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12:01 AM
Hello @Steve, welcome...
 
12:12 AM
If anyone (@rgchris, others) care to improve r2-string-to-binary, I've added it to the end of my Zen Cow answer.
3
A: How to use Unicode codepoints above U+FFFF in Rebol 3 strings like in Rebol 2?

HostileForkYes, there is a trick...which is the trick you should have been using in R2 as well. Don't use a string! Use a binary! if you have to do this sort of thing: good-workaround: #{F0908080} It would've worked in R2, and it works in R3. You can save it and load it without any funny business. ...

Needs to work in both R2 and R3
 
1:06 AM
@rgchris Can use a word! now for first argument to save
Has there been anything further done on a reset function as Carl was proposing?
@rebolbot save reset "reset proposition" rebol.net/r3blogs/0340.html
 
@GrahamChiu added key: reset
 
as mentioned in the blog, a reset function would be useful for fastcgi
 
@GrahamChiu we're actually talking about related issues in AltME right now, such as copy-on-write.
 
Hrrm, parse "foo" [some []] is an infinite loop in R2. :-/ What does one use if you want to be able to substitute a noop for a rule?
 
@BrianH in the non web public core room ...
 
1:18 AM
@HostileFork none
 
@BrianH Sensible enough. :-)
 
@GrahamChiu the discussion was heated. No need to web-publish things until they get more civil.
And that wasn't specifically the topic, it was something a lot less useful.
 
@BrianH In R2 parse "foo" [some none] is still an infinite loop, any equivalent?
 
@HostileFork yup.
Do you need something equivalent to R3's strictly-advancing some or any? Because that's a bit tricky.
 
@Respectech Perhaps you can save the attachment from the prot-send to see if the issue is the build attachment function, or whether it is in the smtp sending
 
1:25 AM
@BrianH Well I was just trying to get a situation like rule: either condition [blah blah] [none] parse "foo" [some [rule | "f" | "o"]] where the none substitution would be a no-op
 
@HostileFork Well, in parse there are two kinds of no-ops, none and skip. If you want to do nothing then none is better, but if you want to simply not match anything and advance anyway then skip is what you want.
 
@RebolBot save prot-send "Graham's prot-send.r for r3" github.com/gchiu/Rebol3/blob/master/protocols/prot-send.r
 
@GrahamChiu added key: prot-send
 
In the case above, I want to be able to match the "f" and the "o". So none is what I want.
 
If you want to fail and go on to the next alternate rule then you use fail in R3, or an always-failing rule like end skip in R2. Since the "f" rule is the next alternate, use [end skip] as your no-op.
 
1:30 AM
@Respectech you could also make the boundary value constant instead of dynamic at this line in both r2 and r3 versions so that they look the same
 
1:48 AM
@rebolbot save prot-smtp "Graham's prot-smtp.r for r3" github.com/gchiu/Rebol3/blob/master/protocols/prot-smtp.r
 
@GrahamChiu added key: prot-smtp
 
Pushed current bot-source to github just now
There are still a couple of clumsy things present .. but I think I'm done
@RebolBot Delete
 
@GrahamChiu sorry, it's too late to do this now. Be quicker next time
 
I have figured out one major confusion in my Unicode testing problems. It's simply this: the emitter doesn't always go through a file round-trip, Red can compile in memory to Red/System. If it does, what you need to do is different...you only escape the strings if they're getting written out to a file later on. This is why I would fix one thing and then see another break. :-/
It totally slipped my mind that it wasn't always going to a file!
 
Good thing you caught it :)
 
2:13 AM
@HostileFork Red always compiles scripts to memory in form of blocks of values (and not as a string script), that is why it is so much more efficient to use Red/System as a supporting lower layer rather than C or any other system language.
2
 
2:34 AM
@DocKimbel Yes but unicode-test.reds is a string script...so the practical concerns of the file based approach must be dealt with and work both ways. But also: I thought the plan was you could write it out as an intermediate file and get the .reds if you wanted?
 
@HostileFork That would be just for debugging purposes. I currently compile often in -v 2 mode to get the Red/System source output in console and debug it from there.
 
2:46 AM
Revised ReCon (Rebol/Red/Topaz/Boron Conference) proposed schedule:

Jun 15-16, 2013: Devcon in Montenegro [Awaiting more people to gauge interest - Pekr (Petr)]
Jul 13-14, 2013: Devcon in Montreal [Sounds like it is going to happen - Moving forward - Maxim (moliad) and Bo]
Aug (late), 2013: Devcon in Vienna, Austria [Early discussion stages - Earl]
Jan 4-5, 2014: Winter Break Devcon in N.CA (Sacramento or San Francisco or Davis or ...) [Too early to tell on this one - Bo]
 
3:07 AM
@RebolBot prot-smtp
 
@Respectech is reporting that email attachments are being corrupted on sending in r3/droid but not in windows
 
@GrahamChiu Not r3/droid, but r3/ARM.
r3/ARM Linux that is.
 
ah... ok :)
I wonder if Carl has forgotten he has a blog or a twitter account. he is now using git to explain his lack of time.
 
I wonder if Carl noticed that Twitter shut down their RSS feeds and requires you to have an account to be notified of new tweets, which made Twitter useless for a lot of purposes?
 
3:23 AM
It would save me some time if someone has a recently compiled build of R3 for ARM Linux. Anyone?
Building on a 700MHz processor might take a while...
 
** CARL SASSENRATH IS CONFIRMED FOR RECON IN MONTREAL** :-D
6
If anyone wishes to discuss Rebol and R3 in this critical phase of its existence... this will be a very good time to visit Montreal.
 
@Rebolbot keys
 
@GrahamChiu I know the following keys: About Aggregator AltJSON AltXML BadMoney bot-source chatmod CodeBlocks Colouriser crockford Devcon droid FAQ fiendish! HaikuOS help introduction PowerMezz prot-send prot-smtp R2/Forward Red Red-lang reset revolution? Saphir Simple Snowball tutorial xmlflawed
 
@Respectech rebolsource.net ??
@rebolbot save binaries "Experimental builds for R3" rebolsource.net
 
@GrahamChiu added key: binaries
 
3:59 AM
@RebolBot save AltWebForm "URL Encoded Forms Utils by rgchris" reb4.me/r3/altwebform
 
@rgchris added key: AltWebForm
 
@moliad Nicely done!
 
@rebolbot show links like reb4.me/r3
 
Almost consistent :)
 
4:01 AM
we'll have to add aliasing
I don't have a PC that runs 24/7 ... and all my servers run on ec2
 
@moliad I can make a site happen if you don't already have plans...
 
anyone want to run this bot for me?
 
@GrahamChiu I may be able to—I'll see if anyone else offers first.
 
It's running on my laptop which isn't ideal!
 
Be nice if Max's first announcement got a few more stars to keep it near the top of the starred list for a little while longer...
 
4:06 AM
his caps lock is broken
 
Not that one—the first one :)
 
Doesn't seem to be a way to sticky notices
 
More stars help to keep them afloat.
'cause stars are like balloons.
 
but if you can't see it you can't give it helium
@RebolBot save ReCon "Montreal Rebol/Red conference 2013" chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/8010873#8010873
 
@GrahamChiu added key: ReCon
 
4:40 AM
@HostileFork I'm not certain exactly what you expect as a result—I ran your function against the contents of raw.github.com/dockimbel/Red/master/red/tests/hello.red and lost all the high characters—just a lot of numbers instead (R2—append #{} 123 == #{313233})
How should a high character be encoded in your binary?
Would be very nice to be able to implement a 'quick-call scheme in R3 that echoes R2's CALL—it's easy to prototype features with at least that much capability...
 
KK.
4:55 AM
@rgchris thanks for the retweet :-)
@somekittens no thanks required. you wrote a great post
 
@KK. No worries, that's why I have that Twitter account :)
 
KK.
@rgchris Can I use your full name and url, if any? (and would you like to tell me the url?)
 
Yes—you can use reb4.me (even though the homepage is still only a placeholder).
 
KK.
@rgchris Thanks.
 
Or http://reb4.me/r/ which is a slightly more interesting list of scripts.
 
KK.
5:02 AM
@rgchris I think I will use both. morenotthanoften.blogspot.in/2013/03/…
Btw, I should have remembered ross-gill.com .... silly of me :-)
@neosag Hello. Rebol is an open source language. A very cool language if you ask me.
 
@KK. There is that, though I need to a) move hosts and b) rethink it.
Let's see if I get this right:
@RebolBot ? introduction @neosag
 
Hmm, I meant:
@RebolBot ? tutorial @neosag
 
KK.
@neosag Ever tried downloading visual studio? Rebol is as much big if you ignore the units, it is like 6-700 kb, and visual studio is like 6-700 mb.
 
@rgchris Introduction to Rebol @neosagneosag
 
KK.
5:09 AM
Same for XCode.
@RebolBot @rgchris @GrahamChiu cool.... :-)
 
make error! [
code: 201
type: 'Syntax
id: 'missing
arg1: "end-of-paren"
arg2: "("
arg3: none
near: "(line 1) for GrahamChiu cool.... :-)"
where: [to try process-dialect parse if foreach attempt forever catch either either -apply- do]
]
 
Hmm
 
@RebolBot @GrahamChiu —this didn't work right.
 
Looks like I need to do something about that
the bot uses a to block! on the text so invalid rebol values cause an error!
 
KK.
@rgchris I tried answering you and to include Graham. But since the message was to the bot, it took it as an input too.
 
5:12 AM
@RebolBot Dunno what happened here .. looks like it is not doing a copy
 
Limitation of SO references.
 
@RebolBot delete
 
@GrahamChiu done
 
Bear with us, @neosag !
 
@rebolbot help for neosag
 
5:13 AM
I respond to these commands:
do expression "evaluates Rebol expression in a sandboxed interpreter (/x)"
help "this help (/? and /h)"
keys "returns known keys (/k)"
remove key "removes key (authorised user) (/rm)"
save my details url! "saves your details with url"
save key [string! word!] description [string!] link [url!] "save key with description and link (/s)"
show links [ like url ] "shows saved links"
show me your youtube videos "shows saved youtube videos"
who is user "returns user details and page"
 
KK.
@RebolBot version
 
@KK. 0.0.13
 
@rebolbot faq for neosag
 
@GrahamChiu StackOverflow Chat FAQ @neosagneosagneosag
 
ooopps ....
yep, it's not doing a copy
 
5:14 AM
Gettin' sassy...
 
KK.
@neosag The bot likes you :-)
 
@RebolBot faq for kk.
 
@rebolbot faq for kk.
 
@GrahamChiu StackOverflow Chat FAQ @kk.kk.
 
5:18 AM
still wrong
 
KK.
@GrahamChiu The bot loves me too :-)
btw, such a good peice of software, and you are feeling bad only for a single, small error?
 
Reflects the point I don't have a test suite
 
KK.
@earl you from Europe? (curious since your message about RebCon in Vienna)
 
@KK. His country code is .at :)
 
KK.
what is his url?
is it earl.at?
 
5:31 AM
@RebolBot who is earl?
 
@GrahamChiu I know this about earl
 
He was also one of the main developers of a rebol based blogging tool called vanilla and his old site is at http://www.vanillasite.at
Chris' system is partially based on vanilla as well
I have a vanilla site too but not maintained either .. it's too slow running on hosted servers with CGI
@RebolBot faq for kk.
 
@rebolbot faq for kk.
 
5:38 AM
@GrahamChiu StackOverflow Chat FAQ @kk.
 
fixed :)
 
KK.
@GrahamChiu done.
I mean, fixed.
 
Neosag can't talk anyway as he lacks the points
All we can do is point him/her to the FAQ and the demands of SO chat which are out of our control
 
KK.
Yes, but don't worry. Maybe he'll earn the rep asking/answering Rebol/Red questions :-)
 
@kk. so you've blogged .. but are you going to do any programming with Rebol?
 
KK.
5:41 AM
@neosag its not very difficult.
 
that's the main way of learning .. thru doing ( pun intended )
 
KK.
@GrahamChiu Not really sure. I am not a full-time programmer. No need for working on some projects.
fork said he would like a lolcode interpreter written in Rebol.
So I might start with it.
 
@hostilefork predicts a huge future for red and rebol .. so you're in the ground floor of the revolution! Experts will be in demand in a few years
 
KK.
But not sure how much time or skill it will take, and if I have both :-)
 
@KK. being modest .. you have a great work ethic and pick things up quickly
Most of being an expert is diligence
 
KK.
5:44 AM
@GrahamChiu No. Not modest. I have serious self discipline issues, especially with food and lazy-ness. And skill, I have seen way, way, better people. But thanks for the motivation :-)
 
@KK. is that why your blog implores people to come and smack you in the head? lol
 
KK.
@GrahamChiu No, it was just me having some risk-free fun :-)
I mean, nobody is gonna come here just to take revenge for a rather small mistake, if any. :-)
No issues, everyone is welcome at my home :-)
@GrahamChiu gotta go. ttyl. Good day.
 
@KK. later
 
6:23 AM
So I've read through most of the Series Documentation and learned about the abstract nature of iteration in Rebol and what constitutes a series. It's easier to understand than I thought...then again, I don't have to worry about unlearning PHP or something, since I am a COMPLETE programming n00b, starting with Rebol.
 
Hi Meghan, are you taking over the night shift from Brian?
It's true, he needs more sleep.
 
@mmcghan Gotta start somewhere
 
@Adrian It's Meredith...I get the Meghan thing all the time, though. :) We are both awake and hard at work!
 
@mmcghan at least he hasn't got a bottle in his hand then!
 
@GrahamChiu Yes, this seems to be a good language to start with. Not sure why people were so resistant to it at first. It's pretty intuitive.
 
6:35 AM
@rebolbot tutorial for mmcghan
 
@GrahamChiu Introduction to Rebol @mmcghan
 
Sorry about that - I was reading some of your stuff the other night when Brian pointed me to your work and somehow my brain fused your first and last names together.
 
@GrahamChiu Thanks, I'll check it out right now.
@Adrian It's okay, everyone does that.
 
@mmcghan I too have read some of your work online :)
 
@mmcghan I think that DO dialect code tends to be easy to read if someone explains it to you, and you can say "oh I see how it works". But it's easier to read than it is to debug when it's doing something weird. The lack of parenthetical callouts for the arity of functions is a major stumbling block. This is the reason I'd like to see the "Rebol is the DO dialect" notion get squished sooner rather than later.
 
6:37 AM
In a lot of ways, it is better to start with the largely functional Rebol2 .. for the quick examples of reading pages, sending email, parsing web pages etc
 
@HostileFork, does Meredith know what arity means? Maybe you should re-word that...
 
@Adrian I do! It refers to the number of arguments in a series.
 
that's an issue with any language which does not delimit the arguments
 
@Adrian However, I had not heard of it til yesterday.
 
it's what makes rebol code hard to read ...
 
6:40 AM
@mmcghan "Arguments in a series" isn't quite the right phrasing... it's the number of arguments to a function, and true... the function calls are expressed as symbols in a block. But it's best to say "the number of arguments that a certain function will consume out of the ensuing portion of the series" or something more specific.
@RebolBot do x: [print "Hello" print "World"] do x
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> x: [print "Hello" print "World"] do x
Hello
World
 
I don't know if there is an accepted practice but sometimes I will include a few more spaces after the expected number of arguments to give the reader a hint
 
@mmcghan We would call x a "block" and it is a "series type". It obeys those tape-machine-like commands, just like strings of letters do... those strings are also a "series type"
 
@HostileFork And different series types have different arity.
 
Arity is how print implictly knew, based on its definition, that you meant [(print ("Hello")) (print ("Goodbye"))] and not something along the lines of [(print ("Hello" print "Goodbye")]. It's like the implicit structure that we build in our heads when we read sentences with spaces.
 
And again, precision is necessary when writing about these things... I said "print knew" but more accurately it's what the evaluation engine behind the DO dialect knew, by looking at print's definition. It would be kind of like saying "the yellow lemon is tart" and say that "yellow knew that it only modified lemon, and not is". It wasn't yellow that knew, it was your brain.
 
@GrahamChiu I like that idea.
 
@HostileFork Is it relatively easy to understand arity contextually or does it have to be memorized?
 
@mmcghan One gets a sense for it in Rebol as with language, with time. There's a relatively consistent design.
It helps to put your code on different lines or use spacing, or use parentheses as I do sometimes in early examples...but there are good reasons to break the parentheses habit sooner rather than later. So Graham's idea is probably better except at the absolute beginning.
 
6:54 AM
@HostileFork So the parentheses are just a convenience, not necessary?
 
@mmcghan They have meaning sometimes, such as in arithmetic precedence. e.g. (1 + 2) * 3 vs 1 + (2 * 3). But in an example like [(print "Hello") (print "Goodbye")] they are just commentary. Yet they have a "cost" in storage space and runtime, because they count against your symbol usage (as in SpaceChem). They're in the machine, they're not just comments off to the side.
@RebolBot delete
 
@RebolBot delete
 
@GrahamChiu done
 
@RebolBot do print length? [(print "Hello") (print "Goodbye")]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> print length? [(print "Hello") (print "Goodbye")]
2
 
6:59 AM
@RebolBot do print length? [print "Hello" print "Goodbye"]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> print length? [print "Hello" print "Goodbye"]
4
 
@mmcghan So although the code runs the same, and prints hello and goodbye for you, the structure of the program is actually different. There's a new level in the hierarchy, which groups things. This can be useful in certain cases, but it's a trend toward adding in "junk" that Rebol programmers like to avoid.
 
@HostileFork Looks like the tradeoff for using extra symbol space with parentheses is that there are fewer elements in the series. Is it mainly to make it easier for programmers to read? Or is there some reason fewer elements is better?
 
@mmcghan There's more elements actually.
(in net quantity). They're just split into levels now.
@RebolBot do first [(print "Hello") (print "Goodbye")]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> first [(print "Hello") (print "Goodbye")]
== (print "Hello")
 
7:02 AM
@HostileFork I thought length referred to the number of things in a series.
 
@RebolBot do first first [(print "Hello") (print "Goodbye")]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> first first [(print "Hello") (print "Goodbye")]
== print
 
Print is still there, as is "Hello", as is the other print, as is "Goodbye". But there are now "containers" that get involved in the count also. The parentheses act as containers, so they added two more elements that live at the top level...and in each container is two elements. So now you have 6 symbols total, just organized differently.
 
@HostileFork Are containers optional? What is their purpose?
 
@mmcghan Rebol has a philosophy that you can use these things as sort of building blocks and ascribe your own meaning to them in new contexts. Context is a very important thing (in general, and especially in Rebol). In my dream journal, I used parentheses to put in comments like stage direction. [weird-alien: (laughing) "Viva la Rebolution!"]
Rebol takes care of checking things like that you have a matched number of parentheses, so I don't have to worry about doing that.
But that's only applicable when the Rebol Tinkertoys have been contextualized as being in the "dream journal dialect", which is then built into HTML.
Other contexts treat them differently. The DO dialect uses it for precedence, as I mentioned.
 
7:15 AM
@HostileFork I can see why you say it is like modeling clay.
@HostileFork That philosophy appeals to me; it's creative.
 
@mmcghan Note that you do have to adapt to Rebol's rules. I couldn't say [weird alien: (laughing) "Viva la Rebolution!"]. Well technically I can, but one of the Tinkertoy-types is words ending in colons...no spaces allowed. So the only way I could get the structure I wanted was to have the hypen. But when I make the HTML, I take the hyphens out. It's a tradeoff but worth it for certain benefits.
 
7:53 AM
Which resources have you guys found most helpful in learning Rebol?
 
When Rebol first came out there were these long tomes produced by Rebol Technologies
Let me check to see if you can still download them
 
@GrahamChiu Oh, that is actually what I'm looking at right now! As far as long tomes go, they are pretty readable...not like most software documentation I've seen.
 
there are pdf versions too .. not sure where they are now
 
And now... the Fork decides it is time to go ahead and push the Red port as is and let others take a look at it...
 
I'm looking at Chapters 6 & 7 first.
 
8:02 AM
The Official Guide was a huge book. And not great at teaching Rebol. Only discusses Core (View was still some years away). Available cheap from Abebooks.com - probably worth it for EUR10 or so.
 
@HostileFork Good decision
 
Rebol for Dummies was much better.
 
@Sunanda it was a tutorial on how to build a database or something
 
Then there's the english translation of Olivier Auverlot's Rebol Programming, by Peter Wood. Well worth having. From lulu.com.
 
@Sunanda what level is it aimed at?
Meredith is completely new to programming
 
8:04 AM
@GrahamChiu That was one of the Official Guide's problems.....Too much of how he was writing a program, and too little contextual explanation of the core features.
@GrahamChiu If you can program, then Oliver/Peter's books will get you up to speed with Rebol.
 
@Sunanda and if you can't?
 
And of course, Nick Antonaccio's excellent tutorials. Available as websites or from Lulu for download. Starts right at the beginning.
 
@RebolBot keys
 
@GrahamChiu I know the following keys: About Aggregator AltJSON AltWebForm AltXML BadMoney binaries bot-source chatmod CodeBlocks Colouriser crockford Devcon droid FAQ fiendish! HaikuOS help introduction PowerMezz prot-send prot-smtp R2/Forward ReCon Red Red-lang reset revolution? Saphir Simple Snowball tutorial xmlflawed
 
@GrahamChiu If you don't know prorgramming, the Official Guide would be a bad place to start.
 
8:07 AM
@RebolBot introduction
 
@GrahamChiu Plus the OG was for Rebol 1.3 (I think). Lots of changes, even in /Core, since then.
 
I haven't read Nick's guide .. but heard good noises about it
 
Going to look at Nick's now.
 
Victor's REBOL Essentials is also a good read - and a free download. rebol.com/docs/rebol-tutorial-3109.pdf
 
8:10 AM
Nick's guide could do with a bit of type setting
 
Thanks, guys, that gives me a lot to chew on!
 
One more resource ... The six issues of the much missed Rebol Zine.... rebolforces.com/zine/rzine-1-01
 
well fuck
 
@Someguy Welcome!
 
@Sunanda only 6 issues? Thought it was more ...
 
8:16 AM
@GrahamChiu Six is all I remember. Only six remain on Allen Kamp's website. rebolforces.com/zine
 
Look forward to another Zine net month, when we will cover changes in Core 2.6, look at writing a simple IOS Reblet, and using REBOL from CGI. If you would like to contribute to the Zine, send an email to zine<at>rebolforces.com.
 
@mmcghan Got to go now - happy reading!
 
@Sunanda Thanks, see you later!
 
Fork's last couple of month's work github.com/dockimbel/Red/pull/421
 
 
4 hours later…
12:44 PM
@HostileFork I had a quick look at the state of the battlefield. :) Overall, you did a good job trying to not be too invasive, but there are a few things that I don't like at all, e.g. the dropping of simple path notation for negative values like pc/-1 (I had a long dispute with Ladislav and others on AltME about that),
some lexer Unicode tests removed because R3 can't handle them (that proves that I was right in the first place choosing R2 for implementing Red, rather than fighting with R3 limitations and bugs), and some one-liners in R2 replaced by orders of magnitude less efficient code.
For %regression-test.r: I wonder if simply converting the file to UTF-8 wouldn't work (instead of manualling doing the encoding in UTF-8 using binary! values)?
 
1:08 PM
@DocKimbel It is technically possible to do the file as UTF-8, but it has the problem I mention that R2 and R3 will see the string differently. R2 will report the length? in bytes while R3 will report the length in codepoints. This caused problems and over the process I tried different solutions for type correctness, and one of those was to have more of the system pass the information as [binary!] if any "unsafe" bytes were being used.
In retrospect there may be other ways to do it. It's been an evolution. But the current type-correctness enables those alternative approaches to be checked and understood better than if string! is being passed around all the time. So there's flexibility in making the move from here to however you want to go.
@DocKimbel There's not a lot I can do about that, as the R3 evaluator simply sees path-based indexing differently. I feel that it is a temporary compromise and my hopes are in two areas: that Rebol and Red make a consistent agreement based on logic of how these indexes should be interpreted and that Red be written against that consistent standard.
Perhaps a cleverer way of doing a code transformation should be used on these cases like indexhack [x: foo/-1] and in R2 that evaluates to just a DO of the body but in R3 it will rewrite it, or vice versa. Basically make indexhack interpret the argument however you feel Rebol and Red should agree on the indexing logic.
 
@HostileFork Can't you use a form of source preprocessing once compiler is loaded in memory to rewrite such paths in a R3 friendly way?
(the same way I do source rewritting with the Red/System loader)
Also, such kind of "just-in-time code migration" could be used by others to make run R2 sources unchanged on R3.
 
1:25 PM
@DocKimbel I assume that would be possible, you guys are better at that than I am and would be better at knowing precisely where and how to put such a tweak. I'd be in favor of it.
 
This is of course not only limited to paths, could be applied to a lot of incompatible syntax and semantics between R2 and R3.
@HostileFork It's easier to implement than you think.
 
@JonBriThomas Hi there, sorry about the 20-rep-to-chat limit...StackOverflow's rule, not ours! See our FAQ for some hints to getting those 20 points, which we can try and help with if you're interested in chat.
 
@HostileFork I will provide you with a code example.
 
@DocKimbel Okay. Well it sounds like a good solution for a class of problems, and what those problems are at the moment can be seen by what was needed in the deltas.
Regarding performance, I was going for correctness first. I am sure good Rebolers can make it better. However, on the performance point, one thing to notice is that if Red is running on R3 then that means performance tuning can be done on the C sources to adapt them so that bottlenecks can be removed. Hopefully these bottleneck removals could be done in such a way that they'd be good for any codebase, and not make R3 slower for general purposes for the sake of running Red faster.
I am skeptical of the intrinsic value of Unicode codepoints higher than U+FFFF appearing in Red/System input as UTF-8 bytes themselves in source. By defining the current spec of Red/System to match R2's idea that caret-based-hex-values are just bytes, then it seems very natural to me to say that a sequence like "^(F0)^(90)^(80)^(80)" represents U+010000. I worked on making R3 emulate the behavior with its codepoint-based approach. It seems a reasonable solution.
Again, I don't find R3 to be limited in this respect...just more correct.
A string and binary equivalence makes string much less useful as a distinct type.
 
1:58 PM
@HostileFork Well done!
 
Is it possible in R3 to change the content of a function body block once created?
 
@DocKimbel No, not in-place.
 
@earl What was the reason behind that change from R2?
 
@DocKimbel Thread-safety. (And probably "security" in general.) But I'm sure @BrianH will happily expand on that.
 
@earl Thread-safety could have handled differently than by removing that feature. I'll try to do a better job than that in Red.
 
2:13 PM
@DocKimbel Sure. In any case, it's not a "feature" I'll miss.
@DocKimbel any good ideas for a single-word name for /-1?
 
@earl That feature allowed me to live-debug and hot-patch a Cheyenne instance running on customer's server a few years ago with no interruption at all.
 
@DocKimbel I'm sure it can come in handy. I'm also sure that there's a better and more appropriate solution for whenever it appears to be handy.
 
@earl I can't think of any good one.
 
IIRC it was some security concerns, but I think that BrianH might be the only one to have any valid explanation .... the other thing is, if we belive in it :-)
 
Well, interesting changeset.
 
2:24 PM
@earl Have you looked at the way your layout dialect was changed in ELF.r? :)
 
@DocKimbel Yep :) I'm especially surprised how well ELF.r "survived" :)
 
@earl "recall"? "previous"?
 
@mmcghan Though about "prev" as well, which seems relatively appropriate. Only that "previous" is a bit long, and "prev" against the "no abbreviations" naming conventions.
@DocKimbel The dialect changes should no longer be necessary, as the SELECT bug necessitating those changes is fixed.
 
2:38 PM
@HostileFork --^
 
@DocKimbel @HostileFork SELECT fix is not merged, yet, though :)
 
The problem is that in English we don't have words for ordinal numbers in reverse.
Not sure of any language that does.
Except mathematics.
 
Overall I have the impression that the set of changes can be split up nicely into a few distinct classes (and probably on "rest" class).
 
@mmcghan We have one....penultimate :)
 
@earl Agreed, would make it much easier to process the changes.
 
2:46 PM
@Sunanda Guess we'll leave it to you to propose penultimate [a b c d e] for returning 'd in CureCode. :-)
"Severity: Critical"
 
The /-1 changes also show some interesting uses :)
 
@DocKimbel It's really my hope that Rebol/R3 and Red agree on how to do indexing. An agreement is more important than going with what I want, but I have been wanting pick series 0 to be first series for reasons of computational reality. I think some of the desire to make Rebol "natural" led to doing otherwise, but this has been a thorn in my side since the start.
I know it is a large change that R3/Backward cannot reasonably gloss over. It will break a lot of example code. But all VID code will break too. And if things like SHIFT can reverse the sign on the belief that there is a better way, I feel a major change like this can be made. It will be easier to make if we rally the community of people who have published Rebol information and get them to come up to date.
 
@HostileFork Different discussion. The above remark was that we can probably split up your changes into a few smaller pieces, makes them easier to review and we can most likely apply some of them right away.
@HostileFork I think a few of the changes are left-overs. How to best proceed with those?
Side channel? In-line comments? Can I test locally somehow and just submit a pull against your branch?
 
3:01 PM
@earl I am not prescriptive on how to proceed. I actually have some other things I'd love to work on and this has been soul-sucking, albeit educational. If I woke up tomorrow and someone else picked up this flag and ran with it I'd have no problem moving on to the WebOS port or repl.it or something actually fun that's more in my domain of abilities.
I don't think it's far from passing the test suite, and I think the other architectures will be relatively simple compared to the big picture issues tackled in the compiler code proper. But the ELF one is just a study of what needed to be done.
 
@HostileFork I won't run with it, for now (enough on my own plate). But I think there's a few "easy" things I actually could help with.
 
@earl Well I'm happy to make you and Doc collaborators on my Red repository if it makes tweaking any more expedient.
So consider that done.
As I just did it. :-)
@DocKimbel To use map!, some more changes in this spirit are necessary; I'm not of the opinion that they are bad, I find them somewhat clarifying... but this is my bias to preferring more structural intent unless there is a really good reason to do otherwise.
 
@HostileFork just a little note that 0 based indexing in various forms has been subject of much and heated debate a few times, and the ultimate outcome, IIRC, was that two sets of functions should be implemented. 0 based and 1 based. (something like pickz series 0)
I actually prefer 1 based indexing in the majority of cases, but like all of us, when math get in the way, it can be awkward, so having both is a good idea.
 
@moliad Well that's an interesting idea but of course it doesn't help with path evaluation. :-/
 
3:16 PM
@HostileFork that is the biggest part of "heated" in the discussion ;-)
 
@Sunanda Funny you should say that, I was just thinking about that word. Problem is, it's even longer than "previous!"
 
@HostileFork for my part I wish we implemented python's slice notation, which is IMHO, the only worthy feature of the language.
 
Not to imply they mean the same thing, just saying that if we're trying to avoid long words...
 
@RebolBot do x: next next [1 2 3] loop 2 [print dt [loop 10000 [y: x/-1]] print dt [loop 10000 [y: pick x -1]]]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> x: next next [1 2 3] loop 2 [print dt [loop 10000 [y: x/-1]] print dt [loop 10000 [y: pick x -1]]]
0:00:00.0057
0:00:00.012111
0:00:00.005587
0:00:00.012037
 
3:22 PM
@moliad If people are up in arms about that, then they'll be up in arms about slice... but I think it's a bit silly to base a design decision on something like this especially with Red coming online.
 
@HostileFork Map! cannot replace hash! fully, the semantics are different. I really like the navigational abilities of hash! and I use them often.
 
@DocKimbel it wasn't thread-safety, it was security. R2's browser plugin project and all previous attempts to create effective sandboxes failed because or various inherent security issues. You can still modify the code block of a function at runtime, but we made it relatively hard to get access to that code block without permission. We've made it easy to rebuild functions though.
 
@HostileFork "something like this"... please say what "this" refers to... a lot of subject hopping going on here :-)
 
@BrianH Wouldn't have it been simpler to just forbid the use of 'body option for reflect based on a sandboxing option in secure dialect? That way you keep the feature and it is secure when you need it.
 
@BrianH adding you as a GitHub collaborator for my Red repository though too, in case you see something that bothers you and you feel like fixing it. But no pressure. :-)
 
3:30 PM
@DocKimbel if you need to design your system to be hot-patchable, you can keep references to your function code blocks that can be accessed from secure code. You need to make the references after any function-builders do a copy/deep of them, but it's easily doable.
 
@moliad I mean to say that if there is a right answer to what makes elegant code, and it seems to sacrifice performance in Rebol, there's not necessarily a logical reason why it should degrade performance in Red. So being a bit more free from the classical thinking of what makes "slow Rebol" would be good. This is based on my general agreement that Red is the future of Rebol-like languages.
I myself prefer to see first foo instead of foo/1 or foo/0, so in this case I'm in agreement with @rgchris in terms of path notation being a bit "non-literate" looking. But I still want my alpha and then alpha/uppercase and alpha/latin-8/lowercase style refinements for getting charsets.
 
@DocKimbel The reflect 'body option is used by a lot of code. You can make a replacement body-of wrapper that doesn't take functions and hide references to reflect, but tracing references in function code blocks is an easy way to get access to hidden references, and it's context access that needs to be locked down the most. It's easier to have some core security practices with known and controllable workarounds than to have no security by default then try to lock things down if you can.
@DocKimbel map! can replace hash! effectively, but it requires you to rewrite some code to fit the new pattern, so it's not a drop-in replacement. There are tickets about this that explain more.
 
3:52 PM
@DocKimbel you'd be surprised how few changes we needed to make for security, and in particular which changes they are. It's pretty much just reflect taking the job of the ordinal reflectors, apply, assert, and the unfinished protect and unprotect. Yes, we had to tweak the behavior of some other things to fit with those, but it's not that hard when you attack the problem at the core. We're not done yet though, as the protect and unprotect functions themselves are too difficult.
Btw, the primary use industry-wide for hot-patching is to make malware. It's good to use in some other cases, but given its primary use you need to be careful about who has the ability to do so. R3 allows hot-patching, but it's locked down by default and can be controlled through controlling access to the code blocks.
For that matter, the lib and named module model makes it relatively easy to write replacement-style hot-patches too in most cases. Take a look at my rebol-patches collection for examples and an explanation of how. Replacement-style hot-patching is thread-safe too.
Well, at least more thread-safe. We're working on that issue too.
 
4:25 PM
@HostileFork Here is a quick'n dirty gist showing how an R2 "live migration" tool could be achieved. This one only rewrites integer indexes in paths to be compatible with R3.
 
@DocKimbel @BrianH thoughts? --^
 
4:47 PM
@BrianH how do I have a sequence of same values in a map? we can't. hash! isn't a key pair, its an indexed list of arbitrary values.
 
@moliad Lua has showed us that key-value pairs can be equivalent to indexed arrays. Just use integers as the keys.
I am not saying that we shouldn't have a hash type, I'm just saying that the "there are things that you can do with hash that you can't do with map" argument isn't correct, unless you add "...without changing our code".
 
I don't use "keys" with hash! ... that's the point!
 
@moliad yes you do, two of them, the index and position.
 
the source data isn't [ 1 "d" 2 "f" 3 "4"] its ["d" "f" "4"] at any point in time, I can edit the order of the data. The point of the hash! type is that you don't have to play with manual indexing.
 
If you want hash! in R3 go voice your support here: issue.cc/r3/1494 but be prepared to argue against Ladislav. I have no stake in this argument, since map! is better for me for everything that I had to use hash! for before (except for one trick that also required list!).
I am not the one you have to argue against.
 
4:59 PM
@BrianH seems like he converted you ;-)
 
@BrianH The point in time when I stopped following R3 progress is when Carl dropped hash! and list! support.
 
I already knew that map! was better for everything that I had to do, he just proved that it was better in every possible way except for the interaction model.
Actually, I'm OK with him dropping list!, since linked lists have proven to be particularly cache-hostile in the last decade (who saw that coming?).
 
@BrianH So Ladislav is the new leader in charge of R3?
It is quite unclear how decisions about R3 features are made currently...
 
@DocKimbel nope, but he's the gauntlet that potentially bad designs have to go through. He's hard to convince (for various reasons I won't go into here) but once you've done so the design tends to be better for it. I'm usually on the opposite side of this: his proposals have to convince me, in lieu of Carl because he doesn't have the patience. Anything that we can agree on is usually a good idea. It's built on consensus, and anyone can join in.
@DocKimbel I'm not saying that the interaction model is anything to be sneezed at. Even though a combination of a map! and a block! is strictly equal to hash!, hash! can in some cases be easier to use and even faster sometimes. Plus, it's backwards compatible. So I'm not opposed to hash! being added back even if I don't need it myself.
 
@BrianH "It's built on consensus, and anyone can join in." Can any new feature be added or changed without the agreement of Ladislav?
 
5:14 PM
@DocKimbel Sure, we've done that a lot of times. Some people just give up or change their minds, some don't argue. We're more likely to check with Ladislav on numeric issues because he's more familiar with the relevant problems, but there is no one final arbiter except for Carl, on those occasions where a tie breaker is needed. Consensus is key though. For instance, there are arguments that are on hold waiting for your input.
And other arguments that are not even worth starting until someone like @moliad can participate.
@HostileFork sorry, not today, I have to go to work.
The only reason Ladislav's opinion matters in these arguments is because he makes good arguments for those opinions. Same as me, same as @HostileFork (whose opinions are usually the opposite of Ladislav's), same as you. The consensus design is based around resolving these arguments to form a cohesive whole.
Carl didn't get into the deep arguments (the patience for that is an unusual trait), but he takes as much to convince as Ladislav and he's much better than us when it comes to simplicity arguments. Plus, he's the tie breaker, so simplicity wins. I usually argue his point of view on his behalf when he's not doing so.
"Some people just give up or change their minds, some don't argue." - By "Some people" I meant Ladislav in that case, but it could be anyone who gets involved. There's nothing special about Ladislav beyond the stuff that is special about Ladislav personally, like his CS expertise and logical mind. Same goes for anyone with expertise and the ability to argue their point (or to get someone whose expertise is arguing points to do so on their behalf).
 
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