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12:04 AM
Just trying to perceive how the distributed library works.
 
12:46 AM
So Rebol likes to name some characters. space, tab, and apparently slash. However quote is an operation, and not a quote character. How many people would miss "slash" as an alias for the character of slash if it were repurposed to something else?
 
1:23 AM
There have been several arguments for the existence of get-path! and set-path!, as opposed to :x/y just being a PATH! with a GET-WORD! in the first position and x/y: just being a PATH! with a SET-WORD! in the second position. One argument was that x/(y z): couldn't work. I think that SET-GROUP!, GET-GROUP!, SET-BLOCK!, and GET-BLOCK! have several other applications, so that would solve that point.
Another point of my own was that the evaluation shouldn't be able to change. Once you've started evaluating something as a GET-PATH!, code shouldn't be able to mutate it. That is addressed by other locking rules now, so you shouldn't be able to change the types of the first or last (or any) path elements while it's being executed.
 
2:20 AM
One argument that still exists might be called the "easy aliasing" argument...that you should without needing to copy an array itself, be able to mutate it from a setting form to a getting form. e.g. the same underlying array for the PATH! can be aliased across GET-PATH! and SET-PATH!. I don't know how necessary that operation being more efficient than a shallow COPY actually is.
As long as you can alias GROUP! as a SET-GROUP! or a GET-GROUP! it could be relatively shallow. I should point out also that GET and SET could be used on generic PATH!, which if they didn't consider GET-ting a path with a SET term at the end or SET-ting a path with a GET term at the beginning to be a problem, then you wouldn't have to worry about it.
>> x: 10
== 10

>> get quote x:
== 10
That's allowed by R3-Alpha (but not Red)
 
 
7 hours later…
9:16 AM
posted on April 25, 2017 by hostilefork

There was significant common code between PICK and POKE and the GET-PATH! and SET-PATH! operations, with minor differences between the operations that weren't clearly intentional. It is not possible to write path processing in terms of PICK and POKE such that a/b/c: d would act as poke (pick (pick a 'b) 'c) d. The reason for this is that the result of the picks is a value taken out of a p

2
 
 
3 hours later…
12:16 PM
@giuliolunati @MarkI Argh, close... I can do [a [b c]] / (second [x a]) / b and get c if / is defined as tight on the left, and soft-quoted on the right. But a trick I'd hoped to be able to wire up with :a / b acting as a get-path! can't work under that system, since for example [a [b c]] / (second [x a]) has already been evaluated, so / b is too late to left quote the evaluated expression. :-/
Put more generically, in today's formulation: left-tight-evaluative operators can chain themselves, but left quoting operators -cannot- chain themselves.
 
 
3 hours later…
3:25 PM
@HostileFork - I see you've already merged in add-repl-skin branch - github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/pull/475
So I'll create a new branch/PR for changes discussed on that thread. Is that OK?
Regarding defining the repl! object. Is there a preferred place todo this rather than inside host-start? And also the system/user part is going to get more convoluted so maybe best having its own home?
Looking around could/should this be in /src/boot/mezz ?? Perhaps sys-repl.r & sys-user.r ??
re: branch/PR - If prefer me to keep using add-repl-skin branch then just let me know.
 
4:11 PM
Feel like rebol in system/user should be in system/options as something like: system/options/scratch or similar. Not 'rebol'.
Does anyone else have system/options/current-path reversed?
>> system/options/current-path
== %c-ner/sirhC/sresU/
Incidentally, my current path is /Users/Chris
Also, what does 'Can't check for embedded code in Rebol path: /Users/Chris/ren-c' mean?
Appears first when starting Ren-C.
 
4:38 PM
@rgchris about Thema message on boot look at the issue about crash on boot above.
thema => the
 
 
1 hour later…
5:46 PM
@GrahamChiu et all
I have just ended the reconstruction of the correct r3 documentation repository from all the sources around.
It is the first time I use GitHub, so I am open to any note, suggestion, warning...
Repository is located here:
https://github.com/GiuseppeChillemi/documentation
Just note that saphirion repository had some old documentation which uses reactors (actors.mdm; layout.mdp) so I have exchanged them with the correct version.
File faces.mdp is for me uncertain which is the correct version. You will find one in:
Also I have created a "Spare" directory where old, historical and uncertain things belongs.
A last note: other than the "examples" directory I have added a "tests" directory from Robert Archives
After your check, I kindly ask @GrahamChiu and Robert to update their respective sites and repositories.
It took me some months and 2 full weeks to undestand I was not reading the correct documentation, that it was not complete and that was the reason I was not able to undestand anything and not because of my stupidity !
 
6:38 PM
From github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/pull/480 "Also file: %foo | file/1 now gives back #"f" instead of %foo/1. Given the fact that paths already treated integers differently, seems more useful to me. The form of polymorphism that PICK and pathing wants with integers seems to be indexing...so having another interpretation is weird."
Strongly disagree on this one @HostileFork, sorry man.
Many, many, MANY, in fact ALL, file systems allow numeric file names.
To have x/a be a file and x/1 be a character is not good IMO.
The polymorphism should be based on the root, not the "indexer".
3
 
@rgchris I'm not fond of system/user/rebol name either, especially if you use the alias rebol/user/rebol :(
I struggled with a good name. Tried customisation, custom-dir and variations of at different times. I was going to go with local (thinking along the lines of /usr/local on Unix) but changed it to rebol because thought it might be confused with system/locale
Not sure about scratch but I agree it should be changed to something better. Feel it might need to reference the fact its a directory? Some (new) options of top of my head: scratch-dir, local-dir, options-dir. Thoughts/ideas anyone?
...should be in system/options - If this is the better place then I can change it to this. Seems to make sense because we can easily overwrite the directory location with a command-line switch.
BTW - We may need to clarify some of this system/user & system/options. For eg. according to docs system/options/home should be set users HOME directory (rebol.com/r3/docs/concepts/scripts-options.html). However currently R3 sets this to directory-path where executable lives. I've set system/user/home to be HOME because this is what the comments in code said it should be.
 
system/options/resources
 
@rgchris I like that :)
@rgchris My current-path is OK. My commit head is 615af399c17089c68f2b14bfca88c5c3a38186e2
 
6:55 PM
Mine is: b502b2c48073d0f1b13828ddab89a674ed1c814a
Or system/options/resource-dir or resource-path
 
7:12 PM
@rgchris I have reversed current-path as well.
** Version: 2.102.0.4.2 **
** Platform: Linux libc6-2-3-x86 **
** Build: 25-Apr-2017/18:58:24 **
** Commit: b502b2c48073d0f1b13828ddab89a674ed1c814a **
@MarkI @HostileFork I'm with @MarkI on that one, %file/1 as #"f" doesn't make sense to me.
@HostileFork As can be seen from the startup message, encapped scripts are only used, when r3 is called with a full path, or from the same directory, Otherwise just the normal repl starts up.
@HostileFork Startup is a lot slower than before, does this have to do with the new repl? encap? or what?
 
7:33 PM
@rgchris These are better... but I don't know which one I prefer!
 
@HostileFork @MarkI -- I'd like if a / b for non-numerical types would act as the infix form of pick a b
 
@ingo Yes it is a lot slower at least compared to last travis binary I downloaded.
But I don't think its the REPL because that only runs when you don't provide it a script or --do ...
 
@giuliolunati There is nothing preventing / from changing its behaviour on non-numeric arguments. But I still don't like a / b being the same thing as a/b. Whitespace is supposed to be significant in this language. I'd like b of a or something like that better maybe.
 
My compiled ren/c (3014916 bytes) is a lot bigger than my last travis binary (868440 bytes) so I'm guessing that might have something todo with slowness (perhaps debug option on by default?)
 
@MarkI I agree -- but 'pick is not equivalent to path
 
7:39 PM
@giuliolunati it is if b is a number and a is not a file! :)
I mean a syntactic number, b represents a meta-variable in this example.
 
@MarkI Well, they are different things that act the same in some case.
 
@draegtun All my binaries are built with debug on, and there isn't a change in size.
 
@ingo @draegtun in Android non-debug build I'haven't noticed heavy changes in size or startup speed
@HostileFork @MarkI -- I'd like pick %a/b/c 2 => %b and pick %a/b/c %d => %a/b/c/d
 
8:43 PM
@rgchris I presume that after a period of a new release the users will report whether it's stable or not. Or you could tell us it's stable.
 
9:16 PM
@MarkI I am not attached to the feature of file: %foo | file/x => %foo/x for several reasons, both mechanical (generative form of path) and otherwise, and would rather kill that "feature" and make it an error than diverge PICK and pathing.
It's a counterintuitive concept that I didn't like (except for its potential in NewPath, which we've basically have rejected), and in the class ANY-STRING!, having some-string/1 give you the first character of the string is a higher priority. There are plenty of other ways to compose paths from parts using normal code.
So I'm okay with some-string/x being an error, e.g. you can't pick a word out of a string.
And you do that with make file! [some-string x] or whatever kind of constructive dialect.
@giuliolunati That's an idea which went with "NewPath", which would basically say that %a/b/c would be a PATH! of 3 elements and not a string. I wrote about it at one point. It's an idea which has merit, and would rely on the evaluative pathing of %a/b/c (path with FILE! WORD! WORD!) becoming %"a/b/c" (just a FILE!).
Despite having some merit, it would change quite a lot, the impact on URL!s would be particularly tricky...and it would ask a lot of dialect users in non-evaluative contexts to cope with unweildy PATH!s
In fact, I'd say that the only reason I would endorse the problematic mechanical guts of some-file/x = > %filename/x (it really helps junk up an already junky pathing mechanism) would be if we were going to buy into NewPath. Last I checked we were not.
@ingo Startup has been running significantly more Rebol code with time, I noticed the tick counts getting much higher before running the first expression. I'll investigate.
@draegtun You can PR changes on an individual basis or in a batch, as you see fit. We're willing to work with experiments and fixing things when they break, for now.
@MarkI "There is nothing preventing / from changing its behaviour on non-numeric arguments. But I still don't like a / b being the same thing as a/b. Whitespace is supposed to be significant in this language." Uh, the whitespace is significant, it's 3 WORD! values vs. 1 PATH! value of 2 items. I think you're confusing "whitespace should be significant" with "the language should be wantonly irregular at all times"
 
9:53 PM
If for any numeric foo / bar, the / operator still acts as it historically did, and if 1/2 can be 0.5, then I don't see an a priori reason why one could not choose for / to act as a more generic pathing operator than "I only divide". I DEFINITELY don't see a good reason to not be curious about the findings of what can and cannot be done in flexing the muscles of the system to do it.
Ren-C's expressive power continues to grow, and in general it has not been at the cost of any beloved Rebol features. I'm not sure how particularly beloved the file-pathing-makes-composite-file feature is, and that uncertainty led me to not kill it. But it's to my tastes very abnormal to not see an irregularity like foo: [a 1 b c] | foo/b => c | foo/1 => a and be unwilling to imagine that integers have an overriding "indexing" behavior in other cases.
 
10:18 PM
@ingo ^-- see above, e.g. saying "files can have numeric names" is very much analogous to saying "blocks can have integers you want to select the thing after", and I would say the latter is probably much more common as a quirk that people would bump into in their daily lives.
I would bet more people would be confused by filename: "foo" | ... fileame/1 and then one day they learn about filenames and go "oh, that's even better" and change it to filename: %foo | ... filename/1 and their code breaks.
 
10:34 PM
The one convenience of the path notation was that it handled the slash for you: foo: %foo | foo/bar => %foo/bar | | foo: %foo/ | foo/bar => %foo/bar
Would be nice to have another way of getting that convenience.
 
11:17 PM
Nice, but it's also a behavior (a quirky one, I know the code that does it). And I've pointed out to @giuliolunati that there is something very intrinsically "global" about pathing (unless we figure something new out) where there's no "pathing operator" that you can bind differently in your module's PATH!s than others. So making what pathing does as uncontroversial and systemic as possible is a good idea.
@rgchris I don't know exactly what this would look like, but I wonder if something that took [part1 / part2 part3 / part4] where you explicitly positioned your path moments and it glued the parts together, assuming places you didn't have a / meant no slash even if it had one, might be useful.
 
11:39 PM
@MarkI The concept of "the polymorphism being based on the root" must also accept that the root may belong to a superclass, let's say an ANY-SERIES! or ANY-STRING!, and that consistency across these classes helps approach sanity.
I'll give much more credence to anyone arguing about simple truisms if that truism is then matched with the real world, e.g. how can a PORT! be both an OBJECT! and an abstract redefinable thing that can come up with its own meaning of APPEND (or whatever) when that has meaning for OBJECT!. To pretend Rebol has some kind of existing inviolable firmament is simply delusion. The job is to give it that firmament, and doing so will involve change.
I did have a concept related to this line of thought, which might have applicability, to say that FILE! is not--in fact--an ANY-STRING!. It would be its own class. But it could be aliased as a string. This would mean that to do surgery on a file, you would have to get at it through something like AS STRING!, at which point it would look like characters. But so long as it was a FILE!, it might behave in a New-Path like way in terms of reaction to path picking or joining.
Similar for PORT!, which would look like a black box that responded to certain verbs, but if you did an AS OBJECT! on it, then you'd get at its guts...so APPEND to a port when it was opaque as PORT! could act differently than the typical APPEND to that same port aliased as an OBJECT!, which would go through object's APPEND.
 

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