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3:24 AM
@iceflow19 Well, getting it to build hostilefork.com is not the same as building the test suite all the way through with sanitization without a crash, which is still the driving goal that brought all this up...
So a few steps until the improved implementation. It's just promising.
 
Well hopefully everything will go well with the full test suite.
On a side note I've been working on trying to ductape r3 to r2 in order to use Lest with Cheyenne. I'm attempting to use Red as a quick and easy wrapper around the nasty Extension/Host API, but I'm getting an access violation when calling Do_String. Is there anything I need to do for init and start? I'm currently just passing nulls and zeros on them.
 
@iceflow19 You need to do what host_main does: github.com/rebol/rebol/blob/master/src/os/host-main.c
That includes the awkward-to-link-in table of Host_Lib = &Host_Lib_Init;
 
3:48 AM
@HostileFork Would it even be possible to access it from Red?
Its not like the host lib externs any of its guts nor can Red static link. I'm almost thinking its a lost cause till Ren/C rolls around.
Or I could reuse the host-lib code and write the wrapper in C...
Or I could forgo the whole mess of trying to get lest to run in RSP with cheyenne and just code everything to run client-side...
Decisions, decisions...
 
4:07 AM
@iceflow19 You should be able to wrap it into your own Do_Rebol_String. No harm in that. Doing strings as an abstract interface isn't going to change much, if all you want is string in and string out... (it doesn't quite give you that, even)
As I said, not much surprise the console never went anywhere with that interface. :-/
 
4:18 AM
@iceflow19 If all you want is string in and string out, you could even make something like Tcl expect for Red (or build if it doesn't exist), which would be useful in its own right: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expect
A sort of parse-driven Expect would be neat
 
I tried driving Rebol3 from the Rebol2 through call but was having trouble with the std io.
 
@iceflow19 Offhand I haven't tried any such things and I don't/haven't used Rebol2...but I know there were a couple of different windows executable forms in terms of their I/O hook
 
Well it throws a Rebol Host Error, because of stdio being open.
On R3's end
 
4:37 AM
@iceflow19 Hrrm. Well, is what you're doing something that can be done by running a script that generates an output file each time and you read that file?
(In the "temporary solution ideas" space)
 
I could do that.
 
Probably best to go with temporary vs. dealing too much with hacking on the Rebol3 sources right now
 
I just remembered... Couldn't I use 0MQ to communicate, I think Kaj wrote bindings for both r2 and r3...
 
Perhaps, never tried it
 
Anyways, Im about to doze off. GNight! and Thanks.
 
4:46 AM
@iceflow19 l8r...
 
5:10 AM
The static function table for "ioctls" in Rebol to abstract Windows from UNIX with functions like OS_WRITE which are implemented differently for both might be a bit backwards.
Those functions are used to implement the port model...which is already intended as a level of abstraction. Why have this fixed table, instead of each port category on each platform implement itself however it wants? You get less of a monolithic situation.
Of course that means natives like PRINT wouldn't be calling some kind of OS_WRITE(...) ioctl; rather it would go through a port write.
This is already mostly how it works, it just seems that Rebol has tried to create two steps of standardized abstraction when it should focus on the one that has relevance... namely the port! interface.
There is not going to be some sudden rush from the world to adopt the grab bag of IOCTLs that host kit has tried to specify. So why attempt to standardize it, and call the functions by index in a table instead of linking things up the normal way?
 
5:44 AM
Google creates OS for IoT (althought imo 32MB is still huge amount of RAM) and Weave - language for devices to talk one to each other (they steal on our dialects - are we late to the game with Ren, again?) - theverge.com/2015/5/28/8683147/…
 
@pekr Looks like Weave is JSON.
There are many ways to import and process JSON now, and its simplicity is its strength. People building the Rebin/Redbin variants with protocol buffers/etc. JSON has indeed been very successful. Has it won? I dunno. What are the winning criteria?
Did JavaScript and HTML5 win? Is this winning?
2
To me the late to the game is just about not having the system and story in order.
 
 
2 hours later…
7:28 AM
@MarkI Looking into it, I don't think the Redo_Function needs to do stack munging. All it needs to do is build a new stack from the old data, and when the evaluation is done pop its DS_TOP result into the result slot of the prior DSF. The stack jumbling it does to avoid a new stack frame makes no sense... it pushes all the new arguments higher and then copies them back? What exactly did it think it was saving? :-/
I did a quick rewrite of it at first to copy out the stack and push the values in place, then realizing that broke my stack value address stability rule because I'd dropped stack space before the caller who'd stacked it knew about it.
Forget that. New frame. Three more stack pushes, but no memmoving, and a lot less headache.
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== none
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== true
 
 
2 hours later…
9:57 AM
May 18 at 20:26, by Shixin Zeng
Balanced stack is also something I would like rebol to have
@ShixinZeng I'd tried to ignore Redo_Func as long as I could and not worry what it was supposed to be doing. As far as I can tell there's no good reason to not push another frame. Was covering up stack imbalance too.
 
 
1 hour later…
11:27 AM
Ladies and gentlebots: First successful complete run of the rebolsource tests, with address sanitizer on (and all the other things; no zero-filling of allocs, no memory pooling so bounds checking in effect). Zero crashes.
6
(Er, I meant to say bots and gentlemen, or some variant, but whatever. You get the idea. Been staring at screens too long and it's time to let that be enough for a day. Surprised it worked.)
 
11:41 AM
Just log in into Altme and put that into an announce group, it will appear here with all the glory ;-)
 
@pekr Still work to be done before "announce". Another week, always another week...
But I feel that was a prerequisite.
 
Be carefull. As there is a known saying in Amiga world, it sounds like "in two weeks", which turned out to be - never :-)
 
Yes, but tightening is a bit different than feature expansion; it's not spiraling out of control... it's getting a spiral under control and then refusing to go back into the spiral.
 
12:06 PM
@HostileFork Seems like there're a few things that are half-baked in R3. The trouble is which way to complete them, to bake or not ...
But I am confident that you are making great progress, kudos, kudos.
 
@MarkI Starting from scratch can just mean making different mistakes... and a long path before having basic satisfaction of seeing improvement affect code you've got. It's a balance. (I usually think the best idea involves time travel and changing the past to be more organized so as to expedite the present; but then people start getting on even more tangents about what's possible and what isn't.)
2
 
1:03 PM
@HostileFork Cribbed from sandofsky.com/blog/git-workflow.html: Michael Crichton once said, "Great books aren't written. They're rewritten."
There are times when history needs to be cleaned up.
 
 
6 hours later…
6:44 PM
@RebolBot
proto: [a]
foo: make function! reduce [proto [print a]]
foo 10
insert proto [surprise]
help foo
foo 10
@RebolBot delete
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
10
USAGE:
    FOO a

DESCRIPTION:
    (undocumented)
    FOO is a function value.

ARGUMENTS:
    surprise
    a
10
 
@redbot
proto: [a]
foo: make function! reduce [proto [print a]]
foo 10
insert proto [surprise]
help foo
foo 10
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
*** Script error: make does not allow function for its type argument
*** Where: make
*** Stack: do-console all not unset? set do first head reduce do* _execute if all not unset? set do first head reduce do* foo make
 
Moving toward a more rigorous and correct future, the question does have to be asked about the general hazards of a non-copying MAKE FUNCTION!. Recently we noticed another side-effect of not copying... that you can't pass in a series that's not at its head...
>> source func
@RebolBot delete
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
func: make function! [[
    "Defines a user function with given spec and body."
    spec [block!] {Help string (opt) followed by arg words (and opt type and string)}
    body [block!] "The body block of the function"
][
    make function! copy/deep reduce [spec body]
]]
 
7:01 PM
BrianH said that not copying was there to give more flexibility... but I think the flexibility (which really means "performance benefit if you don't want to make a copy") is at too great a cost of *bad things that could happen".
Ren/C thus will copy/deep in make function!, and remove the copy/deep from the mezzanine function generators. If performance tuning is to be attacked, it should be done through something more systemically valuable and stable... like a copy-on-write feature for all copied blocks.
Anyone care to argue against?
 
 
1 hour later…
8:13 PM
@HostileFork Where'd I put my BrianH hat? Oh, right, I didn't have the head for it ... :)
 
8:29 PM
@MarkI Tweaking some of the performance guts and looking at the "there's no way to make this faster... unless" I find the hat starts seeming like it fits, one begins to think "ah, but maybe if you tweaked a byte here."
But correctness first. And I think I may have figured out how to implement COPY/DEEP in Copy-on-Write in a non-useless way. It's "different", but...
The idea being that for a copy on write COPY/DEEP to have a point, then if you have some large structure 10,000 series deep it should not produce 10,000 REBSERs at the moment of COPY. That's not beneficial; you're descending into things so much and copying most of it. You should just make one new REBSER: "I am a deeply cloned version of that other one, and if it changes or I change, our copy status must unlink"
So a Series_Ref would need a way of encoding what "view" it is, by carrying along not only the REBSER* it is looking at but in the third pointer slot (now available) the REBSER* of its deep clone group. The field would be filled at the time of copy, and preserved as you pick down through subseries.
Hm, I was going to say you could use const and mutable accesses to trigger when you did the actual deep copy, and that there were some tricks for knowing about the modification on both sides... but then again, even if you extract a const REBSER* it can be mutated out from under you when it was a "view". Perhaps no way to do it if REBSERs are to be extracted; it would only work if you kept the paired up with their view.
I guess as written you do need 10,000 REBSERs. Sigh...they just will be stubs until you step into them. But you have to somehow alias it so that the copied values in the block data appear to have your stub REBSER in it, not the original.
There's nowhere to put this "view" of a blocklike-series data where values in it can say that, which suggests that a read alone has to be enough to trigger the copy. Sigh.
 
 
3 hours later…
11:55 PM
@HostileFork Currently thinking outside of the box and on a theoretical level. Do we have to copy deep? Depending on how you look at it, any given reference to a series theoretically can only be in one of two states: convergent or divergent. Convergent meaning that it references a series shared by another reference, divergent meaning that the referenced series is unique.
All series created without a make operation would by default be divergent (unique). A make operation would color all references convergent.
 

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