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2:19 AM
posted on April 21, 2015 by andregarzia

[Reddit] Hey Friends, I want to know if red is a viable alternative to REBOL/core. Thanks

 
2:32 AM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
** Syntax error: invalid "word-lit" -- "'"
** Where: to case load do either either either -apply-
** Near: (line 1) '/0/a/b

>>
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
** Syntax error: invalid "word-lit" -- "'"
** Where: to case load do either either either -apply-
** Near: (line 1) '/0/a/b

>>
 
@MarkI How goes tcc these days? I got caught up in life stuff for a few days
 
Well, it's going better than my communication skills with poor Rebolbot!
 
I am still (im)patiently awaiting the pull requests from @MarkI and @HostileFork
 
@kealist I am aware the pressure's on, currently trying to get git working.
 
@MarkI questions? I've stumbled through git fairly often in the last year
 
2:35 AM
@kealist Wresting with another stupid windows permission thing, thanks anyway, will ask if have real question.
>> [#[lit-path! [/0 a b]]]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
** Syntax error: invalid "word-lit" -- "'"
** Where: to case load do either either either -apply-
** Near: (line 1) ['/0/a/b]

>>
 
She does some kind of double-scan that I can't figure out.
 
@MarkI is this a rebol vs. rebolsource build issue?
 
@kealist Don't know, I should have source diffs at hand ...
 
Or just try here
 
2:38 AM
No, it shouldn't be, l-scan.c is unchanged.
 
Yeah, it works there, so @RebolBot is messing with your execution
 
@kealist Beat me to it :) JUST
Maybe she's sensitive ... and values that don't loadably mold are curse words ... !
I can probably wrap it up in a do-string though! Let's see:
>> do {#[lit-path! [/0 a b]]}
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== /0/a/b
 
There it is ... just doesn't have the same oomph though.
I was trying to point out that we already have issue-paths and refinement-paths in Rebol 3, sort of.
They're not scannable directly, of course.
Also, there will be plenty of excitement here before I start lodging any pull requests, if that is the right term.
The actual bugs should be the mostly boring part, there's only around 60 of them though.
I can warm you up if you like: what is the reaction going to be when my first change to l-scan.c is to replace all tabs with spaces?
I just realized - I think that's my first post where I am actually hoping for crickets!
 
2:53 AM
@MarkI I'm planning on switching to spaces, but the first commits will be done as tabs before "the great turning away".
 
@HostileFork Thanks for the support, I agree with your choice as well, but in my case it's just too hard to talk about the other bugs without fixing that first.
 
And after that, there will be part of the continuation integration as a test that ensures the source has no tabs in it.
@MarkI In the source, work with it how you need to...then just run a conversion before checkin.
In terms of the non-standards-ness... Rebol exceeds the string literal length with the generated Native_Specs. It's 41954 on my machine, while ANSI C only guarantees 509 bytes for string literals.
 
@HostileFork How can you trust your conversion? Just curious how you do it.
@HostileFork Doesn't C have byte arrays?
 
@MarkI Generally in Sublime Text I just set the tab size and whatever it does I trust it. :-/
@MarkI Hm, yup. Is there no limit on how large a literal initialization you can use on them?
 
@HostileFork Some implementation limit, should be big enough though.
 
3:22 AM
>> forall [x y] "abcd" [print [x y]]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-expect-arg.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: forall does not allow block! for its 'word argument
** Where:
** Near: try load/all join %/users/try-REBOL/data/ system/script/args...
 
Seems to me that would be nice to print out ab and then cd.
@kealist I'm not sure what the timeline is exactly, nor if it will really be a pull request. Logistics are up in the air. I'm currently going ahead and getting Rebol to build under a C++ compiler to throw in a bit more lockdown with stronger type checks under #ifdef __cplusplus.
And making other changes that just need to happen. REBYTE is misguided as a signed char; it offers no benefit to second guess and a lot of hassles. char in C is signed, and of all the battles to be picking that's not one with any benefit. All it does is trip up the codebase so that if you try to get stronger type checking you wind up casting everywhere for no benefit.
Oh, oops, the above does work... if you use foreach instead of mistyping and getting forall! What did I say about those names?!
Bad, bad, easy to mix up
 
4:01 AM
Everyone, be happy! I have decided that all string types should be allowed to have zero-length "values".
Unfortunately, for some I think, my vote would be that the literal form for zero length tags should be #[tag! ""].
I think op-words deserve to be in Rebol, and that this is a bearable price to pay for that.
 
@MarkI While all strings should be legal, as in word forms, only some will have "natural" forms.
Not being able to make an empty tag "easily" is a little sad, if you're going to construct one. It would kind of suck if you couldn't make empty strings. And with @earl's proposed change of copying literals we really are looking at a situation where block: [] is a fine substitute for block: make block! 10 (or whatever other random number you have to pick to "work around" the literal-isn't-copied debacle")
Which to me, points to the desirability of <> as "empty tag". But that can be a long term goal, and it can just be an error for a while until people get cured of using it for not-equal
 
@HostileFork For that matter, I've always wondered why tags are the only delimited string type that includes the delimiter when you print it.
 
>> parse "<hello>" [<hello>]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== true
 
Because tags are odd ducks. :-)
 
4:15 AM
I mean, when you mold it, sure, put out the delimiters, just like regular strings.
@HostileFork I am going to have to think about your example a bit more. Good one!
 
While consistency can be fine and good, if a TAG! was in every way like a string with no unique character at all, it might be less useful than it could be. It can be hard to tell. I think this wave of "auditing" over some of the interesting use cases can help make it all less random and the deviations in service of clear purpose.
 
5:01 AM
Hm, f-qsort uses inline.
 
@HostileFork While I would appreciate tools for easier ŧag! manipulation, I'm not convinced that tag! shouldn't be any-string!. I feel that it would limit its functionality.
 
>> n: 0 array/initial 10 does [ n: n + 1 ]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10]
 
Is there a better way to do that without the global n?
(other than use [ n ] [ ... ])
 
There is pull request with improved array that doesn't require global variable.
 
5:13 AM
That is nice. I hope it gets merged soon :-)
 
Of course it will. As every other pull request on rebol/rebol :-P
 
5:31 AM
@rgchris
>> do %altjson.reb
Module: "JSON Parser for Rebol 3" Version: 0.3.2 Date: 26-Jun-2013
>> to-json [x: 1]
== {["set-word!!",1]}
 
@rebolek Thks, will add that to the AltJson list.
 
"Encloak" and "Decloak" are useless.
>> help cloak
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
Found these related words:
   decloak         native!   Decodes a binary string scrambled previously ...
   encloak         native!   Scrambles a binary string based on a key.
   lib             object!   [end! unset! none! logic! integer! decimal! p...
 
Why bother with low-security "scrambling"?
 
5:55 AM
Useless?
 
@rebolek There are vetted encryption standards. Putting a random one in the box is... random.
 
@HostileFork So why not to replace the algorithm? Or add more as in checksum/method?
 
Eh, just seems like something that belongs in a module
 
Hm, maybe. But unless there's such a module, it needs to stay.
 
6:37 AM
Are you kidding?
Triiiiing!! Wake up Carl! The giant is asleep and there is no telling when he will awake again. So community, this is YOUR wake-up call; time to wake up and take over control!!!
 
@rebolek Tentative version 3.3 of AltJSON—merges the reb4.me version and Scripts version. Assumes a block containing some [tag! any-type!] or some [set-word! any-type!] is an object. Only creates map! from JSON object.
 
@iArnold I've mentioned my plan. But it involves doing stuff I didn't want to do, and needs to be handled tactically. I want to build on and integrate with the "success" of RenCpp to tie together a total solution, and one that will hopefully be one that people can get behind.
 
@rgchris Thanks, I will check it.
 
Right now I'm re-working through the C++ build and the const-correctness, and that is particularly important to RenCpp to be able to build with a C++ compiler. Between being able to do that and use TCC, we should be pretty good...though it would be nice to declare another classic target to keep working.
 
@rebolek Think it makes a mess of some of the higher code points on the sample you posted, but then I think it did before too.
 
6:45 AM
If it's Amiga, then so be it. But it's not serving anyone to put handcuffs on based on the abstract belief of maintaining a build that doesn't actually work. Forget the question of whether anyone uses it or not--if it doesn't even WORK then you're not even having fun in a puzzle/thought-experiment way.
 
@rgchris I made simple custom converter for the entities, so that's not really problem for me :) But I'm going to add JSON support to Lest, so I need some tool that works (REN support would be nicer, but there's no REN loader/emitter in JS and I don't have time to write one).
 
@rebolek Actually, I think the bigger problem with that particular sample is that map! keys are not strict on case. The code points otherwise seem fine.
 
Another reason to stick with my custom parser for this particular case, as I generate parse rule block directly and don't have to deal with map! case problem.
 
>> make map! ["a" 1 "A" 2]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== make map! [
    "a" 2
]
 
7:01 AM
I guess it's still best to go with MAP! for the R3 version of AltJSON despite this limitation, for common cases this isn't so much of a problem. In this case for converting reference data, it's a big fail.
 
I wouldn't mind if map! was case-sensitive
 
I wonder if JSONP should be automatically detected?
>> do reb4.me/x/altjson.reb
load-json/padded {doThis({"key":"value"})}
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== make map! [
    key "value"
]
 
 
2 hours later…
9:35 AM
@HostileFork I improved the << rule in Lest and you can pass an integer! to it.
>> lest [ll: template [id] [li id] ul ll << 3]
== "<ul><li>1</li><li>2</li><li>3</li></ul>"
@RebolBot delete
 
 
5 hours later…
2:52 PM
https://github.com/red/red/pull/1104
GitHub
Red Pull Req—[FIX] - issue #1103 - ?? function and undefined value
Oldes
1429606338
 
3:17 PM
@HostileFork, quick question, have you noticed if binaries are always forced to have a null "termination" byte, like strings?
I have looked as hard as I can, and it looks like yes, but I'd love some confirmation, thanks.
 
3:46 PM
 
4:07 PM
@kealist I believe he means REB_BINARY, the underlying data array for BINARY!
@MarkI Think so, will let you know when I'm back at the desktop
 
@HostileFork Whoops...
@HostileFork Cool. Look forward to seeing your work whenever it is
 
 
4 hours later…
8:00 PM
@MarkI In the ever-evolving train of thought, I am finding myself not liking ^| as the newline escape, especially as I try to push | to expression-barrier status.
If anything, that might be a better replacement for tab, with ^- taking space.
At the end of the day, I'm still liking foo^-bar better than foo^_bar when you need a word with a space in it.
But that's negotiable. I'm finding ^| as newline isn't feeling as negotiable. I'd nearly go for `^\` sooner.
But backslash sure is a pain in MarkDown :-/
Anyway, the benefit of trying out new ideas is to look at them for a while and go "okay, no, that isn't so great". And I don't like ^| as newline.
In the world of punctuation, there are other options. ^. with a period being like "end of line". ^; as a more general to-be-continued.
The visual distinctness of ^/ made it a good choice except for the fact that it took newline in a space where slash had a "higher calling"
Anyway, just messing with boot code and so it's an interesting body of meta-programming source to study and look at for what is good and literate about it, and what is bad and clunky about it. I grapple with the parts that "might be pretty good showcases, except..."
@SaintCore So HighCore edits SaintCore? What about CorruptedCore? In any case, given the updated edit from higher powers I've upvoted your -1...so you should be able to chat. Takes time for reputation to propagate to servers. In the meantime, some reading on Rebol and Red... blog.hostilefork.com/why-rebol-red-parse-cool
 
@HostileFork You might want to hold off on making such decisions until you can make a proposal on how an "expression barrier" might work.
I'll give you an example, to prime your pump:
 
8:16 PM
@MarkI I'm "pleased enough" with it working as it does, by being an unset...but that's imperfect and reacts with quotes and such. But introducing an actual expression barrier as a new type is like swallowing the spider to catch the fly, now you have something that doesn't interact with anything that still is "a thing"
So I can live with the imperfect variant.
 
if add 3 multiply 4 divide 8 7 | add 7 1 [some code]
Which expression will the "barrier" refer to? How shallow/deep is it?
 
@RebolBot
|: does []
if add 3 multiply 4 divide 8 7 | add 7 1 [print "it does what it does"]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-expect-arg.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: if does not allow unset! for its true-branch argument
** Where:
** Near: try load/all join %/users/try-REBOL/data/ system/script/args...
 
Exactly :)
 
Generally you use the barrier inside an ANY or an ALL
 
8:19 PM
Stick an any after my if.
 
@RebolBot
|: does []
if any [add 3 multiply 4 divide 8 7 | add 7 1] [print "it does what it does"]
 
Suffice it to say, it only works when it doesn't work ...
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
it does what it does
 
All right, you got me there. It's still horrible though.
 
I'm pleased with it and also pleased with it taking alternative meanings in PARSE
I'm not pleased as much about incomplete quote expressions grabbing the word.
And I don't want to sell-out the pipe character to be some kind of new-UNSET!-ish literal type, because there's enough trouble with NONE! and UNSET! and knowing the difference or defining and explaining that
But the gimmicks like Graham's for double spacing expressions like if any [a? b c d e f g] [...] don't work for me
For more reasons than just "markdown and HTML collapse space", but that's another reason
 
8:23 PM
@HostileFork Of course, but I think it is a huge "gimmick" that unset! is both true and false, as far as any and all are concerned.
 
>> compose [a (if true [1]) b]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [a 1 b]
 
>> compose [a (unless true [1]) b]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [a none b]
 
And if that's all it's good for, why not actually dialect any and all and thus have no need for gimmicks?
 
8:25 PM
I did manage to convince @BrianH that was bad. But it speaks to the larger question of sorting out the "real story" on UNSET! and NONE!, because COMPOSE is willing to gloss unsets
>> compose [a (print "Hi") b]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
Hi
== [a b]
 
Exactly, the COMPOSE dialect.
 
@MarkI Maybe. I'll have to get back to you on if it's ANY and ALL's responsibility or not.
There is some blind-men-and-the-elephant stuff going on and a missing understanding of how much a dialect is responsible for vs. leveraging the interpreter, and I guess some of the critique I'd offer is that dialects haven't been pushed on enough to be as cool as they should be.
In other news, I realized that although I delved into it slightly in the past, I've never actually come close to linking a C++-built Rebol
I guess I thought I was closer than I was just by virtue of being able to get through compilation.
I now have the first-ever, I think, Rebol that can be built and linked with both C and C++
It crashes immediately, though.
 
@HostileFork Both of them?
 
@MarkI Yup, same crash, has something to do with a boot string table in the changes needed for both.
 
8:33 PM
So it properly errors out then, not crashes :)
 
Just at the start of looking at it, but it seems that there's a little batch of strings that are glommed together into a binary
"Fails boot-time check"
 
@HostileFork Yep, and if they don't uncompress, you're hosed.
 
@MarkI I simplified the decompression. Just weird stuff in there, like "oh, we can just #define a constant"... but "well, we CAN put any number in the header...but forget that, let's slipstream the size into the compressed data for some reason and then tease it out". Why not just...avoid all that?
 
@HostileFork Customer requirements? This was paid development at one point ...
 
@MarkI In the "is it just me?" department could you look at your reb-lib.h? How many functions are in there. Is it like... 3 functions (RL_Version, RL_Init, RL_Start), or do you have things like RL_Print_TOS and RL_Protect_GC in that header?
(generated file)
AFAICT there's a bug that is scraping only 3 functions out of a-lib.c
 
8:38 PM
@HostileFork I have those two, and lots of others.
 
Ok, strange, @earl can you check that too? --^
Maybe it's just me
If you disrupt a file a bit from the expectations the parse rule can fail
 
@HostileFork I ran into that too as I recall. It is not just you. That boot data uncompresses into all these babies ...
So if it doesn't, you're left hanging.
And it's uncompressed as part of r3-make make-make.r, which makes reb-lib.h, again, if I recall correctly.
Or maybe that's in make-boot.r, more likely.
I can answer better when I get back to my desk.
 
@MarkI Well, I'm discussing specifically the question of how well the sniffing of a-lib.c to make the RL_* header works. Perhaps it's just something I've done in throwing a space where it shouldn't be or whatever that explains why I only get 3 functions identified to make reb-lib.h
 
@HostileFork Understood, that is what I am talking about as well. You'll have to debug the Rebol "sniffing" code like I did ...
 
@MarkI I'll use a compiler and a debugger, vs. just reading, I think. :-)
 
8:45 PM
@HostileFork Lucky you!
 
And a GUI interface to Git...
 
@HostileFork Now you're just rubbing it in.
 
@MarkI I know you've made your command-line tastes clear, but I do like: sourcetreeapp.com
Probably not even the best for those who know how to use otherwise, but it works.
 
@HostileFork I am not in love with the command line. I am in hate with awful, bad, broken, leaky, bloated GUIs.
 
Per @kealist's remarks I thought I probably should put together a workflow video.
"Here's how I... do stuff."
 
8:47 PM
@HostileFork I have learned a lot studying how other people do stuff. It's a great idea.
 
@MarkI doesn't matter what it is, you can learn faster by watching what someone is doing...
@rebolek Hm, it's for counting? Is that a frequent need?
Rebol as-implemented is quite a grab bag of "artistic literate paradigm shift in imperative-style-programming" with "this is a mess of archaic coding methodology, KILL IT WITH FIRE!" :-/
 
9:26 PM
@HostileFork I'm often making a list here I'm accessing the DB with some ID, so yes, I need it.
 
 
1 hour later…
10:51 PM
Interesting reading infoq.com/news/2015/04/jsonnet
 
 
1 hour later…
11:57 PM
@johnk Comments aren't in JSON for a reason.
Recent irritation with Crockford aside, he did what he did with purpose.
 

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