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12:12 AM
interviewing for interns. ughhhhhh
 
intern interviewing needs a totally different mindset
 
fixing the holes their code leaves in your system is worse
 
you have to go in expecting that they are extremely limited in knowledge and can't be held accountable as to why they don't know the thing
you have to look more for the potential
 
the last guy literally couldn't code a for loop. a for loop!
and do they not teach hash tables/dictionaries/maps in school? someone graduating next may should really know about them... right?
 
no - not at intro level - i.e. get unofficial transcript and check for advance (beyond just asking them to make a map/dict/table structure)
also some don't even teach algorithms and data structures
so checking like "what is a bubble sort?" can be a good indicator of actual education
also if you do intro to programming then web development and mobile development at some colleges you can get some just "wonky" programming practices - also saw one scripting class that was Powershell (no idea where that would lead)
 
12:21 AM
I have zero expectations when it comes to web dev experience from students
I don't expect them to have any knowledge in that
Also, I only deal with university level interns
So It is not too hard to gauge what level they should be at depending on which term they are in
 
I'm not even talking about that level of stuff, I mean really basic stuff
like... idk, something like if you have an array how do you find the highest value(s)
 
so like sorts? or just using max()?
 
sure (though this is in java mostly since that's what our local uni teaches)
 
^ that would be the problem
map is not ever taught in Java curriculum
 
I mean, hell, "iterate through the list and do an if check to see if the current value is higher or not" would have been fine
 
12:24 AM
advance programming is always another language (usually C++)
 
if someone decided to sort the list to allow arbitrary n highest numbers or something I would have loved them :P
 
System.out.println(Collections.max(someArray));
 
no one was that clever, at all
 
or using stream (assuming int array): Arrays.stream(tab).max().getAsInt();
 
or something like:
 
12:26 AM
are the questions to be answered in any language, or a particular language
 
@JGreenwell congrats on 1k (hope it will stick this time)
 
or using the IntSummaryStatistics library you can do a few things
thanks @AndrasDeak
 
int max = arr[0];
for (int i = 1; i < arr.length; i++){
if (arr[i] > max) {max = arr[i];}
}
return max;
 
@enderland according to Jeff and everybody else a lot of proper job applicants fail on fizzbuzz, so I couldn't imagine what an intern might know
 
@idjaw any, pseudo code or real code or whatever
 
12:28 AM
@idjaw huh? I prefer any language answers with interns (if you know one language really well at intern level I can get to the rest) but I think enderland wanted Java
 
Does int max = arr[0]; work? Can you define a variable from a non-const in cpp?
 
oh, wait - that ping was from Andras but then I got confused
 
we didn't care what language but the main university we were interviewing from does all java
 
yeah, that works in Java @AndrasDeak - well 7 & 8 I know - and is the standard "just using loops, no libraries" method
 
12:31 AM
java easily (=I don't know java), I thought it was c++ (which I don't know a little less)
 
I pretty much have that verbatim in some of my teaching notes
 
you can do that in C++ I'm pretty sure too
 
of course I could just try, but, y'know, Stack Overflow
 
I'm trying to decide if our question formulation was too hard or if people thought it was a trick question or if we sucked at screening folks or what
 
nah, they should know that version of finding a max value
 
12:32 AM
or people undersucked your worst expectations
you can't find a maximum any more according to definition
 
I wouldn't have even cared if people used the built in max function
 
@enderland are you able to share the close to exact wording of your question?
 
it's not exactly rocket surgery
@enderland you're aware of Jeff's post about goats and sheep, right?
 
Java courses do not teach how to "think like a programmer" so if they didn't also take Logic, Discrete Mathematics, or Algorithms and Data Structures - they will only know cargo cult programming really
 
yeah, that's pretty straight forward. No trickery there.
 
12:34 AM
and how <huge ratio> of population can't think the way it's necessary for programming
 
and I mean, let's just say it was stupidly confusing, asking a few questions makes it trivially obvious
 
^ having taught both Python as an intro and Java - that post is 100% correct
 
anyway, I'm off to sleep:)
rhubarb
 
wow
 
12:36 AM
btw the clever way that you might see a Java programmer do that (without using max):
int a[] = {4,5,7,10,8,11};
Arrays.sort(a);
int max = a[a.length-1];
 
something something maxfun(a[0],maxfun(a[1:]))
just for the heck of it
 
Python is better, but I am very biased ;)
 
sorted feels like cheating
 
import Math is cheating:D
 
max(headroom)
 
12:39 AM
that's r
or d, if you're being literal rather than lexicographical
 
ugh r
never. ever. again
 
well, my original way was way cheating so :P ;)
R is not that bad - as long as your really good at thinking abstractly
 
I think the problem is that CS/CprE don't teach thinking which is the real problem
 
who said anything about R?
 
1 min ago, by enderland
ugh r
 
12:40 AM
1 min ago, by Andras Deak
that's r
 
r == max(headroom)
:P
 
:P
 
I should just program robots to be our interns, might be easier :D
 
12:41 AM
\o
 
what's a pirate's favourite language?
 
C#
 
NO DON'T RUIN MY JOKE!
 
:P
 
that was a better punchline anyway
 
12:42 AM
that was the first that came to my head, lol
 
@AndrasDeak night
 
@JGreenwell I noticed that too. :P
> the Staffing Director for <company> I work with professionals in the Information Technology, Application Development, Marketing and Accounting fields
 
Andras is leaving?
 
a recruiter doing IT and marketting? lolnope, not going to connect
 
weak...weak...
 
12:44 AM
@idjaw and sleepy:P
 
You're getting old...like me.
It's starting
 
I feel like a dev rite of passage is tons of pointless connects on linkedin
 
Also, yes that's what I mean about the not teaching Data structures or algorithms, Logic, or Discrete math - with Java - when one was doing C or C++ this did not matter as much cause you have to learn a lot more low-level procedures - which taught you by fire
 
Yesterday went to sleep at half past 2, got up 5 hours later. Now I'm going to sleep...at quarter to 3 :S
at least I can get up an hour later tomorrow
 
I have to re-do lesson plans for tomorrow cause they keep changing my objectives (well not keep, they're finally done now)
 
12:45 AM
But I have...2 grey hairs on my head:( TWO!
so yeah, getting old, winter is coming, etc.
 
I'll ship you a bottle of whiskey to welcome you to the brotherhood
 
@JGreenwell I think my non-dev background really helps me because I'm used to solving problems, not just coding junk
 
Nooooo
 
along with a manual on how to be an angry old man
 
Send something tasty:D But thanks;)
 
12:46 AM
it'll be great
 
Or will the final signs of oldship be a sudden yearning for whiskey?
 
I have no gray hairs on my head but a gray beard
 
how old are you anyways? like 31? :P
 
who me?
 
I think its a sign I was meant to be a wizard
30s, lets just go with 30s
 
12:47 AM
^^
let's go with that too
 
nigh 29 here
 
^ whippersnapper
 
gramps
 
I feel young, now :o
 
cause you're a toddler:P
join the club with Morgan;)
or Marko, depending on size of diaper
 
12:48 AM
I'm wize bejond my ears
 
and years
 
you have no ears D:
 
!
it's true you don't. You're just a big yellow smile
 
that ^
 
@enderland yeah, my analyst groups tend to do better because they are used to "applied mathematics" and "problems solving using data structures and algorithms" (not the name of the class but how it was run) - some focus too much on theory not solving the problem and Java schools are just prime examples
 
12:49 AM
and shuddup I'm going to sleep
 
<3
o/ Andras
 
take care:)
 
night Andras
 
@JGreenwell yeah. I have been addicted enough to SE over the past years that I've picked up a ton imo
 
actually Java schools are prime examples of a whole bunch of problems
 
12:51 AM
Thinking back to my academics, I had two programming courses in C++
that's it. Any other course that used programming, referred to java and it was up to you to learn it on your own
this was Computer Engineering
 
I've sometimes wondered if I should have done a CS-ish undergrad
 
Now my advance programming classes were nice cause we didn't get questions like "code something that searches an array for...."; instead they'd just give us a problem statement and say "fix it" - at least by the end of the course
 
but I think that it will not be very many years before it doesn't matter at all
I learn a ton from both doing as well as SE anyways
I mean heck it's 8pm on a Thursday night and here I am, trying to learn how to conduct interviews better :P
and now talking about all sorts of related things :P
what's wrong with me
 
It's almost 9PM here and I'm learning about asyncio, updating my LinkedIn (in need of a massive update), reading SO and talking to you punks
 
I came from an IT background so I did an ISM (so like minor CS with business courses - cause I knew how to program already) and wish I had done just straight CS but made up for it with heavy CS based Masters
 
12:54 AM
asyncio is so. much. nicer. than. anything. else. omg
 
@JGreenwell dude! Me too!! I wish I did CS as well
 
my masters was HCI which was sort of CS like, but I wish I had just down a straight CS masters
 
@enderland yeah. I'm in a research task now to see if I can work out (I know there exists solution for this already) how to replace twisted in some of our projects using asyncio
 
ISM is just sucky - really it's like a watered down version of IT stuff with a lot of BA crud
 
@idjaw we have a tornado implementation and a asyncio one, of the same sort of thing. asyncio just... is nice
 
12:57 AM
With all due respect. They are just starting out and you are throwing up a pandas solution. And no explanation on top of that. This is extremely unhelpful. — idjaw 9 secs ago
too much?
@enderland are you allowed to share what you are doing for those?
 
I downvoted it
 
My test subject is actually one of our open source projects called fake-switches
I can share...1 min
 
no, you should add "and just silly" to the end in fact :)
 
we have an internal library we built and other teams consume, but it's implemented in a variety of languages
 
12:58 AM
also true - I love pandas but I don't need to load it for ever problem (and learn Python first then frameworks/libraries/etc)
 
@JGreenwell done.
appended and silly
 
I don't really know what it is about asyncio which I like so much either, it just feels nicer than Tornado
it might be biased that I don't trust our Tornado implementation at all? :P
 
also I have no clue what that guy is trying to do
 
yeah...I looked at their sample data...looked at their code, and I am already doing three things right now. So I'm just going to hope my comments were enough for someone else to help them out :P
 
1:03 AM
That is awesome and frightening at the same time (having worked with JIRA)
 
it's an april fools joke. but still HILARIOUS
 
THEY HAVE A PAGE FOR IT TOO!!!
 
lol
 
 
1 hour later…
user559633
2:22 AM
I didn't know there was a JIRA version for adults
 
That's the free version
 
user559633
Unrelated: I find it funny when startup people say "if you know any potential technical startup cofounders, please send them my way" as if I wouldn't greedily hoard them
 
user559633
It's a little sad because the people that say that don't even know how fucked they are if they're earnestly trying to get something that requires technical know-how off the ground.
 
double Unrelated: I find it funny when people tell me to go to Boston tomorrow not knowing how far Montreal is
 
user559633
@idjaw hey you should pop over tomorrow for some drinks. i'm near boston
 
2:26 AM
Hello, Cruel World!
 
user559633
call out sick or work remotely from the car. it's what, a 7 hour drive?
 
@tristan I actually thought how I would have definitely tried to do that if that email came to me last week
I did not need that much time to make things work...but today is short notice
 
user559633
@idjaw morgo thrappuccino is going to head over again at some point and you're definitely welcome any time (family included)
 
@tristan The next time that happens let me know. I'll work it out with the family
 
user559633
anyway, back to the thing i brought up -- in boston, it's a literal drought for startup technical talent and people with ideas they haven't even tried to implement are asking for a case of gatorade
 
user559633
2:28 AM
@Code-Apprentice hey!
 
yeah sorry I hijacked your comment....let me read that over
and hey @Code-Apprentice
 
user559633
@idjaw haha no worries, you didn't hijack anything
 
How's Python chat today?
 
user559633
good, i think, i was barely around and don't write much python anymore :) how are you?
 
@tristan these startup people are people (devs, other talent) looking to work with people?
 
user559633
2:31 AM
@idjaw check other place
 
@tristan doing well today. Haven't been in this room for a while so I thought I'd pop in and say hi.
 
user559633
@Code-Apprentice glad you did. what are you working on lately?
 
Not python =p
Working on an Android app
although I've been wanting to do some things in Python...just haven't gotten around to them yet.
 
you know whats cool about teaching Python - you get to know the basics really well. You know what sucks - you don't get to do much non-basic stuff that often
 
I wonder if there are any opportunities to dive in to teaching Python in my area. I love teaching people.
I should look in to that
 
2:41 AM
You should check for a Python workshop or group - I find that's a good way to start
most of the time I feel like I'm just teaching Math with a little Python but still - its fun :)
 
Yeah. I had went to one for Ladies Learning to Code, but that only happened once for Python =/. Waiting for more of those. But I should probably look at other groups that are doing similar things
and jump in on that too
 
The last time I tried to go to a "Ladies coding event" I was told I wasn't welcome: even though I wrote up the lesson/programs/answer key/plan/etc...
 
:(
that's very unfortunate
 
yeah, find I run into that stuff a bit in academia stuff (i.e. Ladies only cause not enough ladies in CS) including not getting sponsored for conferences despite 4.0 when someone with a 3.x does..... shrug
not sure if its a region thing or what (also there is some truth to the not enough female CS majors) so shrug and move on to next event
 
DSM
MAPLE LEAF FOREVER
 
user559633
2:49 AM
hello sober DSM
 
NORTH STRONG!
 
dude, that was a really weird question to see on my phone in the middle of the day @DSM
 
user559633
i just got a 12 pack of cisco brewers pumpkin beer because i'm a basic bitch that buys stuff on tech name recognition
 
DSM
@JGreenwell: what, Bob Ross -> Air Force -> anger level by service? Well, sometimes you just want to know something..
@idjaw: Marchand, eh?
 
@DSM I know! It's like the only time I'll ever cheer for the guy
that little jerk
 
2:53 AM
I had to call parents after class today so no drinking for this guy (three day weekend though so :P :D)
Tomorrow I'm thinking a good porter
 
DSM
Usually I hope Bruins get into freak zamboni accidents. But today I'll give Marchand and Bergeron a pass.
 
^^
 
DSM
Mais cette fois seulement!!
 
I hate trying to read french - spellings and sounds just do not match up
 
@DSM je suis d'accord avec toi mon ami.
 
user559633
2:58 AM
je suis baguette mais non eiffel tower oh ho ho
 
DSM
I just undervoice the last few letters in any word. Works 75% of the time. ;-)
 
Pare com essa bobagem
 
I don't know what's more impressive. The fact that the parts in French that Tristan wrote was correct, or half of that entire sentence was french.
oh wait...he forgot something... je suis une baguette
 
user559633
je comprehend pas francais, mais je sais parler un peau oh ho ho velo
 
Now you have to come to Montreal
 
3:03 AM
perdendo a paciência
 
3:34 AM
anyone want to help me out with a question?
 
user559633
no, sorry :(
 
okay :)
 
user559633
(see rules, just ask your question)
 
Pretty much, just ask and if anyone wants to or can, it will happen. If not, well, you gave it your best, slugger.
 
Ill wait a week then >.< Thanks idjaw
 
3:39 AM
a whole week? why?
 
user559633
your last question was 11 days ago, just ask
 
@DavidGonzalez what's your question?
 
Im straight dont want to violate the terms and service. You guys time is 1000x more valuable than so i must research and research. Thank you for your help tho :)
 
user559633
@DavidGonzalez you're fine, just ask
 
ask. ask. ask. ask.
when Antti comes online, it's a sign that I should go to bed. But I'm not tired
hi @AnttiHaapala
:D
 
3:45 AM
....
I am
just woke up, thirsty
 
1
Q: File uploads Select feild is breaking code Flask WTF

David GonzalezWhat i am doing is uploading a file and saving it locally. However when i add a select field to Form fields. Then it stops working. Below is a working example but when i comment out the select field the code breaks. here some the docs http://flask-wtf.readthedocs.io/en/latest/form.html and exam...

 
4:32 AM
Cbg all
I have a soft question
Anyone here happen to be a c++ wizard?
 
@gowrath I will answer that question after you answer this question: "does this room look like it is the C++ room?"
 
No but that is part of the point
 
well, I am not. I can program in C++ but I am not Bjarne.
 
Would you say you use c++ over python regularly? If so what for
 
no
never
C++ is horrible
 
4:46 AM
I've touched c++ once in my professional career
it lasted one week
then quickly went on to another project
 
It is really hard to put programming languages in order of preference, but my list ends with C++, PHP
 
If I want to write functional code, if I am writing a function to validate the data and the validation is successful, would it be wrong to return the actual data from it, so that I can compose/chain the function?
 
yes
order of decreasing preference
@thefourtheye no, but...
 
def validate_number(number):
    if 0 < number < 10:
        return number
    raise Exception("Number not in Range")

validate_number(5)
validate_number(15)
since the name is validate_number, people might not expect it to return anything...
 
hmm...I think the fact that the method is called validate, I would expect bool as return
 
4:49 AM
ya, or that
 
why?
it isn't "is_valid_number" either
 
that is true
however, validate_number is a bit ambiguous
is_number_in_range
number_in_range
validate_number_range
that last one seems a bit weak..
 
Basically the function just does validation
I am not sure if returning the data back from it is good or bad...
I was refactoring some old code, and I was trying to write it completely with functional ideas
a function like this got me thinking for quite some time now :-/
 
you're starting to make me think about it too now
it's contagious
kill it before it spreads
 
Going through pure functional language documents
lol
 
4:57 AM
you should have callback style
code asaync
async
 
This doesn't do anything async :(
 
 
2 hours later…
6:39 AM
@randomhopeful I didn't exactly say that Zed had changed his mind about Python 3, just that there was a Python 3 version of LPTHW in the pipeline. And that while I didn't have great expectations for it, I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. But now I see that he's still as anti-Python 3 as ever.
He claims that nobody uses Python 3, but (as I've said before) I reckon his anti-Py3 stance has had an impact on the uptake of Python 3. :(
I guess it's apropos to link a couple more of my old anti-LPTHW posts...
May 3 at 16:44, by PM 2Ring
@tristan What he said. It's not just the steep learning curve, or the gaps in explanation, or poor ordering of the material. So many LPTHW students seem to pick up weird misconceptio ns about Python and about how programming works. True, that could be simply due to them being poor students, except that there's a consistency to the weirdness. I reckon I can often pick a LPTHW "victim" from the vibe of the question, the OP doesn't need to mention it by name.
Jan 23 at 10:09, by PM 2Ring
@AnttiHaapala LPTHW should be called "Let's sabotage Python newbies `cause I love Ruby"
 
6:58 AM
cabbage
 
7:25 AM
Too Broad Trie Tree match string containing ? and * - Lin Ma‎ - 2016-09-30 06:55:31Z
 
@randomhopeful @PM2Ring the biggest problem is the number of people recommending that as a good learning resource...
he really doesn't teach how is right... only "this is wrong"
 
Agreed. If LPTHW was just some obscure thing we could mostly ignore it. But because it's popular it does a lot of damage. On that note:
Jan 23 at 9:35, by PM 2Ring
Oh-oh. Another person who thinks LPTHW is some kind of official Python primer. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/34961779/exercise-13-parameters-unpacking-var‌​iables-totally-lost
 
the book is the single worst python book I've seen...
and the fact that is the single most popular newbie programming resource, even more popular than the official python tutorial, is what worries me
the Learn Python The Hard Way should be called "Learn Python the painful way by eventually realizing that you should have ignored everything that Zed A. Shaw had said".
Perhaps room 6 should write a book called "Learn Python 3 the easy way"
 
7:48 AM
"Learn Python 3 : it will be as easy or hard as you find it"
The zen guide.
 
Learn Python The "What Doesn't Kill You Makes You Stronger" Way?
and cbg
 
@IljaEverilä so did you read the python 3 version yet :P
@IljaEverilä also, what are the lunch plans?
 
I tried reading it some, but got distracted
Dunno, I'm guessing burgers or some such
And beer :)
 
but no talk yet
 
No, Janne is not here yet
 
8:41 AM
@AnttiHaapala lol he doesn't recommend Python 3 to beginners because of problems with the 2to3 tool? I'm sure that'll be a big issue for them!
 
@RobertGrant yes!
or, well, hey isn't that part of the problem, now that Python 3 is gaining traction, anyone using that horrible book by that even more horrible author will be hit hard by the fact that 2to3 is so bad and migrating code is hard
but then I could be wrong
 
9:06 AM
There's currently a Hot Network Question from security.SE about explaining to family members (who want you to fix their IT stuff) why you don't want them to tell you their passwords. I like the "Reversing the roles" suggestion in this answer.
 
I'll laugh here because it'd be cruel to laugh on the post itself, but here's why you don't copy your homework solution from the internet:
0
Q: How do i change my code to not include build in functions

Edwin OliveiraI've got a assignment for school with the test to make a code that checks password strength. as you cn see below i've made this code and turned it in but received it back afterwards beccause it's to convenient to use the build in function any. how can i adjust or change my program to not include ...

> I've got a assignment for school with the test to make a code that checks password strength. as you cn see below i've made this code and turned it in but received it back afterwards beccause it's to convenient to use the build in function any.
Sure, you made all that code but don't understand what any() does.
Ah, the code contains some glaring errors.
 
9:48 AM
Is that Dutch?
 
@Ffisegydd it is.
 
10:12 AM
Cbg
 
\o
 
The original question, where he got the all and any stuff is here: stackoverflow.com/questions/39756616/…
 
10:27 AM
@davidism my exact thought
 
10:56 AM
@PM2Ring @MartijnPieters ewwww
 

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