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4:28 PM
Evening Reed
 
Hi @AshtonKJ ;) Morning here...
Nice to see everybody in here again
 
@ReedCopsey ahh the joys of a geographically distributed community :P
I have come to the opinion that the hardest part of making open source software is choosing a name and logo
 
seems like it sometimes
seems like we've been working on the logo for the language forever too ;)
 
lol
evening Reed
you should have known it was opening a can of worms with that logo
 
...Which one was the can opener?
 
4:42 PM
@IsaacAbraham Oh, we knew it would be
 
@ReedCopsey is there one in specific, or are you speaking of the general community process itself?
 
Project name FLyre (Highly creative Logo: namelessinteractive.com/media/flyrelogo.png)
The project started as FHarp, but Flyre sounded better
 
Quite a few peeps here
 
hey @7sharp9
 
@7sharp9 hi @7sharp9
 
4:52 PM
Hi
 
Seems like the twitter call to arms got a couple of people onto here
 
It was a good idea.
 
I tried this morning but I failed on my phone
I stopped using irc last monday
 
SO chat on phone. Interesting idea.
 
Oh well. When my PR is merged, FSharp.org should have a link to here as well.
@7sharp9 any reason for that?
 
4:54 PM
Stopped using it for work
 
Oh. I stopped IRC ages ago. It wasn't pretty enough to keep my attention
 
@JeroldHaas The general process - logo design is typically something that causes controversy anyways - and the F# community is definitely passionate ;)
there's been a lot of things out there that suggest most new logos are disliked initially by around 80% of the people who are used to previous ones... and I believe that :p
 
@ReedCopsey I know. I'd told her beforehand it might be a struggle to gain consensus.
 
(though most tend to eventually love the new designs)
 
Features and support are what Im passionate about.
 
4:56 PM
I get sneak previews of the new revisions.
So I generally keep quiet.
 
well, there will never be complete consensus - we were actually pretty happy until the entire east asia thing happened :(
 
@ReedCopsey Is it just me, or is our industry especially bad about "who moved my cheese" stuff
???
 
Hello.
 
@ReedCopsey thats the thing where they don't like the #?
 
@pblasucci Yeah - it definitely is one of the more difficult ones, I think
 
4:57 PM
@ReedCopsey Yeah, that was a disaster! I wouldn't have thought of such a thing.
 
@user3892448 Welcome
 
@AshtonKJ It wasn't # necessarily - it was more the way the designs were, unfortunately, had enough similarity to a word in Japanese (and some other east asian cultures, too, I gather) that is very, very negative
 
@pblasucci Not just you. It's the industry. Don't touch my desk toys.
 
@pblasucci We love new tech, but don't move what we are used to or we sulk.
 
If anyone here want to lend a hand with F# features in XS just ping me, Im always eager to get better support.
 
4:58 PM
@7sharp9 Any suggestions on the best PCL profile to use for working with xamarin forms?
 
@ReedCopseyHas to be 78
or 259
 
@7sharp9 I doubt you'd get better support with me just yet. I'm still classified intermediate at this moment.
 
I used 259, but it seems like the xamarin forms PCL profiles are only shipping with 78?
at least the nuget packages
 
Yep, 259 is a subset of 78
Im probably ahead of the main builds
259 would add WinRT support I think
78 will do
 
yeah - 259 in the libs complains when it's building
 
5:00 PM
Well, its all you can use at the moment
You could probably hack it ...
Just use 78
 
okay
 
I added 259 for future use
 
do you know if 78 is one of the new options in the VS tooling in 3.1.2?
 
I think there is a project template
Theres no *real tooling for PCL in F# VS
 
they added 259 (which is awesome)
yeah - well, there's at least templates
 
5:04 PM
I wish VS added support for UI in PCL
like whats in C#
 
me too
 
I can easily do that for XS
Except project wont load in VS
 
no easy way to change the project target in VS :(
need to go make a new one and compare/hack it apart to fix it
 
Ill probably add it to XS soon with a note explaining what to do if you want to load it in VS
Essentially, remove a projecttypeguid from the fsproj
*projecttypeguid
 
yeah - just need to figure out which :) shouldn't be too tough, though
 
5:08 PM
as offtopic as it gets - i just had to run around trying to chase 3 goats back into the fenced area
 
I'm not sure we want to hear about you and your goats :p
(j/k)
 
When I initially added it, the first thing someone tried was loading it in VS
 
WebSharper.Piglets needs a new version WebSharper.Goaties :)
 
@ReedCopsey Thats why I pulled the feature
Hey @FrankKrueger I thought you were adding some new shinny bits to the F# addin?
;)
 
@7sharp9 With my ample free time. ;-)
I am working on an update to iCircuit
Once that's out I'll be back to F#
 
5:13 PM
:) I started on the sorted completion lists ...
Then ran out of time
 
@7sharp9 OMG I need that haha
These APIs love inheritance
 
Inheritance is the base class of all evil.
9
 
@ReedCopsey - about databinding (as in WebSharper.UI.Next vs other approaches), after thinking / discussing it a little more, I think the situation is pretty rare where you would really need to enforce a bijection on two Var's. That's typically refactored into one a: Var and one b: View, with b = f a for some f. If you have g = f^{-1} inverse, then you can, I think, do what's needed
@ReedCopsey i'd love to discuss this more, with code samples, if/when you have time
 
@toyvo Can you edit a view directly, though?
because sometimes it's nice to have 2 "views" on a single dataset but edit it in two different ways
 
5:16 PM
@7sharp9 sexy!!
 
you can't and that's typically a feature
 
@FrankKrueger I never got to the icons
 
@7sharp9 Not sure about needing to break out the extensions. C# completions group those with the class they're extending.
Since F# makes extensions so easy and therefore common, might want to group them in too
 
Thats not even alpha, Its just sorted by base class
 
@ReidCopsey - for a minimal example, something like:
let a2b (a: A) : B = U
let b2a (b: B) : A = U

let model : Var<A> = Var.Create U

let a : View<A> = model.View
let b : View<B> = View.Map a2b a

let setA (a: A) = model.Value <- a
let setB (b: B) = model.Value <- b2a b
 
5:19 PM
@toyvo @toyvo a bijection?
 
@Maslow - right, we're talking about bijections in some kind of model/view UI context
 
never heard of a bijection =/
just coming in from blowing a teammate's mind with some F# =)
 
@7sharp9 Roger. Just can't help commenting :-)
 
bijection - when there's two funcs like a2b and b2a above, with a2b (b2a x) = x and b2a (a2b x) = x - that is, inverses of each other
what i'm trying to say, is that if you have a model where there's A state and B state and they are inter-related by a bijection, then that can be "normalized" - you really only need A to describe your state, since you can always compute B
 
@toyvo Yes - but how, from the front end, do you set both cleanly?
because you're basically doing the "binding" to a Var<A>
but if you want to allow the user to set using either option - how would you handle that?
 
5:23 PM
in the example, using setA/setB as callbacks? say in button handlers?
 
but that requires more work
take your example you posted before - but just from the front end
 
:-p
 
so you have 2 text boxes, one with lower case string and one with the upper case version of it
 
right, so your model is really one string right?
 
technically, you could edit either one, and pick a single one as the backing/storage for it - because either can be "computed" from the other
yes - so the model is one string
but I don't want to force 2 buttons (or even one) - just typing should update like your example
but typing in either
the model could be lower case - or whatever (tha'ts not really relevent)
 
5:25 PM
right
so Input API should really not accept a Var<'T>
 
is there a way to "bind" with two way conversion support?
 
it should rather be, val Input : View<string> -> (string -> unit) -> Doc
 
well - the other option is you allow converters to be specified
ie:
val Input : Var<string> -> ('a -> string) -> (string -> 'a) -> Doc
so you have a way to specify a conversion function for each direction of the binding
 
right, that seems sensible, trying
right, that'd work :)
 
that, btw - is one of the things that XAML did right - (though I don't like that it requires OO to handle it) - but the IValueConverter, and in WPF, IMultiValueConverter, support is what makes the binding really nice
adding that provides a HUGE amount of flexibility
 
5:30 PM
the val Input : View<string> -> (string -> unit) -> Doc would be just a tad more general since frequently actual Var's would be hidden behind some abstract types that restrict ways in which they can be edited
 
basically force a callback when an input is run?
the advantage of the converter approach is that your converter funcs become reusable
where callbacks need a new one each time you bind
 
jas, tinkering
 
so - with XAML - what you end up with, over time, is a library of converters - that can be used all over the place
so binding becomes very flexible
 
let U<'T> = Unchecked.defaultof<'T>

type Doc = class end
type View<'T> = class end
type Var<'T> =
abstract View : View<'T>
abstract Value : 'T with get, set

module View =
let Map (f: 'A -> 'B) (view: View<'A>) : View<'B> = U

module Var =
let Create (x: 'T) : Var<'T> = U

let Input0 (view: View<string>) (set: string -> unit) : Doc = U

let Input (var: Var<'a>) (f: 'a -> string) (g: string -> 'a) : Doc =
Input0 (View.Map f var.View) (fun va -> var.Value <- g va)
so at least mechanically, Input0 is a little more general than Input as it can be expressed in terms of the other
but I hear you, defining bijections is more fun than handling events
let me look up the IMultiValueConverter & friends
 
IMultiValueConverter is basically a way to have a single input bound to >1 "Var" (in your terms)
where the converter maps one UI element "value" -> vars and vice versa
 
5:42 PM
quite curious
so the WPF model assumes you have "denormalized" state i guess. So you start with two components that have "separate" state, and then specify a binding that makes it work as if they shared the state
 
@ReedCopsey Do you use multivalueconverter much? I don't, dunno why.
 
with multi bindings?
@JohanLarsson No - it's rare - but when you need them, they really come in handy
 
@ReedCopsey right, from the little I could tell at quickly glancing the impl?
i'll spend some more time on these WPF docs, have not really seen this before
 
Converters are both nice and ugly imo, nice re-use but kinda ugly to have code in many places.
 
5:45 PM
@toyvo I can hack a sample for you if you want
 
@toyvo It's worth investigating - the one nice thing WPF added over previous attempts at binding
is that you can bind basically anything to anything
and it's not just a control's "data" to a value
it's any property of the control to any value
so you can have the main content/data bound to your model, but also have visibility, color, and visual elements, etc, bound to values - so it's easy to have changes in state represented in style
with zero event handling
 
right, I think i get the gist of the idea, though still find C# code is a bit heavy to read :)
it sounds like a way of ad-hoc or post-factum sharing
so if libs heavily followed your example with Input, and all components were of the form Var<'A> -> Bij<'A,'B> -> ... (parameterized by Var<'A>), and sharing would be explicit, like let model = Var.Create (); comp1 model bij1 ++ comp2 model bij2
does this approximately get to the same place? Or there is more to it..
 
Does it have the equivalence of formatstrings for bindings?
 
@JohanLarsson a little sample would be very appreciated :) or a link to one
not sure i understand "formatstrings for bindings" part
 
@JohanLarsson His view example effectively gives you that
@toyvo antoher option in WPF's binding is you can (view only) bind to a value or multiple values, and specify a string format using syntax kind of like String.Format(...) to display them
 
5:54 PM
@ReedCopsey ok I don't know any web nor F# :)
 
@JohanLarsson Well, this is a new framework - so it's pretty unique anyways :)
 
right, so this is uni-directional, that should be handled by "applicative" interface on View, e.g. View.Map (fun x y z -> (x, y, z)) x <*> y <*> z
 
@toyvo I'm not 100% sure - I'd have to see an example :(
 
so, presumably, View.Map (sprintf "%i %s %O") (x: View<int>) <*> (y: View<string>) <*> (z: View<obj>)
 
@toyvo Yes - Binding.StringFormat is uni-directional, and I think you handle that well - probably better
 
5:55 PM
only WebSharper needs to implement sprintf :)
hm, IMultiValueConverter thing though seems bi-directional
 
yes
IMultiValueConverter can be bi directional
 
so that's quite curious. I will read up on that, and also on the boomerang/lenses papers - as these seem to tackle the same problem in typed functional setting
 
the converters - and the "bind to everything" - are really what makes xaml nice
it'd be awesome if you could bake in some equivalent to UI.Next
because event handling sucks
 
:)
@ReedCopsey thanks for educating me, this is helpful, I don't have direct exposure to XAML and it's nice to have a quick summary of what's useful in there
 
there's actually more than those that is useful
but those are the huge ones
right now - what you've got is more similar to how windows forms data binding worked - though a far improved version of it (at least from what I can see)
which almost nobody used because you'd end up hitting limitations too quickly
 
6:05 PM
are bindings typically introduced statically or dynamically is common? as in, do bindings change as the application runs and interacts with the user/environment
 
you can do both
but they're most often static
 
right
 
so - for example
that XAML file has bindings defined for things like the total entry
 <Entry Grid.Row="0" Grid.Column="1"
           Keyboard="Numeric"
           Placeholder="Subtotal"
           Text ="{Binding SubTotal,
                           Converter={StaticResource stringConverter}}" />
so - the Text of the entry (ie: text box in xamarin forms) is bound to SubTotal, passing through a converter shared across the document as a resource
On the ViewModel side - you have to have a property named SubTotal for it to hook into
one thing I really prefer about your approach is the type safety - one of xaml's huge weak points is that bindings are done by name/strings
 
right, okay
 
that's one place where Dmitry's WPF frameworks are pretty slick
 
6:07 PM
:)
 
so - on the "viewmodel" side - you have to have a property named SubTotal
and if you want the binding to work in both directions, the type needs to implement INotifyPropertyChanged (again, stupid strings)
 
if it's checked at compile time it's not so bad
 
there's a sample (F#) ViewModel for that view
it's not :( you get runtime binding errors
 
ah nice, so you use <@ @> to add some checking
 
though there is some tooling that can help out there - but it's imperfect
yeah - my WPF lib makes the VM side much cleaner - no magic strings - they're all generated off quotations
and properties that are based on other props can have their notifications hadnled (that's the dependent properties thing)
 
6:09 PM
right, that's seems quite practical
 
but - the nice thing - the logic is completely separate from the way its presented
and there's no "event handling" requirements
I'm working now so this exactly same ViewModel can be bound to different views for different platforms - using a single PCL lib
so it works in WPF, iOS, Android, etc
 
as soon as you start dealing with events, you end up with "view crap" mixed into your logic, and things go downhill
 
oh, there're some roadblocks there?
thanks for the samples!
 
I'm afk for a while now cos horses :)
 
6:11 PM
@toyvo roadblocks where?
 
reusing ViewModel across views/frameworks
just a bit surprising
i agree that for many things, especially maintaining equivalences, writing events code is too low-level, but don't throw the baby out with bathwater and insists on no evens/never :)
 
well, you can still do them
that's actually another thing WPF has - and the windows XAML platforms
 
for example, i'm now working on a little Hopac/CML implementation that makes event processing pretty nice and flexible, much better than doing callbacks anyway :) but yes this is frequently too low-level for many things
 
there's a way to handle events, but keep it out of your VM layer
there are times its really nice - but I like to keep that separate
 
ah, okay
 
6:14 PM
because event handling is almost always only needed to manipulate the view portions
and each platform needs different types of handling (if nothing else, the types don't match)
but usually different platforms have different contexts, etc
 
ok, let me study these samples
 
I am fairly confident that websharper can do better, btw ;) - but there's some really useful stuff you can draw inspiration from here
 
thanks. yes inventing things is not for me :) i just take what works and try to make it simple/intuitive in F#
 
that's what I've been trying to do with my xaml libs ;)
 
nice :)
 
6:36 PM
somebody else want to vote up @MichaelDaniloff 's post here so he can talk if he wants? stackoverflow.com/questions/11947301/…
;)
 
thanks :)
 
Anyone have an example of native resource management when using a recursive loop inside of MailboxProcessor? I can't seem to figure out where to put manual Dispose calls (and use is in the wrong scope)
Of course, my work-around right now is to use a while loop (so use has the right scope)... but I'd love to know if there's an alternative
 
MP is not automatically guaranteed to terminate its loop
you need a protocol that makes sure of that, it doesn't automatically happen unfortunately
 
@toyvo Ah, I see
In that case, the imperative construct is the simpler form
 
6:43 PM
something like that, or explicit Stop message
 
actually, right now, I've got shut down tied to a CancellationToken, but it's still explicit STOP from the MPs perspective
@toyvo Thanks
 
6:56 PM
a TOML type provider would be neat to have
 
@RickMinerich It seems like it'd be fairly straightforward to steal the json provider and map it across
 
Maybe even just share some structure and submit a pull request
 
7:56 PM
Has anyone here profiled FSI to see where the hot spots are?
Its very slow to start up.
By FSI I actually mean the interactive evaluation in FCS.
 
for fast startup, should make a native client written in OCaml that connects to a CLR server that's already started :)
 
8:18 PM
coming up with some contrived CML/Hopac examples, primarily to test my mini-impl for WebSharper - stream transformers as processes with input-output channel pair: gist.github.com/t0yv0/3e4fdefcbd65bb030a9c
@7sharp9 oh btw, I noticed the 32-bit fsi.exe loads faster and uses less memory than fsiAnyCPU.exe - but I won't be able to tell you why..
 
Im using FCS and the EvalInteraction API so who knows :)
@toyvo Ive played with ocaml before and it can be an exercise in frustration if you want to build arm. I find I break things all the time
I got a bare minimum iOS app but I wouldn't use it for anything *real.
 
yeah. the slow startup times are such a pain though that there should come some kind of canned tool at one point. something to chew on a bunch of DLLs and one EXE and create a native fast-startup version
 
Same goes for scala too, its quite painful.
 
i heard Microsoft is doing something like that for its app store
 
Yeah, I dont think they have plans yet for desktop though
At least the 10 people who use the app store will have fast start up ;)
 
8:29 PM
oh, lucky ones :)
 
That's the announcement for .NET Native (the precompiled store app thing)
 
8:49 PM
@7sharp9 BTW - Thanks for your help - just published the FSharp.ViewModule nuget package which works in xamarin forms :)
 
9:03 PM
great! details of NuGet may suck, but having it is wonderful compared to not having it :)
FSharp.ViewModule will work with WPF too right? so it's universal? i'll try
 
9:46 PM
@toyvo Yeah - It was originally WPF only
just got the PCL version published - and put in a demo project (just the port of a XF demo) showing usage in XF
@7sharp9 Question for you - Are there any issues with Xamarin if using a type provider defined in a PCL?
 
10:13 PM
Are we producing more transcript in Euro time?
Did you read the Greek symbol discussion Reed?
 
10:25 PM
@JohanLarsson No - what's going on with the greek symbols?
 
I think the discussion ended ~with the starred message.
In short: the question was if it is ok to use greek symbols as local variables.
If readability is worth more than the pain of typing them.
 
@ReedCopseyIm not sure I understand where the TP would sit?
 
@7sharp9 I'm looking at porting my xaml type provider from WPF to Xamarin Forms
 
The TP would have to ref the correct FS core
 
so it'd be inside of a PCL
defining types in a PCL, I mean
 
10:30 PM
As long as you only use code from the correct pcl fo FS Core
*of
You would get runtime errors otherwise
Ensure you test on a real device
You shouldn't reference any assemblies other than a nuget FSharp.Core
 
well, there shouldn't be anything used outside of fsharp.core, and a pcl lib (that references fsharp.core)
 
(Which has a pcl version etc)
 
yeah - right now, I'm using PCL259 for it
 
There are implicit reference which will be added by msbuild
 
@JohanLarsson Need to get Tao to update this: visualstudiogallery.msdn.microsoft.com/…
3
 
10:32 PM
These shouldent be directly referenced in the project
(There are currently issues where you would have to do this in XS)
I dont have time to fix those at the moment
 
what type of issues am I going to hit?
 
The type checker would report an error in the IDE, but it will build ok
So red squiggles
 
oh, okay
 
msbuild/xbuild know about the implicit pcl references
The type checker needs to be fed those too
There are two issues for this i the fsharpbinding
*in
I just dont have the time to look at anything there at the moment
 
okay - well, it may not matter for this, since the types tend to not be used in code much if at all, most of the time
so red squiggles and working may be adequate
(it's more important that the type is generated- but it tends to only get used once for loading, and often used only from other xaml)
well, I'll see what happens :S
 
10:56 PM
Reed you can pin the wiki link and remove the stars from my transcript link to the same (both in the starboard)
Can be useful for new chatters.
 
better?
 
perfect :)
spent all day writing not so much F# today
Struggled with xpath a bit also so not all F#'s fault :)
 
11:17 PM
Tough day for me too, wading through compiler stuff
 
11:28 PM
you are the Indiana Jones of the F# Community @7sharp9 , wading in the dark waters of "compiler stuff" looking for treasures
[I picture you with a hat and a whip in front of the computer now]
[sorry for lowering the discussion standards, need a break]
 
:)
You can do italics and bold strikethrough in chat. Forgot sarcastic
 
11:47 PM
@user2841584 If you answer a question (or ask them) on the main site, you'll be able to chat here - unfortunately, need 20 rep
 
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