are these bad moderators that you speak of? I've heard various legendary tales of mayhem, but never seen it actually happen.
 
sbi
@Shog9 Of course, you could never admit to the grunts. :)
 
@GraceNote I was looking for something more pro-active. It's so hard to have a reasoned debate after a young and naive moderator has just deleted 20 relevant and informative on-topic comments because they got flagged. ;)
 
Oh, that mayhem.
 
@jalf We've removed moderators in the past. And new moderators spend a fair bit of time under public and private scrutiny. And you're always welcome to (politely, please) raise issues you encounter with a moderator's actions - either on Meta or privately to team@ - we'll make sure they get addressed.
 
7:54 PM
@jalf ...oh yeah, that was you, wasn't it?
 
Bjarne Stroustrup is such a funny guy
 
@sbi On the other hand, you don't expect things to magically turn out right if you don't do it yourself.
 
@sbi No, but see that's the thing - it'd get out anyway.
 
@Shog9 but what instructions/guidance/education are you given before being given the mod powers? And could that side of the equation be improved?
 
sbi
@bamboon Hush. This is a meta discussion room tonight. Don't you dare to interrupt with mere C++ topics!
 
7:55 PM
@GraceNote well, kind of. It was lots of people. But yes, I was the one who objected to the moderators handling of criticism against his actions
other people objected to his actions in the first place, and so on
 
@jalf As far as proactivity, outside of out-right malignance (I think that's not spelled right...) or abuse, we don't really have a means or stance with which to bar a user from winning in the elections if they qualify to run. In the same fashion that we don't get to simply choose moderators of our own choosing, we can't actually deny moderators of our own choosing.
 
@GraceNote I don't see why not. Don't you write the rules?
 
@sbi haha yeah, I forgot that someone is wrong on the internet
 
sbi
@MichaelMyers Contrary to popular believe, C++ will make things (like freeing memory) happen automagically, when you do things right.
 
@jalf Could it be improved? Always. As for what there is now... There's a ton of discussion as to how moderators should conduct themselves on Meta of course, several blog posts this one being key, several chat rooms dedicated to the subject, a mod-specific blog, and most recently dedicated orientation sessions with experienced moderators.
 
sbi
7:57 PM
27 mins ago, by sbi
@TonyTheLion And it's the one who coined this. Because it's totally wrong. Almost everyone is wrong on the Internet.
 
@jalf What would the stance be? "We don't like this candidate."? That wouldn't fly through at all.
 
@GraceNote but you could do it. :)
 
you wouldn't reject a voted-for candidate without a good reason
all you'd have to do is show the reason
 
then it's just a matter of finding the right stance, not of whether it is possible to change the rules at all ;)
 
the soviet regime was heavily into changing history. as an example, yesterday or perhaps day before, a comment of mine explaining why I downvoted, was deleted by some moderator. perhaps he/she was dumb, or perhaps with malice, idk. the author of the answer i downvoted, agreed that there was no reason to delete the downvote comment. the mod who did that deleted useful information, changed history, made me look as if i'm doing the opposite of what i tell others to do, it's wanton destruction.
 
7:59 PM
anyway, you don't have to bypass would-be moderators you don't like, but you could, for example, provide more guidance to newly elected mods before they're given their powers. Or perhaps assign them a mentor who reviews their actions for the first few weeks, and provides feedback
 
@AlfPSteinbach Link, or it didn't happen.
 
I'm also looking at improving guidance about what the moderators' duties actually are in addition to the general philosophy described in the Theory of Moderation, so that people who are considering becoming moderators have a better idea of what they're getting into and those who aren't moderators have a clearer picture of a mod's typical activities. Minimize misconceptions and all that.
 
@jalf We have, in fact, instituted a new educational system and have had a subsequently "After a while" review session for the most recent moderator set.
 

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