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12:05 AM
To concretize this: why should write %foo.txt "abc" send content to the file, but append %foo.txt "abc" give you %foo.txtabc? If we were willing to jump from the assumption that a FILE! is-a ANY-STRING! to instead treating it as its own class which happened to be easy to convert to a manipulable form as a string, then we start freeing ourselves from the expectation that PICK or APPEND or any other operation need to work in a string-like way.
But I still say that having pick %blah/blah 1 and file: %blah/blah | file/1 act the same is good, which is a distinct point.
 
1:04 AM
I might argue that, pick %blah/blah.txt 1 giving you the first byte of the file, or copy/part (at %blah/blah.txt 128) 256 giving you the second 128 bytes of the file's content, has more overall coherence and value when if you want the path components--you might just say to path! %blah/blah.txt or somesuch if you wanted the pick of 2 to get you %blah.txt, or as string! %blah/blah.txt if you wanted the pick of 2 to get you #"l"
 
1:46 AM
@GiuseppeChillemi I'm just wondering what you think will happen in the long term with the r3-gui docs and source code. R3-gui only works with Saphir, and there's a version that was maintained by Atronix. But I'm not clear if any of those versions will be maintained in the future. So, it's looking like there's no long term future. And I'm not aware of any major changes that have occurred in the past 3 years. Atronix don't use the GUI but create their app directly using gobs.
 
2:22 AM
@draegtun The default build setting is make -f makefile.boot DEBUG=asserts. This will be larger than make -f makefile.boot DEBUG=none, and smaller than make -f makefile.boot DEBUG=symbols. While it's not necessary to ask everyone to run a build with symbols in it, I'd like people to have the asserts running if they can. However, if your downloads were "release" they would indeed be DEBUG=none, and thus smaller than the default you'd get.
It's okay to have one or two people running release builds just to notice if anything happens that doesn't happen in a debug build, but before reporting an issue, make sure the debug build didn't give a more informative complaint on the same scenario.
 
 
5 hours later…
7:12 AM
@MarkI You are probably right that / does not need to quote its right argument, e.g. a/b in evaluative form could be a / 'b. That way, 10 / add 1 4 can be 2 and be backwards compatible, instead of choking on add. Still, I like looking at questions of what can be done, and test the limits. It's a good thing that I do that.
 
Building GUI recursively in Red. #inception https://t.co/vpryDJYEg6
 
 
10 hours later…
4:48 PM
posted on April 26, 2017 by draegtun

Following on from #475 I've made the following changes: Created a repl! object. NB. @hostilefork - This is defined in host-start.r. If there is a preferred place then I can update in next round of REPL changes. If last expression in %repl-skin.reb is a repl! object then this will update system/repl - @zsx Here's a %repl-skin.reb example: Rebol [] ?: :help make repl!

 
 
3 hours later…
7:21 PM
@HostileFork Some interesting (if unscientific) benchmarks for you. First r3-0f831cb travis build...
$ time r3-0f831cb --do "print 1 + 1"
2

real 0m0.029s
user 0m0.024s
sys 0m0.005s
now this is what i was seeing compiling latest source...
time ./r3 --do "print 1 + 1"
2

real 0m0.322s
user 0m0.308s
sys 0m0.005s
Quite a bit slower :( But good news is using DEBUG=none brings me back to travis build speed :)
time ./r3 --do "print 1 + 1"
2

real 0m0.024s
user 0m0.019s
sys 0m0.004s
@ingo Made a big difference for me! (see above)
For those interested below are similar (unscientific!) start-up times for Perl, Python & Ruby....
'''
$ time perl -e "print 1 + 1"
2
real 0m0.026s
user 0m0.001s
sys 0m0.004s

$ time python -c "print 1 + 1"
2

real 0m0.268s
user 0m0.012s
sys 0m0.039s

$ time ruby -e "puts 1 + 1"
2

real 0m0.257s
user 0m0.021s
sys 0m0.051s
'''
 
7:54 PM
@draegtun I'm looking at some callgrind stats and seeing what's happening w/the debug build, it should be slower but it shouldn't be an order of magnitude...
 
@GrahamChiu I have spent a lot of time having great confusion because every repository/site had different and uncorrect documentation.
REBOL3 is an usable project, R3GUI to, it is also being bugfixed by Atronix: https://github.com/zsx/r3-gui.
New programmers which want to use REBOL3 should find something usable and the creation of the new repository, and asking everyone with the wrong documentation to help, deleting/refreshing it, is my very small contribution to REBOL3.
In the long term I see all together again in a great and STRONG community having 1 or 2 solid languages.
 
@GiuseppeChillemi Rebol has had many foundational problems. I often have cited if-not: func [condition body] [if not condition body], and the problems such a construct would have if you write if-not x [return 10]. Ren-C has been a research lab for these questions, and has an answer to that particular one. But there are many other questions.
Red has chosen to ignore the large repository of unresolved issues, and avoided foundational designs of its own (e.g. putting off GC "until later" while writing a lot of code which presumably should be influenced by GC), in order to pursue the creation of a GUI.
It is my impression that nearly all the remaining Rebol-land stakeholders who are truly passionate about aspects of the various iterations of Rebol GUIs are giving that input to Red. So if there is any benefit to their approach to work (with which I foundationally disagree) it should be that the best ideas are brought together and documented as the end result of the GUI that people want.
If it turns out the world is truly clamoring for that GUI dialect, and it gets a foothold, and is well-defined then I see no reason not to treat it as a spec and implement it. I would not personally ever implement native cross-platform code by hand with a skeleton crew, and would use an existing toolkit like Qt or Juce
All I've actually observed of the GUI dialect examples I've seen is that they're simplistic... good for doing easy things and bad for building applications people would care about. The code is hard to read and extend, the programming model largely naive.
But, to be fair, I'm not the biggest fan of QML either.
But I'd definitely take a good hard look at what the design of any Rebol-land GUI had over a direct Rebolized clone of QML before implementing the Rebol-land design.
 
8:40 PM
@GiuseppeChillemi To summarize: please take any and all good ideas to the Red team and let them be the research and documentation lab for this mythical great Rebol GUI. If you have taken a great idea to them and they reject it (which would hardly surprise me) or if you notice a fundamental flaw in what they are doing (also, unsurprising), write up what that is, so the ideal GUI dialect may be understood as a delta from what they're doing.
Atronix uses nearly all custom code, and their interest in Rebol is pretty much entirely for expressing process and industrial automation logic. The GUI is something they've had to work around to get the effect they want, and largely abandoned.
 
8:57 PM
@HostileFork Until 2 weeks ago REBOL3 and R3-GUI and MUNGE were the only way to obtain and display data from my company SQLServer DB.
Now that MUNGE has been ported to RED I have an alternative but until then there were nothing usable for this scenario.
R3GUI were really important form me and for anyone else needing to display data.
I like the work you are doing but I need something usable with the tools I need. It's not my role, nor my skill discussing about language design flaw.
 
@GiuseppeChillemi Do you think Red is at a stage where you can use it for what you need to do?
 
@HostileFork, I don't know. I am concentrating my efforts into having results from R3, R3GUI and MUNGE for R3. I have some priorities in my company.
Later I will take a look at RED.
 
@GiuseppeChillemi Well, if you know the history of Ren-C, what it started from was an extraction of all the non-GUI features from the Atronix repository...split out and attended to, in the hopes that it would be re-fused some day. But that re-fusion may not bring back R3-GUI. DELECT is gone, as Atronix did not use it, for example. (Not to say what DELECT did would be hard to put together in usermode)
@GiuseppeChillemi Have you seen Ren Garden?
 
9:29 PM
I do want anyone who has a vested interest in there being a Rebol GUI to look at Qt Quick. Watch the videos, try the examples. Explain to me what the missing features would be if that were bridged to Ren-C instead of R3-GUI.
I would prefer it, because it's already documented...proven...and deployed to Mac, Linux, Windows, Android and iPhone
 
9:42 PM
@draegtun @ingo Note: please don't stop running DEBUG=asserts builds, let me address the issue and figure out what's slowing things down so much. Not running builds with asserts on drastically reduces the feedback we get about possible problems.
 

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