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10:01 AM
posted on September 28, 2014 by qtxie

Note: change to 10 according practice experience. Some math function may produce different result on different arch. For example. On x86 platform, exp 123 -> 2.6195173187490456e53 On x86_64 platform, exp 123 -> 2.61951731874905e53

posted on September 28, 2014 by fork

[Bug] If you write the following: foo: function [a b] [ c: 10 d: 20 return [print "Hello" c print "Cruel" d print "World"] ] reduce foo 1 2 You'll not get any print output, and you instead get: *** Error: undefined context for word 'c Likely the story is that `print` has been resolved as a function with one argument, and it is attempting to fulfill that argument. Then `"Hello"

 
 
2 hours later…
12:00 PM
posted on September 28, 2014 by fork

[Wish] The result of a TAKE/PART is a series, and not a single value. However, the result of all TAKEs, regardless of input series, is a BLOCK!. So if you TAKE/PART from a PAREN! for instance, you get a block: >> take/part quote (1 2 3 4) 2 == [1 2] The type of the series you are taking from should be preserved, e.g. >> take/part quote (1 2 3 4) 2 == (1 2)

 
 
4 hours later…
3:49 PM
There are 421 instances of the rebol tag on SO questions. Beating it out by one, at 422, is the C function and the concept . Tying at 421 are the likes of and . Losing out by one at 420 are and .
in Red Development Team, 30 mins ago, by DocKimbel
All the object test are now passing (including the previously failing interpreter tests).
 
4:18 PM
I think safe loading of objects (e.g. headers) should explicitly disallow "live" items; e.g. those that would evaluate.
So for instance: no words, just lit-words that become words. No parens. And raise errors on misc. junk.
>> construct [a: 1 2 3]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== RESULT is an object of value:
   a               integer!  1
 
I still think it should be object/safe and not CONSTRUCT. But anyway, that would throw an error on the 2 and 3 as "junk"
>> construct [a: foo]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== RESULT is an object of value:
   a               word!     foo
 
That would throw an error, and force you to use a lit-word instead.
>> construct [a: reverse "whatever"]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== RESULT is an object of value:
   a               word!     reverse
 
4:22 PM
Another case for an error. If this were done, it would mean that the "safe" loadable objects would have a nice clean standard -AND- it would mean that all safe-loadable objects would produce the same thing if you loaded them "unsafely".
>> object [a: 1 2 3]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== RESULT is an object of value:
   a               integer!  1
 
posted on September 28, 2014 by abolka

[Comment] Good catch! Note, TAKE does not coalesce all series into block!s: >> take/part "foobar" 2 == "fo" >> take/part #{cafebeef} 2 == #{CAFE} >> take/part <foobar> 2 == <fo> It definitely should preserve the actual type for ANY-BLOCK! instances as well: >> take/part quote (a b c) 2 == [a b] ;; Expected: (a b) >> take/part quote a/b/c 2 == [a b] ;; Expected: a/b >> take

 
4:46 PM
@earl since you said "definitely" I'll promote it to "bug" :-)
I was tinkering on a code golf problem and found that. But in the time I was tinkering with it, someone solved it with an equation vs. performing the algorithm.
I really like the 2-argument UNTIL and the /AFTER refinement available on both WHILE and UNTIL. Way more sensible than trying to balance the puzzle with WHILST.
(wh, ut, wha, uta in Rebmu.)
I'm torn over the single letter assignments. w makes sense for WHILE, i for IF, e for EITHER, but u could be either UNTIL or UNLESS.
The single character space is something you can overwrite quickly if you want; I just don't know what the best initial condition is. Are you more likely to need UNLESS or UNTIL given that IF and WHILE are available?
The best argument for UNLESS is the refinement of UO instead of ULO, which is probably going to be more useful than WA for WHILE/AFTER. So I guess I'll stick with u as UNLESS.
Someday this is going to be important. :-)
 
@HostileFork Definitely by analogy to COPY/part, yes. I'll mention that in the ticket as well.
 
 
4 hours later…
9:12 PM
@ShixinZeng Off the record (or as off the record as one can be on a completely public chat room) have you thought, while working on tasks with Rebol, that another tool would be easier if it was what you were using and working on/with? Has any particular choice come to mind?
Atronix went VB6 => Delphi => Rebol2 => Rebol3
I am wondering if there is something you might suggest besides Rebol3, and if so, what the motivating factors would be. No one will beat you up for saying it. :-)
 
9:57 PM
@HostileFork If I had the choice, I would have gone to Python, which is open source, has a better documentation, larger community and more feature complete. But the advantage of rebol, in our case, is that the builtin cross-platform GUI is better than Python's builtin GUI, TK, I think.
 
@ShixinZeng Are there things you have come to like about Rebol, as a language, that you think are hard to give up in a non-GUI sense?
 
But since we've spent years on REBOL 2, and with the REBOL 3 open sourced, it becomes the natural successor.
 
Well with the open sourcing at least, you can fix blocking issues, and not wait for anyone else.
 
@HostileFork to me, not really, everything we've done with Rebol can be done in Python with less/equivalent efforts, I think.
@HostileFork we actually ran into some nasty REBOL 2 bug that we have to workaround with great efforts
The one comes to mind is that, "quit", in some cases, doesn't really quit, but hangs and eats 100% CPU
 
@ShixinZeng The consensus in Rebol3 is that QUIT means QUIT and there is no QUIT/NOW, but if you call a script and want to catch it quitting you use CATCH/QUIT
I ran into a QUIT problem recently too
 
10:05 PM
Another one is that on windows, we need to deploy our non-GUI applications as services, as REBOL doesn't support "callback" from a C function, the mechanism to manage the service is, I would say, ugly.
 
Patrick Stewart is wanting to fund Rebol3. We need a console with history and editing etc. Anyone have any idea of what work it would take, and what would a fair bounty be worth?
 
As for the console in R3, I would say, replace the current naive "readline" with the real "readline"
but I haven't looked into code about the possibility or the work it will take.
 
A bit hard to put a bounty on it then if one can't figure out how much work is required.
 
@HostileFork about the QUIT, we just used the plain QUIT, and it hung sometime
@HappySpoon that's true. But I am not really good at that
 
@ShixinZeng Well I empathize; I'm fortunate enough to consider the language from theory mostly. It definitely can be a hindrance in practice. But the malleability really can offer new ways of looking at things; if you try and write C or Python code in Rebol it will be terrible. To really reshape it to get your code down you "think different".
 
10:12 PM
I guess in that case perhaps he can start at a figure and keep increasing it until someone takes the job!
 
@ShixinZeng What do you think of things like CASE, ANY, ALL? Are these things you use a lot?
 
@HostileFork yes, I use them a lot
 
I think that, they sort of point to the uniqueness...the good part...the part that should be exploited more.
And dialecting, but writing a dialect and getting it right is difficult.
 
@HostileFork actually, it's not about thinking differently to me. The frustration about REBOL 2 comes more from its lacking documentation.
 
@ShixinZeng Well questions are answered in near-real-time :-)
If they are easy.
But if they are about "why does this port not wake up after sending an HTTP post" it's probably just "because it's broken and no one knows how it works and you have to ask the one guy who did that once"
 
10:17 PM
A lot of time, I have to guess what a rebol function does, and hope it will handle the un-tested cases the way I think
 
Well you don't have to suffer in silence, you can write a complaint every time it happens to you. As a ticket or here in chat so someone writes the ticket for you.
 
Lack of documentation is a big blah in Rebol. Need to hire some writers maybe
 
Complaining is good.
Unless you are @pekr, in which case, I will yell at you for it.
 
Without documentation, sometime, you can't really know it's by design, or a bug, and how much you can rely on its compatibility in the future version
 
Well, Python would fit you then, as an interpreted language kind of the one that the C/C++ crowd embraces due to valuing formalism over trying to be "cool" as I sense it
A lot of C++ programmers I know use Python as their "go to" scripting language
 
10:24 PM
The problem with Rebol2 and Rebol3 was that there was no way for 3rd parties to improve the documentation on Rebol.com
We have been offered rebol.net but no one seems to have the time to take up the offer.
 
@HostileFork yes, I've spent some time writing PERL code, but now I can hardly read PERL
 
I can't read it and don't want to.
I've enjoyed the little bit of Haskell I've done although I find it very mathy and it is just a different way of thinking about it. I like how Rebol can feel sort of like English writing, using the same part of the brain as when I'm typing in this chat box.
It's a weird way to program but has a certain literacy in this medium that I think, when you start casting solutions into it, starts to "make sense" in a different way.
 
@HostileFork oh, yeah, I forgot about Haskell. I spent some time on it when I was in the university. We used it in the "programming languages" course
I kinda liked its mathematical origin, and no side-effect design
 
I have tinkered with things like it in the past, but it's a bigger library and more established community, and it's nearly mainstream now. Starting it feels a bit like being at the foot of a mountain of knowledge... I had a bit of a hard time motivating myself to really learn about the C++ evolutions, and got my head around most of that... so now I can troubleshoot fairly complicated C++ questions on SO.
(Although there are some serious addicts on here who have been doing it for way longer and are usually faster to answer a question if it's actually interesting.)
But at least, I can understand pretty much any answer on here, even if I can't answer myself at that rate.
Tackling Haskell is something where I'm very much a beginner, and it doesn't matter that I get the "foundations"...there's so much more to the programming than the foundations. You can understand the grammar but there's vocabulary, idioms, huge libraries and one vs. the other... it's a universe unto itself.
I like the design but I still have to say... I just don't like the programs.
It's an aesthetic thing. If we are to be using text to express computational intent (questionable idea) then some of the basic problems we might solve, expressed as Haskell, may be salient and well-formalized...but I just don't like to read the way they're written for some set of common data-in data-out tasks.
 
FP is quite enjoyable. The first language I really used was PLT Scheme and I think in my Programming Language course the only thing I remember was the FP article from Backus. I think that was one of the first articles I just hunkered down and tried to figure out
 
10:35 PM
Well, practically speaking, there's a lot of delegation.
There's no cost model (as of yet), so you are trusting the system with a somewhat declarative specification of "this should happen" and having it figure out how...
And you can really muck up performance by writing your Haskell one way or another and it's just a sort of "you need to know not to do that" vs. having that exist at a formal level; they've formalized side effects but not performance
Anyway, I was an EE not a CS student. I took three 400 level CS courses and that was it; was exempted from prerequisites. Compilers, Databases, Operating Systems.
Hardness scale: Compilers > Operating Systems > Databases
 
It's been years since I last touched Haskell ...
 
But my exposure to pure functional programming has always been just random little things on my own time.
Not taken very far, just far enough to go "hm, that seems inconvenient."
"I wonder if they'll ever make that something you could use for actual programs?"
 
OK, gotta run
 
Haskell has been coming along, getting glued in so you can use it for stuff.
L8r, thanks for the info!
 

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