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12:17 AM
posted on April 27, 2017 by hostilefork

This does some performance improvement of the debug build in general, along with making it so that the debug build with asserts w/o symbols uses the optimizer. (There's not much reason not to use an optimized build if it's un-debuggable due to lack of symbols...) Performance improvements were based on noticing spikes in callgrind, largely related to function facade macros being called oft

 
 
3 hours later…
3:13 AM
Off the top of my head...
Some features that I have found useful in Rebol:
* ODBC - an important one for me at the moment since I have a hackish accounting system that depends on it.
* Sqlite driver - I guess I can move to using ODBC instead of a specific Sqlite driver.
* Encap is useful if there is a way to talk to the user, e.g. tiny local http server, or gui.
* Occasionally Winapi functions or other libraries. If this can be done by ffi, great - I just don't know how to do that.
* Occasionally being able to script a console program by writing to it's sys input depending on what is read f
2
 
 
2 hours later…
4:52 AM
@Brett Chris had an sqlite driver for rebol 2 so could ask him if he has plans on updating it to ren-c
 
5:16 AM
Current webserver status of the new PiTS-It! prototype based on #Rebol and @Raspberry_Pi. . https://t.co/dTLPrWwU46
 
 
1 hour later…
6:31 AM
@Brett about tiny webserver: look at webserver based on httpd
 
7:05 AM
@HostileFork Thanks for the summary of Redbol GUI systems. Your suggestions seem wise and open minded ...
 
 
1 hour later…
8:32 AM
@pekr Well, cynical, but yes...still open-minded. Even if I personally can't work within Red's process or they mine, it doesn't mean we can't see where the approaches lead. Having worked in software for a long time, I think sometimes the most "re-use" we wind up getting isn't about code getting re-used, just ideas ...it's almost as if YouTube videos demoing a feature are the actual "reusable" components.
Since Red is so focused on the GUI, I see no value in a divergent spec being developed over here.
If it can be done, and compel the world, and get more than 5 retweets...let them be the ones to do it. I actually liked that voting simulation thing, as an example, if it could be honed further.
 
I was mostly referring to GUI. I can understand @GiuseppeChillemi 's point of view (using R3 GUI in terms of his work), but the truth is - RebGUI is for R2 only, development is not happening. R3-GUI is abandoned by Saphirion themselves, Atronix is not using it ...
 
Well Red doesn't have to worry for now about me being on their turf with GUI dialect development, I'm more interested in interactive debugging.
 
On the other hand, even if Red/View does not have widgets like tree-view or grid yet, the soundation is solid and tries to investigate the direction, which was never taken - utilising native OS functionality instead of already abandoned AGG library.
 
As I've said, this is their bet. This is what they think other tools aren't doing right, this is the selling point, so I'll let them sell it.
And, I also like Red/System, which seems underemphasized
 
It also provides identical functionality, apart form Effects pipeline - Draw, Shape dialects are already present. Not to mention text being DirectDraw based, smoother and HW accelerated. New text-box (no PR for that) provides a rich-text - the functionality R2 neverd had.
 
8:39 AM
That's @rebolek's client?
 
Yes, not polished, hopefully @rebolek will not punish me for posting the screenshot ... left list don't use text-box yet ...
 
Well, we know that, the interesting story is not about the specific experience but about size, and I wonder how that could be made more "visceral"
 
Those are just first attempts utilising new rich-text (text-box!) element ....
 
e.g. how might it be, that the app itself somehow tells a story about its footprint?
Maybe some widget or status bar thing, about the number of kilobytes of code running
 
Yes, many oportunities to market the thing.
 
8:42 AM
Or in the title bar? I just mean, that, using one's imagination to understand the relevance of something is hard.
You sort of have to beat people over the head, a bit. Think of Bret Victor's demos.
 
@GiuseppeChillemi should realise, that there is mostly noone recently, pushing RebGUI nor R3-GUI further, that's all. I am not saying that to discourage anyone from anything, just as a reality. Right now, it seems, the only Redbol GUI related effort happens in terms of Red.
 
Red might want to be "noisier" when starting up an app, draw the frame and animate and do some sort of beat-you-over-the-head-with-what-the-point is.
 
And yes, there are many questions left unanswered. E.g. - what happens in terms of more complicated widgets as Grid for example? E.g. Windows provides several options. How do we wrap there and stay compatible e.g. towards macOS?
We might end-up building our own widgets using Draw anyway?
 
@pekr Well, as above, I've said that if I were being pushed to make some GUI dialect tomorrow, I would swipe QML and not copy Red, because Red is less proven.
 
I know avout QML, Troltech stole the show from VID some time ago :-)
 
8:46 AM
I say that with a sort-of-I-don't-know-that-much-about-QML hedge. But I know what it's built on, Qt.
e.g. I understand QML is just a layer to keep you from having to know C++ to build a UI
But I know the C++ it's building
 
We will see. Noone says, we will not see alternative GUI engine using Qt in future, if some part of community decides to do so?
 
@HostileFork it is around 30kB, including JSON and MarkDown.
If it was build in Qt it would be 30MB.
 
And also - it all depends upon what's the target? For small tools/utils, Red/View might be fully sufficient. I can hardly imagine e.g. Adobe looking into Red and Red/System, thinking about porting Photoshop to View :-)
 
@rebolek Qt did recent work, on size, and it's not as bad as it was. If you look above in the Ren-C asserts debug build, we just got 6x faster :-)
(admittedly, only 20% gain in actual code efficiency, the rest was just saying it's okay to optimize the asserting-non-symbol-having build)
Just saying, sometimes, if you start valuing a metric, you can perform well on the metric... it's not that you couldn't it's just maybe no one was paying attention.
One thing to note about Qt is, that, if you are running on an open source Linux running KDE, it is effectively zero cost.
Because it is like calling "native" code, in that case.
I think this is an interesting point, of course if you run Linux-Gnome or Windows or Mac or Android or iPhone, yes you will have an abstraction layer
But it is worth mentioning that one can choose a system where Qt is your built-ins, and I use KDE, so that's me
@rebolek Well, this is the marketer in me, but I think indeed if Red tried to sort of make it more útrobní...you would maybe find a way to sort of communicate the scope of the source size as an animation while things load, or find some way to put it in front of people... to help them know, "it is small".
Just wherever possible, find a way to remind people the app is different, but in a good way.
It's hard when they might just see it as "simplistic", so anything you can do to pull people into the marketing aspect of why simple is better, that's important.
 
@HostileFork that's of course possible, but this is not finished app, but a work in progress. Actually showing some loading animation would slow things down, it opens almost instantly.
 
9:00 AM
@rebolek Well, you can't totally think of it that way. For instance, progress bars. The best progress bar concept is not to put up a progress bar always, but to wait until an operation has taken some time and then put it up. But if your operation finishes quickly, you don't want flicker...so if you get to the point of putting up a progress bar, you need to artificially hold it up long enough that your app doesn't look random blinky.
 
@HostileFork I understand, I am just saying that before I can work on polish like this, more fundamental things must be done. Right now it doesn't even mark read messages, for instance.
 
@rebolek Well, I wasn't speaking about that program in particular, I was just speaking about how Red programs in general might help emphasize what makes them special, vs. just old/simple/archaic. What is it in the experience that helps tell the "brand story". So it wouldn't be your program doing this, but something common and engaging about any program written in Red.
How do you remind people they're using something different and that this difference is good? What subtle touches do you put on to get that psychological effect?
 
Good points ...
 
Anyway, what we all agree on is that people who are interested in the documentation, design, and marketing of all the various Rebol GUIs should focus that attention on Red
So if people like that I think that, great
Ren Garden may add some GUI stuff but it would not be an invention in its own right, no design work is going to be done... it would just be some Qt thing rehashed as Rebol
@Brett If you have an example of what the ODBC behavior you need is, from the Rebol side, then post that somewhere. We are in a better position than in the past to write extensions for this.
e.g. write the test program that you use today that you'd ask to have work in Ren-C
 
 
6 hours later…
3:18 PM
Well I'm duly honoured to have been included into 2 Github organisations today :)
@HostileFork - However I'm not sure how you would like me to help you on Wally the Walnut :)
 
 
4 hours later…
7:39 PM
@HostileFork - You happy with repl! object (name) and whether this should live in in host-start.r ?
Everyone else - Any thoughts on system/options/home and system/user/home, %user.r etc.
 
 
1 hour later…
8:55 PM
@draegtun I'm happy if you're happy, and if it doesn't make things crash. My general thoughts are that the userspace stuff like this belong to the users. :-) To me the r3.exe host is an "app" and we don't get in too much trouble letting it evolve and have people tweak it as needed over time...forethought is a bit less critical than with the language itself.
I think that system/options is probably overcrowded, but there's not a lot of precedent for how to break it up. Offhand, I prefer the idea of it having more subcategories. Is system/user a good way to do it? I do know that we want to have the host add categories vs. needing to build them into the core, so it would be good to have less in %sysobj.r and have sub-objects established by %host-start.r
Tangential thought: I was thinking about infix and its influence on dialecting. For instance, I had a thought that assert [<heavy> x = some-long-running-test y z] might be a dialect which let you use <heavy> to signal only to do the assert if you're running the "heavy" checks. But if you don't know whether the next thing is enfixed, you can't mix that with evaluation with 100% confidence.
Before, we could say assert [<heavy> | x = some-long-running-test y z] with confidence, but now hard quotes can see expression barriers, so it's still not 100% unless you say assert [<heavy> (x = some long-running-test y z)]
But, one might see this as an ecology thing, where the assert's rules about tags just win. If it sees a tag literally, gives it meaning, and advances the block...then the DO/NEXT can't look back at it. So you just get a case where if you have an enfixed operator which looks back at a tag and wanted it to mean something, you lose unless you did assert [(<heavy> -> z)] or whatever. Otherwise, assert [<heavy> -> z] would be processed as if it were assert [<heavy> (-> z)]
Actually, I guess BAR! is safe, because in the current model it's not a word and you know it can't look back, only be looked back at
Didn't realize I hadn't pushed the performance-improvements PR to master yet. Just did that.
 
9:25 PM
... doesn't compile for me ...
gcc -c -DTO_LINUX -DTO_LINUX_X86 -DREB_API -O2 -Werror -Wextra -Wall -Wchar-subscripts -Wwrite-strings -Wundef -Wformat=2 -Wdisabled-optimization -Wlogical-op -Wredundant-decls -Woverflow -Wpointer-arith -Wparentheses -Wmain -Wsign-compare -Wtype-limits -Wclobbered -Wno-long-long -Wno-cast-qual -Wno-conversion -Wno-strict-overflow -m32 -DENDIAN_LITTLE -DHAS_LL_CONSTS -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64 -fno-stack-protector -U_FORTIFY_SOURCE -DUSE_STRERROR_NOT_STRERROR_R -I. -I../src/include/ -I../src/codecs/ ../src/core/l-scan.c -o objs/l-scan.o
@HostileFork ^ Sorry, have to leave now ... as always :-)
 
@ingo One must wonder why that is, as if you are in a room with thousands of computers and swinging around by ropes to mad dash from one to another. :-) Attempted patch here. That warning is a shifty one, not all compilers give it intelligently, but we have turned warnings way up...
 
10:31 PM
Note: @MarkI, @ingo, others: the people who think there should be a difference between :x/(y) and pick* x y or x/(y): z and poke x y z need to invest time in defense of their position if they expect that position to be heeded
I am not, at present, swayed any more by the "files can have integer names" argument for why file/1 cannot act differently than file/a...any more than I am swayed by the "blocks can contain integers" argument for why block/1 cannot act differently than block/a
2
I'm not thrilled in the first place by the file/word concept doing an appending operation vs. a more conventional "picking" operation. I'm not sure if it sets good precedent, whereas to me it feels like the unification with picking does help set up a precedent.
 
@HostileFork I wouldn't quite agree with that—as with any app and likely the first app associated to the language that most will use and the one that has kept folks here using it, seems just as critical to make sure it is well structured.
 
@rgchris I said "a bit". The good news is, that non-C-bit-fiddling-architects can make these decisions.
 
In the past we've had system/console (I see a system/repl in there these days), system/view, etc. I wonder if we should have a system/components (or parts) as a map that allows for some extensibility.
system/parts/console or system/parts/view
 
@rgchris With modularization, it could be system/modules aliased to modules
I think we should give serious thought to this idea of if append %foo.txt "stuff" is more useful appending to the filesystem entity's data itself than getting %foo.txtstuff, and if that is the case, then we might reconsider the very notion of FILE!'s stringness and how that stringness is exposed and manipulated.
As it stands, the limited number of verbs starts getting you into situations where you are tacking an /append refinement onto write, and then you get write/seek/part %foo.txt 128 256** and other things, instead of change/part (at %foo.txt 128) 256
Where at %foo.txt 128 would give you a PORT!, with position 128.
 
10:47 PM
I'm for the status quo on this one. If you want to append or change a file, open a port.
Prefer being able to manipulate file names.
 
@rgchris Didn't say you couldn't manipulate them, you'd just string alias them and work with their data as a string. But in any case, the point is that trying to make a datatype serve two masters, and people arguing that file: %foo.txt with file/1 not being #"f", need to weigh into the balance all the impliciations.
 
Would would file/1 be otherwise?
 
>> file: %foo.txt
== %foo.txt

>> file/1
== %foo.txt/1
It is, today in R3-Alpha, otherwise.
And the argument above from ingo and MarkI is that they do not think file/1 being #"f" is a good idea.
 
Oh, right, no—would prefer file/1 be #"f" than changing the stringy nature of file!. Thought your [file / 1] suggestion would be workable.
 
My biases to changing the stringy nature are guided by big picture issues, which are cross-cutting to seemingly unrelated things like words-of on blocks cause assertion failure. e.g. I know that there is not today a good logic driving why some things mutate files into ports implicitly while others do not, and that the system doesn't "gel" on that point.
So as string! file and as object! port appeal to me in the sense that, you are able to have an interface to the file to treat it like a string, wherein changes to it through that interface are reflected immediately
 
10:58 PM
I don't see the inconsistency—there are limited ways for turning files to ports(?)
 
case SYM_READ:
case SYM_WRITE:
case SYM_QUERY:
case SYM_OPEN:
case SYM_CREATE:
case SYM_DELETE:
case SYM_RENAME:
Why just those?
The magical 7?
And as above, I do not myself care for the over-refining of WRITE to put SEEK and APPEND and PART into it. I don't know that I like WRITE at all.
So once you are in the mode of thinking that the way you append to a port is with plain old APPEND, instead of tagging an ever expanding number of actions as refinements to this "write"
Then you start missing the fact that you used to be able to write/seek/part %foo.txt ...
AT becomes SEEK. READ becomes COPY.
 
append at open/direct %foo.txt 12 "Something"
WRITE seems overloaded as a 'convenience'.
 
Now you have a dangling port
 
Indeed. Should be handled properly.
 
Okay, so now your good example gets longer, again... also you wouldn't APPEND AT, you'd INSERT, which would be slow for a file (well on a normal filesystem). So you're drifting ever further from insert at %foo.txt 12 "Something"
And as you drift further from that, you drift further from the value-add, the "get what you pay for" elegance
 
11:06 PM
It's still nothing more than adding OPEN/CLOSE to whatever your statement is. Doesn't seem onerous.
 
Well, I guess that leaks a port too, if you used AT and it opens a port
Actually, wouldn't have to
 
Seems to open a can of worms.
 
Well, anyway, the motivator here was a smaller thing to try and make progress in other areas, but this is the kind of problem we are facing in general, as I said with the port/object duality as well.
 
I feel all this is just trying to hide ports. Not sure that's necessarily the best direction.
(port fanboy that I am...)
 
Well for today, the main thing is to get the people arguing against file/1 giving you a character to accept it, so we can move forward on path retooling.
We're also getting into a change which some may not like, which is that block/thing-not-in-block will give you an error and not a blank.
This brings it in sync with object/thing-not-in-object, or just thing-not-defined-generally
While pick object 'thing-not-in-object, pick block 'thing-not-in-block will give you blank, and PICK* will give you void
So there's a sort of compromise here. Pathing is used to dispatch functions and has generally higher stakes on things that are not present. PICK does not do this.
But, I've been wondering if :block/thing-not-in-block should perhaps give you blank if not present (conflating with being present, but blank), and a different notation like @block/thing-not-in-block be used to get voids.
to-value :block/thing-not-in-block is a bit verbose for blankifying voids.
 
11:28 PM
I do think that it's good to denote somehow at the callsite that you're aware the thing might not be present, and :foo/bar is not a bad way to draw attention to that...modulo that it doesn't always mean that, because your intent could also be trying to fetch a function without calling it.
 

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