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8:04 PM
FWIW -2 on a bike is -10
and under all that salt water...
I need a right angle
 
Draw two circles of equal radii whose centers each lie on the other's circumference. Draw a line through their centers, and draw a line through the two points where their circumferences intersect.
 
lemme try...
no, that won't help me put together my furniture right:P
I meant one of these
 
8:19 PM
Ever wonder how they made the first right angle tool? How could they verify that it was accurate?
 
omygodsohmygodsohmygods there's an app for watching the Estonian animal webcams‌​, doesn't even need permissions
 
Reminds me of how they made flat glass in olden times by floating molten glass on top of denser liquid material
Float glass is a sheet of glass made by floating molten glass on a bed of molten metal, typically tin, although lead and various low melting point alloys were used in the past. This method gives the sheet uniform thickness and very flat surfaces. Modern windows are made from float glass. Most float glass is soda-lime glass, but relatively minor quantities of specialty borosilicate and flat panel display glass are also produced using the float glass process. The float glass process is also known as the Pilkington process, named after the British glass manufacturer Pilkington, which pioneered the...
 
yeah, I knew about that one
 
Hmm, I guess 1950 doesn't really qualify as olden times
 
And I think some parabolic mirrors are done similarly, by rotating glass? Not sure. What I do know is the awesomeness that is the Large Zenith Telescope
 
8:22 PM
@paul23 clothes are everything.
 
i.e. big-ass pool of rotating mercury for a perfect paraboloid
 
instructables.com/id/Making-a-Square-Square discusses how to make an inaccurate square more accurate, but I'm guessing it's not how industrial square manufacturers do it.
The "draw a line, then flip the square over and draw another line, and see if they're parallel" tip is good for verification though
 
I'm a happy (future) end-user of squares
 
Sometimes I think about how in prehistory you could go your whole life without seeing a flat surface or a straight line or a right angle or a completely enclosed space.
 
certain ponds might be flat
 
8:29 PM
there's an entire study about that concept
 
otherwise...yes, probably
 
I can't remember what it's called though
 
Meanwhile in the present each of those things are within my line of sight for the majority of my waking hours
 
no wonder you need glasses
 
DSM
Hooray! A little dose of reactor pattern and my messages no longer collide with each other.
 
8:30 PM
I'm imagining a bunch of messages driving around in bumper cars
 
recbg
is it too bad that I don't use an ORM?
 
In the BC's you could live a rich and fulfilling life without ever knowing what time it was with sub-hour accuracy.
 
I like writing SQL
 
@AndrasDeak wow at that overwhelmingly large telescope, should that have been completed... it would have been overwhelmingly large.
 
8:31 PM
@khajvah I think it depends on the application -- if you don't have too many model objects, it's no big deal
 
@khajvah don't worry, every one of us is at least a little crazy / not completely sane.
 
btw, is there a tool for somehow reusing sql code?
 
@khajvah yes, it is called sqlalchemy
 
:/
I don't want models and stuff
I just want raw queries
 
@khajvah yes, it is called sqlalchemy.
you obviously don't know anything about sqlalchemy
 
8:34 PM
well, "anything" is a little extreme but
 
@davidism I wonder if you should update the main sopython.com page ;)
 
@khajvah well, what do you know about sqlalchemy then?
 
It's an ORM
 
nuh uuuh
 
@khajvah exactly.
 
8:36 PM
@WayneWerner soon it'll be PyCon again and I can just update the year.
 
I've never used sqlalchemy, but I did go down the rabbit hole of researching ORMs when I was trying to get stuff working with Android
what does sqlalchemy do better/correctly?
 
@khajvah that is why I said you obviously don't know anything about sqlalchemy
 
@davidism lol. Even a broken calendar is accurate once a year?
 
you could start by actually reading the front page at sqlalchemy.org
 
8:37 PM
"We're going to be, are at, or will be at PyCon!". There, future-proofed.
 
import sqlalchemy as sa

engine = sa.create_engine('sqlite:///:memory:')

engine.execute(sa.text('CREATE TABLE fnord (id text);'))
 
@MarcusS "SQLAlchemy considers the database to be a relational algebra engine, not just a collection of tables. Rows can be selected from not only tables but also joins and other select statements; any of these units can be composed into a larger structure. SQLAlchemy's expression language builds on this concept from its core."
 
no ORM involved. And if that's valid sqlite SQL, then it works. If it's not, sorry, I don't write raw table creation statements very often :)
 
@WayneWerner you didn't even really use any alchemy there.
 
the thing about ORM is that I don't feel like I have control on when it makes queries and how many queries are executed
 
8:40 PM
@khajvah that means you're not using SQLAlchemy
 
when you use sqlalchemy you will have control.
and you can move on a spectrum...
 
it provides you anywhere from, "Bah, WTF you want, I don't care what you run", down to, "Do only what I tell you to, peasant!"
 
alright I am starting to read the docs
 
@khajvah the thing about sqlalchemy is that it can be the wrong choice only because it is too powerful, not that it wouldn't be powerful enough.
 
8:45 PM
that can't be too big of a problem
 
granted, @IljaEverilä had to submit some PRs to SQLAlchemy to have some more recent PostgreSQL syntax accepted there...
 
well, if my project fails, I will at least learn it
@AnttiHaapala upsert thingy?
 
your project cannot fail because of sqlalchemy being too powerful - I am talking about people who have hard time understanding Django orm
 
> I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.
-- Edison (disputed)
 
I am making a web app for debating
so Antti can trash python 2 in more organized way
 
DSM
8:47 PM
No, you're not. #swidt
 
Is it possible to pull out variables from another application in python?
 
@davidism I liked this, thanks for sharing.
 
@Pigman168 wat?
 
@khajvah Get the health of my character in a game for example
 
Is the game also written in Python?
 
8:49 PM
what game?
 
@Kevin Nope, java
 
is it minecraft by any chance?
 
Nope
Good guess though based on my profile, haven't played in ages
 
@Pigman168 Add the value to DB, cache, file, etc... read from there? You can not directly fetch it from the running application as far as i know
 
DSM
Peeking into the memory of a process is doable on many architectures, but lots of headaches abound. It'd be much easier to push the data from the process side, if that's viable.
 
8:50 PM
@AnttiHaapala Went as a michelin but survived
 
@DSM @MoinuddinQuadri Yea I'd have to look at the live memory of the game
 
@paul23 Bibendum
 
@DSM is it really? Can you pull a non-random stuff from a java app?
@Pigman168 use a cache
like redis
 
Back in the day I'd write little cheat engines for Minecraft that let you fly around and such. As I recall, it wasn't too hard to modify the source. You could use 7zip or similar to unpack .jar files into their composite .java files. Then you could modify whatever you wanted and re-build.
 
Oh ok, I'll look into it
 
8:52 PM
Sometimes you can locate the addresses you need by scanning for the desired value as it changes in real-time
 
^ Was thinking about that too
 
ofc everything was obfuscated so you'd have to guess what a.bc.d = 23 meant, but that was part of the fun
 
DSM
Takes me back to my C64 hacking days, the last computer I actually understood. :-)
 
@Kevin that's different
 
serious question: why do front end jobs seem to pay so much? Is there a shortage of front end engineers or something?
 
DSM
8:53 PM
But I really doubt it's going to be worth the effort.
 
I always feel like there's an abundance of front end and not enough people doing server/system work
 
@corvid because javascript sucks
 
Is it possible to do {incredibly underspecified task} in Python? Yes, with {incredibly vague direction}.
 
@AnttiHaapala yeah, but it's easy
 
@AnttiHaapala nope
 
8:53 PM
@corvid shortage of talent. Backend engineer are well paid too. But not everyone gets that ;)
 
DSM
@davidism: now, now. {handwavy inspirational comment}
 
is there really that much of a shortage? :| but why?
 
Isn't front end devs basically just full stack devs ?
 
Sometimes I use Poke to inject into foreign processes and give myself infinite health or whatever. Primitive, but largely effective. Except on semi-exotic processes that regularly move around the location of variables. Typical of languages with high levels of abstraction. Java might be one of them.
 
@DSM { :-| }
 
8:54 PM
for example I only see full stack devs job posting and back end job posting ...
 
there are 2 kinds of front end devs: back end devs who do front end, and html/css devs who are terrible at JS
 
It's also fun to bytecode hack when you can / if the game can be decompiled
 
@paul23 anw, being "Michelin Man" Bibendum is is the wrong way to do it. Wear less. Wear smart.
 
Maybe it's a difference of location, I work in Boston and I feel like there's an endless cornucopia of front end jobs and medical jobs
 
Can make all sorts of cool hacks that way
 
8:55 PM
@MooingRawr Not necessarily. In our organization roles are divided. I personally do not even know "J" of Javascript (mainly work on the backend stuff)
 
@MoinuddinQuadri Oh really? that's interesting...
In my company, we have the UI team which holds the title of full stack dev, and the back end teams (where I'm sitting at)
 
I always just assumed full-stack = front-end and back-end
 
actually -2 C I wear jeans, good shoes, just one shirt and a wool overcoat.
 
@MarcusS I did too, but since coming to my company, I thought full stack = mostly front end and maybe some config back end stuff
 
@MarcusS Well that's true. But some start-ups now consider devops role also as the part of full-stack development
 
DSM
8:58 PM
I need a new minion. Having solved the hard part I want to assign the boring cleanup to someone else, but my mentee isn't really a minion and she has more important responsibilities right now. :-/
 
@AnttiHaapala It's in your genes to withstand cold :P
 
@DSM Hire another little yellow 'thing' that meeps meeps to every command you give
 
@paul23 BS, my wife's genes are Vietnamese
and you complain much more than she :D
 
@MooingRawr Your company must have modified the definition of full-stack development :D OR, may be it is done to attract people who run after the title ;)
 
@MoinuddinQuadri eh who knows..... All I want to do is find a job close to my home that works with Python and I don't care if I'm front end or back end or side ways end. If it's a Python end, I'm all in.
 
9:00 PM
Complaining (about weather) is -after football- our national sports. So I have to uphold the proud tradition.
;)
 
Out of curiosity, is "full-stack" some recent term? I feel like I had never heard of it prior to about 4-5 years ago
 
no
@MarcusS though it could have meant different things before
 
@MooingRawr Well I personally don't consider Python (along with any web-framework) a very good choice for client side stuff; having APIS based on Python is fine. may be opinion based
 
whatever you talk about JS, nowadays, it is a pretty good choice for the web
maybe better than Python
 
9:05 PM
@khajvah and that I think is mainly with the evolution of node.js . It is pretty powerful.
 
yea
easy to write and pretty damn fast
 
@MooingRawr I think it varies hugely on company. One time I was hired as a front end engineer somewhere and my first job was to do a data migration in ruby and implement oauth with twitter on the back end
 
This is why it's so hard to find a right fitting job. What does the title even mean, and sure job descriptions are decent, but sometimes aren't relevant at all lol... Guess you have to ask more questions at the interview stage.
 
I basically "made" the job I have now because there were no jobs in my area.
 
@Programmer Opened your own company? O.o Interesting...
 
9:11 PM
Haha no. I applied at a small company in my area and they decided to hire me as an intern and eventually become an official employee.
 
@MoinuddinQuadri I remember reading about how the founder of Paypal basically failed his first 5 'start up idea' before coming up with paypal...
 
@MooingRawr That's True. Elon Musk one of the founder of PayPal is now changing the world. He is my inspiration.
 
I want to follow him but I'm curious on how he 'survived'so many failures... where did his income come from when he was failing....
I also read that he enjoys 12 hours shifts work days, Something about only working 3 or 4 days a week. I wish that was the standard instead of 9-5 , 5 days a week.
 
DSM
@MooingRawr: hey, looks like you were right about Joey Bats!
 
@DSM ;3 yup... I kinda sad that it wasn't EE and that our pen is slightly in shambles but, trade season is coming soon
 
9:33 PM
Does anyone know whether the 2nd amendment specifically declares self defense laws?
 
@MooingRawr He was one of the founder of PayPal. That means strong social connections, and wealthy friends. Plus his vision to change the mankind. Many huge organizations support him. I have read it long back that he invested all his money, even mortgaged his house during the downtime of Tesla Motors. His friends use to carry food for him (not sure of the authenticity)
 
I meant before he got big, while he was still trying to make a name for himself. I guess he networked and made connection with rich people and got them to invest on him
Oh well, it's a road I don't wanna take. Not so fond on the idea of making friends with someone with the sole purpose of investing their money. Seems rather scumy. But if I was just to look for investors first and than maybe befriend them for other reasons, I guess that would be alright.
 
If interested, you may check career section of his wiki page: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk#Career
Truly an extraordinary person
He achieved everything by himself
at the age of 24, he sold his first company from which he got $22 million. Rest is history.
 
so I have what 2 years to make a company worth 22 million.... okie... okie... need to think of an original idea and run with it....
 
sounds good. Mooing Enterprises. Nice name ;)
 
9:45 PM
I was hoping to revive that era of 'rawr Xd' meme but I don't know how well investors will buy into that
I need to revive myspace if I want a shot with that meme
 
Anyone knows what this error means:
error: command 'C:\\Program Files (x86)\\Microsoft Visual Studio 14.0\\VC\\B
IN\\x86_amd64\\cl.exe' failed with exit status 2
I get it every time I try installing scrapy, specifically when it's installing twisted
 
rbrb. Time to go to bed. Have a meeting scheduled with HR in the morning. Atleast tomorrow I should be reaching office on time :P
 
i am trying to figure out how to shift per byte for every iteration of list of numbers... does anyone know how to make it in normal for / while loop ?
 
10:02 PM
rbrb it's closing time.
 
10:24 PM
wat ... "Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning's Sentence"
 
Artichoke
 
@AnttiHaapala just read that
it's also been floating around whether he'll pardon Snowden, lest Trump executes him?
learned about them yesterday
looking good
 
@AndrasDeak well, I am pretty sure Olympics would be a Pyrrhic victory for Orban.
graah s/orban/fidesz/
 
10:40 PM
hmm I'm trying to make python output latex files.. But there's a lot of preamble and other "always the same" lines inside it. Leading some very very cluttered looking code 300 character long lines of string inbetween them (actually it's more latex-with-python-inbetween for these classes).
 
@paul23 use jinja for example?
 
>>> fidesz is orban
True
anyway, the absurdity of the situation is that most people are seriously considering the Olympics
 
well, I hope he'd eat a fly too big before 2024, and die...
 
the country would crumble, but all those in charge see the personal profit through corruption, which is huuuuge even by our standards
 
Finland has been thinking about hosting shared winter olympics...
 
10:42 PM
and we've historically been lacking a notion of raison d'État
 
Looks nice, have to check it out more thoroughly though.
 
@paul23 you can make extendable templates, you can call blocks etc
and use macros
 
user5870134
11:26 PM
1
Q: Why does it work when I append a new element to a TUPLE?

MangoSince Tuples are non-mutable data types in Python and Tuple comprehensions aren't a thing then why do List comprehensions with circle brackets instead of square brackets work fine and produce regular Tuples? I thought circular brackets were used to define Tuples not Lists (I know I'm not wrong t...

 
I want to build a (most simplistic as possible) command line tic-tac-toe game application
my 'refresh' of the board is as simple as clearing the console and redrawing
is there a more preferential means of updating output on the console?
my 'board' is a 2D array of either blank, X or O
 
@Mango 1. you failed to read the room rules, 2. you failed to ask a question, 3. you failed to post any meta-fluff (such as greetings)
 
user5870134
I'm sorry, let me try again.
 
start with #1 please
 
user5870134
Sure, I will.
 
11:31 PM
cabbage:)
@MichaelHCameron as far as I know, you can only overwrite the line you're on using a carriage return or other control characters, so if you need to reset several lines, I'm not sure there's any other way
and I'm pretty sure the answer is OS-dependent
windows command prompt behaves pretty different from unix terminals, for instance
 
user5870134
Good evening, guys!
 
user5870134
Can anybody help me rationalise why this is working (thanks 😊):
 
user5870134
0
Q: Why does it work when I append a new element to a TUPLE?

MangoSince Tuples are non-mutable data types in Python and Tuple comprehensions aren't a thing then why do List comprehensions with circle brackets instead of square brackets work fine and produce regular Tuples? I thought circular brackets were used to define Tuples not Lists (I know I'm not wrong t...

 
did you do #1?
 
user5870134
Yes and the rules page looks like the official Ubuntu website.
 
user5870134
11:34 PM
Did the developers intentionally theme it to look like that?
 
Considering that you've just intentionally violated the rules for the second time, I'm unsure whether we're talking about the same website
there's not that many letters on that page altogether
you also failed to read the comments posted under your question which explain the situation
but now you have answers too (*throws confetti*)
 
user5870134
I read them, I was following them too, pinging you would count as assisting the flow of existing conversation.
 
it would, yes
> 1. Do not link your recent (< 1-2 days) questions in the room. The main site is the dedicated space for posting questions, and having them answered.
 
user5870134
Well thank you all for your time, I need to go now. You guys have a nice day.
 
@AndrasDeak Question is actually a good one. I know I didn't grasp the difference between generator expressions and tuples until I saw them side-by-side.
 
11:40 PM
take care
@paul23 I disagree
 
user5870134
Thanks, you too.
 
well, the question could be made into a good one, throwing away a lot of fluff
 
Well not so much the "idea" of the two: but the syntax confused me in the past.
 
honestly, two more steps of making that into an MCVE would show that something's not what it seems
and then the question could be "why does (a for b in c) not execute a", which would be a good question, and dupe-able:P
but I'm aware that OP's horribly asocial approach has impaired my judgment in this matter
@davidism do you think it would be worth adding a subsection heading right below "Rules" on the rules page? At least one user has apparently stopped reading after the first 5 points, and I can only assume because of the other subsection headings. Then again "Contact us" is with the same style as the subsection headings, which might or might not be intentional.
 
[formatit(x.mutablething(i)) for i in range(10)] - I saw some colleague make my code into that (where mutablething was changed to return i), considering it would be "more pythonic because less lines".
 
11:50 PM
@paul23 tell them they're wrong
one-liners are overrated, and using a list comp when you discard the list is bad form
 
oh but the list wasn't discarded.
 
it was?
a list of Nones?
formatit(x.mutablething(i)) should conventionally return None
 
Nope, x.mutable(i) was changed to return the input again.
 
well, if you used the list, it could be fine
although mutation inside a list comp can indeed be unexpected/confusing
wait, so... x.mutate(i) both mutates x and returns it?
 
it returned the input "i"
 
11:52 PM
whaaaat?
well, that all doesn't sound right to me, without knowing the details
 
for i in blah:
    x.mutate(i)
    li.append(formatit(i))
That was something like the original code
 
most guys here would probably agree that the original was clearer
you could write x.mutate to accept an iterable, and create li with a list comp
so you'd just have x.mutate(lots_of_is); li = [formatit(i) for i in lots_of_is]
I'm not sure that would be the best form; I'm guessing
 
True, don't even remember the exact thing anymore. Though functions that take both a single item and an iterator are something I did often in the past: and grew to hate after having to create constant tests against strings.
 
no, it's either-or
if you rewrite it, always pass it an iteratable
 
Well I was trying to make it more "numpy-esque"; found it's ability to create extra dimensions on the spot really handy in the data analysis.
 
11:59 PM
Well numpy and data go hand in hand:) That shouldn't stop you from writing proper code:P
 

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