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7:00 PM
Red by default, handles series the same way Rebol does, they are immutable. It will be possible to make them immutable using PROTECT, but I'm not sure yet to what extent it will be required by the concurrency handling framework. Currently, I plan to handle shared states in concurrency cases using Actors (as in Scala and Erlang).
Clojure is a purely functional language, no? So its concurrency model will greatly differ from Red.
 
No, not purely functional.
 
So, it allows mutable collections?
"Red by default, handles series the same way Rebol does, they are immutable." Sorry, they are mutable!
 
That's why I was thinking that some of their ideas might be useful. The approach, when I saw Rich describe it in a video, it seemed quite interesting.
The collections are immutable, but mutability appears to exist by sharing parts of the collection that is being added to, or removed from, for example. You end up with a tree linking the various immutable parts. The link above goes over some of this.
So performance is decent and the memory requirements are lowered - obviously, since a collection doesn't need to be copied in whole.
 
I see, I'm bookmarking it for later, when I'll implement concurrency support.
 
I'll try and find a few other links for you, if you'd like.
 
7:08 PM
That would help.
 
I would like to ask that whomever is looking at the concurrency aspects of Rebol also consider this technique for working with data structures, but I'm not sure who the appropriate people are on the Rebol side. @earl, @HostileFork, @BrianH, no?
 
I see @SomeKittens was here, that's cool :)
 
friend?
 
From the JavaScript room
 
@Adrian Probably BrianH.
 
7:14 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum Can't sleep, arrgh, and the computer beeped. But yeah he's been here before. If you look at that example about "help" and "source" it's something I kind of forget to mention but is pretty important
 
musiclessonz.com/rebol_tutorial.html would this be a good tutorial to read?
 
@Adrian My advice is to leave concurrency to Red and focus Rebol on being the bootstrap/portability layer. We don't want to invest any more in C than we need to, Doc is right...let's stay focused, only so many dev cycles.
@BenjaminGruenbaum It's Rebol 2, but you can still learn something from it.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum, that targets Rebol 2 - I believe Nick might have an updated one though. Let me look
 
I predict in 2 years or a little longer, Red will be the new "main" Rebol... I just ask for stability, design consensus, and common sense in the interim. We're all on the same team here.
And Rebol will still be useful even when it's not the "main Rebol" so to speak, it will have applications.
It will be able to insinuate itself onto and into different kinds of systems and its source understood by different kinds of people.
But most of us won't want to work on it anymore. :-)
All things being equal, why would a Rebol programmer want to work with a codebase where you write if (x == 10) { blah blah } when you can write if x = 10 [blah blah ] Nicer if you can LOAD the system-level code, isn't it? :-)
Although in that fake case you could "load" it, obviously not getting what you meant. :-)
 
@HostileFork Because all things will never be equal :)
 
7:28 PM
@earl Not true. We are all moving in perfect peace and harmony towards Elvisness. Soon all will become Elvis. Everything everywhere will be Elvis.
Why do you think they call it evolution, anyway? It's really Elvislution.
(And you know what's going on in that Bermuda Triangle? Elvis needs boats.)
Five letters in Rebol. Five letters in Elvis. Coincidence? I think not.
2
Someone has to star that. --^ :-) Thanks.
 
And you should probably better go back to sleep! :)
 
Yeah, turn off your system.
 
You can't make yourself sleep, it doesn't work like that.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I've asked Nick about it on AltME. Will let you know when he responds.
 
There's drugs for that ...
 
7:33 PM
Anyway, @BenjaminGruenbaum is learning Rebol, we've got @SomeKittens learning, it's fun times. Would hate to miss it.
 
And both of them will still be around when you wake up again!
 
Don't question my methods. Why, I remember when this room was just earl, Graham, me, and a cardboard box.
@BenjaminGruenbaum I'm biased but you might find my writing about Rebol to be grounding. I do little things like proving how many Dudeney numbers there are with it... note the parentheses being used as "training wheels", we don't do that once we learn to read and write.
 
8:05 PM
Heh, that demo program in Nick's tutorial is sort of prior art for Rebmu. Rebmu works in Rebol 2, I could cut 40% off the character count :-P
Then people really wouldn't understand it. :-)
Has anyone tested to see if that "works" as a sales pitch? Just because it's short and incomprehensible and "does a lot of stuff" doesn't necessarily make it a good first look.
I read the page and I see a bunch of "REBOL (all caps) is great because..." and makes it sound pretty good, then there's gibberish and some old-school screenshots. We might think that's funny, but I don't think most people will understand what they're looking at.
Hullo again @graph ...
 
@HostileFork doing javascript, trying to get my ambitious hobby project to run. I came here by accident and have no Idea what Rebol is lol
 
I wish I could search and replace "REBOL" on the Internet with "Rebol". :-/
@graph Well, it's the hot new thing. That's really old. :-) But it got open-sourced and isn't proprietary anymore which is why we care all of a sudden.
 
so what can you do with it? :)
 
@graph Well, it's a programming language, so... whatever a programming language can do (Turing Completeness). :-) But okay, so your background is Javascript...anything else? Know any Lisp?
 
Asp.net + C#. I don't want to wander too far into nerd-land lol
 
8:14 PM
@graph Aw. Why not? Nerds have the best toys. (And strangers have the best candy.)
 
shit right now I have something, and were I less focused on trying to make it nice, learn things I don't know, and instead just finish this, I would have a fun website out in no time.
so Rebol? I think not lol
 
@graph Well even if you don't want to be a nerd it's useful. It's got a rich parser, so you don't have to put URLs in strings (for instance)... you can just have a variable of type url and be like my-site: http://hostilefork.com It just works.
 
show me some finished project done in Rebol :p
 
Then you can write code that goes if url? my-site [do some stuff with my-site]
 
preferedly one of yours :)
 
8:17 PM
@graph I'm more of an evangelist, I write little things. I advocate its use currently for small tasks like what other people might use awk or sed or curl or whatever.
The people doing the big projects are those like @GrahamChiu
Or @DocKimbel with things like webservers and in fact a whole language which is a "competitor" (friendly competition) to Rebol.
But hey, what about this
 
no sale :D
 
@graph So why not? It's very clean. Just you don't understand it, and that's that?
Each time a new answer to a Rebol question is made, it pops up in our chat room here because of it. That's not cool?
Pretty short if you ask me. It's very much as short and clean as such a thing can be
I challenge you to write your own in your language of choice and hold it up against that, for JavaScript answers or whatever.
Once you try you'll realize what you're missing out on.
And you'll go "whoa, seriously? that's... effective."
 
I want to finish my project. Which will change the world. So there's that :-D
 
@graph Well, what's your project?
Got a site for it?
 
yea it's not ready though
Here's an idea - you should sell Rebol to HN (hackernews, news.ycombinator.com)
 
8:26 PM
@graph Those kinds of guys wore out on Rebol enthusiasm a long time ago, it made a splash and people used to be hyped in the day (probably before your time)... but was closed source and lots of empty promises... they've stopped paying attention. But that wasn't the fault of the people in this room, who are working on repairing the damage... :-)
 
yea you guys are fighting the good fight
2
 
@graph Trying! Lots of hacking on the source, trying to get some drive-by enthusiasm started... it'll happen. The thing is too good to be ignored for long now that the main blockade is ripped out. It's apache 2, you can use it however you want more or less...integrate it into products...
Question is are we talking one year, two years, three years? I say you'll be reading those hackernews articles about the latest Rebol craze in about... a year.
Sooner than that would be tough. Possible, but unlikely.
 
graph - we are not fighting, we are standing on the other side of the Matrix, you know, kind of woke-up :-)
 
@pekr Wasn't the Matrix a movie about... fighting? :-)
 
@pekr yea but inside the matrix there are fancy new js frameworks and I can make a web-based solution for the software my old employer has, need a quick prototype for that up and running.....must stay productive, must stay on target....
 
8:33 PM
@graph I predicted server side JavaScript would win years ago, before node showed up, now it's looking more and more relevant every day.
But that's just for today. Rebol is the future. Well, Red. But hey, it's all evolution.
There's the medium and the message. I hate the Rebol chat system, I like StackOverflow. What it's written in isn't always the most important thing. But all things being equal, you want the implementation to be clean.
I want a site that works like StackOverflow, but better, but written in Rebol. In the meantime I'm not going to use something that's bad "just because it's written in Rebol"
 
srsly we all should do the wordpress, copy+paste some php, some jquery thing
 
So I'm kind of the voice of sanity around here, which is totally ridiculous, because I'm crazy.
 
ask in the silly php forums for tricks how to do it and beg for handholding
 
@graph Speaking of the Matrix and blue pill / red pill, ever notice that PHP quite literally has a logo that looks like a blue pill? :-)
It's poetic. I think it's so bad it's intentional. Like a compass. You're supposed to get the joke and realize "ohhhh."
 
blue was the "stay inside"-pill?
 
8:38 PM
@graph Yup, "Red" pill is you wake up. :-) Get it? Have you read PHP: A Fractal of Bad Design?
 
ok so I got some dignity. got SQL-Server, Entity Framework into C#, Asp.net serving basic pages full of javascript. Over there, helping out with Angular.js to make it convenient. Man just some more practice and I could be super rpoductive with it
 
@graph More respectable than PHP, granted. :-)
 
@HostileFork yea, I also want something that's useful in the job/freelance market
create nice things/products, be employable as well
 
@graph We're working to try and make it possible for people to get paid to do Rebol. The Apache 2 instead of GPL license greased the wheels a little bit on that. But what's really great is how productive it can be, it's like a secret weapon when you need to do various data processing...like a swiss army knife you carry around with you.
Some folks are working paid on Rebol, just not a whole lot...most people are using it as part of what they do but really in this swiss-army knife sense.
I don't get paid, I just drink wine and chat and try and make the TENS OF THOUSANDS OF REGRESSION TESTS ON RED WORK FOR THE R3 PORT AAAARGH WHY ARE THERE SO MANY OF THEM!? :-) j/k, I love regression tests, just not when they are killing me.
 
so uh do you work on the actual language implementation?
that's kinda badass
yea I an imagine people working on jobs and getting their way with which tools they use and they say "boss I want to use §H$%H" and boss says "lol whatever you like"
 
8:45 PM
@graph Well Red was always open source. I really only got involved in working on it once Rebol became open source too, so December. We're all badasses here :-) but the real badasses in terms of language implementation are @DocKimbel and @BrianH (in terms of steering and being involved in the Red/Rebol languages).
 
so what do you work with in your day job @HostileFork?
 
@graph I'm living off what's left of my savings, but I used to work for Microsoft. I worked on SQL Server, the product itself...as well as Microsoft Access, the product itself, as well as then doing compiler design for Microsoft Research.
 
@HostileFork and in the future?
 
Most recently I consulted for Evernote, I also worked with the people who did the interface design for the computer stuff in Minority Report and Iron Man.
 
so you're going in and out of the matrix
 
8:50 PM
@graph Right now I'm worrying about Rebol and Red and trying to deal with a very annoying and abstract health problem which is this weird constant "pressure" in my head. It's driving me nuts and interfering with my ability to work. I'm not sure what's wrong with me or how to fix it. So I might fling myself off a cliff to make it stop, I dunno. In the meantime, Rebol and Red are cool so I like to talk about it with people.
 
ah a website, how did you code it?
 
@graph That's a weird story, actually. I used to keep all those on LiveJournal, which maybe you've heard of. It's been bought and sold a couple times, and now I think some Russian company still owns it. Anyway, it began sucking and I realized I needed to scrape all my hundreds of dream log entries out of it so i could put them on a site that didn't put giant full screen overlay ads for Best Buy on my pages...
 
"pressure" hm
maybe too many dreams?
 
@graph So I had to write a scraper, it was one of my first Rebol projects of any size, and I created a "dialect" so in the "source code" I can say things like [weird-alien: (laughing) "You know you're asleep, right?"] and it gets built out to HTML
 
personally I am skeptical of what the brain produces while sleeping. And especially during half-sleep when I wake up early.
so I stfu all of that as much as I can, and when I'm kinda awake in the morning, I just get up and start the day
 
8:55 PM
@graph Well, I look at it very much in a circumspect way. I have had cases where I have been in a convenience store and a song is playing on the speaker and I am really convinced I know what song it is, but then I find out my mind was just projecting onto some commonality of the beat and filling in the gaps.
But that doesn't mean radio stations don't transmit songs. It's about "intention". There's signal, there's noise. You have to learn to filter, this is existence and it's how it works.
Anyway, the website is actually a bunch of built-out templates for Django. They're made by a build process in Rebol. There's no database.
 
thing is, during most of human history, people didnt have much information to process. a lifetime for a newspaper-worth of data I think. So now the brain is maybe a bit overtaxed at times. Correlation suicides and too much troublesome thoughts...
 
@graph Ha well it's only getting faster...
 
"no database" lol +1 so hip.
if you want you can tone down the thought stuff a little
life gets better this way
 
@graph My favorite database is Freebase. Google bought it. It rocks. I love graph/semantic databases, I'm done with relational messes.
 
so uh since you're a database guy as well can I ask you a question?
 
8:59 PM
@graph Sure
 
how would you store tags (for images) in a database?
I think I have read some article about this problem but it wasnt convincing
so there can be 0 or many tags, and of course I want to filter by tags
ok we're in SQL-Land lol
 
@graph Well do you in general know about database normalization?
 
a bit. So you mean a different table for all the tags?
 
These days if I were doing JavaScript and wanted to put that kind of info in I would use MongoDB or equivalent
Nice JSON syntax
That stuff is a cakewalk
 
but will $Bigcorporation accept their project on MongoDB?
no, therefore I will focus and learn to set up and deal with SQL Server
 
9:03 PM
Sure.
 
also, I wanna be productive and SHIP
 
$Bigcorporations are using it, and some $Bigcorporations would ignore SQL Server. I worked on it, and I can still tell you that is fact.
 
so no more excursions "oh look, a new database, lets get distracted"
so a different table with all teh tags you say? :D
 
For web projects, MongoDB is not fringe. It's deployment-level.
 
I have my own server since last friday
a buddy helped me set everything up and told me to seriously clean up my application
still buggy. There is so much to learn
so much
 
9:05 PM
But the thing you have to know about relational databases and situations like the tags is that you don't grow tables "wider"... the number of columns in any given table gets set. So you either fix how many tags you have, or you squish them into a string in one column, or you buy into the SQL metaphor and break it out so that there's a table listing tags by ID... a table listing images by ID... and a table of tuples that just rattle off image ID and tag pairs and you trust the Database.
It sounds "nutty" but that's what query optimization is for.
Still, it's not a good fit for most web things, the reason I don't like using SQL behind most web projects I do.
 
graph: hostilefork can also do nice logos :-) He's multi-skilled :-)
 
@pekr :-)
 
:-)
 
I would love to have anything up and running, see the workings and limitations of my stuff with my own eyes, not just hear about it, and go from there
 
I am not into databases for quite some time, but I wonder, if tags/xml databases are still mostly a trick, how to get stuff into blob and pretend, it is pure new design :-)
 
9:08 PM
I'm doing this in the evening and on weekends
yea @HostileFork your logo is nice
 
@graph Oh, thanks. You mean the avatar? I think pekr was referring to the Rebol logo although lately I'm a bit more enthusiastic for the Red one, but partially because I didn't come up with it 3 years ago :-)
 
I would put tags in block! :P
 
wow
the rebol logo is very nice
professional
@rebolek what si "in block"?
"in a table column"?
 
@graph block! is basic Rebol datatype. I'm thinking in Rebol terms, not in DB terms.
 
rright
 
9:15 PM
block is kind of an rebol array ...
 
@graph He's making a joke, just saying he likes the flexibility of Rebol's list type...but like in any language, there's limits to what you would do with the built-in memory stuctures...you need a binding to MySQL or whatever... Rebol has it
I vote we don't make jokes over newbies heads without saying "j/k". :-)
 
nah it's cool
 
@graph Do you know RegEx?
 
I envy you guys, with your skillz I'd totally realize all my ideas
yea I have been using RegEx a lot
 
0
A: How do I perform benchmark comparisons on a series of functions in Rebol?

moliadThe challenge with profiling in REBOL (R2 & R3) is three-fold. timing, looping & Memory use. Timing: on some OSes the default timing is not precise (like windows). this can be largely alleviated by creating bigger loops which basically scale the test to acceptable timing margins. You...

 
9:20 PM
@graph You'd be surprised, hang around with us we might solve large parts of your problem for you just on a lark. :-) I posted a question about JSON in Rebol and had barely walked away from the computer when I got back and rgchris had written the code I needed
@graph Note also my answer to this, which totally surprised that guy. :-)
0
Q: Modeless, parentless wxDialog still always above wxFrame window in z-order?

Head GeekMy program opens a wxFrame-based window and multiple modeless and parentless wxDialog-based windows. It all works beautifully, except that the wxDialog-based windows insist on always being on top of the wxFrame-based one. I know about wxDIALOG_NO_PARENT, and I'm using it. The dialogs stay open w...

 
yea that's the idea I hav gotten
so do you guys have your own webservers?
I am sure you do
 
@graph I have a VPS ("virtual private server") with RimuHosting, it does what I need, but my needs are modest.
 
@HostileFork what was up with "Regex"
 
I watch the apache logs and get all depressed at the hackers.
@graph Oh, show me a RegEx for something you've done. Anything will do.
 
uhm I was trying to do an educational game
at taht time I thought it was nice doing it with Regex- a topic where your skills get rusty quickyl
 
9:25 PM
@graph Well let's see. I just want to show you something.
 
so you're in a science fiction setting, some aliens shoot string-torpedoes at you and you have to match those strings with regex (basic regex), or decipher an alien language with hints (to make use of lookaheads, lookbehinds)
my current project works in a similar way, but I'm simulating real business-school topics instead (you know, to be less nerdy and all)
 
String torpedoes... you're making me think of Typer Shark :-)
 
yea pretty much that idea
 
Typer Shark is awwwesome.
I type 120wpm so I love it.
Needs a Rebol rewrite! Okay, but let's see some of those RegExs...
 
me I'd have to dig up my old solution. what do you have in mind?
 
9:30 PM
@moliad Awesome answer.
@graph Well I want you to show me a RegEx that you worked hard on or whatever, and I'll show you how we'd do it.
 
oh hm lemme see
 
I know where this is going...
 
you'd do it with substring() and .indexOf()
admit it!!11
 
no
 
nah of course not
it will be someting even more funky than regex
shorter
more obfuscated :p
just ". . !" to do something totally complicated
 
9:34 PM
just show us some regex :)
 
yea I'm searching my external harddisk for the one special file with the good stuff
 
What...the...hell... is going on in the C++ room?
They've all lost their minds.
 
ok should I post the regex or the description/task?
 
@graph Well both would be nice, but the Regex is the most important part.
 
(.)\1{2,}
matches any string with characters repeated more than twice
nothing super special, ... I had been working on some regexes that might not be possible with just matching
 
9:38 PM
@graph I was hoping for something longer. :-) But I'm no expert in RegExp so what are examples of successes and failures as input?
 
Matches aaaeee | ???????? | gooogle
Non-Matches google | booboo
. = any character
( ) creates a grouop
\1 references taht group
{2,} "twice"
ya nothing special but do you really want something super complex?
 
yes
 
you show your rebol-solution, and if it's intriguing I look tomorrow at work if I find the "other file" with the really complicated ones
:D
 
C++ guys have lost their minds. Okay, sorry, I had to do some attempted but useless moderation intervention that made no difference and I'm back.
@graph you may not know this but the stackoverflow interface "changes" once you hit 10,000 rep
 
oh. since I only ask questions it will be some time before I hit 10000
what's it like up there?
 
9:48 PM
And when people are fighting and flagging and warring it makes little blue icons and things and I'm supposed to decide if "your language is so gay" is something that should be deleted off the chat, or whatever, and they've gone all mental flagging each other for fun.
Except this isn't the usual nonsense, it's full on total nonsense
Like everyone is on crack or pixie sticks at the same time
If I get drunk and ramble and say weird things here, that's not so surprising because I do that, but if all of us were... that would be weird.
 
so at 10k you are supposed to moderate? heh.
 
Like, all online at the same time, all trashed, all saying nonsense.
That's what's going on, and these are some seriously good C++ programmers, or at least, some seriously knowledgable ones.
Who apparently want to turn StackOverflow chat into 4chan for some reason.
Let's get back to what I was doing before I got called away
    Matches	aaaeee | ???????? | gooogle
    Non-Matches	google | booboo

    . = any character
    ( ) creates a grouop
    \1 references that group

    {2,} "twice"
 
exactly
 
@graph Pardon my ignorance here, but why are you wanting to match "gooogle" and not "google"? Isn't... three the number you're interested in, not two?
 
three or more same characters
 
9:54 PM
yes^^
you'd get shot at by torpedos that have this characteristic
 
So if any instance of three or more of the same characters appear, you want that to pass? aaaee is okay?
 
your own systems would have stuff that matches 2 same characters. If you matchthat you hurt yourself, that was the idea
of the game
 
Must be in a row?
No aaeea?
 
no aaeea
 
Arrite. Got it.
 
9:56 PM
the nit would be like (.).*\1{2}
the \1 reference works later, like a variable
 
@rebolek You want to do this one? I can write something, but it might not be that good.
 
^^ roughly dont overthink it for now
 
@graph I was told once (in a dream, yes) the following: "There is something you need to understand about showing people Future Things. You have to be careful. It's a lot like if you are dealing with someone who has never had a grape before. When you give them their first grape you must be 100% sure it's not a sour one...because if it is sour, then every time they're asked if they want a grape after that they will say no."
 
@HostileFork I've got a solution but it's clearly not so short as this regex
 
@rebolek Well brevity isn't the point, yes it's kind of a bad example, but we had to like... reverse engineer the 3 out of it :-)
 
9:58 PM
@HostileFork those dreams of yours...they are not your friend lol
 
Welcome @ErsinSerçe -- our apologies for StackOverflow's anti-spam rule of making you ask questions or answer them! See our FAQ
 
@rebolek doent have to be short, it would be nice to have somethign readable, but also shorter than many ifs or .substring .indexOf
 

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