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10:01 PM
to-hex has no /size refinement in R2. :-/ Best workaround?
 
@earl how goes the 'call implementation?
 
@RebolBot do trim/with/head next to string! to-hex 1 "00"
 
@HostileFork best workaround for binary conversions being portable between R2 and R3 is to write conversion functions for each platform that have the same external behavior but completely different internal implementations. Then use the conversion functions instead.
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-bad-refines.html
>> trim/with/head next to string! to-hex 1 "00"
*** ERROR
** Script error: incompatible or invalid refinements
** Where: trim
** Near: trim/with/head next to string! to-hex 1 "00"
 
If there are no more obvious bugs in rebolbot, I'll upload the new sources. I have not implemented checking by userid instead of username ...
 
10:04 PM
Why doesnt trim/with want to work with head?
 
/with
        str -- Same as /all, but removes characters in 'str' (char! string! binary! integer!)
It's the "Same as /all" part.
 
Oh. Characters in str, not the string itself. Hrm. I'd say that's a case for charset and not string, but people hate using charsets.
 
@GrahamChiu Good, only weeks to go! :)
 
@HostileFork I'd say it's a case for adding bitset! as one of the types accepted.
 
This code is a sort of cheap TRIM/WITH/HEAD. Feel free to make it a func and add error trapping
while [str/1 = #"a"] [remove str]
 
10:22 PM
@earl No, but...
do reb4.me/r/form-date
to-idate: func [date [date!]][form-date date "%a, %d %b %Y %T %z"]
Should redo 'form-date with 'reword if that's going to stick around...
 
@rgchris pad-precise is missing from the USE in form-date.r.
 
Crud, thanks!
 
@rgchris TO-ISO-WEEK as well.
 
That's shoddy. Will correct.
 
@rgchris Np, thanks :)
 
10:29 PM
Wait—is pad-precise in this version?
 
The one on reb4.me/r/form-date has it.
 
Never mind, looking at the wrong folder :(
 
Is there any known bug in R2 which would cause something like rejoin ["^^(" to-hex-string/size byte 2 ")"] to produce things like "^^(FF" without the closing paren? :-/
 
@earl Updated.
 
@HostileFork to-hex-string -- is that your code? Does it perhaps take 3 args?
 
10:43 PM
meh this chat is so technical nowadays. I came for the social aspect
 
@Sunanda Ah, darn it. Yes, I added a local to the end but didn't say "/local" so it just got picked as another argument...
@graph Well, we do a little of both.
 
@HostileFork Easy to do :)
 
That's not going to change. But we will be putting the dev discussion on developing the interpreters/compilers themselves and the bug reports in another channel.
 
a little of both is nice @HostileFork
 
Which means there'll be fewer esoteric bug discussions in C code kind of things, and all user-level.
 
10:46 PM
@graph You going to come to our conference?
 
.oO there's a conference?
 
Montreal in July—should be v. nice.
 
yea but I'm in Germany and Rebol-wise I haven't really done much besides Hello World
 
Ah, well—I'm sure my fellow european Rebollers will have their own sometime soon.
But 'Hello World' should be enough to get you in the door, I fancy.
 
also, you all seem like ...quite experienced veterans who are, at the height of your careers and after many successful projects and products, putting the icing on the cake by indulging in such an idealistic, progressive project like Rebol
 
10:49 PM
@graph I wouldn't describe it as indulgence—there's a real sense that Rebol is the future and we all want to see it happen.
2
 
while someone like me had to struggle to get his JSON in shape so that the javascript component would deal with it somehow. Project of my dreams half-finished.
@rgchris wouldn't mind getting a head start if this is actually the next big thing, but I am not hearing much hype about it on hackernews
 
@graph Perhaps, but then you don't always hear about the next big thing before it happens :)
 
actually however ,after reading up on the language creator sassenrath, I am actually inclined to believe that this is something "better" or more advanced than what I've seen before
2
I mean, I believe that the concept is sound
 
Anyway, it's not so much world domination that we want (ok, won't speak for everyone), but a development experience that doesn't suck—and one that scales the problems we face.
 
from reading this chat it seems that there are some rough edges though hm?
 
10:55 PM
That's the nature of development—where's the smooth, polished experience?
 
yea it's missing everywhere, sadly
it's languages, plugins, 3rd party components, copy&paste code
 
@graph We're considering also setting up a conference in Vienna, Austria in late August.
 
I work with a JS framework and a graphics library that are both new and ....rough too. the actual creators answering forum questions using explanations never heard before in any documentation
I'd come to Vienna
I always wanted to go to a conference like that
 
@graph R2 is pretty mature and smooth. R3 is still cooking.
 
@earl Vienna sounds great! It's really close from Brno where I live.
 
11:01 PM
@graph Recently I tried adding a location picker to an HTML form—integrating the map API was frustratingly verbose and inelegant, yet it's supposed to be modern and expressive. I wish JS API developers had a grounding in Rebol, I'd think they'd come up with much better solutions.
 
hm
 
That said, I probably wasn't using it right, but the documentation sucks.
 
yea there's so much out there, who has time to read documentation?
so many different ways things could have been implemented
who wants to follow these lines of thinking. Good case for a Rebol-grounding, or basically some kinds of standards how to do stuff
@rgchris what kind of thing were you doing with HTML and a location picker? pet project or work?
 
@graph Standards are good. Standards based on deep simplicity are even better. A blog post about simplicity: rebol.com/article/0509.html
 
@graph An as-yet unreleased venture of my brother's. Location picker is for a business directory within his field.
@graph I've nothing against documentation, except the kind that works against you.
 
11:15 PM
@Sunanda nice article
 
@RebolBot save "Simple" "Definition of Simple" rebol.com/article/0509.html
 
@rgchris nice, I love those kinds of projects. How difficult do you find the whole process, all the work that has to go into it? Programming, design, ..finding out how the thing is actually supposed to be used and what the users' needs are?
 
@rgchris added key: Simple
 
@graph Simultaneously love and hate it :)
First there's the definition of what the project is, then there's the slow realisation of what the project actually is.
 
@graph Carl (the original architect behind Rebol) has a lot of similar short essays that help shed light on the principles underlying Rebol. Another good one: rebol.net/r3blogs/0018.html
 
11:21 PM
so let's say you do a project and realize that somethign that used to be hard is now easy for you since you've done it before. Do you a) opt to just finish faster or b) keep the difficulty level the same by using different, new, more sophisticated solutions instead?
 
@graph I've been around long enough to, I hope, not fall into the second system effect any more....
The second-system effect refers to the tendency of small, elegant, and successful systems to have elephantine, feature-laden monstrosities as their successors. The term was first used by Fred Brooks in his classic The Mythical Man-Month. It described the jump from a set of simple operating systems on the IBM 700/7000 series to OS/360 on the 360 series. Explanation Although expressed as a problem of software design, the second-system effect is observable throughout all human design effort. It is somewhat akin to the idea of "fighting the last battle." People who have designed something ...
 
very nice
@Sunanda y'all have your conceptual foundation for building a better system, I like that.
I love this chat for representing an ideal programming buddy. Not that I ask him all the time, but I can glance over and see him working next to me, friendly experienced, wise, making all those abstract concepts real.....
2
 
@graph I prefer refinement—better methods of leveraging language to solve problems. Do it better with less.
 
11:38 PM
@rgchris same. No one can tell that "better methods have been leveraged" when the thing is done though so now I try to just finish
good night all and see you soon!
 
@graph Every new project is going to challenge your assumptions at some point.
 
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