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6:01 AM
@HostileFork is this some type of language purity thing that you don't want disk IO functions in the base language?
 
If you do an r2-compatibility module that is supposed to make R3 act like R2, then if your target is regular R2 instead of /Base, you're going to have to include a lot of stuff. Stuff we, frankly, don't want in R3 at all. But if R2 compatibility is what you need to run your scripts, then that is what you have to include.
If you want R3, you probably don't want most of that stuff, until you need it. When you need it, you can import it by the module. Until you import it, as far as you're concerned it doesn't exist at all. That is why we made the module system.
 
@GrahamChiu I just like literate comprehensible written-language code. Shorthand is fine if you're trying to win a competition, but I think change-directory is better than cd.
I guess I see a lot of the "optimization" done with things like "cd" as what I've called "penny-wise, pound foolish"... programmers measuring the cost of software only on their most basic non-metric ideas about their time. They don't realize that making software look cryptic and ugly costs them more time in the long run because of the alienated "wizard class" of "in-the-know" people...losing all kinds of potential recruits.
 
@HostileFork isn't cd an alias for change-dir ?
 
@HostileFork we have change-dir. It's a different, native, function, meant for using in Rebol code. It's not that suitable for using interactively. It wouldn't go in that shell module, whatever we call that.
 
@GrahamChiu You're missing my point... the question is about what people use.
Bring more people into the fold, and all your so-called "optimizations" of your "precious" time will be eclipsed because you will have strength in numbers.
Make the design beautiful, clear, elegant, consistent. Cut the cruft. Embrace the people who you don't know can double, triple, or exponentially make your work zoom off like the singularity.
Again: pennywise, pound foolish.
"Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it... look what it's done so far..."
 
6:09 AM
@HostileFork You are really misestimating how popular minimalism is in a language. It's really popular with some people, but an absolute deal-killer for others. If you want to appeal to both kinds of people, you need to make stuff available, even if it's not there by default. And to appeal with the minimalists like you, it needs to be not there by default. So, modules.
 
@BrianH I'm not asking for minimalism, I'm asking for a richer more kick ass shell dialect that blows the doors off of what exists instead of a few smoke and mirrors.
 
@HostileFork which will still have to be not loaded by default. If you still think we are keeping stuff like cd and q loaded by default, you have been completely ignoring what we've been saying for many years now.
 
@BrianH Ducks, Brian.
It's weird to write one's own name when addressing other people.
 
@HostileFork should use Brain
 
@GrahamChiu The DMV seems to want to (for me).
 
6:14 AM
I typed change-dir, list-dir etc for years in R2 ... no way do I want to go back to that. And yes, I should have done something with my user.r
 
No one else makes that mistake, just when I go to buy large vehicles.
 
@HostileFork We haven't gotten to the clean-down stage of development yet. Remember, development was put on hold for a long time. Just because it's there, don't assume it's going to be there. The policy is that nothing is sacred, not even stuff Carl wrote, and he set the policy. You're judging something as a duck when it's not even out of the egg yet.
 
never had the need to type 'q though!
 
@GrahamChiu I do it every day many times. I mostly use Rebol interactively as a shell.
 
@BrianH No, I'm all ready to go for pick [a b c] 2 to be c, I'm ready to look at it top to bottom. There just aren't enough Rebol 3 codebases out there to make it worth a bad design mistake...
I'm just talking about a perspective, I rant because I like to rant.
 
6:17 AM
@HostileFork you are judging the current situation as being a design mistake, when we haven't even started that design conversation yet. It's not a mistake, it's not even started yet. As I keep saying, "what part of alpha don't you understand?"
 
But really, Rebol is (currently, as my answer pointed out) perceived as the DO dialect of Rebol, and this is because that's how it's being taught. We need to fix it up.
Presentation, the whole thing. No, believe me, I understand alpha. I've read the code. :-)
It's going to take time, documentation, tests, real world stuff.
 
>> pick "+-" true
== #"+"

>> pick "+-" false
== #"-"
 
But there's lots of coolness even today, you can't let not being perfect be an excuse for not doing outreach.
 
if you change pick 1 to be pick 0, you're going to have to change the above
 
Who or what, outside of abstract mathematical shapes or groups, is "perfect"?
@GrahamChiu I don't care too much for this pick boolean thing, I hadn't seen it until recently.
 
6:20 AM
@HostileFork Good. Then you can at least not be a jerk and completely ignore us when we say that you are not working with a final product, or even a final design? Because we've been spending most of the time since the open sourcing just catching up with 2 years of backlog. We haven't even begun those discussions yet. And why don't you think your opinion matters in that discussion when we have it?
 
@GrahamChiu But pick can, have a special behavior for boolean, it can be special cased.
@BrianH I'm not ignoring you. Whether I'm a jerk or not is a different question entirely. :-) I'm just saying I would like the default Rebol interpreter, the one people commonly download and is the entry point, to say--in the REPL--when you type "ls"... "dunno what you mean". That's all we're talking about. I also don't want append [x y z] q to silently exit the interpreter.
 
@HostileFork so why are you ignoring me for the last hour saying that this is the plan?
@HostileFork The pick function does have special behavior for boolean, it is defined to match the order used for either, so pick can be used to replace either in some cases. It doesn't matter what pick integer does.
 
@BrianH I missed the part where you said that you would plan to point people to a download link for the interpreter that doesn't do those things.
You seemed to keep going into implementation details without saying "yeah, we're going to axe that crap for the real programmers"
 
@Adrian Should be white unless you press 'D'. Then it should be dark until you press 'L'. A cookie should save the last picked one.
 
@HostileFork The real R3 is going to be more like R2's SDK than like R2. And of course you'll be able to download it. Don't be silly.
 
6:27 AM
@BrianH Got an example?
 
@earl Yes, at some point.
 
Haha! WOW! Open source might work after all! CHECK THIS OUT
Google bought Freebase, and deprecated an API in one of my projects, that's pull request numero uno from a guy who fixed it to the updated API. :-)
No clue who that is. :-)
 
@GrahamChiu either condition ['a] ['b] changed to pick [a b] condition. That's a demo, there are a lot of real examples in the mezzanine code. That is the whole reason we have pick boolean at all. Remember, booleans don't have a natural order, they're distinct values, and only C programmers think they're integers.
 
@Adrian Will take a look when I get a chance—should be doable. Need to reorganise some of this feed code though, it's not optimal as is.
 
I don't know why Carl isn't all thrilled about us going through and fixing bugs, I'd be going "free labor and enthusiasm, wow, I couldn't raise money to do this before and now they're like little ants running around the colony and fixing stuff...for free."
Guess we just look at the world differently.
 
6:32 AM
Warning: this can be undone if not what you want.
 
@HostileFork how do you know he isn't thrilled? All we know is that he wasn't thrilled with the idea before, not whether he isn't warming to it now.
 
@rgchris sems to already pick up feeds from programmers
 
@BrianH I guess I'm sort of taking his silence as an implicit judgment of lack of priority, hence lack of enthusiasm. Perhaps unfair.
He hasn't explicitly made a statement like "I'm displeased."
 
@Adrian I guess we'll find out when someone answers a question.
 
6:33 AM
well, it picked up the question
 
@HostileFork he has a day job, a good one, and this is not it. Why do you think he has time to follow us?
 
@Adrian Yes, I'd assumed someone had added the extra feed—guess not :)
 
@BrianH so, it was chosen to follow the order of either. Pity it isn't the other way round
 
@BrianH Everyone tabs around in the browser, reads hackernews, you've gotta have at least a few spare minutes. Unless he's doing it as a self-imposed "don't" (the way I don't use Facebook, etc.)
Like he doesn't want to get sucked back into it, so he deliberately says "no" and blocks himself from it.
 
@BrianH Yes, I know booleans are not integers, but some of us are used to using 0 as false
 
6:36 AM
I did that when I left Microsoft, I erased all the copies I had of the project. "I don't work there any more, I don't own the patents, I cannot continue with this in my basement... I need to re-figure out my life in a way that lets it go."
 
@GrahamChiu not really. Replacing either is the main use for pick boolean.
 
Maybe he's got something similar going on.
 
@GrahamChiu bad boy! Don't put your C'isms into Rebol! 0 is truthy in Rebol. :)
 
Zero not being false in Rebol is one of the things I don't disagree with.
That's a good idea.
 
@BrianH forthisms
 
6:39 AM
I proposed that in integer-to-boolean conversions, primes be true and non-primes be false. :-)
 
@GrahamChiu OK, that's more fair, but still, stop it. :)
 
Seems more elegant to me.
 
@HostileFork working code, please...
 
@rgchris "Should array indices start at 0 or 1? My compromise of 0.5 was rejected without, I thought, proper consideration." — Stan Kelly-Bootle
 
posted on February 20, 2013 by Ladislav

[Comment by @Ladislav] In the core-tests suite.

posted on February 20, 2013 by Graham

[Bug by @Graham] read/lines on clipboard:// does not return a block of strings

posted on February 20, 2013 by abolka

[Comment by @abolka] Right, it's THRU that fails here. The tests can be as simple as: >> parse "abcd" [thru "cd"] == false ;; Expected: true

posted on February 20, 2013 by BrianH

[Comment by @BrianH] Good catch, ticket adjusted accordingly.

posted on February 20, 2013 by abolka

[Comment by @abolka] In the core-tests suite.

 
6:43 AM
@HostileFork Oh, since we have unicode—why not fraction! datatypes??? load "½ ¼ ¾ ⅔"
Finally! The feed dump!!!
 
@rgchris Hey, how'd you get it to "onebox"??
 
pick [a b c] ½
 
Is that just the default way it treats RSS?
 
Yes.
 
Oh. Hm, so you can't put an icon or anything on there?
 
6:44 AM
@HostileFork it's a really good job. Though even if it wasn't, he doesn't seem the type to do much futzing around on the internet. He owns a winery, that shows his priorities for computers outside of real work (including personal work). Why would he waste time on HN? No offence to HN, but why would Carl go there?
 
@HostileFork I tried, didn't work.
 
@BrianH Oh, because the post-singularity AIs don't care about wine or Roku boxes.
They probably care more about Roku boxes than wine, but I care more about wine than Roku boxes. But either way, I'd think he'd not neglect his creation.
If he's going to give up he owes us a "Here's where I'm at" post.
It's a free world, sort of, but I think there is such a thing as honoring those you inspire, taking ambiguity out of the relationship, etc.
 
@rgchris are those individual characters, or combining codepoints? Because we can define those characters as words that have assigned the corresponding values if you like. It would make a good joke module :)
 
And if he has other ideas for how he wants to relate to the project, he should write 'em up. This is a bunch of people and a lot of time. Of anyone, I'd think you would back me up on this.
 
6:56 AM
@HostileFork Yes, but I'm not going to criticize someone for not doing that yet. I'm not going to consider the project abandoned, when so far everything has indicated that he has entrusted it to the community. If he was abandoning it, he wouldn't have open sourced it, he would have just dropped it. Now it's obvious that he isn't a regular active part of the community, he's intermittent. He doesn't need to announce that.
 
@BrianH Well it would've helped, things will proceed anyway.
I wonder how much my avatar's angry eyebrows make me look meaner than I am for real. :-)
@pekr was pretty nice the other day too.
@rgchris "Vulgar fractions". Good band name.
 
I read a great statement on a social network recently, that said that a good friend doesn't complain if their other friends are busy and can't hang out. Instead, they understand that their friend is busy and are patient. When they're not busy, you can hang out then, no worries. Good philosophy.
 
@BrianH But if you need help, shouldn't 911 bring it?
 
Depends on the neighborhood. Sometimes you'll have better luck helping yourself, or calling your friends.
Isn't that the whole point to open source?
 
@BrianH I got mugged and beaten and ran in front of traffic to get away by drawing attention to myself. They didn't get my wallet. I laid there watching the blood pour down past my eyes, like in those James bond openings... (your head bleeds a lot, @GrahamChiu can probably explain this, it's creepy but I guess it's not as life threatening as people make it out to be, small cuts bleed a lot but you'll live.)
I was in shock though, and I just kind of laid there and thought. The people who found me didn't see the muggers, they'd taken off... I was just laying there bleeding, I dunno what I got hit with. Fists or brass knuckles or something, don't recall. Anyway, they were puzzled why this bleeding guy is in the middle of the road and called 911
I reflected on life, death, matters of that nature. I was ignoring the random people I didn't know stopping by to say "hmm, I think he can hear us..?!" and yeah I guess I sort of could but I didn't want to talk to them. Wasn't where my mind was at.
When I realized basically that head trauma and lots of head blood did not imply death, and realized I was going to survive, I was a bit annoyed. But I got up, and walked off without a word continuing toward home.
 
7:08 AM
Good, glad that worked. Being alive is underrated :)
 
But then the ambulance caught up with me, the guys pulled up to me and asked "hey, what happened?"
 
@HostileFork No PTSD?
 
I told them about it, they gave me a white towel, I put it to my head and the blood was all over it. They asked me if I wanted a ride to the hospital.
I said "no thanks, people already tried to mug me once tonight."
They said "you can keep the towel" and drove off.
True story.
 
@HostileFork thought you were a smart ass
 
@GrahamChiu I am smart. They are criminals.
2
 
7:14 AM
What I'd like to see here is an automatic extraction of urls which are listed here ... in a side panel
 
@GrahamChiu No API for chat yet, you have to scrape. :-( I think if people were more proactive about starring we'd be better off, you can get a feed of the starred posts.
So @pekr, how's it going?
My bloody mugging story give you a bit more sympathy for the evil fork? :-)
(It wasn't that big a deal, I got better, couple of scars, never had to see a doctor about it.)
(They didn't get my wallet or anything due to drawing attention to myself by running into traffic, which actually probably would have been more of a hassle to get all my credit cards and drivers license and money straightened out.)
I made the right choice running out into traffic. :-)
Sidewalk was dark, it's a reasonable choice.
 
7:29 AM
 
@HostileFork If you'd been run over, we wouldn't have heard this story :)
 
@rgchris I wonder if you're building the beginnings of something that could compete with data.stackexchange.com ...
 
Just poking around, I have enough to do for now...
 
@GrahamChiu Obviously. You know the anthropic principle
 
Events (link doesn't work in and of itself, but that's where the messages come from)
 
7:34 AM
If you meet someone who has survived 20 car crashes, that is notable. If you yourself have survived 20 car crashes, that's not really very impressive.
 
@HostileFork Yes, explains the existence of the universe
 
KK.
7:54 AM
@HostileFork Why did you say "no thanks, people already tried to mug me once tonight." to the ambulance guys?
 
@KK. Because if you want to go to the hospital and call a taxi, they will charge you some number of dollars per mile... it's kinda pricey compared to driving your car, but there's a formula, a trip to the hospital might cost about $30 if you're not close.
@KK. Accepting a ride from an "ambulance" (supposed to help you, eh?) well technically they're trained for things a cab driver can't do, they have some gear in the van, but we're really talking about more than $1,000 if you accept their offer to get in. So I was saying that would be a second attempted mugging, get it?
If you can stand up and get in a cab, don't get in an ambulance.
 
In NZ, ambulances are free, or, you make a donation
and emergency care is free
well, funded by taxation
 
@GrahamChiu Yeah, I live in a terrible country, thanks for the reminder.
 
KK.
@HostileFork If I am lucky enough to be visiting Austin and unlucky enough to be mugged, I will remember :-)
@HostileFork Also, you did the right thing running into traffic, because you surprised them, and an element of surprise was supposed to be their usp.
 
Nevertheless the best medical care is available in the USA
 
KK.
7:59 AM
Presence of mind in a mind-boggling situation :-)
 
just costs you a lot
here care is rationed ...
 
@KK. I always wonder, when the people point the gun at victims and say "get in the car" or whatever, why they would ever consider doing that.
 
Under Obamacare everyone has to have insurance .. I think
 
You're not going to be in a more powerful situation, you're letting what little power you have that remains erode...
It's like not negotiating with terrorists you simply can't do it.... doesn't work!
 
KK.
@HostileFork I wonder about something similar in movies, when a guy with a gun rides shotgun and makes the driver drive where he wants.
 
8:03 AM
@KK. If someone says "give me your wallet" and I have at least the moment to pull it out and throw my wallet as far as I can, I'm going to do it, in ever scenario like that I've reflexively done just exactly that. I guess my logic is more than my fear?
Maybe I'm weird, but I think I make sense.
 
KK.
@HostileFork Both. (with no intention of annoying you or anyone) You are weird, and you make sense.
 
If someone points a gun at me then I don't trust them for any contract, our contract-making potential is kind of over.
So I'm going to assume no contract and act accordingly
 
KK.
@HostileFork Do you play some sport? You would make a very good player with that kind of decision making.
 
A martial arts friend told me this, he'd gone through a lot of training, and he said: "Look, it doesn't matter what you do... it's your choice, it's your values when a situation comes up. But you should know what you do. Because your attackers had more time to think...they premeditated the event they brought on you in a moment. Let your pre-thinking make sure you don't have a reaction you would regret later in hindsight." (paraphrase)
@KK. I play with computers, that's my sport. Sometimes I draw. :-)
 
@HostileFork a lot of people act irrationally faced with a gun etc
 
KK.
8:09 AM
@GrahamChiu @HostileFork Graham means almost all people.
 
@GrahamChiu When it comes to that, I know the situation has jumped the shark, random is as good as anything.
We don't need guns. We should agree to get rid of them.
No more.
And stop building nuclear weapons. I'm not sure what kind of meta-weapon is needed for people to stop making this B.S.
If you want to kill someone, use a knife and go through the whole long ordeal. That should be required to kill someone. Not willing to do it? You don't get to kill 'em.
No "point and click" murder.
I like automation, but this is where I draw the line.
 
Cars kill more than any hand gun killings per year
 
@GrahamChiu Well I don't think humans should drive cars either, so that's not inconsistent with my philosophy.
 
@HostileFork that's because you want robotic/AI driven vehicles
 
8:15 AM
cars are computers these days
 
KK.
@GrahamChiu In India, 100k people die in road accidents every year.
 
@GrahamChiu --^
@KK. ??
That's insane.
Okay, no more humans driving cars.
I'm sick of it.
 
Good morning, gentlement.
Not very rebolish/reddish talks, this morning, hm?
 
KK.
@pierre Hello. Lunch time here in India :-)
 
8:21 AM
@pierre Rebol is about the future, and fixing technological mistakes, and doing a retrospective rebuild. I hardly think that 1,230,000 deaths PER YEAR WORLDWIDE by auto accidents is a "tangent".
@itamarb Hello, and welcome... what's up?
 
Just got back from driving kids to school, in France. Yes, with a car. Yes, this kind of funny 1-ton metal vehicle which transports a few kilos of human beings, using petrol.
 
@HostileFork thinks the deaths are caused by autonomous AIs infecting our GPs
 
@KK. Bon appétit!
Time is also a major death cause. Age comes with time. Maybe, at some point, should we abolish time?
 
@GrahamChiu Well I think it's possible, just suggesting we not accept things we can't crack open.
 
Hm. Sorry...
 
8:24 AM
@pierre I shifted house so that I could walk the kids to school
 
"The proof is in the pudding". This is why I love reading open source and finding the way it works and going "yeah, that just got fixed, wow, how estoeric...."
 
KK.
@pierre You just taught me a non-rebolish thing. :-) :-)
 
@HostileFork I loved my Mom's 2CV car: I could take everything out, open up, understand, etc.
 
@pierre Did you read my essay where I talked about the Skippack Car? That classic car show was pretty awesome, nice to go with a smart programmer who was a car tinkerer who could kind of lay it all out for me.
 
@KK. in other words: enjoy your lunch!
 
8:26 AM
He could do powder coating in his garage, he was restoring a Corvair....
He'd sandblast parts in a plexiglass box where he had these weird glove arm things he could use to keep him and the parts separate, crazypants.
Rebuilt a Corvair. Who knows why, but he did. Not parts you can buy from distributors anymore.
@pierre But people tend to look at me a bit weird for what I do, I guess I might be even weirder and just not know it. :-)
 
@HostileFork I think we're all a bit weird ... hopefully in a good way
 
@GrahamChiu Name another person who uses Rebol AND has an MD...
Time's up.
 
sqlab
 
Okay, name another one.
 
and there's another I know ...
But the last i heard he hiked off to Scott Base
 
8:32 AM
@HostileFork I'm reading it. I like the statement "such as by giving variables short (but unclear) names" => in mathematics, we always use very short names for variables: x, y, µ, α, β, etc. It sure helps a lot... As long as you define a variable properly, with a clear comment, I don't have a problem with short variable names.
 
@pierre Well I would write all these things differently today, that was back when I'd just arrived on the scene, like @KK.
 
oh yeah ... Scott Jones
 
@pierre I think I did a decent job of this answer, reposting, it would be nice for more answers... bear in mind that each time there's a new answer or activity, it bumps the question back to "active"
1
Q: Is Rebol a functional language?

Benjamin GruenbaumI ran into Rebol and I was wondering about it. I ran into the following script from here: use [feed questions answers][ feed: load-xml/dom http://stackoverflow.com/feeds/tag/rebol questions: map-each entry feed/get-by-tag <entry> [ find/match entry/get <id> "http://...

 
@GrahamChiu Hm. Definitely. I know many-many weird people in the GNU/Linux and Free Software communities. Rebol and Red communities are also a bunch of, I would say, original, people.
@HostileFork What is an MD?
 
@pierre Hm, not used in France? Medical Doctor. It's a degree. Like PhD or whatever, except means you are licensed to practice medicine.
 
8:37 AM
MD is mainly a USA thing.
 
@HostileFork ok, got it. We just say "Docteur" here. A PhD is never mentioned, PhD's are just normal human beings.
 
@GrahamChiu dumb question, I'm wondering if my issues are medical or psychiatric, can an MD prescribe anti-anxiety or is that only specifically "psychiatrist"?
 
Any physician can prescribe anxiolytics .. a psychiatrist specialises in this area that's all
 
@GrahamChiu Ok. It's just that head pressure is weird, I'm not sure who to go to.
All these internet horror stories of people with chronic problems they never solve. :-/
It's hard to tell with something abstract like "pressure in your head" if it's "medical medical", or "psych medical", I'm not sure where to start, but I will start with "medical medical".
Just like programming, bugs are tricky.
 
 
1 hour later…
10:04 AM
@HostileFork Crud, submitted an answer, only meant to submit a comment. Too bad...
 
 
2 hours later…
KK.
12:13 PM
@rgchris I think you should be able to comment on P.SE.
After you cross 200 points at any one of the SE sites, you get 101 points automatically in any other sites that you join.
Anyways, I +1'ed it :-)
@rgchris Just saw that you've removed the answer and commented in its place.
 
12:28 PM
0
A: What's the fastest/most efficient way to count lines in Rebol?

endo64Why no one came with the simplest solution I wonder :) t: "abc^/de^/f^/ghi" i: 0 until [i: i + 1 not t: find/tail t newline] i == 4 Not sure about the performance but I think it's quite fast, as UNTIL and FIND are natives. WHILE could be used as well. i: 1 while [t: find/tail t newline] [i: i...

posted on February 21, 2013 by Ladislav

[Comment by @Ladislav] In the core-tests suite.

posted on February 21, 2013 by Ladislav

[Comment by @Ladislav] In the core-tests suite.

 
 
2 hours later…
2:58 PM
@rgchris The improved CC feed is very nice, thanks a lot!
 
earl has made a change to the feeds posted into this room
earl has stopped a feed from being posted into this room
 
3:31 PM
@rgchris Is there any CureCode we might read about here besides R3? :-) How about R3:CureCode: => just CureCode:
 
4:23 PM
@SomeKittens hey, how goes? Food for thought:
2
Q: Is Rebol a functional programming language?

Benjamin GruenbaumI ran into Rebol and I was wondering about it. I ran into the following script from here: use [feed questions answers][ feed: load-xml/dom http://stackoverflow.com/feeds/tag/rebol questions: map-each entry feed/get-by-tag <entry> [ find/match entry/get <id> "http://...

 
Going pretty good. Haven't had much time to code, spend the past two days writing up plans and our YC app
 
@SomeKittens YC?
 
YCombinator, the startup accelerator
 
@SomeKittens Oh, yes. Do you know Michael Hartl by chance? (railstutorial.org) He was there.
 
Not offhand, you've mentioned him before. Do you know him?
 
4:27 PM
Yes, he's just the only person I know who's been involved with YCombinator.
Which is a weird word and that's why I know what it is. :-)
 
haha, the world is weird and that's wonderful
I was wondering if you could put me in contact with him, a good word from a YC alum would really help our application
 
Do you have a link to your app that is shareable?
I mean, I dunno what he could do or say...other than if it was really awesome he might tweet about it, but I'm not any expert in what other people think is awesome.
 
The website, application, or just the sales pitch?
A YC alum can vouch for a current applicant
 
@SomeKittens Well whatever, I'm actually supposed to be asleep but I'll look at your thing... at least.
This YCombinator inner circle voucher thing is news to me.
 
This is the best explanation of what we're doing:
> What we’re building is like a hotel booking agency for college courses. We want to help colleges fill seats that would otherwise be empty with students from outside and students to find accredited courses on their timeframe and budget. There’s a lot of junk in the way of students (additional applications, transcript hassles) which we’re trying to fix through a centralized system. We’re also working on creating a framework for professors and other experts to develop high-end classes and syndicate them out to colleges.
Also just realized you're from Austin, my dad went to grad school there
 
4:35 PM
@SomeKittens Not really "from" here, but my dad did medical research at UT when I was a kid... so when I moved here two years ago and everyone is like "oh you Los Angeles people moving here..." I say "Oh yeah? I went to kindergarten here. I was here in 1978, so who do you think was here first?" 9 times out of 10 it was me. :-)
 
heh, reminds me of this
 
@SomeKittens Heh. Because people say "Rebol is like the Matrix, you take the red pill and can't go back" I often invoke the maybe you just suck at explaining things xkcd a lot. :-)
@SomeKittens Ok... so... greasing the wheels a bit of the education market, connecting "buyers" and "sellers". But I don't know if that's a pitch exactly. Remember, Alien (the movie) when it was shopped around Hollywood was pitched as "Jaws. In space".
 
My first Rebol code question: The one liners page lists print read http://www.rebol.com as "Prints to the console the HTML source for a web page." but when I try it, I get hex. What am I doing wrong?
@HostileFork Paul Graham says that using the term "X for Y" is good if it helps explain what you're building
 
@SomeKittens You're using a Rebol 3 interpreter and you will find tons of outdated stuff that hasn't been updated. :-/ We can tell you how to fix that sort of issue, but it's just the beginning of a lot of little pain-in-the-butt things you'll hit if you go with Rebol 3.
Try to string! read http://www.rebol.com
 
@HostileFork that worked
 
4:49 PM
@SomeKittens What you were getting before, that "hex" was the native binary type in Rebol. It's a series type, like other series, except it's raw binary data. You can do all the same stuff with it... parse, append, etc. If you say length? #{DECAFBAD} you will get 4. Etc.
It's measured in bytes. But strings are Unicode, series of code points. They can be turned from and to binary data as UTF-8.
 
hmm, nice
@HostileFork What I posted was the answer to the question "What are you going to make?" so it's not a sales pitch exactly. The pitch we've got is out of date. Suggestions would be welcome
 
@SomeKittens Not just nice, amazingly nice... parse really will blow your mind when applied to these things because the machinery "just works" on all series types. Did I show you why there's no substring operation?
All applies to binary!, etc. etc.
 
I really like it
 
@SomeKittens It really freaks some people out though to not have all those parentheses and commas and stuff. Yet here I just wrote two sentences with just words and spaces and a period. Our brains were made to do this.
Rebol puts the "language" into "programming language".
 
I'm still not sold on the syntax but that may be my C-style brain talking. 4/5 of the languages I've used had all those funny brackets.
 
4:57 PM
I put parentheses in and the return and all the little training wheels stuff because I'm trying to explain it, but those are really just artifacts.
But what you find is there are many cooler purposes for parentheses. :-)
 
find and find/tail? It really is that easy?!?
 
@SomeKittens Yup, and a non-none series position is boolean truth. if find ["foo" 1 cat] "foo" [print "foo was in there..."]
I'm telling you, this thing has been designed for decades, almost no stone left unturned. You can thank @BrianH for a bunch of that.
And now Apache 2 license. So if you want a YCombinator startup that builds a proprietary closed source something-with-Rebol, well, it's an option. But don't. Closed source sucks.
 
Nice. I've got to pack up (visiting my parents) but thanks for the help. I'll be back!
 
@SomeKittens Sure thing, ttyl
 
And thanks for passing on the YC thing to Michael.
 
5:02 PM
@SomeKittens Well I'll need something a bit more concrete before I bug him :-)
"Someone named SomeKittens on StackOverflow wrote this paragraph, go read it" is a little hard to pass on. :-)
 
Yeah. I'd love to talk more but I've got to run. Would be nice to hear the opinion of a cranky industry vet
 
@SomeKittens Incentive to come back and learn more Rebol!
 
Yep, turns out my fiancee already packed (isn't she wonderful) so I've got a few more minutes
The one-liners are crazy
> remove-each tag page: load/markup rebol.com [tag? tag] write %page.txt page
Could have used that one earlier, had to do a lot of page parsing with PHP (ugh)
Is there any data on Rebol LOC compared to other languages?
 
@SomeKittens It's been too experimental and fringe to get a whole lot of formal study, the design has been incubating... and delayed...
But where you really get bang for your buck is in the Domain Specific Languages, and parse is going to be what hooks you.
The do dialect (default dialect that does artithmetic and basic eval) is frequently confused as being "Rebol". But it's just a piece of the puzzle.
Look for instance at that question about counting newlines:
6
Q: What's the fastest/most efficient way to count lines in Rebol?

rgchrisGiven a string string, what is the fastest/most-efficient way to count lines therein? Will accept best answers for any flavour of Rebol. I've been working under the assumption that the parse [some [thru]] combination was the fastest way to traverse a string, but then I don't know that for certain...

i: 1
parse text [any [thru newline (++ i)]]
print i
The weird thing is that's actually fast.
Parse is optimized C inside the interpreter, it's not higher-order ("mezzanine") Rebol library code like your own dialects would be.
And when you're making your dialects and leaning on DO and PARSE you can move mountains.
 
slight correction -call me a pedant...
`remove-each tag page: load/type rebol.com 'markup [tag? tag] write %page.txt page`
 
5:16 PM
@Adrian Yeah, looks like all the examples on that page are for REBOL 2
I'm now annoyed, unsure what tutorial I should do, don't want to be stuck with the old version
 
Go to rebol.net and you'll find a good amount of Rebol 3 info.
 
@SomeKittens Funny enough, I came on the scene when Rebol 2 was "deprecated" so I never learned the VID graphics dialect, which some people are madly in love with... and I was always like "well I'll just use whatever the Rebol 3 one is when that comes out"... I only recently installed a Rebol 2 interpreter to help @KK. :-)
 
If something's not clear/working, ask here. We need to clean up house, though.
 
Oh, and on my Red compile VM of course. But that's core not view.
 
@Adrian You've only had 3 months, don't stress yourself.
What would really be interesting would be a REBOL replacement for Apache/nginx
 
5:20 PM
@SomeKittens By the lead dev of Red, our own @DocKimbel : cheyenne-server.org
@SomeKittens Note that many of the things you see, like Chris's Rebol source formatter or whatever, it's all running Rebol on the server. stackoverflow rss feed for answers to questions with the Rebol tag
Not every Rebol-powered website is as ugly as rebol.com :-)
 
In any case, wrt to 'wasting' time learning Rebol 2, I wouldn't worry. The language isn't hasn't changed that much overall. Mostly re-architected, fixed bugs (and introduced new ones :-) ), plus some nice enhancements to parse.
 
I can't believe I haven't heard of Rebol before
 
@SomeKittens I can believe it. The marketing has been a disaster, it was proprietary which is a deal killer for almost every programmer in the modern world. I wasn't evangelizing it before it was open source, who would?
@SomeKittens TWO YEARS without a single update, bugfix, or patch. It deserved the obscurity it got.
"Last night I got a phone call, from the number at your dad's arcade." "But that number's been disconnected for years..."
"He said he was going to change everything, medicine, science...religion. He wouldn't have left that, he wouldn't have left you." :-)
 
@SomeKittens, in the REPL, remember to use help or "?"
 
What's the REPL?
the interpreter?
 
5:31 PM
@SomeKittens "Read evaluate print loop". It's the command line essentially.
 
A read–eval–print loop (REPL) is a simple, interactive computer programming environment. The term is most usually used to refer to a Lisp interactive environment, but can be applied to command line shells and similar environments for programming languages such as APL, BASIC, F#, Haskell, J, Julia, Perl, PHP, Prolog, Python, R, Ruby, Scala, Smalltalk, Standard ML, Tcl, et al. Synonyms include interactive toplevel and language shell. REPLs facilitate exploratory programming and debugging because the read–eval–print loop is usually much faster than the classic edit-compile-run loop. In a R...
 
Right, the Rebol console
 
Lots of info at your fingertips from that help <command> or source <command>. help/doc xxx will open up a browser page at a age describing the command in question.
If you do ? "some text", the lookup will be on "some text" as a substring in any command name or description text. Anyhow, the variants are described when you just invoke help by itself.
 
@SomeKittens Worth noting, and kind of geeking out over, is that function definitions themselves -- the "spec" -- is a dialect. Ready to get your mind blown again? Ok! Try writing foo: func ["my foo function" value [integer!] "some value" /optional opt [string!] "a string parameter"] [print value if optional [print opt]]
Then say help foo
Then say source foo
Then let your mind reel a little.
Once you realize what you're dealing with here, you'll see what Carl saw, and what we now see.
@Adrian says I should make it look less messy by not putting it all on one line, but I do it for convenience since the REPL is not good with multiple lines in R3 so I want to make the copy/paste easy
foo: func [
    "my foo function"
    value [integer!] "some value"
    /optional opt [string!] "a string parameter"
] [
    print value
    if optional [
        print opt
    ]
]
 
ahhh
 
5:40 PM
That's how we'd do it.
The issues with not being able to do multiline pastes are a speedbump. Again, only 3 months. :-)
 
really heading out now
 
foo 10 will print 10. foo/optional 20 "Hello" will print 20, and then Hello. (if that wasn't apparent, I guess I went straight to the SOURCE and HELP stuff).
 
@HostileFork That was cool
See you guys tonight
 
@SomeKittens Really headed to sleep now. :-) TTYS!
 
 
1 hour later…
6:53 PM
@DocKimbel, are you around?
 
@Adrian I'm always around. ;-)
 
I would like to ask if you could describe a little bit how Red handles collections and series in terms of (im)mutability and looking towards multi-threading, multi-tasking, and parallel processing.
Have you seen Rich Hickey describe Clojure's approach to structural sharing for collections?
 
@Adrian No, I haven't.
 
Would you consider anything like that, or will Red's mutability when it comes to data structures be similar to Rebol's?
I would recommend that you look at it.
[Clojure Persistence Implementation](http://blog.higher-order.net/2009/02/01/understanding-clojures-persistentvector-implementation/)
 

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