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12:25 AM
hmmm maybe something like this:
version-string: make struct! compose/deep [
	[raw-memory: (v)]
	uint8 [128] i
]
 
 
2 hours later…
2:45 AM
@HostileFork hope you don't mind the edit, does it make sense?
also, it doesn't need to be in uppercase for it to work, right?
 
3:00 AM
whaaat? you can use red to make android/java apps?
 
@CSᵠ for words in Rebol, case doesn't matter TO is the same as tO or To or to
>> to: 3
print [To tO TO]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
3 3 3
 
@kealist please take a look at gir.r, there is a "stringfy" function for this purpose
 
@ShixinZeng sweet. Kind of hard to navigate through. shouldn't some of the functions like stringify be built into the libffi implementation?
 
maybe as a mezz function, but not in C
 
3:15 AM
Yes, mezz is good of course.
 
We can do that later when the core function is solid
 
print shouldn't return anything, right?
print v: version
print to string! stringfy v
>> do %sqlite.reb
Script: "Untitled" Version: none Date: none
1640461216
3
== #{332E382E36}
 
I think you are right
 
something strange is happening
stringfy has the to string! already in it and if I have print stringfy v
it prints #{332E382E36}
if I put the extra to string! there, it prints 3, and returns == #{332E382E36}
 
That's strange
 
3:31 AM
hmm, something may have been corrupted. Just closed console and reopened and it's working fine
maybe running the script too many times
opening libraries without closing them
may be hard for me to recreate, but I'll keep an eye out for it
 
Yep
 
Anyways, can make some progress now that I know how to deal with strings :)
 
I should've documented all these things, but I am not good at documentation
 
Think it's nice to have a table of types and how to represent them
 
yes, that would be good
I did some documentation on our internal wiki, which is in dokuwiki format, and I tried to move that to github and found there was no easy way to convert the format
so I gave up
as not many people were using this feature
 
 
1 hour later…
5:11 AM
@CSᵠ Red compiles to ARM targets, and then there is a Java bridge for calling Android functions. Recently there is a jarsigner that can make .APK as part of the process. So the goal of having a sub-1MB executable that can end-to-end build an .APK with native performance and no Java Development Kit installed should be part of the 0.5.0 announcement (or so).
(With that same executable able to build .EXE, ELF binaries on Linux, and Mach-O on OS/X.)
The bridge is how Android programs will run for the near term. There is some overhead to calling an Android function that is greater using the bridge than if you were writing that call in Java. Most interesting programs--though--probably would on the balance be faster by doing most of their processing in native code.
The benefit of compiling directly to the JVM/Dalvik is questionable.
 
@HostileFork what about .apk size? what is the minimum overhead?
 
5:44 AM
@CSᵠ I don't think it is much. A hello world APK was 153KB at one point. If that was Red/System code calling the bridge, and didn't include the red Runtime, then at the current state of things it would be around 500KB.
That was back when you had to use the Java Development Kit jarsigner. Like I say, the big demo of end-to-end .APK building sounds like it may be part of 0.5.0 with the object compilation support. Or it may be a branch off of that.
 
5:57 AM
It's all very promising, but there is definitely a tremendous amount of work left to be done. Debugging, in particular, is difficult ... and that will not change anytime soon.
 
 
2 hours later…
7:42 AM
Hmm. Combine could use something that means "suppress the delimiter"
combine/with [{a} no-delim {b} {c}] space => ab c
I'm not sure what that thing should be, but it would come in handy. Especially if COMBINE is powering PRINT.
You want space as a default, it's just useful most of the time... but sometimes you don't want it. I wonder what a clean way of saying it would be?
There are some types that aren't eval'd and currently throw errors. Issues, refinements...
>> type? #
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== none!
 
Huh?
>> type? #a
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== issue!
 
/splice is literate but long. I would kind of like something shorter.
>> form %/foo/bar
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== "/foo/bar"
 
7:53 AM
On Windows does that say "\foo\bar"?
red> type? #
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== none!
 
>> type? ##
 
@HostileFork Can you elaborate on that?
 
>> type? /-
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== refinement!
 
7:59 AM
That's not too bad. What do you think @johnk? combine/with [{a} /- {b} {c}] space => ab c
If COMBINE/WITH space is what powered PRINT, that would be very useful.
 
8:12 AM
Hey. StackOverflow chat GOT A NEW FEATURE!
When you start @ typing someone's name, there's a little autocompleter that shows the avatar.
Why, that's the first feature added to chat since... since...
insert coin
Aw, they delete that one?
Oh, only on gaming.
43
Q: What Easter Eggs do the chat sites have?

MosheAccording to balpha, the SE chat sites may have individual Easter eggs, depending on the site. If you find them, please post. Edit: Because it's so easy to make this stuff up, a screenshot as proof would be nice. (Although Photoshop ain't that hard either...)

 
8:35 AM
>> probe [{a}/-{b}]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
["a" /- "b"]
== ["a" /- "b"]
 
>> print {abc}/2
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
abc
== /2
 
I don't know about that. #"b" seems like a better answer. This ties into a number of other cases where I feel the bias is wrong...if you want a space, use a space.
But at least here, it's a case where Rebmu benefits from the behavior. I guess you might ask "how often do people pick paths out of string literals?"
 
9:37 AM
Okay, I renamed /- (which looks too much like ^-) to /+ and I am pleased with it. Awesome.
'>> x: 0 combine/with [{a} {b} {c} /+ {d} {e}] ["-" (++ x) "-"]
== "a-0-b-1-cd-2-e"
'>> whose: [{whose name is} name]
== ["whose name is" name]

>> know: [{I know a} type whose]
== ["I know a" type whose]

>> type: "dog" name: "Wesly"
== "Wesly"

>> print [{Statement:} know /+ {.}]
Statement: I know a dog whose name is Wesly.

>> type: "language" name: "Red"
== "Red"

>> print [know {and it's really cool!}]
I know a language whose name is Red and it's really cool!
How about that?
A sane and flexible design, eliminating most all casual usages of REJOIN.
 
Very nice, but the symbol feels a bit in-rebolish
 
I don't want to use anything in band, which takes away from a legal word to use in evaluation. :-/
 
Is it a concatenation ? Could be || which people will recognise from other languages
 
That counts as in-band, because you might want that to be doing some other evaluation. A refinement doesn't have any evaluation.
Refinements are part of the language <shrug>. I don't see why we shouldn't use them.
 
^| ?
 
9:52 AM
>> type? ^|
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-no-value.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: ^| has no value
** Where:
** Near: try load/all join %/users/try-REBOL/data/ system/script/args...
 
>> type? quote ^|
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== word!
 
All WORD! instances are "in-band".
 
Hmm
 
9:53 AM
That leaves issues and refinements, pretty much.
Being in-band hasn't stopped other dialects, though. But I'd prefer not to be seeing COMBINE as a "dialect" and chewing words out of the evaluation space.
 
I see. Makes sense
 
I think I will go apply this to Draem and see what it cleans up. (And if there are any unforeseen problems with it)
 
Good idea. Start with practice before getting lost in theory
@happyspoon away on holiday at the moment. Will have a look at the lack of altme messages from ec2 in a few days time
Any progress with Pat Stewart and gathering the community? Any altme discussion we are missing out on over here?
 
10:09 AM
@johnk The discussion goes on with Nick's forum. Nenad just posted saying he could actually use a hosted OS/X machine for mac builds of Red.
I wrote Carl mentioning the restless natives and encouraging him to seal the deal w/Andreas about moving forward on the integrations. It seems we've gotten close without actually getting there, somehow!
 
 
5 hours later…
3:39 PM
@RedBot
foo: "abc"
index: 2
print foo/index
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
none
 
@RedBot
foo: "abc"
index: 2
print foo/(index)
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
b
 
 
2 hours later…
5:10 PM
posted on September 27, 2014 by fork

[Wish] The nature of OBJECT! vs. MAP! has often been questioned, as many dynamic languages (such as JavaScript) have a single key/value store that is used for both purposes. This brings to the table the question of how the two are different--or should be different--at both an interface and implementation level. The desire of case-sensitivity in MAP! has brought to the forefront an issue to lo

 
 
1 hour later…
6:20 PM
@respectech As one of the users of Red/System, do you feel that switching away from print not adding a line feed to having it add a line feed and prin being a non-line-feed version, as in Rebol, would be a hassle for you if it were changed?
For instance, in the 0.5.0 version, would this create a problem for you to adapt to?
 
 
3 hours later…
9:10 PM
Can someone identify the main programming issues stopping Rebol3 from being a final release? Then maybe we can get Patrick Stewart to bounty those items?
We need some focus here to get to the final post ... looks like we're quitting just as we near the final post.
 
9:41 PM
Regardless of whatever else happens, I'd like Rebol3 and Red to be LOAD compatible. They may not run code the same, but they should have the goal of being LOAD compatible with any problems with that being considered bugs.
 
Are there any load compatibility issues now?
 
red> any-string? #foo
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== false
 
red> any-word? #foo
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== true
 
9:43 PM
I'm not sure what differences there may be at this point. We know the runtime in Red is more liberal for what is allowed in a word!
red> to word! "<s>"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== <s>
 
>> to word! "<s>"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/syntax-bad-char.html
    *** ERROR
** Syntax error: invalid character in: "<s>"
** Where: to
** Near: to word! "<s>"
 
are there any compatibility testing suites written?
 
Not strictly a LOAD issue except I feel that it should be compatible even if construction syntax is used.
Not sure, but there is a corpus of Rebol files out there that could be used as a test to ensure they enumerate with the same types/lengths/etc.
Bbiab
 
9:51 PM
Is doc aiming for rebol2 compatibility though?
 
Not strictly. E.g. 'parse is more R3 compatible than R2. I mean - it implements some parse extensions, as defined for R3 ...
but truth is, Doc was not much familiar with R3, so the influence might be on the R2 side mainly. But for each feature, he is surely going to consider R3 direction. But he e.g. refuses to implement 'append on objects ...
 
so a hybrid
well, I guess we should hope for something better than R2
 
hybrid? doesn't it sound offensive? Are you sure all R3 decisions were well thought of?
 
not offensive. I have a hybrid car .. best of both worlds :)
 
Red nature might be different anyway, it is mostly a compiled language, although some dynamic nature is still kept. It surely will not be 100% compatible nor to R2, nor to R3.
Another difference might come with IO. E.g. Red is going to get a concurrency support, which is still mostly undefined and not implemented for R3
 
10:00 PM
IO first would be nice
 
I am submitting all possible R3 resources to Doc, once he is ready to implement some features. It is then upon him, to consider ... e.g. he liked Object spec blocks, as defined by Carl, but not implemented IIRC. It would help compiler to optimise ...
IO starts in 2 months imo.
0.5.0 is around the corner, with some big change - see Altme. Along with that, we get native .apk support (done by qtxie). Next Doc might work on Redbin, which would reduce compile time by cca 2/3.
and for the end of October, he is supposed to create an Android demo ...
 
Not installing Altme on my new PC
 
After that, IO starts ... well, for the demo, some very basic IO is going to be available, not just typical ports/schemes
 
I guess I'm in wait mode .. I can't do anything useful without IO
 
we are all in a wait mode
good thing some things are happening in R3 land, albeit quite slowly. But ppl tend to turn their eyes towards Red, being kind of disappointed, that it is not complete. Well, it progresses with all planned features ...
the situation is going to be different in half a year ...
my bet still is, that Red will surpass R3 anyway ...
 
10:06 PM
might be a few more years before that happens
 
I wonder how you can have so unrealistic time frame
Then go and use r3 to your advantage :-)
Where's the Saphirion and R3-GUI standing nowadays? How often can you see guys here? Ditto for BrianH and his module system? Who's actually going to finish it?
 
R3 is not standing still. It's being actively developed by Atronix.
 
yes, the only hope. The same hope we had with Saphirion and guys like Cyphre, Ladislav, Henrik, Rebolek ...
Someone should talk to Robert, or we should imo agree to accept Atronix as a community distro
 
That's what happens when you try and take over Rebol for yourself
 
E.g. what is the state of R3 Android work? I put very small initial donation to that. I could spend more, but there is zero communication about the plan, release, etc.
That is why I am sponsoring Red as my finances permit. Having a leader is a big plus imo ...
 
10:15 PM
Yes there's a disconnect between what was promised and what was delivered
 
Pity that Red was not more complete already, at the time of demise of Carl ...
 
It seems R is very important to Rebol
Reichart, Robert, Rackovic = R3
But in the past, having a company with Rebol developers seems to have hurt the community as these developers have then disengaged
 
but I treat is a whole Rebol-like languages ecosystem. HostileFork might be right in that regard. If R3 progresses, and chances are, it will, I still like it.
 
What do you think is still missing from R3?
 
well, as for Saphirion, Robert does his business stuff. I am not sure Rebolek or Henrik works for him anymore, and even Cyphre might have his own projects
Well, there is now kind of library interface, good! But for me - CALL at least on the R2 level (Red got that, why not R3?), protocols - email, http(s), ftp. Then DBs ... SQLite at least ...
 
10:22 PM
@pekr Don't forget a better console! :)
 
exactly
fuck all the console2 etc., I just don't care
R3 having that ugly black crap for years, completly ruined the experience
and in the end Carl noticed, it even cant't be used as shell, LOL :-)
it is just that now it at least work ...
there is console branch for Red .... it will have its own one ... and even GUI one, e.g. on Android ...
you can make jokes, but in the end, R3 console is a joke ...
 
we already have http/https
DBs - we have mysql x 2
 
ditch it
 
Ftp - just needs some tweaking
yeah .. so console is main issue
 
well, I used ftp from time to time. Pity Doc is not going to support it either ... he considers it being a complicated and obsolete protocol :-)
 
10:25 PM
Call ? I thought @earl had that sorted
 
maybe I don't need pop3 much, but smtp to send an email might be still handy and I used it quite a bit ...
well, there might be the CURL way for that ...
 
smtp is done
secure smtp also done
pop3 done
 
where?
 
on my github repo
 
I am lost in all those repos ...
what is the base for Earl's repos?
 
10:28 PM
@rebolek was working on a GUI console
not sure what happened to that.
 
ah, official R3 one? It would be really benefical, if Carl would allow Earl or someone else to take over ...
 
So, what we need is a web page to tie all these things together
 
we will see, what will come up from all those discussions with Patrick Stewart
 
Perhaps @pekr you could build the web page?
I'd ask Patrick Stewart for bounty $$ first to see if he's real
Otherwise, I'd just ignore
 
I did not want to comment there, because it feels kind of strange - I have a money, and how is that you are not organised yet? It seems to me, he wants the (non existant) community to do some heavy work, which he is supposed to organise :-)
Well, HostileFork put there much more realistic comments (from my point of view)
 
10:34 PM
I know you say you lack coding skills to help but you could do the web pages that update people on what is happening and where to get there
Then all Carl has to do is provide a link to that site on rebol.com
 
I think that rebolsource.net is a good start ...
 
@pekr I don't think that is the purpose of that site
It's for downloading binaries for new builds
Otherwise something would have been done by now
 
@HappySpoon A question of time and someone doing it.
 
@earl If you're happy for that site to be used for that, then perhaps Pekr could do it?
He has the skills
to either do it, or arrange for someone to do it.
 
I've been thinking about putting up some articles and maybe a news section there for quite some time.
But I don't think we lack in possible places where to put stuff.
 
10:44 PM
It's our current go to site for binaries ... so it's a good idea
just need someone who has the time and skill set
taking over rebol.net looks like it's too large a task for the current developers
might as well start from scratch
 

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