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1:37 AM
There's something that's always bothered me about the semantics of the break and return "function"s.
Or rather, there's a nothing that's always bothered me about them :)
>> seven: func[][return 7 ha ha ha] print [seven] source seven
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
7
seven: make function! [[][return 7 ha ha ha]]
 
Notice my evil laughter in the above.
If there's a semantic requirement that break and return end the block, shouldn't there be a corresponding syntactic one?
We could even consider them value-holding modifiers of the closing ], but now I'm frightening myself.
PS Thanks for resurrecting RebolBot, to whomever was involved!
 
 
1 hour later…
2:53 AM
@MarkI Technically enforceable but could make composed code scenarios harder. I can't offhand think of whether that's harder-good or harder-bad
 
3:10 AM
I guess the stack moving bugs being bitten could be caught in debug builds by some kind of FOO(REBVAL) var_name; that turns into a templated class under C++ which caches a global sequence number. Bump the sequence number every time something that might expand the stack runs, and throw an error if a cached value is attempted to be used when its sequence number doesn't match.
Then turn FOO(REBVAL) simply into REBVAL* for the C build.
 
 
2 hours later…
5:40 AM
Taking my anti-stack-volatility movement to an "extreme" (or what software engineers would just call "correct" or "verifiable") level now. Dropping or popping the stack trashes the data cells above the new top-of-stack in the debug build. Hilarity ensues.
 
6:01 AM
@RebolBot
stuff: [print "Hello"]
case [true stuff]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
Hello
== true
 
@rebolek @johnk Do you like that behavior? --^ Should there be a CASE/ONLY that parallels IF/ONLY and can return blocks? Also: if it runs the code, shouldn't it return what the execution returned... not "true"?
It seems to me that CASE parallels IF and EITHER and UNLESS. It already had the "values by default and execute block" behavior that they originally lacked.
@redbot
stuff: [print "Hello"]
case [true stuff]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [print "Hello"]
 
CASE/ONLY makes sense. I am all up for increasing consistency and reducing edge cases, but I need to go back and play with CASE again ...
@MarkI they came back to life all by themselves. Magical creatures that they are
 
@johnk My general observation--and it seems others agree (with DocKimbel not reporting having been convinced, although even Carl was)--that IF/UNLESS/EITHER (a) accepting raw values for the condition and not needing brackets is good, and (b) having an /ONLY variant to prevent block evaluation is also good.
@redbot
case [1 < 2 "Hello"]
 
6:13 AM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== "Hello"
 
If people want to chime in and try to convince DocKimbel, I opened an issue
Speaking of which, hm. Has the word case sensitivity voting frenzy died off?
>> case [true 10 + 20]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 30
 
@RebolBot
x: none
case [false x: "hmmm"]
probe x
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
none
== none
 
@RebolBot
x: none
if false x: "hmmm"
probe x
 
6:28 AM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
"hmmm"
== "hmmm"
 
Beyond consistency with IF, there is a technical problem if a case statement doesn't Do_Next on all of its false arguments and toss them.
The boundaries or "shape" of the case will be seen differently if the conditions are true vs. false.
 
@HostileFork I agree that CASE always felt bit inconsistent compared to IF/EITHER/SWITCH.
 
@rebolek Check this out...
@RebolBot
x: none
probe case [true x: "Hello" 1]
probe x
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
"Hello"
"Hello"
== "Hello"
 
@RebolBot
x: none
probe case [false x: "Hello" 1]
probe x
 
6:35 AM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
1
none
== none
 
What's wrong with this picture?
@WiseGenius --^
If the next thing it sees is not a block in a case, it needs to run the Do_Next whether the condition was true or not
Although that depends too. What if infix operators take blocks? You can't sniff [false [stuff]... and skip it, because [false [stuff] + [stuff2]] might happen. It has to be agnostic and run the Do_Next regardless.
Another issue filed for Red: github.com/red/red/issues/1181
Also, what should case [true] return? Is it clever to come back from that with UNSET! or is it better to have an error? That looks like a good time for an error to me.
red> case [true]
 
6:52 AM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl

*** Runtime Error 1: access violation
*** at: 08065790h
 
>> case [true]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== true
 
Both of those seem like "not good answers"
For the moment: RE_PAST_END, // 328 "out of range or past end" will do.
 
7:24 AM
Hmm. I was thinking DO/NEXT should return a block whose first item is the result, and second item is the remainder to process. It's one of those cases where things start getting "heavier" though...that allocates a whole series.
It makes me wonder if PAIR! is worth optimizing? A PAIR! could really hold any two REBVALs, and protect them from GC without needing a series allocation. That would also be much more useful.
Perhaps notationally in Plan -4 you could write [a b c]x[d e f] and get a PAIR! of BLOCK! ? :-/
Anyway, useful for TRANSCODE and would help speed it up
 
 
1 hour later…
8:29 AM
Hi, I thought I would come to say hello today.
 
8:44 AM
@Morwenn Hey there... how goes? Contract still on?
I've been going over Rebol sources and tightening everything and making it a better and more robust C layer (that builds under C++ also, with some C++-specific type checking). My goal is shortly here to link RenCpp to that, which I am calling "RenC"
Many, many, many bugs fixed.
New capabilities also
 
 
1 hour later…
10:02 AM
@HostileFork I'm fine. Yes, the contract is still on and probably for quite a long time :)
Hey, good luck then to provide a C interface. It will probably not be a piece of cake either.
 
10:19 AM
@Morwenn No... and actually one of the hardest bits is that Rebol in trying to be C has used macros so heavily that it's something that can't be namespaced. So what I hope to do is make the generative programming bits conditional... if built as C++ it will make inline functions.
So is the job fun? Still Python/Qt?
If you missed the general kickoff of the first tier of complaints I had, it was that I realized why valgrind wasn't catching a lot of nasty Rebol bugs. It was using memory pooling and just allocating big blocks of memory and filling it with zeros, then suballocating out of that.
The zero fill meant you had no hope on catching uninitialized reads, and there wasn't any real bounds checking or real detection of when you were messing with freed memory. Can 'o worms. Anyway...informed by what RenCpp needs...I tackled a cleanup. It has been kind of "epic".
Often, I think it shows the very kinds of naiveté in C implementation practices that motivated the design of better ways. That said, there's still a thing or two to pick out of the methods; and I've not found it as easy to get the same performance out of "doing it right" as I would have thought.
 
11:18 AM
@HostileFork I am doing some Java with Ant stuff. I prefered Python but it might get better.
@HostileFork Sounds like a tricky thing to find, indeed. And yeah, doing things right and getting the desired performance is kind of hard. Languages strive to achieve that but none totally succeeds :)
So, what are the new capabilities announced?
 
@Morwenn In diagnosing performance I'm using callgrind, and it's running on a VM and just a model... but seems to be close enough to point out details. At the end of the day, what you've got is your assembly and some guesses. Trying to guesstimate through even small things like branch prediction (ostensibly you put your common case in the true branch)... but it feels like maddening micro-optimization to me.
 
Yeah, at least as you describe it, it sounds like micro-optimizations.
 
@Morwenn One big thing that needed doing was definitional return. Basically if you say foo: func [code [block!]] [do code] and then bar: func [] [stuff: [return 10] foo stuff] then what gets returned from? does the foo that is doing the code get a return value of 10, or are you returning 10 from bar?
Essentially: when code blocks can be passed as parameters around and about, and they have a return in them, to which function are they bound...and how?
 
Er, good question.
 
The answer is basically to use the same method that everything else does; definitional binding. But there's no "return:" declared anywhere to bind to.
 
11:26 AM
I guess that I would have expected bar: func [] [stuff: [return 10] return foo stuff] to work.
 
Yes, that would have worked before...but now it will work even without the second return. The return defined in bar's func is bound to that function.
 
Hum, ok. That's a tricky case.
 
https://github.com/red/red/pull/1182
GitHub
Red Pull Req—Corrects description of the word "while" that can be confused with "until" word.
lkppo
1431926578
 
In other words: all functions have an implicit return word defined, even if you don't mention it. (If you do mention it, you can constrain return types, like baz: func [x y z return: [integer!]] [...])
If you don't mention it, it is still there... and assumed to tolerate any type
 
Ok.
 
11:29 AM
What it is bound to is a function specific to that function that does the returning
Anyway, this is essential. Without it, a lot of the "you can write your own language constructs" was falling apart.
 
By the way, what happened to the make function! [] idea that you were evoking last time I was around?
 
make function! works today. It's the foundation upon which all function builders are based.
(It's a bit unfortunate that the noun "function" is being taken for what is actually more verbish... make-function)
 
Well, legacy and stuff...
 
But make function! is awkward. It's an arity 2 generalized constructor
The second parameter is in the "make dialect"
@RebolBot
foo: make function! [[x [integer!]] [print x]]
foo 1020
 
@HostileFork What do you mean?
 
11:32 AM
I really have to try to make things with Rebol to exactly get how things work .____.
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
1020
 
@Morwenn It's really fascinating, and different, and oft-frustrating.
I wish that some of the "convenience" and "artistic" sensibilities had been tempered much earlier in the process with formalism.
 
I know what you mean ^^
 
There are lots of little details. If you look at what I was talking about earlier, consider case...
CASE is great.
@RebolBot
x: "Hello"
case/all [
    string? x [print "x is a string!"]
    integer? x [print "x is an integer!"]
    5 = length? x [print "x is length 5"]
    false [print "This never happens"]
]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
x is a string!
x is length 5
== none
 
11:36 AM
And as usual, you can keep teasing out the bricks...
 
case/all is a case which executes for every valid predicate?
 
@RebolBot
x: "Hello"
msg: [print "x is a string!"]
case/all [
    string? x msg
    integer? x [print "x is an integer!"]
    5 = length? x [print "x is length 5"]
    false [print "This never happens"]
]
 
@HostileFork What do you mean?
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
x is a string!
x is length 5
== none
 
@Morwenn Yup, and regular case just returns the first one
And it's great. There's all kinds of flexibility across the board with this stuff.
 
Ok. Nice to see that it is what I expected from the name and the example :p
 
11:39 AM
But when I gripe about "not thinking things through"...
@RebolBot
case [
    1 2 + 3
]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 5
 
We see that in the structure, you don't need to use a block. That's good and interesting-ish. 1 is "truthy" in Rebol, so 2 + 3 can be evaluated.
 
Ok.
 
@RebolBot
x: none
probe case [
    true x: "Hello" 10
]
probe x
@RebolBot delete
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
"Hello"
"Hello"
== "Hello"
 
11:42 AM
That makes sense. The case true was hit, and x: "Hello" was evaluated and that was the end of a complete expression. x became "Hello". The 10 is extraneous here.
@RebolBot
x: none
probe case [
    false x: "Hello" 10
]
probe x
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
10
none
== none
 
Er, WAT? So false led the "shape" of the case to change. It didn't skip the next complete expression by evaluating it and discarding the result... it just bumped an index to pass the x:
 
Extraneous but unfortunately observable and taken into consideration.
 
Leaving it with a "truthy" hello, that was a true case leading to a 10 evaluation.
 
Well, that's indeed counter-intuitive.
 
11:44 AM
These things aren't unsolvable, but there was just from the beginning a blatant lack of study of edge cases, and Red is continuing that pattern.
red> case [true]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl

*** Runtime Error 1: access violation
*** at: 08065790h
 
Which is sad because when done right, this stuff is really, really nifty.
 
That's the problem. You design things for the more general case and you don't always notice the edge cases.
 
I always try the edge cases first :-)
 
Of course you do :p
But people tend to get things to work first, make them usable, then ask users to fill tickets if something goes wrong ^^
 
11:47 AM
I've tried to have the attitude that it takes all kinds
 
By the way, is there any documentation software for Rebol?
 
Well, it has its reflective help
 
Ok, just like Python's help then, docstrings analysis.
 
There was a web generation thing: help.rebol.info/append
In Rebol, the documentation is in-band in the dialect...
 
It could be an interesting project to add a Rebol parser for Sphinx to generate cheesy documentation :p
 
11:50 AM
@RebolBot
foo: function [
    {This is the foo function.  It does stuff.}
    param [integer! string!] {This is a parameter it does something}
    extra {This is some other parameter}
][
    print [param extra]
]

help foo
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
USAGE:
    FOO param extra

DESCRIPTION:
    This is the foo function.  It does stuff.
    FOO is a function value.

ARGUMENTS:
    param -- This is a parameter it does something (integer! string!)
    extra -- This is some other parameter
 
As good as you can get for an ASCII help :)
 
Well, it can be better. :-) I'm documenting returns and adding capabilities for return type checking now.
 
@Morwenn Nice, what's that markup style (from view source)
 
11:52 AM
RST
ReStructured Text
With some Sphinx extensions for MathJax and some other goodies.
 
@rebolek --^
 
With some work, it should be possible to write a Rebol parser for Sphinx and get all the other stuff for free.
It wouldn't generate documentation from code of course, but that's as good as you can get for a quick hand-rolled documentation :)
 
If there's one thing Rebol gets right, generally, it's parsing
I do think that if you picked it up you'd probably have a hard time putting it down :-)
And then going "but wait, if only this got fixed..."
 
^^
 
Run! Run away! Don't <aslhfa048 as jfsaajs a ;sj 04808ansf
^-- Cat seems to have briefly taken over the keyboard. Typing nonsense, as usual!
 
11:56 AM
xD
Well, unfortunately, I already have to go.
It was nice talking again, even if shortly. See you around :)
 
Well thanks for checking in, hopefully I'll have some interesting RenCpp stuff to share in a bit
A large cleanup of all the nasty casty code
(Adapting Rebol to RenCpp needs...)
 
Sounds like fun (and not fun as well). If you need help again, don't hesitate.
 
@Morwenn I'll ping you when something of substance occurs :-)
 
Ok, see you later then. Bye ^^
 
user image
2
made me smile
 
12:13 PM
 
12:23 PM
You don't need parens for a light sabre
>> [||||][==============]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [==============]
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [==============]
 
@johnk In the list of one-line justifications for why languages existed vs another, Graham suggested Rebol's was "Lisp has too many parentheses."
I still hold hopes for the nextgen Rebmu. This wave of fixes is helping a lot.
A new frontier in the art of the nanovirus.
 
That's the spirit. Rebuild Rebol from the ground up and we can rule code golf forever.
 
@johnk It would be hard to find someone working harder on "the problem". The Golfscript inventor mentioned Rebmu: golfscript.com/golfscript
Been chipping away at the hacks as things fold into their proper function.
 
The analysis of all of these edge cases is teaching me more about the language which is a good thing. It is an odd beast yet strangely compelling.
 
12:40 PM
With tightened control over the codebase and "mutability with confidence", one can be less timid about changes. And then the focus falls upon the questions belabored over... what SHOULD it do?
I feel that CASE has a way forward here. I know there's going to be a groan from DocKimbel who doesn't want to pay for an evaluation on false cases when you know you're going to throw the result away... but that keeps the true and false branches at the same "shape" and also means you can have side-effects.
The likes of x: none followed by if false x: "This gets assigned even though false" might trouble some people.
But it doesn't trouble me, because that's how everything else works in DO.
Don't want that? Don't write it. The alternative is a world constricted by boilerplate that is not necessitated by the evaluator itself (contrast with why the condition of WHILE must be in a block, or be a function value of some kind)
One of my favorite examples to cite was "why do they make airplanes out of aluminum? aluminium is terrible in case of collision, the plane will get torn apart..."
All things being considered, when you're up in the air flying hundreds of miles per hour, and you hit another plane... being made out of iron doesn't increase your odds all that noticeably...and the weight costs fuel. So you invest in the right places. Better air traffic control. Make collisions not happen.
 
12:56 PM
@HostileFork I can live with oddities if there is a clear and simple reason for them
 
1:07 PM
@johnk Is it truly an oddity if there is a clear and simple reason? People do puzzle over the fact that IF with a block condition doesn't work like WHILE of a block condition. And I don't have a problem with that because you can explain it... while requires the block because if the caller evaluated and passed the result that doesn't work.
So I do hope Red comes over to the side of not requiring the clauses on IF/EITHER/UNLESS to be blocks, because that is pushing "boilerplate" into a freeform language.
Argh. Burned my finger on a frying pan and now typing hurts. (Right on the "pad" of the pinky, whatever you call that.)
 
Too many nerve endings there. Ouch
 
"distal phalanx", but I can't tell if that's just the whole part or if there's a name for the surface
 
Aren't you glad you didn't get an iphone with a fingerprint unlock mechanism? "Hello, is that Apple care? How do I register a new fingerprint as I seem to have lost my old one?"
Late here now. Be back again soon. Enjoy your Rebol hacking.
 
1:22 PM
@johnk I'll try...
 
@HostileFork - will your new codebase/distro include -4 REP?
 
@pekr I'm trying to change as little as possible functionally, bugs aside. -4 and NewPath will not be in the initial release.
Just a few hours ago I added CASE/ONLY for instance, which is non-breaking...and I cleaned up CASE in what I consider to be a bugfix.
@pekr That said, it does have ramifications. For example, look here: github.com/rebol/rebol/blob/…
I'm busy trying to dot the i's and cross the t's, so when something like this gets in my way I say "if you do this, you have to change it". It's a tradeoff, but I don't feel like corrupting the algorithm or stack mechanics just for the sake of something that people shouldn't have done in the first place.
AND I don't think many people were doing that on purpose (probably a bug more often than not)... AND I can fix the mezzanine instance.
But -4 and NewPath and REFINED! and all that is a different set of concerns.
 
1:39 PM
OK, understand ...
 
Still, it will be an epic integration effort to try and patch these onto the rebol sources as they exist today.
 
Is there a chance, that Rebolsource will accept those changes? Or can it be seen as more radical (eg. making it more C++ friendly), and will exist in a separate repository?
 
There is a manpower issue on it; I don't know if it has so much to do with whether the changes are good or bad, vs. that Andreas just isn't at a level of availability to go over them all.
(They are good; the C++ changes are minimal and also can be isolated even moreso than I have. And you only get the C++ checking if built as C++. Still builds as C.)
 
Mozilla's Rust just got to 1.0. OSNews opened a discussion and someone linked to the criticizing blog from C++ followers. Flamefest as usual :-) Here's the article - viva64.com/en/b/0324
 
"To put it brief and clear, the issue with C++ is that it is very fast (and also demanding little memory, battery charge, etc.) but not safe in the sense that it allows array overruns, addressing freed memory, and so on."
Sigh.
Seems some people need to get up to date.
That's just the C-compatible side of C++. If you program in modern C++ proper, you don't worry about that 99% of the time.
The reason people are having a hard time killing C++ is because it's actually very well thought out.
(Though no one programs in C++ because the syntax is "pretty"... you just live with it because it inherited C and painted itself further into a corner.)
D tried to fix that, and simply didn't bring enough value to the table for the incompatibility. Basically, D is for "Dead".
Some D ideas have made it back into the C++ world, though.
 
2:07 PM
@Morwenn Where did your name POLDER come from Morwenn?
 
@iArnold Two different plays on words.
The first is that I couldn't find a decent name, so I used "placeholder". If you remove some letters, you get "polder".
Also, it was a C library at first. So it was a polder since it was "built on the C", a bad play on words with "sea" with somehow bad English built into it.
 
posted on May 18, 2015 by Stéphane Aulery

Hello the list, I read the book about Rebol which you advised me and I see the words While / Until, work the same way in Red. I find it odd that the syntax of Until is not of the form: until [body-block] [cond-block] or until [cond-block] [body-block] with [cond-body] optional

 
@Morwenn I used to drive thru the Flevopolder regularly. Always irritated me they took away the water, but forgot the waves.
 
What do you mean they forgot the waves?
 
2:26 PM
Some parts of the road are not as flat as I like them to be, driving those always feels like riding the waves in a boat at C.
 
2:37 PM
Eh, I know that feel :)
 
 
2 hours later…
4:15 PM
posted on May 18, 2015 by draegtun

[Reddit] The RebCode Virtual Machine (Rebol 2)

 
 
2 hours later…
6:00 PM
@HostileFork you have a broken link on your Rebmu page to a deleted question.
 
@rgchris Bah. Well I got most of the old golfs resurrected to archive status, but that one didn't make the cut. Thanks.
 
6:34 PM
>> ? foo:bar
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
foo:bar is an url
 
Tsk, 'an url' indeed...
 
Pronounce it "earl" and that works...
 
7:34 PM
Survey: How many elements should a block need to contain before a reduce of that block corrupts memory?
(^-- Beware... trick question!)
I'll save us all some time and say "no length of block being reduced should silently corrupt memory."
So now the real question: How many elements does a block need to contain before a reduce of that block corrupts memory? Closest guess wins a prize.
 
@HostileFork if you're still talking about stack expansion, you might be interested in github.com/zsx/r3/commits/stack_expansion
 
@ShixinZeng build instructions on Atronix should just be (after compiling FFI)
make -f makefile-osxi r3-view
?
on OSX
 
Hmmm, OS X, there is no atronix make file for osx
 
@ShixinZeng Seems you are looking at some of the same stuff. We are going to have to sit down and compare notes on all this
 
@ShixinZeng Are you sure?
 
7:43 PM
@ShixinZeng how much of this are you finding with memory tools?
 
@kealist that one is from Saphirioin
@HostileFork Sorry that I don't understand your question
 
@ShixinZeng Gotcha, out of date
 
@ShixinZeng I mean, when you are going in and patching things in places like Do_Next, are you motivated just by something crashing or is it pre-emptive by running under something valgrind-like
 
@kealist you might want to take a look at make/scripts/build.sh
 
@ShixinZeng is the Saphirion/Atronix collaboration still going on or have you taken over the GUI work?
 
7:46 PM
@HostileFork it's been a while, but I think I initially was trying to fix a crash, and then I fixed some of them by just reading the source
I don't remember I used valgrind for this purpose
 
posted on May 18, 2015 by Steven White

I am in need of a simple program to create 'readme' files in folders, with some REBOL-readable data in those files that can be used to identify and search for those folders.  I am thinking of something like: DESCRIPTION: ' <short text description> ' CREATED-BY: ' <maybe my own name> ' SEARCH-WORDS: [   ???   ] That SEARCH-WORDS concept is troubling me

 
@ShixinZeng Thanks, don't have a mac myself, so I may be stuck on that
 
@HostileFork Last time that I merged code from Saphirion was more than a year ago
 
@ShixinZeng I have seen Robert pop up on the web-public AltME so they are presumably still around, but haven't heard much from them (well, haven't heard anything at all really) in terms of what they're working on.
 
@HostileFork I think they are busying working on projects based on R3, instead of R3 itself
probably @earl has a better answer
 
7:54 PM
He is apparently rather loosely affiliated (despite being credited on their website).
 
So the release of what I'm doing is certainly going to create the kind of thing I was explicitly seeking to avoid: namely another point of fragmentation. I'm hoping that between you @ShixinZeng with @earl, and hopefully getting some others involved we can keep it from being the disaster that it could be.
 
@HostileFork so you're saying you're gonna do some releases off rebol/rebol, or off your own source?
 
@ShixinZeng What I will do as a first cut is to make a sprawling non-master branch onto ren-c, which is currently a raw fork of rebolsource. I'm going to try and chop the commits into functional areas, without expecting the individual commits states to compile...but just to rough in what the categories of changes are.
Then, I will target ren-cpp against this experimental branch of that repository. ren-cpp will after that point not build against any other rebol distribution... not rebolsource, not rebol/rebol
That will kick off a process where we hopefully can review the "strands" of changes, and take them back systematically with peer review.
The end result I would hope for is convergence... that ren-cpp would ultimately be able to link up against rebolsource
This obviously depends on time and manpower to review and think over patch sets. In isolation, I cannot do that. I can only work in an environment where code is correct. The idea of "well, how broken do you want it to be?" just doesn't sit well with me.
 
"without expecting the individual commits states to compile"? That would make review and testing more difficult, I would say.
and it will make "git bisect" useless
 
8:06 PM
Yes, but one has to weigh the propositions and alternatives.
Carl kind of dropped a codebase onto the public which lacked a built-in test suite, which was very hard to modify without error, that had endemic and systemic design flaws and used almost none of the practices for writing reliable C code that you could pick up quickly from reading a copy of Writing Solid Code... 20 years ago.
 
Can't you keep them into different functional areas and compilable?
 
Possibly, but bear in mind all such things have cost.
I'd rather we take "Can't you..." and instead let the research and development that I have done that is smashing bugs left and right--and instead of making me solely pay the cost for the failures of the code not being self-documenting and self-debugging in the first place--that the burden be borne by more of us looking at each problem.
If the original code had been conceived in a hygienic fashion; with built in tests, with self-confirming design, I wouldn't have had to do what I've done.
And if pull requests for basics had been honored or discussed, who knows where we'd be today.
 
@HostileFork that "can't you" is more of a question actually, so don't take it as I am commanding you to do something in my way
 
@ShixinZeng No worries, I didn't take it that way. I was just saying that yes, it is possible to consider the existing codebase to be a fixpoint of stability from which you take great care before modifying... and each patch is in isolation against that fixpoint.
I simply do not think the codebase as published was a deserving fixpoint. It's a known fixpoint, but the practices by which it was developed produced something where each modification leads to another question that motivates another assertion, and that assertion motivates a redesign.
The utter absence of a debug build or assert() speaks volumes (as does the lack of the built in test suite)
 
OK, I think I am starting to see what you're proposing
 
8:14 PM
I'm trying to quantum leap things.
That has an unfortunate amount of contention against the needs of Atronix and rebolsource -- who I am the most interested in collaborating with and getting on common ground.
Saphirion I kind of... don't care.
 
I think we are happy to take part in this kind of collaboration, and I can devote some time to it if we can get enough people involved
 
@ShixinZeng I wanted to wait to write David until I had something really concrete ready, but my hope was that he would want us to get in there and stabilize things and (perhaps) speed them up in the process. The most depressing thing to me is that there is a lot of missing correctness, and adding in correctness costs. Just as a random "example from a few hours ago", consider: github.com/red/red/issues/1181
I found that while doing stack balancing in CASE. (I'm making it so that all natives that don't trap must balance the stack, unless they return R_TOS in which case they will do one pop.)
The old code didn't care how skewed the stack was, it would just reset it after you ran.
So it's just a fractal of edge cases, as I lock things up... and I wish I had a better performance story to tell, but the truth is... correctness can cost (in interpreted systems)
That's just one little teeny thing that means you have to Do_Next every body in a case, even if the condition is false. Small in itself, sure. But keep adding up all the correctness and it's getting slower. So I'll have to do a pass over and look for a finesse somewhere.
I'm pretty good at that, but unfortunately, it seems I'm up against heavily optimized incorrect code.
Though since I've been ripping on the Rebol source a bit, I will say there are some optimization tricks I thought were ridiculous at first that I now think "okay, hm, that's actually pretty interesting".
 
Balanced stack is also something I would like rebol to have
 
@ShixinZeng Now it does :-)
Also... every DS_DROP or DS_POP trashes the stack above it... and all stack resets that drop to a lower position trashes the stack above it with corrupt data...
So no more "DANGER! VOLATILE!"
 
Cool
 
8:28 PM
Either the contract is that the routine returns top of stack, or it writes into a provided location. Anything above DS_TOP is error territory
As you can imagine, "non-trivial"
 
Are these changes in your local source, or you have published them somewhere? I would like to see
 
So if these kinds of changes are sounding good to you, that's a good sign
 
Yes, personally, I weigh correctness more than performance
3
 
@ShixinZeng Good thinking. :-) I'll publish... soon. I took a first step by setting up a non-hostilefork "organizational" account, to indicate my idea that we'll be partners in going forward with equal control. Since we've had this talk, I'll pre-emptively add you to owners... nothing to see just yet in ren-c, but I moved ren-cpp there.
I think I already mentioned that my idea in calling it ren-c is that it will package Rebol as a library, but in the more open source sense... e.g. a library that has access to all the guts of Rebol the way Rebol code itself does.
So it won't be proxying REBVAL into REBRXIs or whatever. "Clients" of ren-c will be doing Append_Value and using REBVAL and such, with all the guts exposed.
And a basic test program, as with ren-cpp having ren garden as a GUI console... will be ren-c having a text console.
Make sense?
Then ren-cpp will build against ren-c but bind it to C++
 
Yes, I hated the fact that hostkit has different definitions of some basic data structures than the core
 
8:34 PM
I plan on killing a-lib and hostkit
@ShixinZeng Seriously???
And people wonder why Rebol-based clients aren't any good. :-) You did watch the Ren Garden video, didn't you?
 
I think I started watching it, but I didn't finish it, and I forgot about it. :(
 
^-- linked, it's good! Watch!
I skipped up to the fun part
 
But I did compile your Ren Garden, tried it out
 
Anyway, I had to cheat and fake "RenC" to do that. So the way forward I decided was to build on that work and make the real RenC.
@ShixinZeng Shells, watches, dialect modes, edit buffer dialect, more...
 
@HostileFork watch is a pretty good feature
 
8:43 PM
@ShixinZeng Using ordinary watches now, I miss the freeze/copy/label features. It seems like I spend too much time awkwardly copying pointer values and things to the clipboard to manually compare. :-/
Anyway, I want a full debugger... breakpoints
Hostkit was a dud because as you have observed (and I observed) that parallel type hierarchy is garbage
It was based on a pre-open-source Rebol idea
Which basically means every RL_* API is a dud.
RenCpp is much, much nicer.
And RenC isn't going to be as nice, because programming with it will be playing with fire like if you were extending the Rebol codebase itself. Most anything that's not a static function inside a compilation unit would be available to you.
 
@HostileFork "watch" actually gave me the exact aspiration: a full debugger
 
@ShixinZeng The hardest part is actually how far do you project a code view. Code can be self referential and the code structure itself recurse... so you have to notice that and do something about it in the view.
Other than that, it's quite doable.
@ShixinZeng I was trying to imagine things so that I could use it as my console/shell... and forget bash, which is a... work in progress. But notice the persistent shell process being talked to, it works like Expect in TCL (don't know if you're familiar)
I was using TCL expect 20 years ago :-)
 
I had not seen a computer yet 20 years ago ;)
 
9:01 PM
@ShixinZeng If you did not read this blog entry, some personal history humor :-)
 
@HostileFork Yes, I am reading, very interesting
 
@ShixinZeng That was before my actual early education... from a better book on a better computer. :-)
So there is a reason I'd like to see Rebol be able to dialect old assembly/machine languages.
 
Yep, that would be a lot of fun
 
@ShixinZeng I lost a lot of disks, I found this though: blog.hostilefork.com/inquiry-teenage-turbo-c-coding
I actually did try and dig up all the things necessary to build it, and didn't find everything
Published it on GitHub though
And in the "Internet never forgets" category, that's why I found my first open source contribution: blog.hostilefork.com/manykeys-my-open-source-roots
Anyway, somehow the winding path of things brought me here. I think Rebol does bring some old school know-how back to the picture, but it should be way more solid. Hence the work.
 
I am gonna save some of them for later reading, gotta go. I'll talk to you later
 
9:18 PM
@ShixinZeng cool, thanks for the talk...
 

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