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12:14 AM
@DocKimbel asked about what I thought of integrating circuit patterns, and I said it could be a theme. But we're from the future. :-) So maybe allude to more futuristic things in some imagery, like PhoneBloks...
(Details aren't worked out on the grid, just a visual theming concept)
 
 
1 hour later…
1:40 AM
the kerning, the kerning!!!!
 
1:51 AM
@kealist Jeez, give me a second already...
 
@HostileFork :) It is looking great
and the Rebmu talk was good. Glad you did decide to edit that one
 
Cool, thanks. Well do share it around. If no one knows it's there, no one'll watch it... but we do have to get that recode.rebol.net site up and taking names for the next one.
 
@HostileFork Will do.
 
2:10 AM
 
2:24 AM
Logo experiments?
 
@BrianH Hey. Long time... welcome back. Stay back! :-)
logotype as opposed to icon or logo experiments, yes.
 
@HostileFork Don't worry, the bulk of the crisis has passed :)
I kinda had to take over the API design at the company, or at least be a rather insistent voice.
So, Saphir is on Github now? Are they taking pull requests?
 
The E seems to have some thematic similarities to the ToH logo.
 
@BrianH I've been busy editing to get some of the videos ready, so I haven't had much time to check in on coding. I did look closely enough to see there wasn't a build target that could produce an .APK for Android, and that the code hadn't been generated as a difference (even a very large one) from Rebol's GitHub. I was told @earl was working on cleaning some of that kind of thing up so that pull requests to common code could be managed in common... so... I didn't look further yet.
@BrianH Yup, that's the idea. The logotype will probably be used in places the icon is not present, so nice to have the suggestion
 
2:36 AM
Anyone have much luck getting R3 compiling on a good IDE on Mac? It's hard to run Visual Studio anymore. I tried to get Parallels working on my work computer so I wouldn't have to kill my back carrying two laptops, but all I get when I run it is the tasteful grey screen of death. I scarcely get to work on Windows anymore.
 
@BrianH Nope, haven't done a mac build...
 
What's the current state of @earl's CMake stuff?
 
@BrianH It's published as a WIP if you want to look, but I haven't tried that either...
 
@HostileFork I had a lot of luck with CMake on Windows. Maybe I should try it again, now that I have more git experience.
 
@BrianH did you catch the Rebmu edit?
 
2:41 AM
@HostileFork not yet, I've been socially offline for the most part since the conference. Checking it out now.
 
There you have the Matrix AND the towers of Hanoi. :-)
 
Fun presentation. I missed the intro live, nice to see it.
 
2:56 AM
So....is encapping Rebol3 going to be one of the open-source parts of Saphir?
 
@kealist This file, from Saphirion and in the "r3bazaar" looks like an early piece of work toward it, but this file is not in the open sourced Saphir... so no knowledge of how it might have expanded, and the plans are as yet not completely explained.
 
3:13 AM
And here we have the Matrix, Towers of Hanoi, and... Dig Dug:
 
3:24 AM
So, aside from the Saphir release to github and the start of Rebol 64bit support on Linux (which I still never use), what else has been going on? What's the status of the URL rearrangement?
 
posted on September 14, 2013 by BrianH

[Comment] Ladislav, TRUE? was initially implemented for generating logic values to be stored. Operators weren't the issue at all. It's tricky to mix infix and prefix syntax in Rebol (many parentheses required), and TRUE? is mezzanine so it's not an efficient operation either (yet), so at the time it just never occurred to us to use TRUE? with logical operators. For the most part it makes more s

 
@BrianH it turned out recode.rebol.net is controllable, so i put up that static page what u see to test it
@BrianH how do u define good IDE on a Mac? it builds from the command line.
@BrianH also there is ssh -p 2233 rebol@mac.rebol.info for people who don't have a mac but want to try to compile/debug under an actual mac.
 
3:41 AM
@onetom one that has a lot of code analysis tools. I fixed a lot of bugs in Rebol after the open sourcing by loading @earl's CMake build in Visual Studio and using its code analysis tools, goto definition, etc. Many of them were cross-platform or Linux-specific bugs, which VS caught even though they weren't Windows code. If I can't use tools of comparable ability, there are whole classes of problems I'll have a lot of difficulty with.
 
Grrrrrrr I found a bug in call a few minutes ago, but cannot replicate...
 
4:01 AM
Think I like the R better without the knee bend. It doesn't space as cleanly from the E but it parallels what's going on with the angle of the D on the bottom.
 
>> map-each f [%test.reb %12as] [exists? f]
== [file none]
Is there something that you could apply a function to a list and just not return the none values
?
resulting in just [file] above, without just manually removing all the nones
After having my head in Haskell for the past two weeks, I keep looking at the definition of map, which certainly isn't the same thing :)
 
4:22 AM
@kealist collect [foreach f [%test.reb %12as] [if result: exists? f [keep result]]] ?
 
4:35 AM
@HostileFork Thank you, unfamiliar w/ collect
 
@kealist map-each f [%test.reb %12as] [either exists? f [f] [()]]
If you return an unset value from map-each it doesn't add the value.
 
Okay, that's the happiest I've been so far. I know I cheated and took a few of those knobs off but it's not worth ruining the typography for an interesting theming idea. The D needs to curve cleaner though on those turns on the interior right.
 
@BrianH bam! sweet! That is what I was looking for! Can we stick that in help map-each?
 
@kealist Nope, too many characters. It should be on the help web page though.
For that matter, I should update Rebol on this system. The version I have has a too-long doc string for map-each, it wraps on Windows.
 
4:41 AM
@BrianH what is the length limit?
 
For the top doc string, practically 71 characters. I usually try to keep it to 70.
 
quod erat demonstrandum. I believe that is it. I also like the fact that it looks like someone seated and piloting a rocketship.
 
It could be 72 characters I suppose. It adds an extra newline in some cases. The help function indents 8 characters, and the console window is 80 characters wide.
 
5:06 AM
@BrianH just need to make documentation outside of the executable all consistent
I never know what I should look at
 
Well, the doc string was never meant to be comprehensive. You were always supposed to be able to access a web page with more docs, using help/doc.
 
"help/doc" is a weird name, is there any existing convention of the "anti-only". As in "give me an extended version of what you ordinarily do"?
 
Currently it looks like docs brings up the web documents. help/doc isn't a thing
 
What I don't like is that either pattern. It's too awkward to generate unsets (non-values), much more so than generating none. That code pattern is too awkward for something that is necessary to skip a value in map-each. I wonder if continue works properly in map-each, that would make for a much more sensible pattern.
@kealist I was looking at an old version of Rebol on this system. Glad to know the command is smaller.
 
@HostileFork we just need to have help/only and map-each/only!
 
5:15 AM
Hmm. It's there, but there's docs too. I don't like "docs" as a word. What if help launched whatever reference you configured it to, and defaulted to the web reference... and "usage" was re-purposed to get the basic usage information for a function?
 
@RebolBot
help/doc
 
Yup, continue works too. map-each f [%test.reb %12as] [either exists? f [f] [continue]]
 
wait, @RebolBot is gone!
@BrianH sweet. That is much nicer
 
usage rebol could give you the command line arguments, instead of something that looks like probe rebol... and help could go to the web.
Then there'd be help, probe, and usage. The ? operator that people like so much could decide whether to do a probe or a usage call.
@RebolBot
rebol: func [foo [integer!]] []
help rebol
Well anyway, I guess RebolBot is gone. But turns out you can actually do that, so I guess usage rebol wouldn't work for the command line arguments.
But couldn't rebol just do --help on the command line like other programs?
 
@HostileFork I think it should. But we still need an internal help for people who use it interactively.
 
5:23 AM
@HostileFork this excerpt reminded your chiuwawa example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UbARVx-cq8&feature=player_embedded#t=42
you did it very authentic. not belgian probably, but still very funny :)
 
@onetom Dr. Rebmu just attended university and does work in Belgium, he's a world traveler and has picked up a very hard to pin down accent. :-)
 
On some platforms there is no decent command line, or (as on Windows) Rebol doesn't integrate with the command line well. Sometimes you can't use a --help command line argument.
 
@HostileFork :D very good excuse
 
@BrianH Well, USAGE was the word I was looking for to let HELP be web by default. Maybe it could also accept some special words like USAGE 'command-line.
 
@HostileFork we want help or something equivalent to be able to work without network access.
 
5:33 AM
@BrianH Well, okay a naked HELP could give you a basic introduction to what help features there are and where to go look. e.g. point out help.rebol.org, where non-naked HELP would usually take you. That way people with network access could go there...and you could mention BROWSE help.rebol.org too. It would tell you about USAGE, PROBE, and ?
If you haven't seen help.rebol.info, @rgchris has staged a prototype of what we're planning for help.rebol.org
If you pass USAGE a word value from a known list, it will offer up a bit of stored information you might forget from that list, but not want to go to the web to get, or be inconvenient as you mentioned.
 
Looks nice, though I'm not as much a fan of the skeumorphism. As long as we have something similar to help (immediate reminder help available offline), help/doc (browse the web page for the function), and why? (browse the web page of the last error). The names aren't bad, but I don't insist on them, as long as they're all there. The most important is the no-network one, since it should be supported on more systems and in more circumstances.
 
@BrianH Works for me. I have no problem with ? remaining as it is in functionality. HELP/DOC is just not really discoverable or memorable enough. USAGE is short enough and makes sense to me. "How do I use this thing, whatever this thing is?"
usage "Hello" => "Hello" is a value of type string!. These are common functions you can use with strings: (...)
 
5:48 AM
@HostileFork well, the first thing someone types is help. That is the most important one to be available offline. With no parameters, help should provide every bit of immediate discoverability you need, no browser needed. If you use usage or docs or whatever, it should be mentioned by what help with no arguments returns.
 
@BrianH I'll draw up a proposal. But also, in the "let us decide and bury hatchets on things" category, I have decided that instances of /ONLY can be made acceptable through a few methods.
 
@rebolbot present
 
One is by teaching it early and having a reasonable explanation for what it is. This means immunizing people early to why it exists... when a "valuable" word for an operation is empirically shown to be statistically more often to mean doing something that would usually require an extra refinement. Getting rid of a warty thing like PRIN and instead making it PRINT/ONLY can teach and justify the principle.
 
Hmm. Dead
 
A second is by taking the splicing by default operations and not letting them splice things of differing types -- only if they match. So append [a b c] quote d/e/f would get you [a b c d/e/f] and not [a b c d e f]. This would fix many of the most irritating bugs that I've hit.
 
5:53 AM
@HostileFork I have a new proposal for /only similar to the /into spec. The trick is that it would only be allowed when the option takes a parameter that the "only" restriction refers to. With no parameter, the subject is ambiguous. So, resolve/only would be OK, since it's unambiguous.
 
@rebolbot present
 
The definition I have in mind is that /ONLY should never change the number of parameters something takes. It's just a way of saying that although you would think FOO baz bar would at its most basic level of what the word meant only do a more atomic thing, people usually want it to do something more as well. The PRINT/ONLY being a good first example.
 
Gotta go, I'll go online again in around an hour.
 
@BrianH K, well I'm going to run to bed myself. But good you're back and yeah, it would be nice to see these issues nailed down and also checked with @DocKimbel. He seemed to be happy enough with the idea that only matching types would be spliced if /ONLY was unspecified and that's a beginning compromise, and also thinks that a suppressing refinement on PRINT could be a nicer alternative than "PRIN"
 
@rebolbot ..
@RebolBot Can you elaborate on that?
@RebolBot What do you mean?
@RebolBot What do you mean?
@RebolBot Please continue.
@RebolBot Please continue.
 
6:07 AM
@RebolBot delete
 
@RebolBot That's very interesting.
@RebolBot What?
 
@RebolBot shut up
 
@RebolBot What?
WTF??
@rebolbot present
Hmm. Someone has been playing with the source. I don't have time to debug this though.
@RebolBot Can you elaborate on that?
@RebolBot What do you mean?
@RebolBot What do you mean?
 
@HostileFork is there a "shut up" command that shuts the bot down??
 
I will reiterate the importance of the "speaking out of turn count" safety measure. Whatever internal bug may cause it, at the low protocol level RebolBot should not speak more than N times unless someone else has said something. Giving room admins the chance to say "shut up" (or whatever it's called).
 
6:12 AM
@HostileFork So, has someone implemented this?
 
Aug 19 at 12:28, by HostileFork
"yet" being the operative word, there. Also there needs to be a way for room administrators to say @RebolBot shut up
 
I've been somewhat busy with work so haven't been around
 
Aug 19 at 13:07, by johnk
@HostileFork it works. Room admins can tell the bot to shut up and it will ... permanently
@GrahamChiu That's okay. Be sure to catch the edited Rebmu talk...
 
Sigh ...
The bot was working fine when I was last here
@HostileFork I think I saw it live ..
 
@GrahamChiu You didn't see it edited, though. It's down to under 8 minutes, more or less good given the quality of the source material on that one. Trying to make it something non-Rebolers might find interesting and quickly watchable, so hopefully we can get it out and it catches on somewhere.
 
6:16 AM
Ok, create a new room and see if I can sort what is going on :(
 
@GrahamChiu Good luck, I'm off to bed... but I'd say prioritizing the speaking out of turn shutdown is more important than fixing any particular bug! If it's speaking out of turn, that's a perfect time to be testing that. :-/
 
@HostileFork I've got about 10 mins and then I have to get back to work
 
@GrahamChiu Well, the bot can be down for a bit... it's been a slow weekend. Not to worry.
Nite!
 
@HostileFork nite
** Access error: protocol error: "Server closed connection"
Not a good start ...
@johnk I've emailed you about Rebolbot .. I've left it down. Keeps having protocol errors.
 
@GrahamChiu Just reading back through the threads. I'll read the email and see what is going on. Just about to have a group of friends over for a bbq so tricky timing
 
6:53 AM
FYI @rebolbot says she is feeling unwell and will be taking a short and well earned break for rest and recuperation
 
7:45 AM
posted on September 15, 2013 by Ladislav

[Comment] "there would still be a need for them after conditional operators are implemented" - aha, thought-provoking! Would there be a need for them in such case? This might require a user poll asking people why are they using or needing them. "We could simplify things by dropping support for C-like zero-to-false conversion (the main difference between TO-LOGIC and TRUE?)" - I (just one user,

 
@BrianH Certainly, we will be happy to find out there are pull requests to accept.
 
8:18 AM
@BrianH 64-bit support is still in a transition state, as you may find out, but tests were performed on OS X as well; you may have noticed my batch of function-revamping pull requests; no progress on URL revamping or string revamping yet
 
 
6 hours later…
2:18 PM
posted on September 15, 2013 by Ladislav

[Bug] See the example code

 
 
1 hour later…
3:37 PM
The R's front leg is too skinny. Fixed. But other than that, I'm not noticing too much wrong this morning.
 
User poll: have you ever needed to convert zero to #[false] in Rebol?
(this is what 'to logic!' does)
 
@Ladislav Yes, but I never used TO-LOGIC for it. (But rather NOT ZERO? or POSITIVE? or similar.)
 
posted on September 15, 2013 by Ladislav

[Comment] In the core-tests suite.

 
3:53 PM
I don't really use TO conversions very often if I can avoid it because I'm never quite sure what they'll do, and it's always unclear if they'll be reversible or irreversible, or lossy or lossless. So I'd use NOT ZERO? etc. also.
>> to block! "abc"
== [abc]
So for instance, why did that turn the string into a word inside a block?
There need to be simple, memorable rules to refer to. Like if something isn't an ANY-BLOCK! then it will be wrapped in a block as a single unchanged value. If it is an ANY-BLOCK! then it will retain its structure as is but with the outer type as BLOCK!
Given that Rebol has a philosophy of IF considering a value of 0 to run the branch as true, I would expect TO LOGIC! 0 in the Rebol world to be TRUE. It's confusing that it isn't because it's not clear what Rebol's rules are.
I personally like not equating 0 and false and being more explicit about it. What exactly is so intrinsically false about zero? Maybe all prime numbers are true and all non-primes are false. Maybe negative numbers are false. If a language has a consistent philosophy, people can learn it and say "all right, I get it, moving on..."
But otherwise you get the aformentioned WAT each and every time a new inconsistency is hit?
 
4:31 PM
@HostileFork Your example is unfortunate. What you obtained is very reasonable.
 
@Ladislav I don't think it is. How is it reasonable?
 
@HostileFork To block! is used to convert Rebol source (string) to an internal format. You cannot get anything more useful than that.
 
to block! quote (a b c) gives me [a b c]. There is nothing "LOAD"-like about it, and a rule like "if something is an ANY-BLOCK! then it will retain its structure as is but with the outer type as BLOCK!, but if it is a string it will be LOADed as Rebol source and then put into a BLOCK!, but if it is a date it will be wrapped as a single entity inside of a block unchanged, and if it's a boolean it will return an empty block if FALSE or a block with the word "true" in it if it is true..."
If I wanted to block! load "abc" I would have written that.
 
OK, other to block! examples are much less useful and questionable, yes. But to block! string simply is not.
 
Why is it useful to have strings LOAD implicitly instead of asking explicitly if you want that?
 
4:37 PM
Because to block! is not LOAD.
Not even for strings
LOAD string does something else than just to block! string
 
>> help to
USAGE:
TO type spec

DESCRIPTION:
Converts to a specified datatype.
TO is an action value.

ARGUMENTS:
type -- The datatype or example value (any-type!)
spec -- The attributes of the new value (any-type!)
Hmm. I didn't notice the "spec", I thought it was a value. Is there anything like to integer! ["DECAFBAD" format: hex]? Is this extensible?
 
It is extensible in the sense that it has been extended several times.
 
5:24 PM
Alan Kay - Normal Considered Harmful
this is an amazing talk. alan kay talks very directly about the current sad situation
 
5:43 PM
@HostileFork - nice logo. Does it work for Doc? Will it use plain Red background, or the PCB one? Also - there is still some potential with the R letter ... I mean the higher part, where there is a gap ... could be animated, filling the gap, e.g. Red version of progress bar, etc.
 
@pekr Thanks. Well, a logotype should be monochrome by definition... just thinking about theming ideas which might be used on the website, posters, etc. etc. Doc liked the direction of the three lines in the E but didn't like them "leaning" and wanted something that looked more structured and stable.
@onetom Recode talks have better editing. :-)
 
I don't like tower of hannoi at all :-(
 
@pekr The rendering isn't perfect, and not everyone is going to like any particular icon. But for the kind of thing that goes in an OS/X dock something like that is good. It's a motif that can be picked up in all kinds of other ways. (Such as the E in Red.)
 
who the hell cares of irrelevant company/system? What is OS-X after all? ;-)
 
An isometric tower in that form is really just an app icon. It can be refined.
Okay @DocKimbel. Cancel the Mac version of Red, @pekr said! :-)
 
5:59 PM
If you gyus will use that skeumorphic real material finish, I am not going to use such logo anywhere. It is ugly as hell
It is almost impossible to realistically get onto t-shirt, etc.
 
Also following on my point about literally making all red related things Red, this is a good example where one shouldn't.
@pekr Some people like that sort of thing, some don't. Again: the versatility of picking a motif as opposed to really tying oneself to any one particular logo can let one adapt. I think the logotype is a good example of how you can do that.
Match the icon scheme of the OS you're targeting. But rally around a concept that is recognizable despite the adaptations. This is a "rallying point"; just as the Rebol [o] does not need to be 3-D and tilted. And I don't like the wood texture on the peg either, but I do think the rest is close... and would look good as a little pixel graphic on HaikuOS or whatever.
I just don't want Red or Rebol to be rallying around the idea of "starting with R" because that's just really... weak.
"A dialect of words in brackets" (reduced to the minimum of the word "o" in brackets, as a callback to the classic logotype) for Rebol. Then a "full stack language" (through metaphor of towers of Hanoi) for Red. Adaptations can abound.
 
posted on September 15, 2013 by Ladislav

[Comment] Fixed by https://github.com/rebol/rebol/pull/145

 
Red's Tower of Hanoi being specifically using square plates and being in a precise alignment, as opposed to the relatively forgiving discs, indicate a certain kind of meticulousness and more LEGO-like care of alignment. Also more distinct.
Now who's the first person who's going to build the Red tower in LEGO? You could build a working one that you could play the game on by leaving holes in the center and using the bumpless 2x2 tiles for the surface of each plate.
Then git a big baseplate, perhaps a gray one, and build the pegs off it while creating plate surfaces with similar tiles in gray.
@DocKimbel Merch idea: Packaged Red Tower LEGO kits from pieces bought in bulk. :-) Perhaps sending people a kit with instructions could be a thank you prize for kickstarter donations; with enough money, make the bulk purchase...
 
6:28 PM
@HostileFork With those blocks it is hard to build up a solid structure.
 
@iArnold Those would just be on the top surfaces of each plate; underlying would be a solid structure built with the necessary method; would involve lots of these I imagine:
 
@HostileFork Lost of those LoL!
17:37 background -1 not sure about the lego-ish dots inside the letters and how is the R if the point is not stuck out left?
And how about the square peg in the round hole for the Hanoi tower blocks ;-)
 
More likely a round peg in a square hole. :-)
I remember these rotating things... wonder what you get when you pull the top part off? One could drill a round hole of the appropriate size and make 3 custom pieces per set to go in the centers. :-) (Or 6 if you want to make matching bottom pieces for the plates with the drill... but 4x4 is easier to find if it's not a bumpless "tile")
@iArnold Doc sent me the electronic texture and it tiled so I threw it in. Remember, this is not the "logotype" it's just playing with it.
:1180067My opinion on the tail on the R is that it makes the logo "move" a bit more and makes the D and R look more like they're from the same interesting custom lettering. The tail on the D is necessary for kerning purposes, leading also to greater legibility for the letter D because it doesn't "turn flat" but has a continuous back stroke.
This R and D look like they're from different font families, and the tail helps bridge across that.
 
7:13 PM
@HostileFork The official description of the euro sign has the top of the E and the top dash being sliced by the same line. The same for the R here, the left line of the right foot of the R should cut the top of the R bow on the left side.
And I agree, that it moves the logo more, just looks like a 70's car with enormous wings on the back :D And indeed, playing around with it is the only way to do these things, doodling around for ideas.
Red is a tough name.
How do you add a picture? (png file here)
 
7:31 PM
@iArnold Next to the message text area are "send" and "upload" buttons. Using the "upload" button, you can directly post a picture.
 
I have a send and fixed font button. btw I hate "the Matrix" it is by far the most predictable SF film I have ever seen.
 
I don't have any upload button here ... maybe a FF problem ...
 
@pekr I have an upload button in FF as well.
 
Chrome here, Safari makes my laptop want to fly, always trouble with youtube/flash taking off.
 
@iArnold Any image hosted and posted as a URL will be "oneboxed" in a preview. The ability to upload images to be stored in chat itself requires 100 points or somesuch.
 
7:43 PM
@iArnold Ah, right, reputation barrier. Upload the image to e.g. imgur.com and post the URL here, as a single message with just the URL.
 
 
3 hours later…
10:46 PM
Saphir's GitHub repository saphirion/saphir has been re-created as a fork of mainline rebol/rebol.
5
If you forked saphirion/saphir on GitHub before, you might want to consider re-forking (so that GitHub can keep track of fork interrelation/lineage).
For anyone wondering, here's the current diff stats between mainline and Saphir: 227 changed files with 62,090 additions and 4,441 deletions
 
@earl Great!
 

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