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12:00 AM
"your area"? Are you referring to broadband?
 
dial up
 
did you use a modem, ever?
ok.
 
yea man lol
 
ever use an external modem? :P
 
i have. But not one where you use a phone receiver
 
12:00 AM
not that I can remember
I was also pretty young at the time still.
 
I never used the phone receiver ones either
 
I was only born in '86
 
old
 
My first. <3
 
12:02 AM
we got internet as soon as Bell (provider) had it available to us. my fathers work gave him a new computer and payed for the internet for his job.
they were replacing the typewriter he used to use.
 
@Luggage mine was very similar
 
but that wasn't until like '97/'98
ahh, yea.. well. we still use external modems in our product at work. look similar to those @Luggage... we straight out of the late early 90's I think.
they bought a shitload of them. still use them in places where broadband doesn't run
 
@rlemon I have been addicted to the internet since I was like 5 and It's gotten way worse. I pay a shit ton of money to have unlimited independent connections in different locations and a slew of devices.
I have WiFi, a smart watch, a smart phone, a tablet, a laptop, a desktop.
Several of those devices have their own unlimited internet connection.
 
I just have a typewriter. I'm on it right now.
 
@Luggage our old typewriter was sweet. one of those fancy ones with a backspace and shit
'cutting edge' for middle management jobs in 1991
 
12:05 AM
in 91, cutting edge was probably one of the word processors with a 1-line LCD screen
 
I think the one he had at work had a lcd screen
It was a long time ago
the one we had at home for sure didn't
 
not to mention they had personal computers then..
 
> middle management
MTD Products is an American manufacturer of outdoor power equipment for the mass market. Headquartered in Cleveland, Ohio, USA, the company began in 1932 and is a family-owned, private company. It originated as a tool and die maker (Modern Tool and Di.e. Company). MTD's main competitors are Stihl, Ariens, Snapper Inc., John Deere and Husqvarna. Over the years, MTD acquired the Troy-Bilt, Bolens, Cub Cadet, and Yard-Man brands and/or companies. == History == Theo Moll, Emil Jochum and Erwin Gerhard formed a partnership to purchase the assets of Modern Tool and Die Company located on Power Avenue...
he worked for a MTD plant in the city here
pretty sure it's gone now
they were not quick with technology I think
 
this was promising
but spoiler alert it was terrible
 
I like my wine at 98.6 freedoms.
 
12:10 AM
Throw some ice cubes in there
 
ice cubes in wine is a sin
it gives you cancer
 
You know what gives me cancer
 
may as well water down your beer too
 
Warm wine
 
so chill it. don't add ice
that's just wrong
 
12:11 AM
so put sake in there instead. Problem solved.
 
Gotta keep it cool though
 
disgusting
 
who doesn't like hot sake?
 
I feel like my generations internet addiction is more focused on information than entertainment.
But I'm also bias.
 
you're a programmer.
so yea
 
12:12 AM
My generation focused on porn. Before that, we had to get a magazine.
 
@rlemon & @Luggage Have the best of both and get some drinking stones.
 
my generation focused on downloading everything they could.
want a single song from a artist? download the entire discography.
 
you either had to walk into a store and slap a titty mag on the counter or get conspicuously covered magazines in the mail
 
@Allenph I do have whisky stones. they work alright
nothing beats just tossing the bottle in the freezer for an hour
 
I've read about that @rlemon. At the beginning stages of the public internet people had a hard time learning to clean up their stuff because they had no concept of the differences between physical ownership and virtual ownership.
@rlemon When you put liquor in the freezer it gets thick.
 
12:14 AM
get better stuff
 
they knew the difference, they just got away with stealing eveything under the sun
 
internet security wasn't a thing until recently.
 
back then we coppied games, operatins systems, movies. Everyone knew it was wrong but everyone did it.
EVERYONE
 
I remember downloading a cracked version of Titanic before it came out in Canada. took like 4 days.. and we had to buy a new hard drive to store it all.
 
they sold blank floppies at the stores! :)
 
12:16 AM
so basically, when Titanic came out Canada had the same internet capacity as @Shrek has now :D
 
but more reliable electricity
 
lol
 
I never pirated games
 
@Luggage I don't mean priating, I just mean an obsession with personal data accumulation.
Curious, who is Shrek and how geographically fucked is he?
 
He lives in a swamp
 
12:22 AM
I pirate all sorts of shit. I did it for YEARS without a VPN too.
 
Not that geographically isolated but he hates visitors
 
@Meredith Shrek is love, Shrek is life.
 
he lives in India
he's got spotty internet at best
 
It is actually crazy. I taught my friend to pirate Game of Thrones and he got caught. It was his FIRST TIME and he didn't even seed.
 
@rlemon I am in office atm and we have a gigabit connection.
 
12:23 AM
Game of thrones? that' way to recent. don't pirate any more
 
@Allenph so his ISP forwarded a message they got from the developer/publisher.
 
I was speaking of another time.
 
And I was using the same ISP while pirating 6 months ago and I seeded and downloaded all sorts of shit. I even downloaded that exact torrent without a VPN.
And he got caught.
 
I pirate game of thrones every year
ezpz
 
@Luggage Unpopular opinion, especially in this group (programmers) but I don't believe in intellectual property.
 
12:24 AM
5 mins ago, by Meredith
I never pirated games
2
 
'getting caught' is mostly just a scare email/letter, they can't do much more beyond deciding you're not worth taking money form and stopping your service.
 
boy
dont use my words against me
 
@GameJesus (@Loktar) did you pirate games?
 
!!s/words/lies/
 
now, with that said, I haven't pirated anything in years since I've actually had money to buy shit.
 
12:25 AM
@Luggage dont use my lies against me (source)
 
@Shrek yeah
sucked over dialup
 
@rlemon I know that, but he's one of those that freaked out and thought he was going to jail or paying a million dollars in fines. He was legitimately freaking out so I didn't laugh at the situation until after I went home.
 
like 48 parts to a game
 
no ad blockers, no pirating, 100% legit for like 6 years now.
 
had to find the best warez and gamez sites
 
12:25 AM
@rlemon I could buy game of thrones if I wanted to but fuck that
tv should be free
 
pastebin.com/TmrXQU3L < The irony of this method is incredible (also ... yeah i know I should have just used jade)
 
had to use downloader programs back then too lol like gozilla
download gator
 
yea, it should be. so should gas. I'm not about to fill up and drive away tho
 
because browsers couldn't resume downloads
 
who pays for the production of TV is free?
 
12:25 AM
fun times
 
Gas shouldn't be free
 
neither should tv
 
Dinosaurs died for it
 
My deal is that if I can afford it, I think it's reasonably priced, and I support it a bunch, I'll buy it.
 
@Meredith nope they didn't
 
12:26 AM
No dinosaurs were killed in the production of game of thrones
 
Gas is fishes
 
I haven't pirated anything in like 15 or more years
 
I mean it's almost all from plant material
 
I'm not as long gone, but I'm getting there.
 
I only pirated games when I was a kid and teen pretty much
 
12:26 AM
people work, they deserve to get paid.
 
If I feel like I would never want to consume the media enough to spend money, I just pirate it.
 
I stopped pirating games
once I was able to install Steam
 
no reason to even pirate games now
 
that took about 4 years on dialup
 
Because they've lost nothing. I copied, I didn't steal, and they would never have gotten my money anyways.
 
12:27 AM
@Loktar is like the only person I think 100% agrees with me on this too.
<3
 
yeah
 
no ad blockers, no pirating,
 
@Allenph That's broken logic.
 
if you want the media, pay for it or don't pay for it and don't consume it.
 
@rlemon Everyone deserves to get paid but you don't need to pay for their products for that to happen
 
12:27 AM
@Meredith lol what?
 
@rlemon I agree with you too
 
that makes no sense
 
isn't that how they make money....
 
Yes it does
 
no, it gives me cancer
 
12:28 AM
Piracy is the reason DLC exists
 
Like how many communist revolutions have we had in the history of our planet
 
@rlemon & @Luggage It seems like it at first. But consider this...

You come up with the idea for a car. You can't own that idea.

You come up with the idea for a specific car. You CAN own that idea.
 
it definitely makes sense
 
Exactly where does the threshold lie, and can it ever be objective?
 
@Allenph you can own the idea for a car
 
12:28 AM
I don't follow your analogy.
 
1 min ago, by rlemon
if you want the media, pay for it or don't pay for it and don't consume it.
is basically all of my argument
 
the first owner of JCB owned the patent for hydraulics
 
you're stealing if you don't pay
that's all there is to it
 
@Luggage At what point does an idea become specific enough that it becomes your property?
 
Here is my interpretation of your line of thought: "I decide that I value your product less than you do, so I won't pay. Since I can either not use it, or just steal it and you get $0 either way, there is nothing wrong with stealing."
 
12:30 AM
now, if you wanna steal it and are fine with admitting it is theft.. it is petty theft and I'm not going to judge you on it. but trying to justify it is bullshit imo .
2
 
yea, it's pretty minor.
I do worse crimes.
 
I do way worse crimes.
 
What's the most expensive thing you guys have ever shoplifted
 
@rlemon It definitely isn't theft, whether it is moral, I never said.
 
@Allenph Thats for the patent/copyright office to decide
 
12:31 AM
I think it is probably immoral, but...meh.
 
here is a fun thing
 
I think it is 100% theft if someone has setup a payment model and you circumvent it
 
you create the best idea of a game ever
 
@Shrek How is their decision more legitimate?
 
you want to mint money from it
ubisoft comes in
clones your idea
 
12:32 AM
@Meredith Nothing. I have only stolen digital things.
 
you can't compete with them, you rot in hell.
 
(and those a long time ago)
 
@rlemon yea
 
@Meredith I don't know if that's a fair question
 
when I was younger I stole a bunch of lighters. we thought we were cool stealing from the counter. one of us got caught and then we all stopped.
 
12:32 AM
@Meredith null ;
 
we were stupid shits.
 
@rlemon Well, there is definitely a difference. It's mostly just semantics, but theft is stealing property, which I don't think Intellectual Property is, first of all. And second, when you steal you take the original and only copy.
 
so if I have a digital scan of a book I wrote and you stole that, you wouldn't consider it theft?
 
Like I said, I still think it's immoral, maybe just as much as stealing, maybe more, maybe less. And it is similar in nature, morally.
But, it definitely IS NOT stealing.
 
@Allenph Did you consider my scenario?
 
12:34 AM
So this all hangs on your definition of stealing, not that it's wrong?
 
I think you're trying to draw a fuzzy line where a defined one already exists. digital theft is real.
 
Notch, the creator of Minecraft, says "If you can't afford Minecraft, just pirate it" (Not an exact quote)
 
The government is the real thief
 
@Shrek The market would change for sure. You always have those problems though.
 
We were arguing right or wrong.. just or unjust, not if it was 'stealing' or 'some other words'
 
12:34 AM
The Chinese do a lot of IP "theft." So do all sorts of people.
 
@Allenph not just the market, there will be no incentive in inventing anything
if you can't profit from it/ own it
 
@Meredith I'm an anarchist. I agree fully.
 
@Allenph existence of a wrong doesn't negate the wrong.
 
@rlemon Never said it did.
 
sounds like you're trying to use it as a justification
 
12:35 AM
The argument that IP is property is an entirely different one.
Then let me clear it up, I still think it's immoral.
 
ip is property
 
It's just not bad enough that I care.
 
IP is property
 
The idea that humans can have property is an interesting one
 
@Meredith now thats a discussion i would like to have
 
12:35 AM
@Meredith Oh no. You're a commie. We were vibing hard. Crap.
 
although don't forget we are merely 100,000 year old specie we still have our primitive values just morphed into better means.
 
Yeah we were so vibing
 
that's like those nutters telling the cops they're "free citizens" and don't need to follow the laws. IP is property, and denying it isn't going to change that.
 
(Total joke, don't get butthurt.)
 
Is it stealing if you buy DVD from someone who pirated the movie and put it on a DVD?
 
12:36 AM
You are both extremists. :)
 
@Alesana yea
 
@Allenph I don't think he is commie, unless you consider star trek a commie paradise too :P
 
What if you do it unknowingly
 
@Alesana worse than copying it yourself.
 
you just don't realize it
 
12:36 AM
@rlemon Cops have no real jurisdiction, which is why they hide behind their guns
 
@Luggage taking the position that all extremists are crazy like you're insinuating is ironically an extreme position.
 
if you buy a stolen car is it stealing?
 
@Meredith god, go away
 
you have to give the car back
 
Anyone will believe a cop if there's no witnesses
 
12:37 AM
Here in Argentina, they have movie stores, but they're all pirated
 
@Shrek It's definitely not individualist.
@Loktar Yes.
Because you have the one and only copy.
 
cars are copied all the time
 
In the universities here in Argentina if you take a graphic design class you're instructed on pirating Photoshop
 
nah there are plenty of other cars
 
just like dvd's
 
12:37 AM
@rlemon Don't make the mistake of thinking everyone who is an individualist is an idiot nutbag.
 
i mean if you want to get technical you have the one and only copy of that exact DVD
 
yep
 
how about this analogy if something costs money and you take it without paying regardless of what it is, is that stealing?
;)
 
or when you stream it you have the only exact copy too
 
How do you steal something that never belonged to anyone
 
12:38 AM
Studying economics and political science is a hobby I have a LOT of passion for, and I've come to an extremist conclusion. Doesn't mean I'm a nut who doesn't see how the world is.
 
how didn't it?
 
@Allenph yet you agreed with my view about extremists earlier:
52 mins ago, by Luggage
All of these patterns and paradigms have their place. I use classical inheritance, functional, declarative, imperative. If you say "paradigm X is bad" you are wrong for all values of x.
 
so anything you make is mine
 
6 mins ago, by rlemon
I think it is 100% theft if someone has setup a payment model and you circumvent it
 
It's mother earth's
 
12:39 AM
lol
 
@Loktar I was about to talk about that. A free market solution is securing your assets through physical media, or creating security systems...just like we do anyways.
 
@Meredith mother earth is bi-product of the sun
so its Sun's
 
It's all a matter of perspective
The sun is just another sun's sun
 
well not really
 
THAT IS EXACTLY THE POINT^
 
12:39 AM
that's why we have laws I guess
 
The laws don't really exist though
 
the perspective I'll take is the one that keeps me in the lawful/moral side
 
Laws are just checks to ensure sanity in our perspective of the world.
 
@Luggage I'm a rationalist. I think everything is best guess, and there are some interesting properties of paradoxical statements like the one I just made. But good point.
 
@rlemon He already agreed it was immoral, he is just quibbling about the term 'theft' based on some logic about idea-specificity that I didn't follow. So.. I'm moving on from that thread. :)
 
12:40 AM
He actually is a commie.
Joking assumption painfully correct.
 
denying IP isn't property isn't going to hurt anyone but the denier
 
We create the laws, if majority of people think IP shouldn't be "property", they won't be, but majority do think that it should be property.
 
@Meredith What you are saying is no deeper than "there is no forest, just trees"
 
Laws don't actually do anything. It is the illusion that laws do something that create the worst humans.
 
authority is always an illusion
 
12:41 AM
@Allenph right.
 
@Luggage What is
 
It creates a legitimate body with the right to initiate force which ends well, as you can imagine.
 
but laws themselves are made for a purpose. most of them are logical and are put in place to drive and protect the indevidual.
IP being protected is one of them
 
individual*
 
I saw the red lines. I didn't care.
 
12:42 AM
@Meredith "The laws don't really exist though". I think. I'm not sure.
 
@Shrek Not only is democracy a flawed system, you just said the "might makes right" is a morally legitimate system of government.
 
Yeah they aren't real
 
@Allenph you propose a better form, it may not be the best, its the best out of the options.
 
@Meredith forgive me. It's 8:40 here. That's 4:20 but twice as much
 
Hmm I have a couple pages that don't actually need any JS, just CSS. I don't know if I should just require them in a webpack js file anyways o.o
 
12:43 AM
@Luggage shit, it is.
 
@rlemon Laws are an attempt to abstract morality into words that can be enforced. Morality is too complicated to be understood on an objective level, let alone with people fighting over it.
Laws hurt more than they help, by a lot.
 
O.o
 
Well no laws have nothing to do with morality
They only really exist to consolidate power
 
They're SUPPOSED to.
 
@Allenph goto india and live for like 4 months
 
12:43 AM
That's the argument, anyway.
 
you'll get a good lesson on how laws help
 
They're supposed to consolidate power
 
@Shrek Where the government is rampant with corruption? No thanks.
I mean, ours is too.
 
@Allenph no go ahead if you want to bash
 
They're just more civilized about their theft.
 
12:44 AM
try it with dirty hands or shut the fuck up
 
A lot of laws have to do with morality
 
@Shrek If you had cancer would you only allow a doctor who had had cancer to treat you?
 
Although that doesn't mean they're effective
 
@Allenph Depends, if he is good or not
 
@Allenph I would prefer a doctor who has treated cancer patients
 
12:45 AM
also like your track record that is a failed analogy
 
Regardless of whether you think I'm smart or not, then...your point that I have to go to India to understand is fallacious.
 
yea.. that doctor analogy was broken
 
No, you said laws don't help
try going to a country with almost no laws :P
India is a decent sample
 
@Luggage In some ways. I only used it as proof that the premise that you must have experienced something to have any legitimate knowledge about it is false.
 
Gotcha. Identity politics
 
12:47 AM
@Allenph would you be happy living in star trek?
[TNG]
 
@Shrek You either have to have no laws or a lot of laws. When you have minimal laws people assume that because it is not illegal it is okay.
With a lot of laws you make it more specific.
 
No. I know I'd die during my first transporter travel.
 
With no laws people are forced to question the morality of their actions their damn selves.
 
Your point was laws don't help, now you yourself are contradicting it.
@Luggage or they might fix all the disease/sickness/ailment you have
 
@Shrek That is a loaded question fallacy.
 
12:48 AM
They'll fix it in my clone that came out the other side.
But I'll die. Every time.
 
@Luggage oh that argument
what if they transport you in stream
 
There is no other way it can be, sadly.
 
in steam!
 
@Shrek My more specific premise is that laws don't help vs no laws. But that in order to have any kind of order when your society DOES have laws you must have a lot of them.
 
lol
 
12:49 AM
@Allenph your whole premise disagrees with civilization
2
 
*human civilization
he might belong to some other specie
 
must be 8:40 in india, too.
 
?
 
@Loktar Mainstream history and philosophy is a monopoly and is written by people who have successfully perpetuated an ideology.
 
@Allenph ok that's an easy way to discount everything you don't agree with.
 
12:50 AM
/leave
 
@Allenph i like you
 
it's all fake news anyway.
 
"Mainstream history". I'm out.
 
@Loktar Fair point. I just mean you're being very narrow.
That was a poor choice of words. Now I look like a "fake news" guy.
 
All governance tends towards civil war.
 
12:51 AM
@Allenph lol I'm not taking this too seriously don't worry about it haha
 
@phenomnomnominal lol, that i agree with, you can never satisfy everyone and governance is exactly that.
 
mhmm
you end up with ideological extremes.
who will eventually fight
 
@Loktar I get pretty revved up. Not in an angry way where I'd sling insults, just in a debate kind of way.
 
then they all agree, lets not do that again
and then the cycle repeats
 
@Allenph yeah that's how I generally get
 
12:53 AM
You can hold both the view that we need a form of organization/government AND that power corrupts and should be questioned.
 
@Luggage why isn't there an emoji for tinfoilhat
 
core tenet of the anarchist manifesto
 
Also is it possible to use emjois in here
 
🚕
 
🍋
 
12:53 AM
how
 
That emoji for "no"
 
🤔
 
control-command-space on mac
 
dark-theme for everywhere
 
12:54 AM
fuck you if you are using none?
 
I have an emoji keyboard but it doesnt type in here
 
I'm passionate about what I believe in and have put a lot of time and research into it. I'm very driven to get as close to "right" as I can get...and I've noticed a couple things.

1) Other people are really good at finding flaws in your methodology and they make excellent resources for refining your views.
2) Most of the time the people who want to talk about it are crazy, and most people don't give two shits, let alone want to talk about it.
 
That raises a question, why the fuck is there no emoji input method on win blows?
 
🇳🇮🇨🇪
nvm got it
 
But I've learned to love being wrong. I gain nothing from being right.
 
12:55 AM
!!wrong
 
@rlemon That didn't make much sense. Use the !!/help command to learn more.
 
shut up cap
 
you're wrong
 
nice emojis luggage boy
 
12:55 AM
!!/giphy nailed it
 
cant even emoji right
 
@Luggage You certainly can. That's what a Libertarian is. But you can also argue that one outweighs the other.
 
the C and E were intentional?
 
@rlemon Let me rephrase. I enjoy being corrected.
 
12:56 AM
it's supposed to say nice but you got a random ass flag
 
I saw NICE
 
@Allenph you're wrong*
 
This chat is always poppin'.
 
🇵🇴🇵🇵🇮🇳🇬
 
@rlemon Did I seriously use the wrong one somewhere?
 
12:57 AM
That random ass flag is my flag ^^
 
🇩🇪
 
Well for the country I live in anyways
 
just FYi, "In a NY minute" is playing in our office right now and it makes this whole conversation feel super romantic.
 
🇳🇮🇨🇪
 
12:57 AM
I still dont understand what that is
like why
 
!!fun
 
@rlemon That didn't make much sense. Maybe you meant: fu
 
cap no
y u b like dis
 
it just pick a recent message it thinks is the most drama.. somehow..
 
FUCK YOU I'M THE MOST DRAMATIC!!!!????
 
12:58 AM
No idea how.
 
@Luggage Nice burn. Mad props.
 
👊
 
👊
 
You know you miss me on the days where I'm not around to go on rants and ask stupid programming questions.
 
:bump sound:
 
12:59 AM
stop fisting each other
 

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