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12:05 AM
@HostileFork You can get GPS tracking devices attached to pets. RFID only works for short distances.
 
@GrahamChiu I think houses are small enough that you could just walk around and wave something and see if you're in the vicinity... GPS is 10m I think
 
@HostileFork you sure cat was inside the house?
 
Well yes, as she was found inside later. Unless she has a secret door by which she escapes and gets back in later I am unaware of.
 
I have a tracking device for my dog but the batteries run flat quickly so I don't use it anymore.
 
Dogjack
 
12:09 AM
I wonder what size a black box battery is .. since they last 30 days
 
Very depressing reading about the plane, the ferry
 
Malaysian Airlines could have paid extra for satellite tracking ...
 
There was an unusual amount of Lithium cargo on the plane, I saw
 
international communities should not have to cough up on account of MAH's cheapness.
 
I find it interesting, that the Lusitania... ostensibly a passenger vessel that was sunk by the Germans... where the Germans claimed it was carrying munitions... and the furor over the sinking of it was used as motivation to get involved in the war...
They dug it up. It was carrying weapons.
 
12:13 AM
@HostileFork a lot?
 
@GrahamChiu Well, rounds of bullets
I found this an interesting read about project Azorian interesting also.
One of the things about being a conspiracy theorist is that there are so many acknowledged wacky things that are happening, thus trying to argue about things no one besides yourself sees (when the provable things are just ignored) is a major waste of one's time.
But I do think it is important in a sense, that if one is going to try and hold high moral ground, you shouldn't start wars based on lies and what you think "the public will buy". Which happens way too often.
 
Regarding my http suggestion, only had one comment from maxim, so looks like little interest
 
It devolves into an ends justifies the means sort of thing; not very appealing (to me).
@GrahamChiu I'll comment, I might have missed the suggestion. What is it?
 
@HostileFork you've already commented
I think the best idea is just to fork the protocols
 
@GrahamChiu I sent Michael Hartl your logs/feedback on Softcover, and pointed him to blackhighlighter.org to see if he had any suggestions.
 
12:20 AM
@HostileFork And?
 
And... I just sent it.
Had to wait until I had a stable deployment not set to expire of blackhighlighter.
I found this interesting thing being done by EFF on contacting Congress, which is what it was initially designed for: eff.org/deeplinks/2014/04/tech-volunteers-eff-needs-your-help
They are not focusing on this angle, rather trying to build an API to second-guess the congress contact system. Sort of like those apps on the phone for "get a human" where they debug phone trees for you.
I had another case of demonstrating my savvy the other day where my dad was trying to call the electric company about a billing error leading to them going to cut off the electricity, but he couldn't get a person on the phone and it was after normal hours.
I said "give me the number" and pushed the "report an electrical outage" button.
"It's not an outage, but it will be. The billing office is closed. Who can I talk to?"
 
12:54 AM
@HostileFork gas outages tend to produce a higher response
 
1:09 AM
So anyone have a Rebol ad idea? I would like to send an ad proposal to Carl.
As part of my "please, please, help us help you" campaign.
 
Why don't we just cut our ties to Carl?
That's what dockimbel has done
 
1:27 AM
@GrahamChiu Because Carl invented Rebol. And Rebol is a good name, and established, and a rallying thing. And I drew a nice icon for it.
Carl deserves credit for the invention.
And it's open source. Did it take a long time to get there? Yes, it did
 
@HostileFork Not good enough. He's cut his ties ... why do we keep waiting for him when left the building?
 
But it's there. And the next fight is about organization of how to manage the repository. Let us finish it with good arguments and take care of it.
@GrahamChiu Well you weren't at Recode; he flew out. He had enough interest to do that. I think he's interested just skeptical of what will happen to it out of his hands.
 
@HostileFork just not enough interest to keep at it.
Cut the apron strings, move on ...
 
@GrahamChiu If we cut it we cut the name too. We might call it "Red-Lite"
Or "Red-ANSIC"
But it's his name
And his general concept.
And as frustrating as it has been, and as strongly as one might want to go a new direction... well if that's your angle, then Red is right there.
I think the timeline is a bit over optimistic and certain deadlines have already been missed; usual for any software project
I read an article about the Gecko layout engine
And how it was not well geared to splitting into process-per-tab
It was pointed out that if Firefox switched to Webkit under the hood, few would know.
Firefox is a brand.
It's an icon and a concept. So with Rebol.
The question is how much of the history and the current mission will remain relevant. I think the mission continues to be relevant... a Rebol built on a baseline ANSI C toolchain
That will be useful even with a fully functional and possibly superior Red.
Being patient with Carl's seeming lack of empathy requires one to have empathy for his own situation. I'm sure at one time he had big starry eyed ideas of Rebol taking over the world. And having to trail away and hand it over, after 15 years of thinking about the problem, isn't necessarily the best feeling.
So I understand the reluctance and slowness in some sense. I have to not be me to understand it.
Because I hyperventilate whenever I get a pull request like "oh, attention!"
"someone thinking about something I think about!"
"email...beeped phone at 4am...must...get...up...and...triage..."
That's me. I'm different.
Forth guy never called me. He thought it was a trap.
He diagnosed it as a Voice over IP number. How profound he is!
 
1:52 AM
I need reminding of what the actual process is at present but Carl has handed over the ability to accept PRs as I understand it .. so why are we stalled? Do we need to setup some formalism?
 
@GrahamChiu As I said, the bar for the process being finalized is @earl's feeling he has been given authority. He has technical ability to do it, but needs to not think he is overstepping a boundary by doing so. Carl has expressed ambivalence about certain commits.
My argument is that the harm done by not being able to accept commits to a named "development branch" exceeds the problem that might be created if stable refused to accept certain commits.
And it seemed we were on that frequency, and I think we can still close that deal.
Keep the rebol name, keep github/rebol/rebol and all that.
Just seems to be going slower than any of us might like
 
I saw a UDP implementation recently .. has that been accepted?
 
Nope.
But I told you I was going to send a thing about the next ad cycle
And recruiting for Rebol and try to reiterate a voice to the concerns
So... think about what ad I need to draw, I've got... a few hours
 
github.com/rebol/rebol and the last commit was 2 months ago
If there's something Carl doesn't like .. he can always come back and tell us why
And not as though any changes can't be changed again
 
@GrahamChiu Yes, this is the point of view to take
 
2:01 AM
Do we even have experimental builds still?
 
rebolsource.net builds from master, which is supposed to be experimental
 
Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ. Cool, you have a reputation score of 365 so chat away!
 
There is a stable branch in existence.
@Zava Success kid! Recently used in a code golf SE ad...
To what I consider to be success. :-)
I saw success kid is about 4 now
@GrahamChiu I appreciate your frustration and share it. I think that the best way to frame such problems is as an "IF X THEN Y" layout. Adding @ShixinZeng to the repo as a collaborator representative from Atronix, and @Ladislav as a representative from Saphirion seems like it would be a good way to balance the interests.
But there has to/had to be a time of the open source movement to see who'd stick around. BrianH is a walking Rebol encyclopedia but he just isn't putting the time in.
 
Just wondering why anyone would make PRs if they don't get accepted
Time to move on to more active projects
 
Well I haven't made any lately, off on other things.
So yes, let's tie this up. Either we do it or don't.
I'll make a last appeal. It will be my last one.
I should probably do that lit-quote decay PR
And cite Red's acceptance of that. If it is not accepted, and my cry falls on deaf ears, we become the [Red Programming Language] room. Is anyone opposed?
 
2:12 AM
I suggest we become the rebol2 programming language room!
 
Getting out my magic 8-ball
I guess that could be interpreted a number of ways.
 
yeah, moved to gmail
hmm. When did rebolsource.net and rebol.info start being the same?
@rgchris said he could look at putting a wiki on QM for rebol.info
 
Well no one is helping me with the Rebol ad campaign. I said I was going to point out the Red ad success, and say we want to do Rebol next cycle. Here is what I started with:
As per the whole restaurant suggestion thing... you have to suggest better. Same size though.
 
why the nested quotes for?
 
I think the ability to nest is interesting.
 
2:20 AM
why advertise when there's no activity here in terms of progression?
 
Yes, that is the point of the message I want to send to Carl
That we are at what constitutes a seemingly needless breaking point
We would like to have a conference in Philadelphia in October. We would like to launch ads. Our hands feel tied for seemingly... no reason
Chat attention hasn't just slowed down here, I logged into AltME and that's also at a standstill.
Seems easy enough to fix. Why not just fix it?
Call me crazy (everyone else does)
 
just place your ad
the ties you feel are imaginary
 
Well we have a few more weeks I think until the ad cycle starts again
In the past they run for 4 months at a time
You can't use the same ad again
 
Anyone here with the skills to setup an active development branch?
 
And more than enough skill to set up whatever he wants, but, pursuant with my argument with Geomol over World... creating one's own little universe isn't the point. It's about mobilizing a group action.
We don't want "Forbes America"
 
2:30 AM
@HostileFork Doesn't have tls
looks like rebol and rebolsource are one pair, and atronix and saphir are another
Presumably it has proved too much work to merge them into one again
 
@GrahamChiu Matthew 17:20 He said to them, "Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you."
Biblical quotes aside, c'mon. Not rocket science.
There is no decent rational reason for the divergence in Rebol codebases that exists at this time.
I think the meta.stackoverflow.com vs. meta.stackexchange.com split is an interesting case study
 
@HostileFork Yes, there is. Lack of computing time to do the work
 
They did it, and the first thing I did (of course!) was to go look to see if people would have meta stackoverflow rep suddenly to vote on the Red ad
They didn't, because they by default put all the questions from meta.stackoverflow onto meta.stackexchange. I had no button to push to migrate stackoverflow questions. I was irate and looking for a place to complain.
Before I found the time to complain, the question had been migrated.
Basically, they decided they were going to do the work; ground zero was "all questions go to meta.se and then on a case by case migrated to meta.so"
Sometimes things take care of themselves faster than you could complain about them.
 
What's the rationale for not just dropping main and supporting saphir/atronix instead?
 
Lousy names, can't draw a good picture for them.
 
2:43 AM
before they were not open, and now they are
 
Saphir doesn't publish often enough, they have an encapper they haven't published, Android builds not given back to the public.
Atronix more trustworthy.
Met David den Haring in person, trust him. Saphirion guy seems more mercenary, not a straight shooter.
 
And they probably have a logo already!
 
This is archæology. Just zone everything correctly.
Ever see "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo"?
In any case, I think it is precisely the long-tail history of Amiga computers, the demoscene, a language emerging from it, the name and the people... that is what gives this particular artwork its value.
I guess art is always a matter of taste.
 
3:05 AM
Batteries likely last a week and you can see how much exercise your cat gets.
The ones with bluetooth would allow you to sense them inside the house as well.
 
3:25 AM
write http://www.rebol.com [ HEAD / ]

now returns the last modified date correctly

Added a 'headers keyword in the write dialect to return the headers

page: write http://curecode.org/rebol3/view-tickets.rsp [ headers GET / ]

page/spec/debug/headers will now contain the headers for the page returned
and page/data will contain the web page data

See https://github.com/gchiu/Rebol3/blob/master/protocols/prot-http.r3
so, if you want to test do https://raw.githubusercontent.com/gchiu/Rebol3/master/protocols/prot-http.r3 and let me know if there are any issues.
Should we ask Kaj to get an https enabled version of rebol3 on tryrebol??
 
3:52 AM
>> parse [ 19-April-2014 ] [ date! ]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== true
 
>> parse [ true ] [logic!]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== false
 
>> parse reduce [ true ][logic!]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== true
 
3:53 AM
So, when does 'parse evaluate and when does it not?
 
 
5 hours later…
9:20 AM
>> type? first [true]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== word!
 
This has nothing to do with parse.
 
9:50 AM
@GrahamChiu parse never reduces.
 
so how does parse recognize datatypes?
because 19-April-2014 can not be a word?
 
The same way type? Does. It's just whatever the data it gets as input is.
 
so is there a form of a logic datatype that can be used without reduction first?
 
The nature of a rebol block series is that you can reflect the type of each element.
>> type? #[true]
 
>> type? first [#[true]]
 
9:54 AM
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== logic!
 
>> parse [ #[true] ] [ logic! ]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== true
 
Ok, that works then. Good to remember
Anyone object to asking Kaj to host a https capable R3 client?
 
We need to put https into the mainline and I propose we have come to the point that using Saphirion's is probably the best idea.
 
wouldn't it be simple to drop mainline and use a fork of theirs?
 
10:06 AM
Its not about easy or hard, but about being on the same page
And we do need to move forward
 
 
7 hours later…
4:51 PM
Petition to Carl sent.
@pekr I mentioned the Rebol2 console code he said he'd give us, again.
The main reason I don't complain about it missing is because I never used Rebol2
You don't miss what you never had.
Other mentions: UDP from @ShixinZeng, potential Philadelphia Recode planning from @rgchris, soliciting thoughts on COMBINE, the upcoming new ad cycle, the LIT-WORD! decay that has always annoyed me and that DocKimbel deemed worth fixing.
But most centrally, of course, the #1 issue: delegation of integrations on the master/experimental branch of GitHub Rebol.
I think the meta stackoverflow migration inadvertently broke the open source ad system, so it may be the informal end of the Red ad run.
 
 
3 hours later…
8:03 PM
@HostileFork - thanks for the Console situation update. I think that as far as Red is concerned, its console will soone enough be even better than R2's one. But - I don't understand the SO situation in regards to an Ad and the SO "meta" change ...
 
The ads were driven by a post on meta stackoverflow, and when the meta stackoverflow was moved to meta stackexchange then the ad post moved back, it seemed to break in the process
Ads run in 4 month periods so time was pretty much up anyway
I was thinking of doing a Rebol ad next
But I had hoped we would have more progress on the delegation of daily operations on the repository to the community before actively advertising on a "we need developers" angle.
 
8:19 PM
my understanding is, that R3 is not in a good shape. Well, don't get me wrong, I can menatlly support any Rebol like language, but from what I can observe, it is important to have a central lead. And Red, even if still way behind the R3, has the most active movement, at least at the publicly visible level ....
And of course - no offense, it is just my observation and opinion ...
 
I think it is the most mature system and its construction on a standard C toolchain is important for some audiences.
Atronix and Saphirion develop using it, so there is corporate sponsorship.
It will be some time before they can consider Red based solutions
 
You mean - R3? Well, yes, it is. Back the lack of Carl's participation is really visible. We can see Atronix and Saphirion doing some changes, but is there a precise roadmap. I still somehow consciously feel, that R3 has lost its momentum.
 
I think visible momentum could come back simply by having the community managing the GitHub.
People are doing work... It's just that one needs to be able to rally around a clear central point
 
So the problem is, that Carl is not managing PRs, not is he allowing to delegate the work to others ... yet?
 
I felt we had agreement that master branch would be taken care of by integrators (Andreas, Ladislav, etc.) And then stable branch Carl could pick what he wanted and we'd auto build both. Best of both worlds.
Unfortunately, me feeling this understanding was reached has not translated into a clear, unambiguous, Austrian-satisfying statement of intent from Carl :)
 
8:33 PM
Well, that's just .... Carl :-)
There really is a need to let few ppl, some kind of board (though he does not like desing by commitee) to take over official distro, and then, having some parallel "Carl only" branch, allowing him to manage his own view on R3 ...
In some Czech literature, there is a saying "Lomicar Lomicar, you will see - in one year and one day ..." ... my gues is, that in one year and one day, Carl posts his first PR to Red ;-)
 
That is what we are calling "stable". The goal is not to sneak in things Carl would not like. It is to expedite things he would, get experience and test changes, basically delegating so others can do the work for him.
 
The main problem imo is, ppl's free time. You can see e.g. BrianH here sporadically. I have also not met Ladislav here nor on AltMe for more than few months ...
Cyphre mostly works in undercover too :-)
That really does not help. Doc seem to get attraction of few developers. So yes, Red is still behind. But in one year, it will surpass R3 anyway, if there really is no wake-up call for R3 related efforts ...
 
My prediction is that Rebol's future new users will come from Red. They will become used to it but find themselves stuck in a problem whose specification requires a standard toolchain.
Rebol will thus become the Ren for C...with a bonus evaluator.
 
Whatever scenario happens in a possitive manner, is good for us. The world is not waiting - HTML, CSS, JS, its frameworks, are all moving forward ...
 
Yes, more speed would be nice, but I don't think HTML/CSS/JS are playing the same game.
In any case, being patient to keep and centralize on the name is coherent, preserves history and is about as neutral as we have. I hope we can finally get the stakes in the ground.
 
8:51 PM
btw - any short reference to COMBINE? Dunno what the fuss was about and not having enought time to go and read much in the past ... Just few pointers?
 
9:17 PM
Thanks, will read it tomorrow ...
 
9:39 PM
I've seen Cyphre yesterday and he said he's going to port his Rebol JIT compiler to R3.
 
Well, what for? To be on pair with Red? :-)
AFAIK his project is old for some 5-8 years? He wanted to make it commerciallly available. It was never made public. Why now?
 
10:08 PM
@rebolek as open source or just for their business products?
 
Pekr, he has just R2 version now, it has to be partly rewritten for R3 (64bit integers and some other things) and why now? Well, why not? :)
@GrahamChiu It should be open-source.
He accepted he's not going to make money with it.
 
@rebolek sounds good. I never knew he had finished the R2 version.
 
Working version, not sure how finished it is.
 
What do people think of adopting the Saphir branch for further development?
Or Atronix. We can still call it Rebol 3.
 
I'm fine with it.
 
10:23 PM
@GrahamChiu It's definitely the direction to be leaning toward, but we need to make sure it is #ifdef'd properly to be able to do a core build.
So if the graphics code has been baked in, in some awkward way, that needs to be addressed.
 
@HostileFork As well as the builds to other platforms?
 
Yes, not losing any platforms in the core builds is important also.
If the GUI won't build for OS/X then, well, who expected it to?
@earl did some stats on the diffs though. They will need to be gone over.
Sep 15 '13 at 22:48, by earl
For anyone wondering, here's the current diff stats between mainline and Saphir: 227 changed files with 62,090 additions and 4,441 deletions
We kind of have to go file by file and look at what they've changed.
And there's not any real harm in just accepting GUI code if it's #ifdef'd out of a core build, so that wouldn't have to be audited...because it's all we have
Just audit all the core changes
 
Yes. No need to merge back, just make sure can build core and other platforms from their code.
Or at least disable calling any gui libraries.
 
10:41 PM
I still would like to see an Amiga build get revived.
I thought a good marketing goal was the "wall of binaries". For lots of crazy systems, anything we can find that it compiles on.
I maintain that there is room for two brands, and no more. That's [Rebol and Red], not [Rebol and Red and Saphir and Atronobol and Topaz and World and Boron and ORCA].
Or whatever.
If people have forks and other ideas, that's all fine and well.
But as with code itself, good marketing is the result of successful focus and attention...not leaving it up to the chaos and expecting the environment to "just sort itself out"
Oh, the third winning brand I think is [Ren].
But as it's posed as a shared standard format it need not be put in the forefront.
Extensions: .ren, .reb, .red, .reds
I strongly discourage .saph or .atreb or any of that, or a Saphir [] header or Atronobol [] header. There is too much value in coming together and too little value in diverging.
I haven't gone to the beach since I've been here.
I guess I should go.
 

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