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12:01 AM
A read operation against a given block would ignore the status. A write operation would create a shallow copy of the block preserving children references, color the reference to divergent, and then perform the mutation.
Read operations then would be quick and have constant time, write operations on the other hand would have varying time based on how much needs to be done for the immediate shallow copy.
The above is me spit-balling, but within what very limited knowledge that I have of the problem. An idea is better than no ideas...
Wait that wont work if its the references being colored. If only one could ship blocks with another field in the data structure itself.
 
12:59 AM
@iceflow19 It's worth it to think outside the box... but ATM the data structure really is a sort of tinkertoy, with PROTECT and PROTECT/DEEP as sort of the only tools for narrowing the powers something has to manipulate it.
 
1:53 AM
@iceflow19 Could try QuarterMaster as well—takes most of the decision-making out of RSP and back to Rebol. An example site: github.com/rgchris/Red-Lang.org (caveat is that it's also Rebol 2)
@pekr Is this done, or is rebol.info's AltMe down again?
 
@rgchris Is that the current code running red-lang?
Or is that the new one that was being worked on? Is there an instance of it up running currently?
 
No—that's still on Blogger. It's running here: red.reb4.me (I wrote a script to populate it with XML export from Blogger).
(haven't run that script recently)
Doc didn't go for it as it's a dynamic site—wanted static pages instead.
 
Have you ran any performance/load tests on QM?
 
The stylings are entirely my whim.
@iceflow19 Nothing rigorous. It is fairly quick when used with Cheyenne, but again I don't have any formal performance measures.
Should only be as slow/fast as most other Rebol CGI scripts on a given setup though.
 
 
2 hours later…
4:26 AM
Finally got around to using Rebol to filter out the "using C++ style comments in ANSI C" warnings; which I was going to do at some point. Besides the comments (which could be stripped prior to building, anyway) there are 58 violations GCC picks up regarding C89 compliance. Any votes on if it's worth fixing? :-)
 
4:39 AM
I say get rid of the VLA, do a build in the matrix with the pedantic warnings on as C89, filter them down and notice if any new ones pop up. If it's just the comments and the initializer element one... then consider that to be fine.
(The VLA being my "blame", as code copied from trying to just get the HaikuOS port running...)
 
5:43 AM
@HostileFork At the risk of sounding like an Ewok, yep, yep.
@HostileFork And you're not mentioning the + 13? I am shocked. Shocked, I say!
 
@MarkI Some issues are "inside the fence". Some are "outside the fence". I'm... putting fenceposts around, and traffic cones, and such.
 
You're not calling the + 13 a fencepost, are you?
 
I don't know. I really am actually usually busy looking at other things when I point one of these things out.
I mean "I don't know if this code matters or if I intend it to all go bye"
 
@HostileFork I was being sarcastic. There're bigger fish.
 
@MarkI Did you read what I said about just generally not buying into the Host_Lib IOCTLs and wanting port schemes to be pick-and-choose and linked by functions normally, instead of some offset into a table?
 
5:51 AM
@HostileFork Read, yes. Still working on comprehending.
I do not know enough about the freedom/restriction trade-offs.
 
We can guess by reverse-engineering it that Rebol2 had a lot of #ifdefs in the interpreter core, and when it needed to do one thing on one platform it would call one API and when it needed another it would call something else.
So you would call a native like PRINT and it probably had #ifdefs in it
 
And Host-Kit was the R3 way of doing this better?
 
Well, it was the way of getting rid of the #ifdefs I imagine
 
Presumably also better then, because just that would be silly :)
 
Well it was based on the idea of not open sourcing Rebol and getting rid of the #ifdefs
So you pass in a table of functions that provide what Rebol needs as callouts on your platform.
 
5:55 AM
I prefer to think of it as "clean abstraction" rather than "code infringement protection", but don't quote me.
@HostileFork I think the core idea is sound, and have done similar things myself.
Mostly because you can't trust OS or compiler writers, you always have to implement it yourself.
Hence the "kit" part.
 
Well as it turns out... mostly what this is used to do is to implement the real abstraction layer, namely ports...
 
But the actual choice of what to put in the table is the hard part.
Which is why I am starting with the Rebol model, it's the closest to successful I've seen yet.
 
Well making it a table is a kind of "we can't / won't relink" issue. The idea of pinning things down vs. recompiling. And adding functions at the end and deprecating them and not changing signatures, etc.
 
@HostileFork You say that like the rest of it is ... not good.
 
@MarkI I think the port model seems like a good idea.
 
6:00 AM
@HostileFork I would not vote for a TV that made me recompile its control panel in order to turn it on.
 
Needs some hammering out, but it is a nice way to look at things.
Yes, but if Rebol core only spoke to ports when it needed system services, that would make more sense.
 
@HostileFork Go on ... !
 
Well, that's the message. Ports are the abstraction; and then make it easy to load in an extension that supplies the code for a port.
The chokepoint of a common new-C-facade which tries to C-like-abstract both Posix and Windows APIs is a bad chokepoint
It will serve no other purpose in the universe, it will be a lowest common denominator of some kind, it will be junky and buggy, it will be glommed in a table and indexed by integer instead of linked the way it should be.
 
@HostileFork ^-- I think you've just defined platform-independent linking.
 
Define something like the clipboard port abstraction, have it backed by POSIX C code when you're loading a clipboard port extension on POSIX. Back it by Windows code when you're doing it on Windows. Forget about it on platforms you don't feel like writing it.
@MarkI One might say... if you have a working C compiler, you already have that.
In terms of how dynamic or static it is, if it's possible to load in N ports or extensions or whatever (where N may be 1) into a running executable, great.
 
6:06 AM
@HostileFork True, it's a new world once you throw a C compiler into the toolbox.
 
But current Rebol compiles aren't even dynamic in that sense.
Apparently it has been done though
 
@HostileFork I'm sure it wasn't supposed to be ruled out.
 
Anyway, generally speaking, I'm just saying "this host lib table is a dead end, focus on the ports"
It's mostly there already, I'm just saying go all there
 
@HostileFork Totally agreed. It can always be revisited.
It is also possible that Carl engineered both ways just in case, and only one makes sense in a post-Carl world.
@HostileFork Re "serves no other purpose" -- not if it enables easy implementation of every other purpose, on every platform :)
 
I am a fan of the gimmick of if you say read scheme://asdfkjasldfjkasd then it breaks it up into an open, a read, and a close all together.
 
6:11 AM
@HostileFork Can I also do it?
 
@MarkI That's up to DO at this point, since DO is not an action...
But the question of "what is an action" and "what is a utype" is all stuff that needs foundational study.
Actions are a sort of bizarre suggestion that Rebol has a kind of OOP dispatch on the type of the first parameter to a function for polymorphism... yet they are... integers.
 
@HostileFork For example, how bad an idea it would be if utypes introduced their own new syntax :)
 
@MarkI Trying to understand UTYPE is a bit like what Jack Handey said about mankind: "Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself. Basically, it's made up of two separate words — 'mank' and 'ind.' What do these words mean? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind."
It's made up of two separate words... 'UT' and 'YPE'. What do these words mean?
I still am leaning on the belief that objects need spec blocks, and in those spec blocks the objects can describe dispatch preferences for what you might call "utype" or "action" like behaviors
 
The cleanest Rebol yet: start with nothing, then introduce the "block!" utype ...
 
And in my little imagined world, I still like my idea that has can be the single-arity object specifier (analogue to DOES) for making objects that don't wish to describe their participation in things like ADD or READ or whatever actions.
Then I guess object as the arity-2 version which has a spec block with more complexity than just the guts... and in that include UTYPE-y things
 
6:21 AM
Half of Rebol types have no real syntaxes anyway, well, not different from block! at least.
 
Well once the interpreter stack byte stuff stops wagging the dog and we see what's left, it might all get more fun.
 
@HostileFork I feel the same way about my upcoming scan resolutions. It's exciting!
 
They'll be a big help, I'm sure. I've patched around anything crashing but avoided it for the most part.
Doing some non programming stuff this evening but I am going through and getting build matrix back working, making sure every DEBUG/NDEBUG variant works with all the language standards.
And that's looking okay. So what I have for the most part now is...a giant performance wreck.
But, locked down well enough that I can actually "optimize with confidence" without sticking weird stuff in weird places and not documenting it, and I can use the C++ build to catch mistakes that the C can't
Lots of weirdness. Reb_Series_Ref, for instance, only had a REBSER and an index. So there was a spare pointer-sized thing. In it you find: github.com/rebol/rebol/blob/…
Er, REBINT back; "used for DO stack linking". A reader might quite reasonably go: "What?"
Why do series references have an integer in them, "used for DO stack linking"?
Knowing exactly what that means and why is a puzzle not immediately on the tip of people's tongue... but it's all about the idea that the data stack would re-use the implementation of a BLOCK!. With the lack of a specialized structure for a stack frame, you are paying for full values with everything you push.
 
@HostileFork Um ... wow.
 
The new stack concept--providing an important feature of address stability if the stack needs to grow--can also tailor the stack segments to be customized, and not be beholden to the logic of the garbage collector.
So goodbye to that. :-) (gone!)
You want an index in a piece of the stack segment being added into the chain that isn't the size of a full value? No problem; put it in the stack segment struct. Don't go poking it into value types in their "unused" portions and making the whole rest of the system paranoid. :-/
Having fully liberated that third slot in series references is what got me interested earlier in contemplating the COPY/DEEP ideas I started having... where you could do a deep copy of a series and the third value would track the "owning view"... the series that you'd cloned or some other abstraction.
But I think I disproved having quite everything around to work without keeping some lists somewhere that might wind up being equivalent to making all the stubbed REBSERs I was trying to avoid in the "copy/deep that only makes one REBSER for something of arbitrary depth".
My trick might work if a "real REBSER*" was actually a REBSER_PTR struct value with two pointers in it. :-/
Anyway, not happening, so I'll look at it all at a later time.
On a more positive note, did a little bit of scripting with Rebol the tool again after a while and... y'know, it is still something that does have a way of feeling nice when it's working well. So while @MarkI and I might resemble some people, it is nice to think of cleaning it up.
 
6:57 AM
Am I being punked?
>> 0-1-1
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 1-Jan-0000
 
Try that one at home kiddies!
 
>> 0 - 1 - 1
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== -2
 
Funny guy. I'm serious here:
>> make date! "0-1-1"
 
6:59 AM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 1-Jan-0001
 
That prints 1-Jan-0010 here at home ...
>> do load {make date! {0-1-1}}
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 1-Jan-0001
 
er ... argh.
 
; Hi I'm Ren/C on 64-bit linux
>> make date! "0-1-1"
== 1-Jan-0000
; Hi I'm some rebolsource.net download on OS/X
>> make date! "0-1-1"
== 1-Jan-0000
 
>> system/version
 
7:02 AM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 2.101.0.4.2
 
Windows-only bug. Great. But thanks, HF!
We need a warehouse full of bot-clones on cloud vms ... so every >> you type gets run on every supported platform, reporting differences
Still curious though, pardon me:
>> 1-1-1 - 1
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 31-Dec-2000
 
>> 0001-1-1 - 1
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 31-Dec-0000
 
>> 0001-1-1 - 367
 
7:07 AM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-type-limit.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: date! overflow/underflow
** Where: -
** Near: - 367
 
>> 1 - 1-1-1 - 1
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== -730861
 
:)
 
red> 1 - 1-1-1 - 1
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
*** Syntax error: invalid value at 1-Jan-2001 - 1

*** Where: do
*** Stack: do-console all not unset? set do first head reduce do* _execute if all not unset? set do first head reduce do* ctx55~transcode unless cause-error do
 
7:08 AM
Windoze prints out -730853 -- surprisingly close!
 
>> -730853 - -730861
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 8
 
... oh no, just as the prophecy ordained!
 
Enough fun with dates, it's shooting fish in a barrel, like finding bugs with decimal pairs, another "new" feature.
>> 1.1x1
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 1.100000023841858x1
 
7:12 AM
Let me count the ways that is f***ed up. One, two, three, O, M, G.
But I said enough of that, sorry.
 
No need to apologize to me for being concerned about such things.
 
On a good note, it's actually quite interesting how Rebol manages to carve up the 32 non-letter non-digit ASCII printables into categories that sum up to 40 characters. To me this is what drew me from day 1, the "relativity of expression".
In some ways, my mental model has been tarnished by seeing under the hood, but in others, I'm still, well, astonished.
There are even characters still available to be added to each category, so, room for expansion. It's quite an achievement.
All done with one or, at most, two syntax prefix characters per subtoken.
 
I still think some of the most basic tricks in the toolset are part of bothering to get some bits right.
And it's funny how wrong some of the right bits get, even :-)
I'd say for instance the script header is an example.
 
@HostileFork You noticed it fails to back-scan past comments also?
 
7:29 AM
>> $-.5 ; okay there's one with three
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== -$0.5
 
@iArnold I noticed that your friends at Haiku, not doing so well on funding, and no longer getting support from Google Summer of Code as a mentoring organization... have reached out to a version of GSoC for the underdogs which has no financial incentive. Wonder if that interests anyone? haiku-os.org/news/2015-03-15_haiku_vals_second_semester_code
 
Yes I noticed that. Well they have no new releases and they still have their lead developers. Seems some key people are trying hard to stall things, guess that is the true reason they sent Koki away, he was pushing too hard.
 
@iArnold Is anyone you know running anything besides Linux/Win/OSX/Android/iOS these days for actual work? Is Kaj even still using Syllable for instance? Have all non-corporate AltOSes died?
When I say "actual work" I can even mean "run your terminal emulator in it"
It just seems that all the HaikuOS and KolibriOS or AmigaOS/AROS stuff is for demoing and making YouTube videos now.
 
 
6 hours later…
1:39 PM
@HostileFork Linux is corporate? Or maybe it's just not an AltOS (whatever that is) you mean?
 
 
3 hours later…
5:02 PM
@MarkI Well, Ubuntu is anyway; heavily supported by industry. I think most distributions people use of Linux can be considered past indie status, but mostly just that there's nothing very "alternative" about how it's implementation works.
 
5:45 PM
Java unseats C at #1 according to Tiobe: tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
But at 16.869% vs. 16.847%, I think we can call that "statistically insignificant and within the margins of error of the study". If I were C, I'd be demanding a recount.
 
16%. Pfffft. I think that proves both of them are not really very good languages.
It is interesting though. I'd actually say my gripes about C's failings are different, but amount to about the same total, when compared to my gripes about Java's failings. So I would compare them as equal (equally bad, that is) too.
 
6:09 PM
@MarkI My impressions about Java were historically colored by working for Microsoft at the time it was announced... and having my first introductions to it being browser plug-ins that were remarkably bloated and uninteresting.
A little later someone brought an early Java "Word-clone-in-the-Browser" to a meeting that had a pretty decent surface functionality on a machine. Kind of looked and acted a bit like Google Docs does today. They said "this is a threat, Corel just bought this, Microsoft can't stand still on this..." and I thought "hm, looks to be shaping up a bit".
But the language itself didn't feel like that much of a jump. The idea that garbage collection somehow stopped bugs didn't make sense in a general-purpose programming language. There were already things like spreadsheets that kept users from worrying about malloc and free or new and delete. But spreadsheet authors have to worry about resources, lifetimes, performance. Not crashing can be worse than crashing and letting you know that the resource you are holding onto is actually gone.
Also, my early experiments were with the "Swing" UI toolkit, and I thought the whole thing was junk.
"It's junk, you will learn a parallel API... as bad or worse *and your applications will look terrible and be slow!"*
None of this has any bearing on how Java is being used today, though.
 
These guys claim garbage collection is solved...
Here is another index pypl.github.io/PYPL.html
Pretty much any index you look at Java is at the top somewhere
 
6:25 PM
@JacobGood1 If we keep mentioning J$va in here, then it's going to go higher on the RRSOC index too. (How often J$va is mentioned in the Rebol and Red StackOverflow Chat). So make sure to black it out when you type it.
 
lol
I would not mind playing around the the zing jvm... I asked them if I could and they said if I payed them 10k
I was wondering how clojure could perform with it
since clojure generates crap tons of garbage
 
@HostileFork My headphones are in my car, will listen later =)
I hate java as well but it has a really nice ecosystem that makes it bearable for me at least
intellij, jrebel, chronon(time traveling debugger), libs galore
 
@JacobGood1 JetBrains stuff seems good, but I still say it's a matter of succeeding "in spite of" vs. "because of"
 
@HostileFork I agree
those tools make that craptastic language a lot better though
 
6:31 PM
And that's true of... lots of things. Though I'd say architecturally, Qt has a fair bit going for it.
But I've used it enough to know the mistakes in that too.
 
@HostileFork btw, I know you are busy fixing rebol... are you still working on ren garden?
 
@JacobGood1 In a sense, yes... what good is Ren Garden if the language itself is not stable? But the first wave will be ripping junk out of Ren/C++ "RenCpp" and being able to use Ren/C to implement it.
 
oh and are you still at war or has the dust settled?
 
Well, when I say "war" I mean that I am not going to spend my time on "Red stuff". No bug reports, no writing their missing design formalisms. No updating their subtitles on my YouTube twice in a week.
 
@HostileFork gotcha
 
6:52 PM
I've been repeatedly trying to stress a rejection of the thesis that "the reason Rebol didn't succeed more broadly is because (1) it wasn't open source, (2) it was too slow, and (3) it wasn't bootstrapped."
 
@HostileFork as usual, agreed
user experience and first impression are important factors in language adoption
 
These days (1) is nearly a given on any programming tool. With DocKimbel doing source drops every few months on a ever-slipping schedule, on a codebase that mostly is only him and Qtxie, which others cannot understand or be brought into the fold contributing to... he might as well just be dropping binaries like Carl did. It's the 2015 equivalent.
On (2), I think most people couldn't get deep enough into Rebol to get to the point of caring whether it was fast or slow.
 
yep, see python
 
And on (3), I've been tempted to goad DocKimbel from fake Twitter accounts or comments saying "Awsum release! But how 2 take Red serious when it isn't written in Red yet? U still use Rebol, why do I need to install that to build Red? Rebol sux." Reverse psychology. :-P
Bootstrap is not a user-facing feature, and work on stabilizing open source Rebol and getting Red to accept the longer term of being built on it... doing everything prudently and properly... would have been the better course.
 
"would have been", is it too late, in your opinion?
 
7:02 PM
@HostileFork Kaj is using the Syllable server afaik. It works for him, he knows what it does, what it can't do and where the weak points are, does not need more fancy expansive hardware, so I see no reason that has changed last few years.
 
@JacobGood1 I still think a Red bootstrap step to a patched Rebol3 / RenC is a likely good idea, assuming I can deliver, which it looks like I will.
 
I think Axel Dorfler is using Haiku
 
Anyway, all is not lost. I think the opportunity to create some tools that shift the dialogue of development in an interesting way is still here. But it requires real soul-searching of "what's the angle". There are several, just buried.
I remember the days when I used DOS, and I was very determined to keep the directories in a readable organization and map. I resented it when install programs started showing up and putting things in places I didn't want. It was the beginning of a loss of control.
When long filenames came around, and started giving directories names like "Program Files" I resented it, and seeing PROGRA~1 as the name of the directory when I looked under the hood. What?
 
It might still be called PROGRA~1 and we don't know.
 
7:18 PM
@iArnold Between FAT16 and FAT32 I think it still was. Also in the "small mistakes in design can be big problems"... remember the SULFNBK.EXE "virus"?
 
I would click that one, looks more attractive and interesting than the others ;-)
 
That icon shipped in Windows. Random mistake, or intentional lesson from a developer who wanted to make a point...? :-)
@iArnold "Strangers have the best candy."
 
I tell my kids that candy is poisoned
They get enough here to not need/want candy from strangers :-)
 
@iArnold You might want to share your parenting views on parenting stackexchange. I'll see if Kaj has any popcorn leftover. :-P
 
They also never needed to try the chloride bottle cause we told them how to get the lemonade bottle.
@HostileFork :-D
 
7:49 PM
Hadn't done a release build in a while, and am surprised that the release build with all the crazy guards is only a bit more than 3x slower building hostilefork.com than the release on rebolsource.net. That's doing a malloc on every stack push...a free on every stack pop... and indexing into the stack by walking backwards on the linked list. Not to mention no memory pooling for series or anything, and tons of other costs to be more correct.
If that sounds bad, it isn't... that's actually quite promising.
3
 
8:29 PM
@HostileFork I would go further. It's mind-bogglingly fantastic, at least!
Is LFNBK supposed to be a bumper stumper of "laughing back", I wonder.
 
8:48 PM
@MarkI LFNWTH
 
9:03 PM
>> print [a: -0:1.0 b: -0:1.5 c: -0:0.5 a + b = c]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
-0:01 -0:00:01.5 -0:00:00.5 false
 
@MarkI Heh, 30% of the program is now spent in malloc. :-P
 
Would there be a hue and cry if that one got fixed? Not that I know it's even fixable, I found it while doing something else.
And sorry, the minus signs are irrelevant, I failed my due diligence again :)
>> :1.0 + :1.5 ; <-- this is a much better example
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 0:01:01.5
 
@MarkI No notations starting with colon should be legal literals besides get-word.
I assume URL schemes can't start with digits? :-/
 
9:09 PM
@HostileFork You assume correctly.
 
Can they have digits at all?
 
@HostileFork Not yet. IANA approves, and doesn't say why/why not.
@HostileFork Curse you, freedom!
 
Okay, so now it's time to do NewStack.
Funny, I think it was like... yesterday I told @iceflow19 it was too early to write it. :-)
And I was right, it was too early by like... a day. But looking at callgrind output, there's no point in trying to even read the output until I fix it
Interestingly, very few operations in the system accumulate stack. Most are function calls and args. The exceptions are reduce and compose.
In practice, it might be better to re-engineer the stack frames for functions to let you say what the address is of where to write the result...vs. providing that slot itself. So instead of the frame holding a REBVAL where to write it, hold a REBVAL*.
Then, Do_Next doesn't need to think in terms of "ending with the result written on top of stack". It ends with "result written where you wanted it"
A sort of "Do_Next_Into"
 
9:26 PM
@HostileFork From a design point of view that would be a good abstraction.
@HostileFork On the topic of headers, how does r3 handle them?
 
@iceflow19 In mezzanine code. Header processing, permissions checking, checksums... all of that is Rebol code, not C code
@iceflow19 If Do_Next were actually Do_Next_Into, and callers had to provide the storage space, then the "data stack" collapses to just being the "function call stack"
So easy step one is that the "chunks" are just big enough to hold a frame for a function call.
Then, fix reduce and compose, and I think it will work.
 
^^that is a good idea^^
 
What makes reduce and compose unhappy is that they don't know how big the result will be, but other parts of the system were happy enough to have a preallocated buffer to sit around for that purpose that expands on demand. It doesn't have to be where you put your function calls, and undermine pointer stability for the whole system.
So... there's my first pitch. Looking.
 
@HostileFork I was just wondering, because if the ecosystem were to expand I would think we should avoid the an explosion of "reserved header markers" REBOL Red Red/System etc... I'm almost half tempted to say that should be in the metadata block.
REN [
Red
Title: "Stuff"
...
]
 
@iceflow19 Did you read my CC ticket? Get what you pay for; don't make it ugly if there's no fight. If you're concerned, put a URI field.
Red [
   ;-- I don't care if something else claims to be Red and managed to
   ;-- get installed on your system.  Among friends and/or adversaries
   ;-- we agree what Red is and who can process it...
   Title: "Stuff"
   ...
]
 
9:37 PM
@HostileFork I would think we would want something more "robust"...
 
Red [
   ;-- Hostilefork is scary, and I think Ren/Forward or whatever might start
   ;-- a turf war
   Title: "Stuff"
   Identity: red-lang.org/we-are-real-red.certificate
   ...
]
@iceflow19 It just gets ugly fast.
com.hostilefork.languages/strand-3/red [
   Title: "Stuff"
   ...
]
Think of it like file extensions; except in-band
 
@HostileFork Im not proposing that.
All headers should be REN compliant.
 
Well, there's lots to compliance.
 
@HostileFork Im not done explaining... I type slow...
 
#! /bin/red
Red [
    Title: {Stuff}
    ...
]
There's an exception-of-the-day. Should it be allowed? How many other exceptions should be made?
 
9:48 PM
An interpreter should search forward for "REN" (or something similar). On encountering load the following block as a REN compliant structure. If the first value in said structure is of type word! treat it as an alias for the default evaluation function and then kick it off on the next value after the metadata structure. If REN* is encountered again in evaluation it would start the procedure all over again, but can only evaluate if the alias has been prior defined.
 
@iceflow19 Well the discussion is about DO, not about LOAD
I think most everyone agrees LOAD needs to be able to bring in just a structure out of a file with no header.
And be able to load the header as data that is in-band and you can process it.
 
In theory then I should have no problem writing:

REN [ REBOL ]
;Do something Reboly
REN [ RED ]
;Do something Redish
 
That runs counter to things I tend to think. I think the block should be "safe-loadable" as an object.
Were I to believe that Ren might allow dispatch of some kind, in its ecosystem, I'd say at minimum it would be Ren [Language: Rebol] for instance
I think that in fact, all header information in Ren is essentially commentary to whoever will pay attention to it
 
@HostileFork Im not talking about load. If you want to do something with the metadata then do it as part of the native or mezzanine evaluator that you dispatch to.
What isn't safe loadable about it?
 
@iceflow19 Well, it isn't key/value structure. I feel the header needs to be key/value and stray data rejected.
In any case, I think it's all territory that should be mapped and lots of different proposals looked at. For the moment I should probably be getting Do_Next_Into working and see if I can hack that. :-)
 
9:57 PM
@HostileFork Point taken, I just thought a long word like language was not aesthetic.
 
@iceflow19 Sometimes a long word is effectively a metasyntactic variable by its obvious unfitness. That's explicitly why I chose Indivisibles. :-)
// Note: Since series act as values themselves, series/value aren't antonyms.
// This file could be called "atomics" but that is confusing with std::atomic.
// It's called the deliberately strange "indivis[i]bles" so that the first person
// who notices it (and hates it enough to want to change it) can do the
// legwork of giving it a better name.
 
Where things would get interesting is if you had this:

REN [Language: REBOL]
my-dialect: ... ;evaluator for a dialect

Do %someFileInDialect.{whatever ext}

============================

REN [Language: my-dialect]
;DO something in the dialect
Im already thinking the direction of .lest files...
 
@iceflow19 I think it's prettier to have my-dialect be what starts the file. You are right to notice that there is a tradeoff in the certainty of a structure (e.g. a "boilerplate") vs the slipperiness that results when you start stripping boilerplate. But the project is specifically an analysis of how to manage freedom of choice when all unnecessary boilerplate is removed.
If rigor is the name of the game, use semantic databases. Don't give variables names, give them UUIDs. Structure everything. Push the whole thing to functional programming.
A little bit of the language dies when you can't say Lest [a: b c: d] x y z...
People do trip up on the workings of IF vs. WHILE w.r.t. the reaction to blocks. Should it be changed so if [...condition...] [...body...] matches while [...condition...] [...body...]?
 
10:12 PM
But logically speaking how a script is evaluated is metadata.
How do we take care of terminating evaluation at the end of a script proceeding another header for a different language in the family that just-so-happens to be valid Rebol syntax?
Do we use halt?
 
@iceflow19 What would that look like? You mean more than one "header" per file? I think the understanding is one header per file. (?)
 
Quoting from BrianH:

You also need to consider multi-scripts, which can be all in one language or in multiple languages. As long as all the dialects use length-embedding and comparable header block syntax, there should be no categorical reason why we can't have SCRIPT? just skip past non-Rebol scripts. For fully syntax-compatible dialects, even script-in-a-block embedding should work.

Heterogeneous multi-scripts are one way to be able to make compiled extensions that both Rebol and Red can use. Even homogeneous multi-scripts are useful for extensions.
 
@iceflow19 Well, glad someone is thinking about it. :-) It's out of scope for me today, but I do think DO shouldn't just DO any old block without being sure it's "for you". You should have to load it yourself if you want that.
That should be a rule, today's Rebol doesn't honor it.
We can quibble about how to tell if "it's for you", but the rule needs to be established.
 
While I may not agree with "For fully syntax-compatible dialects, even script-in-a-block embedding should work." *, multiscripts are an interesting idea. The above stuff is just my proposal to handling it.

*By that I mean it shouldn't be our only option
@HostileFork That's kind of where I was going with my line of thought. How do we establish whose is whose in a consistent manner across all now and future platforms. Anyways I might write up a formal proposal and add it to the CC ticket. Enough of this little aside.
 
10:39 PM
@HostileFork Anyways, I'm glad everything is going well on you end with Ren/C. Anything going on with any of your other projects currently?
 
@iceflow19 Currently the null character marks the end of a script, another dialect might skip the null character as part of a custom SCRIPT?. Perhaps SCRIPT? itself should have a /LANGUAGE refinement that starts when it finds the header for the given language...
 
@iceflow19 My blog has some new entries about findings during this process to be posted, to the extent my blog is a project. I have lots to say about valgrind, address sanitizer, clang and gcc differences... things I've learned and general updates to my preconceptions... whether things I believed turned out to be true or false.
 
Although I know @HostileFork was keen at one point (iirc) that SCRIPT? should only pass #! and empty lines then bomb if the first non-empty line wasn't a header.
>> script? "junk^/more junk^/Rebol ["
 
10:55 PM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== #{5265626F6C205B}
 
rebol2> script? "junk^/more junk^/Rebol ["
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== "Rebol ["
 
11:23 PM
Hum. So one problem with Do_Next_Into is that you can't have a REBVAL on the C stack keep-alive a value from GC...
Compose and Reduce can get away with it by Do_Next_Into a series that is protected from GC.
 
11:36 PM
Wouldn't be a problem except at present there are some natives that believe a way to protect things from GC is to write them into the return value slot on the stack. So they'll stow away a local temporarily into the return slot... call Do_Next (which may trigger GC)... and expect the value to survive. Basically those would all have to be changed, to overwrite an argument or refinement. I don't think there are too many.
 

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