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7:00 PM
@Joren: I can't read it :( Though I've got the CTP installed, and I think this is code from one of the samples
 
@entens here's a fella what already did that too ... this is the sort of thing I just have a floater class on my projects that I tote along (shame I suppose) geekswithblogs.net/mtreadwell/Default.aspx
 
he's rewriting on the fly, of course, but still...
 
I don't think extension methods work in bindings.
 
No - you'd have to expose it as a property
 
In the non-fullscreened player I get 1.3 Mbit/s of data, which makes the text readable, but only barely
 
7:01 PM
a converter's probably the nicest option there
 
If I fullscreen it it goes up to 3 Mbit/s
Which is great
 
@Joren, I tried full screen briefly, very briefly... :)
 
@tomdietrich Can you just set the TextTrimming in the style for your expander?
or do you need 25 characters exactly?
 
@Benjol It takes a dozen seconds or so to get to full bandwidth usage for me
 
ok
didn't want to wait ;)
 
7:02 PM
It's worth the wait
 
ah, so I see, ok, timeout, 'cos I've only got one screen ... later ;)
 
Yeah, I have the chat running on my second pc now
 
@ReedCopsey Text... trimming... ?
 
sooo sexy, take me to the download :)
 
@Benjol see Reed's blog post he linked to a while ago
 
7:09 PM
I wasn't toooo far off:
 
0
A: Speculation on "hypothetical upcoming C#5" CPS feature

llcfI don't have any idea but might want to watch "The Future of C# and Visual Basic" from PDC10 once it is posted.

 
@Benjol Yeah
 
ok boom head asplode ... why a new operator for the beginning of a line, and what does said bang operator do?
 
7:12 PM
@ReedCopsey <Expander>
<Expander.Header>
<TextBlock Text="{Binding Path='Description'}"
TextWrapping="NoWrap"
TextTrimming="WordEllipsis" />
</Expander.Header>
 
@drachenstern what?
 
worked great!
thanks!
 
quoting "!int x = 3;" <--- ehwut?
 
by-the-by, is anyone else having issues with MSDN today? it's working like 1/3 times for me.
 
does anyone else tend to accidentally click the 'answer this question' button when typing a comment for the bottom most answer? it happens to me like every time lol
 
7:14 PM
@drachenstern :) You need to watch Anders...
 
@tomdietrich nope, not I
@Shogun from time to time
 
@tomdietrich what kind of issues? just it's not loading right?
 
@tomdietrich No problem - btw - I'd ask questions like that in the WPF chat ;)
 
@Benjol I presumed that ... enough on my plate as it is today, just keeping this up as a way to destress for a bit
 
@ReedCopsey I wasn't thinking of it as a WPF specific question, string formating is more general
 
7:15 PM
yeah -
@drachenstern: That was just somebody supposing that they'd steal the F# model.
the C# case is:
 
@Shogun takes forever to try to load then gives us some weird error relating to the cgi server
 
var result = await SomeMethodAsync();
inside of a method declared async
 
What a coincidence, the compiler expansion of this async/await stuff looks a lot like Lippert's last blog post. ;)
 
so what does the !int mean or imply in F#?
 
you know we've got kinda a dilemma with the WPF room. Namely it doesn't really get used all that much
 
7:17 PM
yeah
 
!int is a made up example
 
funny how that is ;)
 
@drachenstern do this, and call me back when you're done
 
Speaking of Eric Lippert, he just published a new blog post
 
! is used in F# for async
 
yeah - he released it right at 11:30
 
@Joren AAAggg, don't nerd snipe me!
 
@drachenstern it's @Benjol's demonstration of an unused bit of syntax
 
@Benjol so what good would it be on an assignment? how would you supply a callback? or are you strictly assuming async assignment?
 
@drachenstern this is a short summary: reedcopsey.com/2010/10/28/…
of how it's being done in C#
 
7:19 PM
@drachenstern, sorry, later - or let Reed explain, I haven't finished watching the right answer :)
 
(and VB.NET, though I just focused on C#)
I explain what's happening step by step at the bottom
F#'s got a different async model than the one they used for C#
so it's a bit different there
 
lol, that's fine ... I'll read it @ReedCopsey since I see that I'm not going to avoid clicking that link today :p
 
(and I'm not quite as familiar with F#... yet)
 
ahhhhh
I see there
 
hehehe - you can aovid it
read soma's or eric's post, too :)
 
7:20 PM
Soma?
 
Oh, him
 
those are the other two posts I've seen on this
 
Does anyone know what would cause hitting the 'debug' button in Visual Studio to keep rebuilding setup files? The dependency order clearly puts the setup project after the project I'm debuggin
 
you hitting debug with the project selected or the solution?
 
7:22 PM
yes, the project
and thats the 'startup project'
 
not sure then
 
you can do what I do
disable the setup projects unless you're trying to use them
 
I love C#, it should be around for a while right? I'm totally serious.
I mean it's a standard right, it's not just some Microsoft specific thing?
 
languages never die
 
I know they created it..
 
7:25 PM
@Shogun right
 
@tomdietrich I thought of that too, but there's no 'unload project' option for setup that I can find
 
or did they?
 
@Shogun they did
 
MS will be devving C# for at least the next 5 years I think
 
ok cool does anyone develop C# for non .NET?
 
7:26 PM
And sure, there's the ecma standards
 
such as Mono?
 
@Shogun do you mean like the MONO project?
 
@Shogun : Mono
 
or, say, C# on the JVM?
 
I mean can I write an exe in C# without the CLR or whatever
just like i can write a C++ app?
 
7:26 PM
C# on JVM would be tough, and only getting tougher, since there are so many language/framework integrations now
 
i might be using the wrong term, CLR, CIL or something i forget lol
 
i thought C# on the JVM was just Java 1.6...
 
@Shogun From what I understand, that's impossible for now
 
you'll need some sort of runtime; otherwise, who's going to do your garbage collection?
 
hmm ok
 
7:26 PM
@Shogun Mono has an AOT compiler
 
good point @TimRobinson
 
There are no publicly available C# to native compilers, are there?
 
it won't run directly on the CPU
 
but it's limited - you have to leave out some features (like reflection, for example)
 
MS Research has Bartok of course
 
7:27 PM
(you could write a GC in C#, however)
 
@Joren Mono's got one - look at their AOT
 
@Joren go via the Mono AOT
the .NET JIT compiler is still a compiler; it just compiles at run time, instead of at build time
 
I believe MonoTouch produces self-contained app bundles for the iPhone
 
Yeah - and Unity uses it, too
 
7:28 PM
iPhone apps aren't allowed to contain a JIT or intepreter
 
@TimRobinson JIT compiles IL to native, that's a different subject
 
and as far as I understand it @TimRobinson the thing it compiles looks the same whether or not you used VB or C# right? The VB/C# part is what we see and then it converts it or something?
and then it compiles that
the intermediary something or other
 
@Joren ...?
 
@Shogun IL - "Intermediate Language"
 
@Shogun the intermediate language, right
 
7:29 PM
@Shogun yes, once you get to MSIL or IL, then the compiled code comes out the same
 
I think when we say compile we mean to machine code @Joren
 
@Shogun No we don't
 
hence it would be the JIT in this case, but for C++ it happens right when you build from your IDE
 
technically compilation is any sort of translation from one language to another
 
oh...
 
7:29 PM
@Shogun not on .NET
 
on .NET it compiles to machine at run time i thought
 
Right
 
@Shogun usually, except for ahead-of-time compilers like Mono's AOT or Microsoft's ngen
 
@ReedCopsey Does that page refuse to load for you as well?
 
on the MS runtime, you can run ngen.exe to produce an assembly in the GAC with the IL replaced with native code
 
7:31 PM
for some reason my subconscious is bias towards not liking JIT compile but I'm not sure why..
 
which is effectively the same as what the Mono AOT compiler is doing
@Shogun it's a brilliant idea
 
I like the idea that it is already compiled, isn't it more secure that way?
 
@Shogun why not?
 
I mean if it's already byte code
 
no, just more obfuscated
 
7:31 PM
provides a lot of flexibility
 
I don't see what security has to do with it
 
isn't it less overhead too?
 
your browser does it with javascript
it's how java is run
 
Depends
 
@Shogun not necessarily
 
7:31 PM
JITting is a time overhead
 
machine code tends to take up more space than IL
 
But the resulting code might actually have less overhead
 
interesting
 
Than a direct C# to native compilation would have
 
there's no point turning IL->machine code if the machine code isn't going to get run
you save space by delaying that compilation until it's needed
and reduced size = increased speed
(bigger size = more cache occupied = less space in the cache for important stuff = slower)
 
7:32 PM
@Joren and @Shogun: There are advantages to JIT, though - the actual machine in question can do different optimizations than you can do in advance
 
so maybe I have unfounded bias but I thought that C++ was more efficient for that reason
oh true, I read that it may do things differently depending on the processor too @ReedCopsey
 
@ReedCopsey that too: for instance, taking advantage of an x64 processor, or SSE3 instructions
 
@Shogun not necessarily - see this:
 
ya that
 
17
Q: Why would I see ~20% speed increase using native code?

Robert H.Any idea why this code: extern "C" __declspec(dllexport) void Transform(double x[], double y[], int iterations, bool forward) { long n, i, i1, j, k, i2, l, l1, l2; double c1, c2, tx, ty, t1, t2, u1, u2, z; /* Calculate the number of points */ n = (long)pow((double)2, (double)ite...

 
7:33 PM
@TimRobinson which in turn becomes a consequence of the runtime, yes?
 
@Shogun it's like assembly language vs. C++; it's possible for some humans to write faster assembly language than C++ compilers
 
Did the talk just die for everyone, or just me?
 
C++ compiles to assembly
 
@Shogun but in reality, the raw bytes of code are only one factor in performance
 
C# compiles to compile to assembly
 
7:34 PM
@Reed me as well
 
it's turtles, all the way down
 
could always use NGEN to basically eliminate the JIT.
 
@ReedCopsey Yes, that was what I was talking about in
2 mins ago, by Joren
But the resulting code might actually have less overhead
 
@TimRobinson oh.. so the machine may be able to 'write' faster machine code from C# than I could write in C++?
 
I'd go so far to say that most modern performance considerations are cache considerations
 
7:35 PM
@TimRobinson I mean than what would be the final result of what I write in C++*
 
@TimRobinson do I smell a talk on premature optimizations erupting shortly? ;)
 
@Shogun a couple of us have mentioned the potential for JIT compilation to be quicker than regular compilation
 
is it just me or are the tavern and c# rooms merging...
 
hehehe - the issue is that you could write faster code in C++ (or assembly) if you knew the specific machine where it was going to run
 
@Shogun when used well, garbage collection tends to be more efficient than new/delete
 
7:36 PM
but normally, you write code to run on any machine
so you can't target specific optimization paths
 
btw, I don't think it's a C++ vs C# issue
 
but the JIT knows which system it's running on (at runtime ;) ), and can potentially do optimizations beyond what you can do manually
 
more of a native vs managed one
 
that is so awesome @ReedCopsey
 
there are even research JIT implementations (mostly for java) that re-optimize code at runtime based on the last time it ran
 
7:37 PM
you can write C++ code for .NET too
 
so you can run code, and the JIT can see there was an issue, and rework the optimization so next run it's faster
 
@ReedCopsey there are some fascinating Javascript JIT optimizers :)
 
I always wanted to get good at C++ just because it's cool, I guess that is all, I think it's cool
 
OK, I'm done, anyone still got questions about F#? :)
 
JIT is worth it because you can let the compiler create IL that the JIT can make run on both 32 and 64 bit systems.
 
7:38 PM
but I have yet to find a good reason to actually use it in the real world lol
 
@ReedCopsey Have you heard about the tracing jit for javascript?
 
@Joren Yeah - I'm not much of a javascript guy, though
 
@Shogun it's worthwhile learning, if only for the experience of learning it
 
almost everything I do is desktop/workstation based, so I haven't really looked into it in detail
 
I just wish I was good at programming a language that I could use on ANY OS
 
7:39 PM
@TimRobinson Personally, I'd learn functional programming first, if it's just to pick up a new language
 
@Shogun you can use .NET on several OSes, via Mono or Silverlight
 
I don't like thinking my skills are bound to Windows environment (though that is the same reason I like web development)
 
@ReedCopsey yes yes yes this
 
hello python, perl, javascript, and a few others
 
yeah but what about Mac OS :/
 
7:39 PM
they all run on just about any os
 
@Shogun mono runs on OSX just fine.
 
@drachenstern Also Java of course
 
but it's not likely some enterprise is going to implement somethuing like that is it
 
@Shogun I can demonstrate Mono on OS X right now if you like :)
 
it seems more likely they would want it done native
 
7:40 PM
@ReedCopsey so what about learning how to convert procedural javascript to functional javascript? ;)
 
Silverlight works great on OS X too
 
@Shogun want what done native?
 
@Joren I was rather skipping Java since it's in the same boat as C# most of the time ;)
 
@Shogun you can develop native UIs with Mono on OSX.
 
hmm
 
7:40 PM
@Shogun e.g. using the MonoMac stuff they've been working on recently.
 
I thought you needed some kind of run time but I guess this means that Mono is NOT JIT?
 
@Shogun and if you design your program properly, you can separate out your UI layer and have native UIs for each platform, if that's your thing.
 
@drachenstern Which is exactly why it's worth mentioning imo :P
 
@Shogun Mono gives you the choice
 
@drachenstern heh, I'd rather focus on learning Scheme, Clojure, F#, or something like that
 
7:41 PM
@Shogun you can embed/bundle the mono runtime.
 
and as for the reasons to learn C++, I only have so much time in the day I have to learn what my job requires and it's hard to come up with my own idea for a project at home
 
@joren I assumed the argument was for non JAVA/.NET languages
 
oh, nifty @pete
 
C++ is the language I have most interest in learning atm
I know it a bit, but not extensively
 
@ReedCopsey so ... yeah, hmmm, idk, I figure if a person already knows how to do procedural javascript then they have a foundation on the language to learn the functional aspects as well, although it can still bite them in the arse because they'll want to comingle concepts
 
7:42 PM
C++ is a nice language to know - especially since templates allow a different form of generic programming
which can really change how you think of things
 
@Joren same here maybe we should start a team project it always helps me to have someone else in on something to motivate progression
 
@Shogun don't get hung up on the JIT compilation issue; I've never seen it become a factor in performance
 
Yeah
 
but it's just so damn slow to compile... it frustrates me whenever I have to do real work now
 
@TimRobinson outside of tight loops maybe? That's the only time I could see it being an issue, but once again, PO ...
 
7:43 PM
I don't know a lot about the details of templates at the moment, but what I've seen looks awesome
 
IME caching and concurrency affect performance the most
 
@Reed I've seen some template compiler errors ...
Raptors, demons, etc.
 
@drachenstern except in a couple of specialist domains, most code isn't CPU-bound
 
it takes some time to understand how to decipher the errors in templates
but that's the only feature that really is unique to C++
 
i want to write a web application in C++
 
7:44 PM
@drachenstern I guess parts of scientific computing, graphics, finance...
 
templates can do a lot of things generics can't touch
 
What I find especially cool about C++ is that you can just do things like auto_ptr, shared_ptr, etc
Not a lot of languages in which you can implement those
 
@TimRobinson hence my tight loop comment, yah? Most times it seems to be either IO bound or something to do with RAM loading/unloading ...
 
@Shogun Don't do it! (I cringe just thinking about that...)
 
@drachenstern precisely
@drachenstern or networking
 
7:44 PM
@TimRobinson those are the fields I want to get into
 
i just like working with C++ for the same reason that i think people like riding motorcycles
it's a little more dangerous?
 
@Shogun But you have so much to live for ...
 
@TimRobinson ... hehehe, isn't networking just another IO latency? ;)
 
hahaha
 
@drachenstern I work in finance, and I've hardly touched C++ since .NET came in
@drachenstern that, and speed of light latency :)
 
7:45 PM
@Shogun and you know what they say about motorcyclists? Two types: those who've had an accident, and those who will soon.
 
exactly, luckily in my computer that just means a BSOD or a huge memory leak
or, if i'm really lucky, a fried component
that would be really fun
 
@TimRobinson yeah, I'm into ASP.NET for the bills nowadays, so my thoughts on scientific computing are constrained to helping my buddies with their distributed work
lol@speed of light latency
 
I've seen so much Fortran code in the context of scientific computing
It makes me sick :P
And the kind of Fortan code that people talk about when they say 'you can write Fortran code in any language'
 
@Shogun been done, just poke about on the web. You've got to deal with a lot of overhead headache
 
20k lines : 5 functions
 
7:47 PM
maybe i could write some kind of AI, or a program that plays minecraft on it's own
 
14
Q: How popular is C++ for making websites/web applications?

Vilx-I don't know why this is question is bugging me, but time after time I come back to the though - why not make websites in C++? So far I know of none (except a rumor about Yahoo). Most use PHP, Java or ASP.NET. Some are built on Ruby or Python, but even those are minorities. At the same time, loo...

 
@Shogun Why bother, write a map editor instead :P
 
you feed in blueprints and it takes control of your minecraft client and builds things and gathers the required materials from mines
@Joren i'm trying to think of a project so i can learn C++ but yeah exactly, that is why i havent come up with anything good because everythign is already done
 
I got started on Minecraft at the weekend
 
I wrote an analysis program for Minecraft Alpha maps a while ago, I wanted to see what the distribution of various block types at each level was
 
7:48 PM
how do you, you know, do stuff?
 
I tried downloading the Quake source code but it's really confusing
 
@Shogun I tend to write small graphics apps in each new language
 
I <3 Minecraft so much, muliplayer is fun but singleplayer is better right now because there is mosnters and you can die
 
stevehanov.ca/blog/index.php?id=95 wow, by the same guy who did WebSequenceDiagrams ... interesting
 
in multiplayer you can also regenerate your items so they never run out..
 
7:49 PM
Multiplayer is too buggy imo
Singleplayer bored me after a while
 
@Shogun a ray tracer is big enough to get used to the language, but small enough to keep the source understandable
 
ya it is real bad
I don't get why the source is not combined for SP and MP, it should all just be MP and then a SP game would just be a local instance of a server with one person connecting to it
I don't get why they have different code base for them
or why it must be devved separately
 
Probably inertia
 
yeah i suppose the implementation for red stone switches and what not could get kind of intensive and if it has to be done on the server and you have like 20 people doing it in different 300 block radius locations...
i wonder if i can reverse engineer the client and create a client with a greater view distance, that is what i really want..
anyways im getting a little off topic here lol
 
@Shogun no ... that's handled by the server, and rendered out to you.
at least, that's my understanding from some arstechnica forums
 
7:54 PM
i saw some past hacks though that let people change it via a hex editor
 
The redstone was interesting for a while, but I quickly got bored with the fact that you can't actually do anything useful with it
 
so it made me think i could change the number of blocks requested by the client to the server
but the hacks dont work anymore with the newest clients
though I assume a single player game is all on my side the only thing that would go out to the server would be my login
 

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