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1:09 AM
@HostileFork The person who invents a new thing has only old things to work with.
These "archaic coding methodologies" of which you speak were the racecars of their time.
But of course, as you well know, I am all for advancing the codebase where we can.
Putting the tie-rods on it, if you will.
I do think whatever we end up with is still going to be more of "Don't look behind the curtain, kiddies!" then a lesson in C/C++, though.
 
1:24 AM
@johnk JSON, macros, Javascript. You can do anything you want in each, so let's use them all at once!
 
 
3 hours later…
4:01 AM
@MarkI @HostileFork I was looking at it with the view of. Rebol could do that and it would look cleaner. Just a thought
 
 
5 hours later…
8:53 AM
posted on April 22, 2015 by Oldes

first+ is native! introduced in Rebol3, which return the FIRST of a series and then increment the series index. red>> s: "abcd" == "abcd" red>> while [not tail? s][probe first+ s] #"a" #"b" #"c" #"d" red>> b: [1 "foo"] == [1 "foo"] red>> first+ b == 1 red>> first+ b == "foo" red>> first+ b == none red>> tail? b == true red>> head b == [1 "foo"]

 
 
3 hours later…
11:33 AM
Should to-word "4" succeed?
 
12:12 PM
Or should /4 fail?
 
12:42 PM
Because it doesn't make any sense unless one of those questions is answered with a yes, and the other with a no.
Plus, there is no clue in the code, and the decision is otherwise arbitrary, so I need your help here, please!
 
 
2 hours later…
3:01 PM
red> print /hello
red> any-word? #foo
@redbot alive?
@RebolBot alive?
 
@RebolBot do/red print /hello
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
hello
 
@RebolBot do/red print to refinement! "4"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
4
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl

*** Error: arguments stack overflow!
 
3:09 PM
Oops!
@RebolBot do/red print [/4 #4]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
4 4
 
@RebolBot do/red print [/4 #4 to word! #4]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
*** Script error: to does not allow issue for its type argument
*** Where: to
*** Stack: do-console all not unset? set do first head reduce do* _execute if all not unset? set do first head reduce do* print to
 
@RebolBot do/red print [/4 #4 as word! #4]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
*** Script error: as has no value
*** Where: print
*** Stack: do-console all not unset? set do first head reduce do* _execute if all not unset? set do first head reduce do* print
 
3:11 PM
Guess I'll ask in the Red room.
 
 
2 hours later…
4:56 PM
@MarkI Yes, to-word "4" should succeed, but it is an unnatural and should mold with escaping or construction syntax
 
 
2 hours later…
6:29 PM
@HostileFork Thanks. I agree, but may I beg you for your particular reasons and/or justifications?
I can find no assumption anywhere that refinements (or issues) of "unnatural" words have to even work ...
 
@MarkI General rationale for why all words need to be able to be built have been hashed through a few times, but perhaps you missed those discussions. Dialect designers--especially those mapping domains that already exist and don't follow Rebol's rules of syntax--may choose to dispatch via Rebol's type system. Being unable to "escape" and use any word puts the burden of coming up with escaping for these cases on each dialect designer.
 
@HostileFork I am aware of your justification for allowing spaces in words. I am asking if you have any different justifications for allowing words to begin with digits.
 
Same reasons
Perhaps I'm making an HTML dialect
 
@HostileFork That's unfortunately not good enough, but thanks anyway.
 
and I want to do div or span IDs via (say) issues
[span #foo "span content here"]
While it may be uncommon for these IDs/issues to start with numbers, it's not illegal.
 
6:33 PM
@HostileFork Says who? The HTML standard?
 
@MarkI Yes.
847
Q: What are valid values for the id attribute in HTML?

Mr SharkWhen creating the id attributes for HTML elements, what rules are there for the value?

(HTML5)
 
@HostileFork Thanks, but that still leaves me thinking it's not a good enough reason.
 
@MarkI Complete disagreement, as if I want to represent HTML5 IDs via an ISSUE! I don't want to come up with some cockamamie scheme to escape IDs starting with numbers. My code should be able and happy to just say ISSUE? on whatever and have that be enough.
 
My problem is that I have no way of determining if the fact that "/4" works is a bug.
I am happy to assume otherwise, as I have said, it's just I have no good justification for it.
 
@MarkI In my world that's to-path! [#[none!] 4] and a distinct thing from words entirely.
 
6:38 PM
@HostileFork Can you at least understand, if not forgive, my position?
I don't want to have to use NewPath as reasoning for making Rebol language decisions.
 
@MarkI Were I a fly trapped more deeply in amber vs. the spider trapped slightly less deeply in tar afterward, and REFINEMENT! were something I were willing to say made good sense as a language component and being word-like, I would hold it to the rules of natural words and say /4 required escaping or construction syntax.
 
@HostileFork Munged, sorry.
 
@MarkI If issues were words, I'd hold them to word-natural rules also
Yes, I'm not hinged too emotionally on what issues are or aren't.
 
@HostileFork Cool! You do know that issues are words right now, right?
 
They were strings, then they were words, they have a terrible name.
They are largely unused in the core dialects.
 
6:41 PM
So you think that '#4' working, as an issue-word or any-word, would be a bug.
 
I would say it's an example of "breaking a rule because you can". If you're going to do that there's lots of other rules you could break too. Why not :4? '4?
 
@HostileFork Indeed why not.
 
Because if you write 1: 2 and then write print 1 you get an asymmetric behavior from a: 2 with print a.
 
But I am starting to see that if whatever issues are will accept beginning with a digit, then you would like them to accept beginning with anything.
 
I don't have a problem with ^1: 2 and print ^1 outputting 2.
with spelling? '^1 returning the string "1"
 
6:46 PM
I am talking about a different thing.
Currently words are allowed to contain certain characters.
The set of characters that can be the first character of a word, however, is a subset of the set of characters that can be elsewhere.
Currently, there are two exceptions to that rule, namely, refinements and issues.
In those two cases, and in those two cases only, any character that is allowed in any position in a word is also allowed at the beginning.
Rather than "unnatural", I would prefer to term these words as "extended" words.
As long as you know they're in a word context, they are readable and understandable and need no escaping inherently.
I am not proposing that these extended words be allowed everywhere words are currently.
I am not even proposing that there be escaping mechanisms that allow them to be in those syntax formations.
I am just asking if it would make sense to allow them as words at all.
Sounds like you are saying no.
BTW, it's not just digits that are so especially excepted, it is also tick ('), if that helps anyone.
 
7:03 PM
I guess the only thing I can do is push my change that makes "/4" and "#4" both syntax errors and watch people not take it ;)
 
@HostileFork That would suck for issues representing serial numbers or phone numbers.
 
@rgchris Haven't we agreed that issues-as-words kinda destroys that already?
 
No.
Not so long as they still work.
>> type? #123-456-7890
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== issue!
 
rebol2> type? #123-456-7890
red> type? #123-456-7890
 
7:12 PM
@MarkI No, to-word "4" should fail.
 
Where'd all the bots go?
 
167-617
 
If you are using serial/phone numbers as abstract blobs of characters, then it doesn't matter if they're words or strings, and words would cover less of the space.
If you are using serial/phone numbers in an application that needs to access portions of them, like prefix or area code, then words are just ... wrong.
 
@MarkI Types are a way to differentiate types of data.
@MarkI Yey! Let's return issue! to being string!-based :)
Why not represent everything as a string and be done?
 
@rebolek I thought we'd settled this. :-/
@rgchris No one really ever articulated what issues were, the decision to wordify them seemed to be driven by one range of usage as preprocessor macros. With Plan -4 there are more opportunities than there were prior. As I said, I have no particular allegiance one way or another.
One main reason it was easy to split thinking on issues is because they're named badly, they correspond to nothing syntactically except perhaps color constants (#44AAEE) and preprocessor macros (#include)
I'd be suspicious of being able to have a meaningful discussion about their range or behavior until someone explains what the heck they were in the first place.
 
7:25 PM
From Ten Steps:
 
It seems there were a number of people irritated that they stopped being strings.
 
#707-467-8000        ; a phone number
#0000-1234-5678-9999 ; a credit card number
#MFG-932-741-A       ; a model number
I tend to think of 'issue' as being fairly descriptive myself.
@HostileFork My opinion is that being strings better reflects what they are useful for. The move to words was based on how a few people used them as sort-of-words.
 
@rgchris Well, switching them back to strings isn't going to get any huge argument back from me
It might be nice to come up with another symbolic type
@foo being word-like is a possibility
 
Still would like @foo as a valid email (to use as references to someone's username).
 
@rgchris Is there a reason it needs to be an EMAIL! ?
 
7:35 PM
[@rgchris 15:54 "Use @... to represent people"]
 
If it were an ANY-WORD! would that break any intended use?
 
@HostileFork Not particularly. That was where we ended up when we hashed it out before...
 
Well that's my argument here, that if we're going to gripe that "Rebol needs another symbolic word-like type and has too few", then @xxx could step in and return #yyy to string status
 
?
 
So if Red insists on having preprocessor-y things that it used #include for before and wanted word-like semantics, it would use @include instead
 
7:37 PM
So why to change issue! to string type in the first place?
 
It was a string type in the first place...
 
Because people liked issues as strings, and it was changed to any-word! for reasons we are now challenging
But if @xxx is going to be word-like and following guidelines I've suggested above, @1 would not be legal as a natural. any more than 1: is
Whereas if #xxx is stringy, then #1 is legal as a natural
Unfortunately, #{...} is already taken so there would be no parity as with %xxx and %{x x x}
Hm, interesting question though. Why would binary! in the general case need #{...}? Why can't I write #DECAFBAD and then #{DE CA FB AD}?
 
@HostileFork I don't think so—as long as they can start with numbers.
 
Might not the sanest interpretation be a binary?
That would handle color constants, at least.
 
For someone that uses binary a lot, perhaps.
 
7:44 PM
Hm, well just wondering. I think that we haven't lived long enough in a Plan -4 world to think about what the implications are.
There may be ramifications that render many of these questions as..."different"
I forget why Red/System didn't like binaries for hex literals.
 
I don't understand why ISSUE! gets so much hate! It's a lovable type as intended yet everyone wants it to be something else. Stand tall, ISSUE!
 
@rgchris Heh. Don't listen to him ISSUE! You suck! :-)
 
:P
 
Okay, full disclosure, new path is not that great...but nevertheless...issue sucks!
 
8:04 PM
If you're using an expression in Rebol 3 Parse, is there a way to reference the current position without explicitly marking it?
>> parse [word] [if (...test position...) word!]
 
8:18 PM
@HostileFork @rgchris What about $foo? That would also emphasize how words can't begin with a digit, or even look like a number.
I am not hating on @foo, we could have that too, I'm just saying if you need "issue-words" properties, $foo might not be too bad.
 
@MarkI I'm open to it. I'm not sure what you'd call it—META-WORD! ?
 
@rgchris I learned long ago to let other people name things, I suck at it big time :)
 
I'm always game to throw out a suggestion. Always happy to recognise when someone else nails it though...
 
8:34 PM
OK, since you ask, I like moniker!
I can hear @HostileFork cringing from here ... :)
But seriously, there already is a name for that dude, and that is symbol! ... unless you have objections?
It even aligns with the S-ness of the dollar sign: "$ymbol"
 
8:49 PM
posted on April 22, 2015 by Steven White

I am looking at the REBOL/View VID Developer's Guide, in the section called 'View Facets,' trying to figure out what they mean.  Some of them seem to be the facets applied to styles, but some do not.  So I am hacking through them one at a time, and for the first one, 'offset,' I am guessing that it means an offset from the top left corner of a screen to the start of a window

 
@MarkI Those (as to) aren't implemented yet in Red. I am not sure what the API internal is for conversions, but hope it comes soon
 
 
2 hours later…
10:42 PM
@rgchris That would be useful
 
11:15 PM
0
Q: Expressing Rebol Dates in EBNF

rgchrisI'm looking to define the Rebol date format in EBNF notation. I'd like as best as possible to only define valid dates—at least those that are valid in Rebol at the moment: Date ::= DateDate ('/' Time DateZone?)? DateDate ::= DateDay31 ('-' DateMonth31 '-' | '/' DateMonth31 '/') DateYear ...

 
11:47 PM
The bots are down at the moment due to a rebol.org issue. They pick up the Eliza script directly on load so are failing when they try to get the script. I'll have a look at a workaround tonight
Looks like DNS expired for rebol.org. anyone know who to call?
 
@johnk The FCC?
@rgchris CodeReview grumps. :-/ But one thing I'll say about Rebol datetime is I've wondered if there's any chance of excising the slash
Although a DATE!/TIME! path isn't the worst idea.
 

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