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12:01 AM
wading through compiler stuff, isn't that the pinnacle of fun?
 
 
3 hours later…
2:33 AM
re-reading Concurrent Programming in ML, very very good. Makes you want to quote from it, repeatedly
 
 
4 hours later…
6:05 AM
Morning @Taha
 
Good morning :)
 
6:23 AM
good morning
 
asdfnjañkjns morning
 
6:36 AM
Morning all.
How is everyone this fine morning?
 
@Mathias Ha, the compiler is a very dangerous place :)
Hi all
 
@7sharp9 Morning Dave
Question: When doing an F# project with web bits, do others still do their views project as a C# project?
Also: Why have we not got a version of Razor that supports F# (.FSHtml?)
 
Because nobody has wrote it
 
@7sharp9 Fair enough
I just think it would be awesome
 
It would mean changing a few areas that currently uses partial classes
 
6:42 AM
@7sharp9 ahhh. I didn't think of that
 
e.g. the razor codecom stuff
 
Is there any of the team that works on the F# Project Scaffold on today?
I am trying to understand the choice of NUnit over XUnit
 
NUnit is more supported I suppose
XUnit wont be available inside XS until later in the year
Theres a GSOC project to add it I think
 
@7sharp9 GSOC?
 
Google Summer Of Code
 
6:53 AM
Ahhh. Sorry, still kinda new to the whole open source thing. I want to get more involved, but still suffer from severe imposter syndrome. :(
I am only now getting comfortable sharing F# code
 
Sitting on chats like this helps, when I see the people I look up to asking questions I don't feel as stupid :P
 
Nobody knows everything
I certainly only know a tiny fragment
Really tiny
 
Yeah, but it's nice to see. I find the F# community to be the most supportive I have been involved in. Always felt kind of looked down upon in the C# one
But then again, that was probably just my own insecurity sabotaging me
 
I never saw a C# community
Is there one :-p
I find theres a split in F# between Windows and other platforms
Or rather, its harder to get open source contributions to the non-windows side
 
6:59 AM
@7sharp9 I would be willing to help, but I can't afford the XS licenses at the moment
 
I think this is going to change thanks to Xamarin's efforts
 
You dont need one, only if you want to do mobile deployments etc
 
Also - OS/X just feels weird coming from a Windows background.
@7sharp9 Really?
 
y
 
Hmmm. My misunderstanding then
I thought you needed it for Mono.Mac as well?
Whats your primary machine? MacBook?
 
7:01 AM
Yeah
I dont own any Windows machines anymore
 
I don't own any macs. But I have managed to get one running in a vm.
I love the sound of metal in the morning. It makes coding so much more relaxing
 
I used to use Mono on Solaris and Linux heavily - but since moving to new hardware I use Win again. With support Windows is a lot cheaper than Redhat
 
Ive never bought support
 
you never run servers - right?
 
I used to
I dont tneed any now
 
7:06 AM
@7sharp9 do you work for someone, or run your own business?
 
I have my own company but I work for Xamarin
 
@7sharp9 that explains it.
I was wondering how you managed to do so much for XS :P
Where are you based? (I wish SO would include flags over the user names so that I didn't have to wonder that) :P
 
I spend a lot of my own time on the F# addin
I took 3 months off last summer to get it in shape
Based in the UK
 
@7sharp9 ah, so 2 hours off my timezone
So it is what, 7 AM there?
Or am I backwards?
 
8:15
 
7:15 AM
Hi Loïc @Tarmil
 
Where are you based?
 
Hi @Taha!
(and everyone)
 
Ah summer there. I always forget the silly DST thing
@7sharp9 down at the bottom of Africa. :P Johannesburg, ZA
 
@AshtonKJ You can get OSS licenses for XS if you contributed to an open source project like the fsharpbinding ...
 
@7sharp9 Hmmm. What are the parameters for doing so? I mean project License, number of downloads, etc?
@7sharp9 and can you also get licenses for Non-Profit work?
I mean for a registered Non-Profit org?
 
7:21 AM
I dont know to be honest
You can for non-profits
Theres an application page on the Xamarin site
 
@7sharp9 the reason I ask is because I have some work that AA SA wants me to do (free of course).
 
Before I did work for Xamarin I used to get a license free
I believe MVP's get them free too
 
Where on Xamarin site do I got for Non-Profit work?
I seem to be blind and missing it
 
@7sharp9 thanks. I have sent them a message and will see what they say.
Essentially, AA SA wants me to do them a mobile app for their upcoming convention that would allow people to download AA shares and get convention details.
 
7:41 AM
Years ago I asked Xamarin if they would give me a license so that I could try to get F# working with iOS
 
@7sharp9 And they did?
 
Yeah, thats how F# iOS came about
 
Cool. I like what Miguel is doing with Xamarin
 
Theres some very interesting and cool stuff going on :)
 
Do you do a lot of web stuff, or mostly IOS / Android?
 
7:51 AM
I dont really do web stuff
 
Oh. Damn. I was hoping you did, so I could pick your brains about project structure :P
@Taha, I see from the F# Open Source google group you are also using MongoDB from F#. How is that working out for you?
 
great actually, MongoDB is my favorite db when working with WebSharper
 
@Taha Do you just use the C# driver, or do have you added your own serializers / formatters?
 
Just the official driver
 
@Taha Ok. So you decorate all your records with [<CLIMutable>]?
 
8:01 AM
yes
 
@Taha :( I don't like that. I wrote some custom serializers / formatters to do that for me
Rather, to enable serializing records without [<CLIMutable>]
 
@ReedCopsey So you dont support F# with Xamarin.Forms as a full F# solution?
 
@AshtonKJ there is this project github.com/tkellogg/MongoDB.FSharp
 
@Taha I took lots of inspiration from that project, and the 10geninterns one (github.com/10gen-interns/mongo-fsharp-driver-prototype), and added a bit of my own flavour. It can be found here: github.com/ashtonkj/NamelessInteractive.FSharp/tree/master/…
 
Nice
 
8:16 AM
@AshtonKJ interesting stuff to look at - why are you not using a standard serialiser?
 
@weismat the ones that were there didn't behave the way I wanted. And I hate having to decorate my records with the CLIMutableAttribute.
Actually, my biggest gripe at the moment with F# is that it keeps autocompleting CLIMutable to CLIMutableAttribute, etc. C# autocomplete of attributes seems better
 
morning
 
@AshtonKJ this is pretty ugly - annoying
 
@weismat Thats why I wrote my own serializers. So I didn't have to look at CLIMutable
Morning Johan
 
Serialization to json works without CLIMutable, I think, pretty sure I tested it.
 
8:24 AM
@JohanLarsson depends on the serialization lib
 
ok I tried with newtonsoft
 
@JohanLarsson newer versions of JSON.net do it properly. Older versions, not so much
 
have you looked at fspickler
 
8:42 AM
@AshtonKJ and the there is me :D
 
@weismat not yet.
It's on my list of things to do
 
9:15 AM
My list is a todo/forget list
 
@JohanLarsson Thats what evernote is for :P
 
is it an online note thing?
 
@JohanLarsson yep. Works on phone too
 
ok will check it out, I'm still on dumb-phone though
The only phone I can get from work is an iPhone and I refuse to accept one :)
 
@JohanLarsson Evernote is amazing. Add ITTT and it gets even better.
 
9:19 AM
Starring that one to remember it :D
 
Hehe.
Have you checked out ITTT?
 
nope never heard of it until now, is it free?
 
Android/iPhon not much different, except Android is much more of a pain to program
 
Yeah. It's call If This Then That. It is like an internet based automation tool. So one of my recipes is If [I favourite a tweet] then [Save to Evernote]
@7sharp9 Thats why I use my windows phone :P (Actually, the only reason is for the camera)
 
I have a camera for photos, the lens in camera phones are poor
@AshtonKJ What phone is it?
 
9:23 AM
Imo the pictures taken with phones are surprisingly good, for daylight conditions I rarely bring the dlsr.
 
@7sharp9 Lumia 1020.
With the camera grip addition
 
@7sharp9 I just have this idea that Apple shall not make any money from me in any way.
 
@JohanLarsson There alright for quick snaps, you cant really control iso, therefore noisy
@JohanLarsson I have that with MS :)
 
I would like a 3Mpixel ful format high end camera.
Would be awesome with low noise & high range.
 
The lens makes a massive difference
 
9:26 AM
@7sharp9 it does. But I have been impressed with the sensor on the 1020.
 
yes very true, I have stopped using zoom lenses
 
The colours are very rich
 
I use primes, zooms, wide angle
 
(Thats how you can tell I am not america. I spell it coloUr
 
But that is also what makes phone cameras so impressive, the lens is 5mm and is abused constantly. Still manages to take decent pictures.
 
9:27 AM
@7sharp9 I have a low end DSLR, but I prefer the sensor on the Lumia. I wish I could get a cannon with the same kind of sensor :(
 
I recently got a 8-400m lens, amazing pics
Sharp as a pin, lovely bokeh
50mm prime is really nice too
 
fixed lens, tends to have really big apature
lots of light, fast shutter
small depth of field
(with the large aperture)
 
in Lounge<C++>, Jul 26 at 0:02, by StackedCrooked
> Why did America remove the u from colour? ... Because fuck u.
What camera do you have? I have a really old 20D that I have never really felt the need to upgrade. Been looking at 5D but have not found the difference in pics huge enough.
 
9:43 AM
D7000
 
Any project where signature files are used extensively? I'm looking for samples...
 
@jruizaranguren In the compiler, providedtypes.fs/i in the sample pack
Using the compiler switch to generate them is common
 
@7s
@7sharp9 thanks.
I saw in this post (blog.stermon.com/articles/2014/03/27/…) and example of defining the function signature in a signature file that is used afterwards in the implementation file.
But I'm having problems with a generic one
val timeit : ('a -> 'b) -> 'a -> 'b * int64<ms>
I suppose I can not define a function in the implementation file to be of type timeit
well, to have the same signature as the val timeit
 
@jruizaranguren looking at it now
 
oh, you need to declare your type timer in the .fs too
 
*!?@#!!!! Signature files
 
basically all the signature file does is summarize the public contents of your .fs file
but everything still needs to be in the .fs too
 
all the overhead of a .h file with none of the convenience?
sorry, I haven't used f#
 
10:43 AM
none of the mandatoriness too (if that's a word)
 
what are signature files for?
 
it's mostly useful for documenting the public API in a readable way
 
I see
thanks
 
Thank you, @Tarmil. Points are yours
 
user3841986
11:40 AM
I find the general lack of explicitly written out signatures in typical F# projects disappointing.
 
user3841986
11:58 AM
Signatures are the primary artifact I use for thinking about the designs of my programs and, when programming, I generally start by drafting signatures for the concepts I want to represent in m programs. Then I keep refining those signatures as I proceed through writing the actual implementation.
 
@Vesa.A.J.K I don't really use signature files, but define signatures (particularly type signatures for commonly used functions) as a convenience to help my thinking.
 
I rarely use signatures, the tooling around them is generally poor
By signatures I mean fsi files
 
Pet peeve: Corportate policies that force changing passwords once a month :(
 
fsi files are mainly used to dump the xmldoc in and so publisise the public API. e.g. removing visible methods/ types.
 
@Vesa.A.J.K @AshtonKJ A couple of weeks ago I found great that F# was so concise and all that type inference stuff... Then, being F# type system so picky, I have started to define more and more signatures explicitly. Today I start to find annoying that F# code seems to be more abstract and flexible than really is.
(just for a particular domain problem)
 
12:13 PM
@jruizaranguren I don't really find that problem. I think maybe my use just tends to go more along the "happy path"
 
user3841986
Yes. Compared to other major ML-languages, F# has the weakest support for signatures, which is probably why the use of signatures is less common in F#.
 
@AshtonKJ probably is a temporary cry. When I finish all dirty reflection plumbing in order to support the model I will be happy again.
 
@jruizaranguren I think Scott W wrote about it. Speaking about following intelligent defaults.
 
link?
 
@jruizaranguren I need to find it.
@jruizaranguren can't remember if it was a blog post or video. (Don't even remember if it was scott w)
Hmmm, can't find it. It might have been Simon Cousins, but his old blog was wiped
 
12:25 PM
That reminds me I still need to re publish my old blog
 
@7sharp9 I need to add more to my blog :P
 
Me too
 
@7sharp9 Still need to finish the second part of my one series
 
People keep asking for a Xamarin.Forms follow up post
I have two or three half finished ones on type providers
 
@7sharp9 I want to play with some TP stuff. But I keep being distracted with other projects
And work
Work is a constant distraction from programming
 
12:30 PM
I get to mix both
 
Technically so do I. But work keeps trying to make me a manager
 
for doc generation, FSharp.Formatting does not seem to be able to take .fsi as input? That'd be pretty helpful. I typically write .fsi files and documentation for public API in there.
 
If they have to make you then they have already failed :)
 
@toyvo hmmm. I am playing with FSharp.Formatting at the moment. My biggest issue is the speed.
 
FSharp.Formatting is pretty biased towards windows too
 
12:32 PM
@7sharp9 Yes. Can't they see that I became a programmer to avoid people
2
 
y. on latest project i gave up on doc tooling and simply wrote docs by hand on GitHub. github.com/intellifactory/websharper.ui.next/blob/master/docs/… - quite painstaking, but at least easy to view/edit
 
If I could hold all my meetings via IM I would
 
@AshtonKJ Most of mine do
emails and skype occasionally
 
@7sharp9 Jealous
 
Working from home is amazing
I hate travel
 
12:34 PM
@7sharp9 I can work from home sometimes. I would prefer to do it more.
Speaking of travel, i'm off home. Will be back soon
 
MathNet.Numerics.FSharp is NET40+ only?
 
Would you be using anything before .Net40?
 
@jruizaranguren you have a use case for .Net 3.5?
 
sadly
 
.Net 3.5 is 7 years old
 
12:43 PM
Math.NET Numerics itself supports .Net 3.5, should be possible to make the F# extensions support it as well (provided F# 3 supports .Net 3.5, never tried that combo)
 
The documentation is ambigous about this.
 
@ChristophRüegg It does but you would have to ensure you use FSharp.Core from 3.5
 
No problem with MN numerics and F# for .Net35
But can't find MathNet.Numerics.FSharp for NET35
 
@jruizaranguren There is none officially, we currently only package the F# extensions for .Net 4 and two PCL profiles
might be possible to support it though
 
@ChristophRüeggWhich PCL's?
 
12:47 PM
I have a lot of experience in porting C# NET40 -> NET35 libraries and it use to be easy (NET40 changes are overrated :), but haven't done in F#. Theoretically it should be easier, given that the language itself support both platforms.
 
@7sharp9 47 and 344 (same as the main package). I suspect we should change them to 78 and 259 for the F# package, which seems to be properly supported in mono as well (thanks to you irc)?
 
I campaigned for them for ages, it required MS to make a compiler fix to decouple System.Runtime.Interop references
 
FSharp adds another layer of insanity, with 4.0.0.0, 4.3.0.0, 4.3.1.0, etc..
 
It was always references, even though its not included in those PCL libs
@toyvo And the pcl versions!
 
@7sharp9 thanks a lot for that!
 
12:58 PM
i haven't looked at PCL much, but the little i saw was very ironic.. When I read PCL, I expect - oh wow, no more of this hell, compile one lib and run anywhere. What I find instead, is a gamut of 30 more configurations.. It seems like it adds to the problem it set out to solve :)
 
@toyvo We actually have: 4.0.0.0
4.3.0.0
4.3.1.0
2.3.1.0
2.3.5.1
2.3.98.1
2.3.98.1
3.3.1.0
3.78.3.1
3.259.3.1
@toyvo Actually now thats theres fairly stable nuget it makes it relatively easy
 
@7sharp9 do you know whether "advanced" PCL packages work on non-win Mono/Xamarin with F# (that do not actually contain portable binaries but full binaries for each platform covered by the profile)?
 
@ChristophRüegg I dont understand what you mean by that
 
oh okay. i have not dealt with it lately, so it still seems pretty confusing. It would be really nice to put up some reference documentation on these versions and constraints they imply, somewhere like fsharp.org
 
I think yes.
@ChristophRüegg ^
 
Interesting read, onnly skimmed
The FSharp.Core is written so most things have alternates when a feature is missing
But some things are missing
Like BigInt
in profile 78 I dont think thats there
No reflection emit
 
no emit in FSharp?
 
Its not implemented to do nothing for an emit call
 
silence! I keel u!
 
@Maslow Not in PCL78
 
1:09 PM
PCL-78 also does not include System.Numerics if I remember correctly
 
y
 
that's the PortableClassLibrary version of FSharp, right? not the mainstream.
 
@Maslow The PCL version of FSharp.Core.dll
 
which is short for PortableClassLibrary, right?
 
@ChristophRüegg so with that article, it claims no code will ever run the PCL assembly, it uses <null> to implement a static method, so what's the point of PCL library even existing? It seems like a public signature for platform-specific libs, but the tooling does not actually /check/ that the platform-specific libs conform to it?
 
1:10 PM
Specifically 7,47,78,259,monotouch
 
so there is a non-PCL version of the currently being discussed assembly, right?
 
@toyvo Its kind of to ensure you can bind to a dll but it might not do anything
rather than fail at runtime
 
@toyvo I guess the tooling woud still use the PCL library of such a NuGet package if the project using it is itself a PCL project
 
@Maslow Yes from .Net 2.0 onwards
 
but this - return default(Task<IBitmap>); - this would fail at runtime if called..
 
1:13 PM
@7sharp9 k, I know about PCL's in .net in general, was trying to confirm you guys were talking about .net PCL's and not something special to F# that happened to have the same acronym, or that there was not a non-PCL version of.
 
to me it seems this approach is subsituting build/package tricks for proper parametricity in the language, e.g. you could have code written paramerized over IBitmapLoader..
 
@toyvo failing at runtime is a best practice
=(
 
yeah, shoot me..
 
I once worked on a team where there were virtual methods that would throw at runtime if you hadn't overridden them in your derived class. it was awesome
@AshtonKJ did you mean IFTTT ?
 
Thats what I meant
 
1:18 PM
@toyvo aren't PCL profiles themselves a sort of build/packaging trick? One could argue this would remove some of these tricks and get rid of all the PCL limitations by building proper full platform assemblies only
But of course you'd need to maintain the code base for all these platforms and keep it in sync, which can be a lot of work (compared to a well-architected PCL library)
 
just seems if you provide full platform assemblies only, and PCL assembly is never run, you might as well not provide the PCL assembly, or how is it ever used?
right - there's a lot of work there one way or the other :)
 
@toyvo It can still be referenced by other PCL libraries
(on a package level)
 
and those libraries, when used, will use a platform-specific version
ah, i think i see now. thanks
 
yes
(I've never used it)
 
yeah that makes some sense now. it's a poor-man signature/functor approach :)
 
1:37 PM
ever wanted to clean all the functionality off a page to focus on the UI/css? well here's an FSharp script to do just that via LinqPad. (requires you copy as html the rendered page into your clipboard and update the base url) github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/config/blob/master/…
 
2:12 PM
@toyvo Never hestiate to ask for wpf samples or ask questions about them. This is a room dedicated to wpf
 
@JohanLarsson thanks! :) I looked and run the samples, sounds like this style of programming is relatively easy to accommodate with our WebSharper UI.Next, except we'll give a little more emphasis to bi-directional bindings (by adding some simple first-class values to describe/reuse those)
i'll post the TipChat/TextBox copy samples with UI.Next combinators a bit later
 
Ok I'm not gonna be able to read them :) (I don't know web nor F#)
Plan is to play around with websharper a bit for fun the coming weeks.
 
oh, i'm really hoping you will understand it :) we try to minimize the cognitive overhead, but of course there're some stumbling blocks, even F# syntax is a bit of a problem at first.
f x for f(x) etc
 
2:28 PM
ok I can ask dumb questions when chat is idle. I have not used F# many days.
 
sure. asking qns can save a lot of time.. as i just found out when asking about WPF :)
 
<- akf
 
2:40 PM
@toyvo I'm good with F#, haven't been able to get over the hump of websharper F# yet =(
 
@Maslow i'm happy to help if at any time you decide to give it more time
 
I absolutely will next time I catch you in here, or maybe Reed (and I'm at home where I can try it =)
@toyvo the main issue I was having was trying to modularize the sample. Getting the part that writes javascript, the part that defines what views there are, and the part that actually defines the views into their own files or modules.
so that I could start expanding via files not blowing out a single file with tons of stuff
 
right. it's probably going to be the easiest to discuss with the actual sample once you dig that up
 
k
 
right.
afaik C# is a little better with many files than F# :) but it's possible
 
2:44 PM
I don't imagine you are related, but what's up with the FPish certificate?
 
oh, trouble with FPish?
 
I just like separation of concerns. doing things in a distinct place
 
right
 
on cloudsharper, when I click login with FPish, I get warnings like crazy on site cert
The site's security certificate is not trusted!
 
ugh, thanks! I'll pass it on to our CS team
can you accept the self-signed cert? does the browser give you an option? or it's just impossible? we can test this too i guess
 
2:47 PM
@toyvo it is amazingly awesome to have someone in the F# chatroom from cloud/web sharper =)
 
i guess optimally IntelliFactory would just buy a proper cert :) but that probably won't happen until CS goes out, as in reaching 1.0..
 
that's what I get when I proceed in the bar
so I imagine I could proceed just fine
 
hi @user389
 
I was wondering. Is it possible to use WebSharper without Visual Studio or MonoDevelop?
I can't find any documentation on how to do that.
 
2:56 PM
What were you wanting to use as your editor? Emacs?
 
Emacs has a fsharpbinding library. Are you using that?
 
I could get this to build: pastebin.com/FmbY6Avm and running produces no output.
 
so you have a working F# setup with Emacs?
 
Only syntax highlighting. :P
 
2:58 PM
yeah, well good enough i guess :)
 
I invoked the compiler like this:
$ fsharpc main.fs $(for f in WebSharper.2.5.119.54/tools/net40/*.dll; echo "--reference:$f") --noframework
 
the VS/MD stuff just gives templates that initialize projects, and MSBuild has logic to invoke both FSC and WebSharper.exe compilers with proper flags
so i guess one way to work would be to just run xbuild
 
Oh there's WebSharper.exe. I see.
Didn't notice there were non-DLLs. :P
 
but you could, presumably, call websharper.exe from a makefile.. or via API from an F# script. This is not a road that's frequently taken :)
so some things are probably bumpy. but we can fix it up, it should be possible
yes, so typically you first run fsc, and then you run websharper.exe (or WebSharper compiler API via MSBuild/XBuild or from build script) on the output of FSC
 
% mono WebSharper.2.5.119.54/tools/net40/WebSharper.exe main.dll out.dll
Main: error: Failed to translate a method call: Log(..) [IntelliFactory.WebSharper.JavaScript].
Compilation failed in 0.2302454 seconds.
woohoo :D
 
3:03 PM
you need to pass references to websharper.exe
iirc the syntax is the same as passing them to fsharpc
 
-r /path/to/Foo.dll
 
Ah yeah, that works.
 
and that typically includes a boatload of DLLs that ship with websharper
 
And then I should use the resulting DLL as an ASP.NET application?
Never worked with ASP.NET before so I'll have to figure that out. :P
 
kind of, depending on what you want. can do pure-html apps, or websites yes
i'm just thinking - for this kind of use case, it's perhaps simplest to have a template you can clone and use xbuild to build from Emacs. just as what XS does basically. that'd save you the trouble of spelling out -R, and doing other steps
mm, maybe a GitHub "template" repo? something you could git clone and then xbuild..
maybe even complete with a makefile :)
alternatively, something like "WebSharper.exe -scaffold site -name MySite -dir MySite/"
 
3:13 PM
that would be nice
with an option to specify whether you want a bundle, an html sitelet or a full sitelet
 
@toyvo I'll try that when I get back home. :)
Btw what happens when you have a high-order RPC function?
Like [<Rpc>] f g = g (). Because you cannot serialize functions, right?
 
right, currently can't. should be a compiler error
if there isn't a compiler error, we should fix the compiler
 
3:33 PM
@jruizaranguren fyi I've opened a ticket on a .Net 3.5 build of the F# extensions here: github.com/mathnet/mathnet-numerics/issues/243
 
just filed another issue with W# :) JavaScript array access a[i] gives undefined instead of out-of-bounds exception. Sadly W# compiles F# array access to JS array access. Might be performant but debugging this is terrible.. Get an error miles away from the source, with "foo undefined"
 
@ChristophRüegg thanks
 

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