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2:00 PM
@BobSinclar I am doing the opposite. One of my freelance clients demanded that I use Rails because it is "cool"
 
eeek
so i have one warning
 
I told him Ruby was like the hipster barista of web languages, and they said do it anyways D:
 
it all worked great now thanks guys
 
For the most part though I'm "using Rails" by putting 70% of things in the public folder and using javascript widgets...
 
Those hipsters do make good coffee.
Not a bad one yet.
 
2:02 PM
yeah i use view less and less these days
 
DellSonic Wall - you can no update the config after the license expires.. Anyone have exp with that?
 
just generate restful apis and consume everything with your favorite JS framework
 
I only use views when I can utilize some partials
 
Rails is a framework for ruby? Never used it.
 
you can theoretically use mustache too right
 
2:03 PM
Yeah, it is kinda the inspiration for MVC
 
theres other ways to do partials staying in javascript
 
of ASP.NET, not the pattern of course
@BobSinclar yeah, but it isn't as easy as <% render 'stuff' %>
 
@tmutton do you just use ruby as a scripting language that may be why? or did you use sinatra
your right
i always disliked people who used views
and then also used things like mustache
 
I have never used ruby
 
and your writing code to generate code like 3 different ways
to get things to the client
and at that point you start to empathize with the idea of nodejs
 
2:05 PM
I liked Ruby as a scripting language, but in Rails it feels like a weird mix of VB and PHP
 
I appreciate these scripting languages but how do they fair against say .net in an enterprise environment? I like .net because it's quick and you get some awesome tools in VS, deployment features and debugging is good.
One of my pains is Windows deployments. Linux is so much easier.
Though I think things will improve.
That's just the MS optimist in me.
 
Things are improving quite nicely
but yeah - still a couple of years away from the ideal
vNext will bring in a lot of great tooling
 
DSC looks good? Step in the right direction?
 
Can't comment on DSC having never used it. My sysadmin experience is limited.
 
I tried DSC a few weeks ago
 
2:13 PM
Some guy was showing off MVC 6 at the conference last week.
 
I don't feel like DSC is mature
 
From what I understand, DSC uses standards?
 
too many experimental features
 
It implements a set of standards
 
googles
Hmm. Like Puppet or Chef, but in Powershell?
 
2:15 PM
I think so
I sat through a conference talk on it with a guy from JustEat only a few days ago - forgotten what he said!
 
yeah kind of
 
"Because DSC is part of the Windows Management Framework (which includes Windows PowerShell 4.0), it means that it is operating system independent, and it runs on any computer that is able to run Windows PowerShell4.0. DSC ships with the following resource providers:"
 
@tmutton did he tell you JustEat?
 
Yeah
 
@tmutton theres pros and cons of rails in a enterprise env. i worked at a place that had some giant old rails apps (version 3.0) and 40,000 lines of code which is huge for rails. running along side newer rails apps version 4+
whats a huge pain is upgrading the rails versions
your tests break
theres dependencies etc
but other than that its not much different than .net
 
2:18 PM
Is it verbose in its feedback?
 
yeah but you need to be familiar with your unix distro
tail logs grep for key phrases know where to look
 
That's not a bad thing.
 
@tmutton if it's part of Windows Management Framework, how can it possibly be OS independent? The clue is in the name
 
you dont have visual studio to consolidate things and rubymine the closest thing to VS is still not perfect or as perfect as visual studio if that can even be said
 
2:20 PM
@TomW Possibly within a container?
 
@BobSinclar I can tell migrating Rails versions would suck, it is hard enough finding code snippets because most of them are for v2 or 3...
@BobSinclar RubyMine is pretty awesome though...
 
also the scaffolding sucks compared to visual studio
yeah i .net because of how many examples there are
hell it seems like anything i want to do scott hanselman already has a blog post about it
 
He does
 
I suppose similar to how you can run .net on linux
 
except for EF7 migrations, I hate them almost as much as PHP D:
 
2:21 PM
why not a fan?
 
In practice, migrations are not widely used yet
 
It is just because I am using the new shared class library feature and I have to jump through hoops and ladders to migrate the db every time
 
It's often easier to hand code the scripts for promote/demote than to use migrations since most database schemas are wonky
 
In EF7 you need to use migrations to create your initial database
 
yeah its the same way in rails
database migrations were always a chore
not always
 
2:24 PM
in ef, just turn on automigrate until your database is stable
 
but way less reliable using active record than if you executed a script to do it in mySQL or PostGres or whatever you were using
 
@CharlieBrown they took that out in EF7 :(
it might come back, but for now it is gone
 
I believe they are still discussing it, they removed it b/c they felt it made things worse for some developers
 
Yeah, right now EF7 is a black box because they got swamped with Roslyn stuff. It won't even RTM the same time the rest of asp.net 5 does.
 
my concern in ef7 is they are over complicating it to appease edge cases
 
2:33 PM
@Greg working bro!
 
hi guys...anybody here uses VS2012?
 
I think they are still maintaining ef6 for that reason though, ef7 is going to be built around cloud stuff and alternative stores like sql lite and nosql.
 
@FrancescoDS of course
 
if I am starting a webapi today
should i use .net45 or 452
 
@TomW I think that DSC translates to a protocol that is used on linux boxes... can't remember the name
"Open Management Infrastructure" (OMI)
 
2:38 PM
I have a problem with InstallShield...it does not create the Setup Project...
 
452 or 46 are both stable
 
@BobSinclar it makes little/no difference. Any relevant libraries will support either version.
 
well i made the mistake of using 4.5 for an old webapi
 
so, yes, DSC works on non-windows boxes
 
2:40 PM
can i just bring it up to 4.5.2 by switching it in the properties
or will a bunch of stuff break?
 
Try it and see :)
 
and to be clear 4.6 is not .net 5 right
or is it?
.net 5 is still in preview and will look like 5.0 im assuming
 
I'm not aware of any .NET framework preview with major version 5
 
.net framework <> ASP.NET
 
awesome tmutton stackoverflow.com/questions/3103360/… explains it all so clearly
 
2:47 PM
np
 
@SteveG You do that, whoa. I would of never guessed!
 
@Greg would have*
 
@Squiggle I have a problem with InstallShield...it does not create the Setup Project...
is there any official forum where to ask about this issue?
 
3:04 PM
@FrancescoDS I don't know anywhere good specifically. On a side note, try using WIX.
 
what is WIX?
 
it allows me to create setup projects for my vs projects?
 
Yes
It is better than install shield imo
 
3:33 PM
Well that's weird.
 
good morning
 
@Sippy Sigh-
 
@TomW You think that's weird? Have you tried quantum physics?
 
anybody planning to upgrade to win10 right after release?
 
@tweray I already use insider preview on my main machine
the last few builds have been pretty stable so I think I'll upgrade my work pc right on the 29th too.
 
3:42 PM
lol, that's pretty brave. i only played around on VM
 
back in like february I had a bunch of sound and network card issues
but since then I've been problem free
 
have you ever try to install that into a early win8 time ultrabook?
 
no, I have it on my Surface Pro 2 at work and my home pc that I built custom back in 2007
 
i'm mainly concerning about the compatibility on the special hardwares like keyboard and camera, and those shortcut buttons built on device
 
win 8.1 drivers seem to all work
the g keys and media keys on my logitech all work
 
3:46 PM
well, win 8.1 broke my sony laptop's lock auto flip button, i had to upgrade bios after like 2 month to fix it
to begin with, i shouldn't have trusted sony
 
yeah, Sony drivers are rough
 
I am using windows 7 should I upgrade it to windows 10?
 
@Harish I would, I went from 7 to 8 just because of how much faster it was
 
@CuddleBunny all the RIGHT reasons
 
@Harish at least upgrade within the year to get your free copy
 
3:49 PM
will I have to install all software again?
 
@juanvan I also like the start screen too, the only thing I didn't like is how many mouse clicks it took pre-8.1 to shut the thing down.
 
@KendallFrey just a little, yeah. And it's weird in that gravity is thought to be predictable, even when having to invoke general relativity to get the right answer
 
@Harish if you just update it should keep everything except it will reinstall the drivers
 
yeah, win10 is much more like win7 in desktop mode but much much faster, i won't concern too much upgrading desktop to win10, but i may hold on non-surface ultrabooks, and give manufactures some extra time to fix compatibility
 
@TomW Maybe it's gravity, maybe it's not
 
3:51 PM
honestly though, I think 8 and 7 are identical enough as well. Just square buttons instead of wide buttons... I think the biggest mistake was the auto hiding start button
 
@CuddleBunny but if I will upgrade it to my free version will my software be there or I will have to install them again?
 
@Harish it should be just like when Windows 8 came out, the updater will give you the option to keep all your software and just update or reformat from scratch.
It will remove windows media center, if you use that though.
 
i hope they do that, the RTM doesn't allow me to do so, or maybe they do now?
@ton.yeung you still get a chance for a mac, so you won't get discriminated by the fanbois anymore :)
 
I think any laptops that came with windows 8 would be okay driver wise to update but I would hesitate for those that came with windows 7. Though if you already updated them to 8 and they still work I think it will be fine.
 
is MSI laptop good? i heard about them a lot, but never really use one
 
3:56 PM
@ton.yeung you can still buy windows 7 licenses
but win7 drivers might not exist for newer hardware
 
user862319
So can anyone explain to me how the threading model works on owin self-host web api? Is it one thread per request (encouraging an async controller model similar to node), or does it internally handle these shenanigans?
 
user862319
I am seriously considering dropping nodejs like its hot and sticking with .net for this web api project
 
but again, I think 8.1 and 10 are excellent operating systems so there aren't many good reasons to use 7 anymore
@Bob nodejs is still faster in a lot of use cases, but .net is much easier to develop with imo.
@ton.yeung 8 had some problems, but 8.1 addressed them all
10 turns the problems into solutions and it is fantastic
 
user862319
@ton.yeung @CuddleBunny So then the question is what type of tasks are we talking about? I ideally would want to handle several thousand concurrent connections on each (decently-sized) ec2 instance.
 
@Bob I've not done anything on that scale, but webapi stuff is pretty snappy
 
4:00 PM
@CuddleBunny i would argue that, nodejs FEELS faster because it's async nature, if you structure similar async structure in .net, .net still wins. nodejs is outstanding because is simplicity on the async structure
 
@tweray even the asp.net team admits it is slow compared to competitors
node.js has some pretty impressive benchmarks
 
user862319
@ton.yeung @CuddleBunny So are we talking about declaring the actual controller methods as async? I cant find a single shred of documentation on this.
 
user862319
Right now I just have them as normal methods and it is fast as hell
 
@Bob well, do you mean several thousand concurrent, or several thousand rpm? 1000 concurrent request usually means 1 million + rpm, that's quite some huge scale
 
just be be clear, nodejs is not async
 
user862319
4:03 PM
I feel like there is a pattern for async controller methods, because my authentication middleware is implemented using async
 
@Bob if they aren't slow operations it isn't always worth async
 
user862319
@ton.yeung I planned on using redis to cache on certain controllers that would otherwise invoke longer-running database queries.
 
@CharlieBrown well, i'm not sure what will be the best word to explain its request handling nature then...
 
@tweray single threaded, non blocking
 
user862319
@ton.yeung That is a fucking great idea. I didn't think about making the middleware handle the caching.
 
user862319
4:07 PM
I could just use url+http method as the cache key
 
user862319
90%+ of the traffic is going to be GET requests for slowly-changing content
 
@CharlieBrown it's asynchronous, but single-threaded.
The first sentence of the 'about' page on nodejs.org says as much.
 
@CuddleBunny but for nodejs you have to take services' serialization and deserialization into account, it's more like a comparison between IIS and nodejs, not asp.net vs nodejs
and for nodejs vs IIS, yes nodejs is faster
 
user862319
@tweray I feel like this is a more apt comparison.
 
@TomW I will concede that you are correct
 
4:09 PM
@tweray even running asp.net 5 outside of iis is slow in comparison... but neither is as fast as scala.
 
user862319
Nodejs vs IIS = nodejs wins every time. It's the javascript vs CLR that makes me really want to stick with C#.
 
user862319
I figure with self-host I take IIS out of the equation and everything gets faster.
 
user862319
Also fucking entity framework. Trying to use mongoose ODM and whatever other stupid shit is out there is a complete waste of time by comparison.
 
Up until the point you need similar functionality that IIS offers out of the box, then nodejs becomes much more complex
 
@CharlieBrown the terminology is kind of nebulous. I didn't discount the possibility that the author of that website used the term incorrectly
 
user862319
4:11 PM
Mongo is fucking satan.
 
A nodeJs project with all the neccessary gears to compare to IIS uses hundreds of 3rd party libs to work. Applications become very difficult to maintain when the number of dependencies increase.
 
user862319
@ton.yeung The use cases for it are so narrow and it is so much more difficult to build a conceptual E/R model of your system without a structured language.
 
Its even worse when half of those dependencies are maintained by a couple script kiddies
 
user862319
My thinking is that I will use MySQL+EF and if I need to optimize beyond SQL, i can start pulling stuff into Mongo
 
@CharlieBrown for sure, I'd rather write c# any day even if it was half as fast as it is...
 
4:13 PM
@CuddleBunny yeah, but question is, are you going to write all your business logic, DAL in javascript? nodejs is outstanding in the microservice or SOA structure, and unders that structure, you have to also take service cost into account. on the other hand, c# is much better on all in one thanks to CLR
 
@Bob EF doesn't work with Mongo yet though
 
user862319
@CuddleBunny Nor should it ever.
 
EF does work with Mongo
I've done 2 projects with it already
 
@CharlieBrown oh, cool I though only Brightstar worked with EF at this point
 
The nice thing about Mongo with .net is it will sync itself between clusters much better than sQL merge replication
 
4:14 PM
@tweray I wouldn't, but you totally could.
 
As long as you don't mind if it's "eventually consistent" it works quite nicely in the right application
 
user862319
MySQL has the fabric thing now
 
user862319
which is kinda cool.
 
user862319
I honestly don't really care what the persistence layer is at this point as long as I can write a class, add it to my context and just watch it work without being a huge pain in the ass.
 
you could <> you will like it
javascript is still not a primary option when doing that. I'm not discounting the value of nodejs, what i mean is, we cannot just simply compare the language speed, we need to take structural cost onto the table while consider which guy is more efficient
 
4:17 PM
@tweray I know, just playing devils advocate. There is no such thing as "better"
 
user862319
I think the best argument against nodejs is that you have to write javascript/typescript for it.
 
@CuddleBunny sure there is. C# is "better" than Java.
:D
 
@TomW I can agree with that one :)
 
@BobSinclar well said, that is the power of a good ORM. Just write code, dont worry about persistence
 
user862319
I don't know about you guys, but I can crank out C# code about 10x faster with visual studio than any javascript framework+editor.
 
4:18 PM
~ lunch time.
 
yeah, they all mostly are anyway. even a million dollar boat has leaks
I've used it since inception, and its had its quirks. Earlier versions relied to heavily on designers.
The earlier versions werent as flexible, so if you tried to apply them to something a bit outside the box, it became difficult or impossible.
Some of it of course, was some people were terrible at database design, so they got in their own way
It's number 1 advantage was and will always be reducing complexity and code debt.
 
4:37 PM
I'm a big fan of EF.
I like the direction in which it is evolving.
 
My only qualm with Entity Framework, is overhead.
 
it's a fair compromise for most applications
 
The overhead of creating your own will always be 10x that of EF
 
@CharlieBrown That is true, as Entity Framework has an abundance of features that the lighter weight mappers don't have.
 
The cost to maintain, code debt and complexity are far too high to build your own solution. It is cost ineffective to do so for all but maybe 1% of software companies
 
user862319
4:43 PM
EF is magic. I figured out how to get multi-tenant contexts (in a single db) to independently auto migrate and experienced true existential bliss.
 
user862319
now we can send new binaries to our customers and not worry about running database scripts.
 
I can't stand EF
really messes with the support abilities
and as far as overhead of creating your own stuff, template it out
create some snippets
The code that is then created becomes, in our experience, 10x more transparent and easy to track, and is a hell of a lot less bloated.
I agree that it could be said it's a programmer's job to be lazy, but I think EF tips the scales where the automation and learning curve out weigh the benefits.
 
5:01 PM
I've experienced no problems supporting or maintaining EF
 
Neither have I
I've also never died from jumping out of a window.
 
I'd like to point out that we may have very different meanings of maintaining. But for me, that does include touching code that may be poorly documented, created by someone who no longer works there, may have modified the EF code directly, includes changes to the underlying data structure/stored procs, and/or requires stepping through the code.
 
@BrandenBoucher I agree completely...
...which is exactly why using existing software (like EF) is better than rolling your own.
 
woooooooooooooooo
 
@SteveG ARE YOU LIST-EH-NING, OH WOOOOO-OOOO-OOOO-OO-OO-OOOOOOO
 
5:10 PM
eh
 
Guys i am making an Telegram Bot for someone , he want some function like the bot Send to Group whatever he tell him to send and such which is easy and i finished already . but he also want whenever his Site's Rss is updated ! the bot send to Group the new Rss , is there some good Rss Library or package that i can use for easier work ? :D
 
!!youtube jimmy eat world sweetness
 
5:37 PM
If EL works for you and you don't have issues with supporting it, go for it. I will never recommend it to anyone, personally. However, saying that because it already exists and works makes it better than rolling your own is short sited. Just because using existing code works in one scenario, does not mean it works in all scenarios. And I have found that EF is a glaring example as to why it needs to be judged on a case-by-case basis.
In our case, it's caused more headaches than it's helped alleviate; more time wasted on tracking down a bug because EF was used (not that EF caused the bug), than just being able to step through the light weight code we rolled ourselves.
It really only shows it's merit, IMHO, when you try to recreate your data hierarchy in classes.
 
In my years consulting, I have found the major cause of pain with EF is always lack of understanding in how it works and how to implement it.
 
^
When used properly, EF can massively decrease the time required to write applications, with little to no downside.
 
In an large enterprise application, maintaining the hundreds of thousands of lines of code it would require to roll your own instead of EF would be a substantial burden on an organization.
NIH is a major problem in our industry
 
Yup.
Use what's standard and gets the job done. If that's not EF for you, that's fine. But trying to roll your own is going to cause many headaches down the road.
Not to mention the time involved to do so.
 
There are many applications where EF does not make sense. But if your developing a .net application using a SQL relational data store, you are just making your job more difficult not using EF (or NHibernate or another ORM)
 
5:43 PM
I respectfully disagree
 
I don't think he's saying EF is always a good idea. I think he's saying if you need an ORM, you should use one that people already built
 
Ya, that part I don't totally disagree with.
The problem then becomes knowing when you should be using an ORM
 
Our job as developers is to solve the (business) problem. Solving ORM is not a business problem. Time spent doing so is time not spent solving the business problem.
 
I feel like a lot of people believe you should always use one
 
I only advocate that you should use one if it fits the problem
 
5:47 PM
@CharlieBrown The way we work as developers is to break down large complex problems into simpler, smaller problems. If one of the subproblems of a business problem has a solution in the form of an ORM, use it.
 
@KendallFrey Agreed
 
0
Q: How can I add custom validation attribute to check for duplicates among my model properties?

Kala JI want to add a custom validation attribute to my model to check if any of the answers contain duplicates. That is, if the user types in the same answer for any of the fields, I want to display an error when they type in a duplicate answer. Here's my model: public class SecurityQuestions ...

 
6:03 PM
So in your day to day hard core sql work, what sql optimiztion tools you guys use? Or do you guys use any? No text book BS please.
Do you guys use estimated and actual execution plans?
Or what?
 
@Obviously I've....looked at them. And gone '...what'.
 
I remember once an interviewer was expecting me to list/explain all the statistics in the execution plan
 
I've used execution plans. But at that point you're mostly just looking for stuff like index scans rather than seeks and trying to reduce those
 
when the application or feature is complete, profile for bottlenecks. Often, a non-optimized sql query makes no difference when it only runs once per day. Optimize the real problems like sql that runs every minute or second. 80/20 rule
 
@Obviously was it a data-centric role? Because I don't think I've ever been asked questions that are that niche
 
6:15 PM
I once didn't get a strictly wpf job because I assumed there was a 'font-color' css property in an interview question... D:
it is
but I didn't know css at the time
 
@CuddleBunny Sounds like a stupid company anyway.
 
I knew that there was background-color
Yeah, they were a linkedin wanna-be and I was going to make them internal use tools in wpf...
 
6:29 PM
So many start-ups are so stupid.
"VCs, give us your money. We're going to rewrite LinkedIn. Everyone will flock to us because _____________"
Forget the mass-adoption and entrenchment of the service, and the fact that LinkedIn will be continually fixing bugs and adding new features during this time.
 
yeah, I was working with this guy who wanted to make a linkedin competitor and I told him I would work for free maybe 4 hours a week
and he got mad when I didn't get something done in 2 weeks
 
so I told him to get lost and he came crawling back no less than 4 times asking for help D:
the best part, you can log into his wanna-be linkedin with your linkedin account XD
 
edc
if you don't expect to work for free, how can you expect a programmer to do so?
 
you know... I never realized how many linkedin wanna-bes I know D: and all of them had been terrible experiences...
the only pleasant social site work I'd done was with a homeless rastafarian guy I found while I was in college in Anaheim...
but I could never find him to deliver things so he would need to find me
 
6:38 PM
@KendallFrey I think it's possible to get a genuinely good idea clicking through those
Might have to click a couple hundred thousand times though
 
darn, guessed wrong
there
 
@CuddleBunny My cousin - "you can write code, right? Have you seen the social network? I have an idea... let's create the next facebook"
nope.jpg
 
Internet of Things + social media + gamification =
 
@TomW lol
 
well, money, hopefully
 
6:42 PM
"psh, code monkeys. we had the idea to create the next facebook"
die.
 
@ton.yeung "How many people developing the product?" >> [The money] / that
Sorry, cumbersome notation
money / 4
 
I dunno why anyone tries to make the next <anything>.
 
...is what your answer should be
 
Following dreams can be dangerous. Dreams have a tendency to reflect a very limited version of the fantasy that people suppose.
 
> All deliverables must also give me a backrub and an almond milk latte made just so
 
6:45 PM
@Obviously that's why dreams are called dreams
 
@ton.yeung I'd have put it at around the turn of the millennium
as a guess
 
!!wiki soa
 
can anybody explain this answer in more detail?
8
A: Removing duplicate elements with XSLT

Dimitre NovatchevI. XSLT 1.0 solution: Here is a solution using Muenchian grouping: <xsl:stylesheet version="1.0" xmlns:xsl="http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Transform"> <xsl:output omit-xml-declaration="yes" indent="yes"/> <xsl:strip-space elements="*"/> <xsl:key name="kLineById" match="Line" use="ItemID|ITEMID"/>

 
Soa may refer to: Soa, Cameroon, a town in Centre region Soa Island, an islet lying to the south of Iona, Scotland Soa Airport, an airport in Bajawa, Indonesia Søo, a river in Norway, also known as the Søa See also SOA (disambiguation), for various uses of these initials...
 
how it does its thing
 
6:47 PM
@ton.yeung I was almost working seven years ago, that can't be right
 
well, i'm pretty sure the island exist for several thousand years already though
 
> With the introduction of Web Services over the last year or so, there has been a renewed interest in service-oriented architecture (SOA).
@ton.yeung I didn't have my first real job until less than seven years ago, I'd have interpreted SOA as a non-new term then
 
hey folks , need one help .whats the best way to show different dates based on timezones using webapi 2 and json formatter
 
oh, actually it's just over that
Anyway, that article is dated 2002 and references it as an established term
 
lol... Automapper maps "My.Namespace.MyViewModel" to string Type on my model...
 
6:50 PM
@SteveG Muenchian grouping, duh
 
@ton.yeung OK, so I'm preparing to have a debate with someone on this broad topic. I'm not sure exactly when, but it's going to happen.
Microservices.
Is this bullshit.
Yes.
@ton.yeung ok, so pick this up when you get back. From what I understand of this term 'microservices', to me it just sounds like "SOA done right". I don't see how it's anything new or innovative, it seems to just advocate fixing the problems with how so-called SOA has been done in the past, for example with really heavy service buses, integration platforms etc.
 
Hey guys just a quick question. I have 2 apps in C# and I need first application to kill the other but the other must capture kill event. Form_Closing is not working for me. What event should I use?
 
@TomW I often describe it exactly as you just did... SOA done right.
 
cowboy way: Process.Kill()
gentlemen way: add a portal listener to listen kill command
 

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