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12:16 AM
 
1:11 AM
@HostileFork i got 99 problems but a pixel aint one
 
 
2 hours later…
3:09 AM
@ShixinZeng - most probably it is too early, but would you consider to look into Red, once its more mature, or is R3 offering you anything you need for your company work?
 
3:22 AM
@pekr I actually took a look at Red back when it's before, I think, 0.1. I will keep an eye on Red, even though not closely following its development, and evaluate the possibility of migration.
 
Well, Red/System is 1.0, Red is close to 0.5.0 (objects, Android .apk free from 3rd party SW needs). Next month some Android demo and then - IO finally. I hope that in half a year, Red gets to 1.0 beta ...
 
But our application requires a cross-platform GUI, which is a long way to go for Red, I think
 
 
2 hours later…
5:12 AM
@johnk still on holiday?
 
5:48 AM
@happyspoon still unpacking :)
 
 
1 hour later…
7:02 AM
@ShixinZeng - fine - Doc is not fan of View (slow, unaccelerated, ugly, whatever), but my idea was to sponsor eventual port of View to Red. Curious, if there would be any interest in that, apart from me, to have small GUI engine available for embedded world ...
 
7:25 AM
Why not sponsor an openGL or whatever port of r3Gui?
 
 
2 hours later…
9:07 AM
@HappySpoon - you probably don't understand - whatever is r3-GUI running upon, is still a View engine for me. And Cyphre started the abstraction work, so that View works still the same way (events, gobs, etc.), but uses e.g. OpenGL instead of AGG.
The difference I talk about is - cross-platform GUI, vs native one, whereas native one is Doc's preference. And IIRC, you were in that camp too, long time ago :-)
So actually yes, you are right, be it OpenGL instead of AGG, but apart from native OS linked UI engines, I still think, that having a cross-platform one could be benefical for stuff like embedded, etc.
 
 
2 hours later…
10:39 AM
It is late in Rebol's development to switch GUI strategies to trying to be native. I would suggest just saying that's a differentiating factor in the systems. You get the benefit of your application looking the same on all platforms.
You get the disadvantage of it looking like an 80s cash register. But if you want to extend with your own widgets, you write to a lowest common denominator. There are advantages to it.
People who aren't trying to market solutions to customers but just doing scripting won't care as long as it works; companies like Atronix who are doing industrial controls will feel similarly. Though note the recent remark on no support for IME; so you can't (for instance) enter Chinese characters in the GUI yet.
 
11:23 AM
@HostileFork - the reason why R3-GUI is ugly, is, that it was not finished. It has a skin system, so even that could be cured imo. E.g. look like Ashley Simplified (flattened) the look of RebGUI, even before flat design became popular :-)
 
12:12 PM
CureCode is down ATM, but I notice that if you do foo: open %filename.txt followed by read foo you get the file, and then read foo again you get an empty binary.
But if you say head foo and then read foo you get the file contents again.
@RebolBot
foo: [a b c]
foo: tail foo
head foo
probe foo
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
[]
== []
 
head shouldn't modify its argument just because it's a port, should it? :-/ Shouldn't it give you an offset into the port but leave the parameter alone?
 
 
1 hour later…
1:22 PM
posted on September 29, 2014 by fork

[Bug] HEAD does not modify its argument if it is a series. You get a new series index. But if you pass HEAD a PORT! it modifies the argument. It should leave the argument at the position it is, and give you a new port with a position state.

 
1:41 PM
@ShixinZeng Red should have native GUI's for Windows and Android relatively soon. With those as examples perhaps Mac/iOS gurus and Linux gurus could help out on those fronts. I assume most of the heavy lifting will be done at that point. Creating a bridge to ios the way android bridge was done.
@pekr Something appealing to me also about the rebol/view way. Small, lean, available out of the box...And I like my apps appearing different from the native styles. It would need to be a lot better then vid2. Have not played with vid3 much and I know its not finished but it looks pretty good and with skinning it could look great.
 
2:06 PM
Well, we need to talk to Cyphre then, wherever he is these days :-) Well, we have got objects to Red finally, but we still need gobs and events, etc. So we need to wait till the IO is done imo ...
 
posted on September 29, 2014 by abolka

[Comment] Good observation, but the current behaviour works as designed. Actions (action!) are polymorphic over their datatype. HEAD, NEXT, SKIP, COPY etc all currently mutate port state and that's the intended behaviour. As such, this is definitely not a bug.

 
2:22 PM
@HostileFork I don't think that it is "late in Rebol's development to switch GUI strategies" at all. R3 should be flexible enough to accommodate both approaches: a custom VID-like GUI and a GUI building on top of native widgets. The GUI components in R3 are rather well modularised.
 
3:17 PM
Hm. So PNaCl "pinnacle" uses LLVM bitcode and runs it in Chrome.
AFAICT this means if Red could generate LLVM, it could be executed by people with Chromium browsers, even if you didn't have an LLVM-to-EXE chain installed.
 
I wonder if old NSPlugin api is still supported. But I also wonder - will ppl instal plugins these days?
 
Heh, what does Google think of themselves? So here we go - they decided, that they will break what ALL browser producers (apart from later IE) used. And they decided, they will whitelist few of them, but excluded the flash ...
In fact, any need for a plugin, being it NPAPI, NaCl, whatever, is just a manifesto towards the poor performance of default combo - html, css, js ...
 
3:34 PM
@pekr I'd re-read that in more detail, I think they give very good reason why they do that and why it will have very little impact.
Also, Flash is already bundled in Chrome, just not as an NPAPI plugin. So it's also not affected by this transition.
 
I know -my message was different. So google reinvents the wheel, whatever the reason is, introduce their stuff and they call it a "standard" ... you know - NPAPI was cross-browser ...
I don't care about Chrome at all, I use FF since it was called Netscape 2.0 :-)
I need to google, if there is a NaCl for FF ...
 
(P)NaCL is not Google's main NPAPI successor.
The plain web stack is (JS).
That's also true for Mozilla, btw :)
(And no, AFAIR Mozilla is not interested in NaCL.)
 
3:49 PM
Google and their typical power games ...
 
>> load "foo a, b, c"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/syntax-invalid.html
    *** ERROR
** Syntax error: invalid "word" -- "a,"
** Where: to case load
** Near: (line 1) foo a, b, c
 
Something that breaks the ability to work with many other simple languages source, keeping it from being LOADable, is how commas are handled. I wonder if parse-wise, if that would load as [foo a , b , c] that would offer some interesting possibilities; with comma behavior in the interpreter being as we have spoken about it before.
 
Nice summary of (P)NaCL vs asm.js etc ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Native_Client
 
Like "if you end a word with a comma or period it actually becomes standalone in the load."
If you could just load a word with comma and period being considered equivalent you could work around it too.
So [foo a, b, c] ... kind of ugly, but...
 
3:57 PM
posted on September 29, 2014 by szeng

[Comment] yes, this is kinda inconsistent, but returning a new port will introduce some side effects that might not be desirable, because a port is more than a plain series, it usually has some other resources with it, e.g. a network port has a network connection with it and a file port has a file descriptor with it. So returning a new port would mean new resources need to be created, which mig

 
4:09 PM
posted on September 29, 2014 by fork

[Comment] It would be better if doing "head foo" invalidated that foo, and if you tried to use it would throw an error. That way you would need to say "foo: head foo" instead. That would be a more forward-looking solution, enabling an era in which it would be possible to keep things consistent without it being a resource burden, while having the code be coherent with series.

 
4:22 PM
posted on September 29, 2014 by szeng

[Comment] invalidating a port does modify the port, AFAICT. To really mimic the behavior of a series, you would need to introduce another wrapper structure around the port, just as the REBSRI around REBSER, so that you can use the same underlying port while keeping different indexes in the wrapper.

posted on September 29, 2014 by fork

[Comment] Well, I'm proposing that even a dummy REBPRI which can only hold a port reference that is "valid" or "invalid" would leave room for future expansion...where code written to respect the invalidation and always pass the port into a new hot potato would continue to work if a better REBPRI were written.

 
5:22 PM
posted on September 29, 2014 by fork

[Issue] One early question that I wondered about--after seeing usages in scripts--was whether or not to use LIT-WORD! vs. WORD! in headers. Rebol [ Title: "My cool script" License: 'bsd Language: English ] In the Rebol2 documentation, Carl seems to prescribe LIT-WORD! http://www.rebol.com/docs/core23/rebolcore-5.html Yet the CONSTRUCT primitive, which is used to make an object as d

 
5:33 PM
To try and cheer myself up I thought I might take a look at tinkering with old assembly languages, play a little with the assemblers, perhaps write an intellivision assembler and a little game or something. So I looked at the assembler in jzintv: github.com/clobber/jzIntv/tree/master/src/asm
These are to me good cases for trying to see; could you make a dialect and really have a smaller tool, on a smaller toolchain? Fewer bugs, easier to add features to?
But it's not necessarily an obvious win in terms of the rules on the source. It really does make me feel like I want the period/comma we talked about.
    JR   Rx     -->   MOVR Rx, PC     -->  MOVR Rx PC .
    CALL addr   -->   JSR  R5, addr   -->  JSR R5 addr .
    BEGIN       -->   MVO@ R5, SP     -->  MVO @ R5 SP .
    RETURN      -->   MVI@ SP, PC     -->  MVI @ SP PC .
Something like that I guess. The periods would be optional, but probably good for you.
I don't think using a string type, like an email! for MVO@ is a good idea when designing such things. They should be words. And I think you should be able to have a lone @ as well as the "handle" types we've discussed. Perhaps just calling that type "alias!" is better than email!...because an email address is an "alias"...
 
6:09 PM
@HostileFork I always thought a refinement to load should modify a single aspect of Rebol's dialect... comma and period. basically using that refinement it would treat periods for decimal number and as a word character only. in this case, the comma becomes a whitespace which is kept in the output. This should never be the default, nor should it be possible to make it a global setup.
so the REBOL root dialect never accepts commas when loading strings, but allows for a more "scientific" friendly format, for importing data from just about every other math/logic/data language out there.
 
6:53 PM
we can discuss endlessly about R3 priorities, but we need to know if there is actually any money on the table, and whether there's anyone interested in taking it. Hence my suggestion for the bounty on console. Get that done and then we can have a discussion.
3
 
7:46 PM
posted on September 29, 2014 by Hostile Fork

In discussing potential bounty ideas, @GregP mentioned: > - support of "do task" (multi threading) I will very strongly say DON'T try to attack multithreading with Rebol.  That is a tar pit. If your goal is to speed up your code on algorithms using multiple cores...then you are misguided in using an interpreter to be solving a problem where speed is essential. If you

posted on September 29, 2014 by Hostile Fork

In making suggestions for bounties, @GregP suggested: > - R2/R3 comparison > - R3 test cases The differences between Rebol2 and Rebol3 are largely known in the core, and if you have specific questions StackOverflow is the place to ask...or just make notes and answer your own question.  For example, you can read about the Zen Cow: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15077974/

Find Red in this programming languages network graph: http://tinyurl.com/o4x86zu :-)
 
 
1 hour later…
8:51 PM
@Feeds I found it! Also, found Rebol. Don't quite understand how they placed it where they did.
 
I think I found a bug, rebol shows in two different places ;)
 
9:20 PM
Who's that Patrick Stewart guy? What is his track record? How does he want to drive any community effort, if he ask questions like "Didn't R2 run in the browser as a cgi or fast-cgi?" - this question is utter nonsense and I would expect some basic knowledge here ...
 
@pekr An investor doesn't need to have intimate knowledge of how things worked
 
How do you know he's an investor?
 
And yes, R2 worked as cgi and fast-cgi ... in browser and other http clients
@pekr He has said he wants to develop R3 to a point where he can use it in his business I think
 
@pekr We don't know much about him. With a name like Patrick Stewart, it is also very hard to do a Google search and come up with something useable. However, he is spurring interesting discussions which is good. He may be a rich investor or he may be a troll. At this point, we don't really know because we haven't seen anything yet.
 
No, R2 did not run in a browser as CGI nor FastCGI. It starts to look like a scam
I will wait what comes up from all that chatter ...
 
9:27 PM
@pekr Correct...R2 didn't run inside a browser at all except for the plug-in, and that was only one instance per browser type. If he is trying to scam, I don't know what he hopes to gain. That's why I'm saying at worst, he is a troll.
@pekr Probably a good idea.
 
"So who would be this 3rd party that would hold funds pledged for the bounties? Is there some form of service that does this kind of stuff or do you have someone in mind for this because i agree that is important." - so an investor, does not know how bounties work?
And if he is an investor, why did he tried to buy an SDK?
 
@pekr If it makes you feel better, you can write him off as a troll. If he does accomplish something at some point, then you can be free to change your mind.
 
This name is not real imo. And if it is not real, I don't believe intentions are real. The discussion is running in circle, the person is trying to gather ideas from other, of what should be actually done
That does not sound like a concrete plan of action. Anyone who claims is able to drive 8 top developers organised, should know what is needed to be done imo ...
Well, that's my opinion ... maybe I am too skeptical that some saviour appears ...
 
@pekr lots of hire developer sites around that can hold funds but they take a percentage as a fee
My other thought was you could send the funds to one or more trusted developers who could hold onto it until the job was done. The more it's split the less the risk.
 
The discussion might be usefull - we've got list of what the top priorities should be. It's in Nick's post. Well, I would add CALL (if it's not already done somewhere in some repo) ....
 
9:33 PM
as I mentioned, take the low hanging fruit first ...
not waste all the funds on a JS port that might or might not get done
And if something gets done and paid for, we will know he's not trolling
 
@pekr People can mistype things. "If I were to use Rebol to make a website" can become "If I were to use Rebol in a browser".
 
So, people be reasonable in placing priorities
 
Nick did not suggest JS port ...
 
But the best idea is just to not answer the questions with any real agenda other than the provision of truth and getting people on the same page. And don't do anything you wouldn't do without payment unless (as Graham points out) some kind of escrow exists.
I don't think there's a lot of risk of that, so there's not much to worry about.
If a teenager in India asked a similar question it may not get the same level of attention from some people, but I'd answer the questions about the same.
 
As the old saying goes "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth"
Someone else can explain it :)
I haven't bought a horse in a long time ...
 
9:37 PM
I don't understand its applicability here, as I'm agreeing one should use a bounty escrow service, which would be looking a horse in the mouth in this case
Maybe. Whatever the horse is.
 
An escrow service is a guarantee against him being a troll
ok, wrong saying .. perhaps the old about killing the goose that laid the golden egg
Bounties are open. Now we need to escrow them, or find another site that can hold bounties that can be added to.
Or, perhaps we need someone to bid on them first ....
bountysource.com is the first one I googled
Looks like they charge 10%
Seems excessive
but am I seeing that IBM and Github are posting bounties there??
What he needs to do is clarify exactly what the bounty entails. Console does what, Emscripten port does what etc.
Otherwise there are going to be disputes
 
10:16 PM
posted on September 30, 2014 by Patrick Stewart

Ok Community, There has been tons of conversation going on in the Open Letter to Carl and The Community Thread here: http://rebolforum.com/index.cgi?f=printtopic&topicnumber=44&archiveflag=new But as I continue to read and reread the post in there making notes as I go along to keep my mind right. I want to kick this effort off with a few initial offers on a few things. I would hope t

 
I presume the Mac being donated for the Red build could also be used for the R3 build?
 
@HappySpoon Certainly.
But lower priority, because we already have OSX build slaves for R3.
@HappySpoon Are you on Skype or something for private chat?
 
@earl and they can't be used for the red buids?
 
@HappySpoon Unfortunately not, at the moment.
 
@earl Compkarori on skype, or google hangouts
 
 
1 hour later…
11:45 PM
Hello! How can read a file in Red?
 
11:56 PM
@giuliolunati I do not know that there is a way to yet, besides using a Red/System binding to fread and such. Remember that Red is still getting foundations like object! written.
red> type? port!
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
*** Error: word has no value!
== unset!
 
So no port! yet!
 
@giuliolunati no IO yet
 

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