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7:00 PM
Nevermind
 
no, it's fine... it just said that because it's your first time here
 
You were referring that Caprica was a bot
Not me
 
doesn't matter what you do / say, it's automated.. oh right yeah :)
oh man... redux cropper has like... no adoption on github
I probably couldn't get that lib past the gatekeepers
 
detecting an app being 'reponsive' is not always straightforward.
 
Github adoption should not be the end all of discussion on library adoption
Sure, open source contributions keep a library healthy, but all libraries start somewhere
 
7:02 PM
only when things are moving fast
 
Nah
 
if we're playing a long game we look harder
when we've got a desperate backlog, we use blunt instruments
 
If you're always beholden to how many people starred a repo on github, that's a bit ridiculous
 
@Shane your internal (company-written) code has 0 adoption on github, but you use it anyway
 
it's an emergency substitute for detailed thinking
 
7:03 PM
I am more willing to use an unpopular library if it's small and/or organized enough that I feel I could maintain it myself, if I had to.
 
@ssube true but it's built for the purpose
and there's institutional knowledge of how it works, etc
not the same animal
 
@Shane but it also has more bugs
 
maybe, depends on what it's for
 
no, it does
 
uhk
 
7:04 PM
your app has all the bugs of your dependencies plus some.
 
Telling someone to use a bloated and slow library when the Q has nothing to do with said library is off topic. Please refrain from posting nonsense in the future. — ndugger 14 secs ago
 
So does mine.
Why are you not using jquery? — aandis 8 hours ago
fucking people.
How do we put a stop to this?
 
I don't think you can
 
I think we need an ad during the super bowl.
 
@Luggage make jQ fall out of favor
i.e., stop hiring developers with fake degrees
 
7:06 PM
jquery is better than raw js for most people is the unfortunate reality, at least the way things are now
 
jQuery is literally Can^H^H^HTrump.
 
more documentation, so many examples and libs, it's too tempting
 
hey, I don't have a degree ><
 
@Shane i think javascript has more documentation than jquery >.>
 
7:07 PM
haha, true
 
@Shane It's not "better" for anybody; it's slow, bloated, promotes laziness, promotes ignorance, and produces spaghetti.
 
@ndugger knees weak
 
arms heavy
 
mmm, produces spaghetti..
 
what I mean is... it's a quick start where most people have no idea what they are doing and not many other libs provide that
 
7:07 PM
mom's spaghetti
 
I'm not saying it's good
 
lol
 
@Shane the docs are... incomplete at best, wrong more often. The examples don't exist and the libs don't work with recent versions.
 
@Shane That's the problem; there shouldn't be a "quick start" for people that don't know what they're doing... that's why there's so much shitty javascript.
 
I'm saying it's easy and that's why people get hooked
well sure
 
7:08 PM
@Shane ew no
 
@Shane that was true in the past.
 
I'm not saying it's ok
 
@Shane about 45 other libs provide that and people don't use them because they're shit. The main reason people still use jQ is because it was already there when they started.
 
You will always be in the (wrong) minority in this room if you try to defend the merrits of jQuery
 
es6 is easier than jQuery
 
7:09 PM
look at Meteor and Firebase, doing what jQ wanted to do and the rest of the sink
 
wat
 
look, I'm not saying how I feel about it, I'm saying what people say who don't know better
 
and jQuery is included by default in things like a new web app project in Visual Studio
 
You're defending it
 
am I?
 
7:09 PM
so this is what we are doing tonight
 
haha
 
debating jQuery
 
@bitten we can't help it.
 
:,)
 
it's the same game of hit the weasel that always happens when somebody accidentally suggests jQ
 
7:10 PM
and i wouldn't miss it for the world
 
oh great
 
then the "but it's good for compatibility!" "but for like 3 people in the world" "but examples!" "they're wrong" etc thing happens
it's a whole bit we do
 
If someone started talking about the earth being flat we'd have a similar response.
 
And then we kick the person that still thinks jQuery is good at the end of it
 
I think JQ is a mess and I'm not sticking my finger in that machine you guys built
 
7:10 PM
one day, after we're all out socializing and doing real life stuff, jQuery will die in silence
if you're the person who refuses to go out, remember: you're the one keeping jQuery alive
 
abstractions will never die, just get replaced with equally controversial abstractions
 
Speaking of which, I've got a dinner and a movie date this weekend
I should tell @BadgerCat
 
My point is the way it's perceived and advocated which sucks people up into quick wins and rapidly diminishing returns
 
You mean quick losses
 
huh?
 
7:12 PM
@Shane that doesn't happen in many places, though.
 
these people aren't building applications
 
If you're hearing that rhetoric, be careful about the people saying it.
Those are probably the same people still pushing Spring on the server-side as the latest, greatest time-saving tech.
 
they're making a little miniature slideshow that they show their youth group president
and everybody says how smart they are
there's tonnes of those people
 
Any positive perception of jQuery is relegated to for-profit colleges and old money enterprise shops.
 
I've seen a huge app built using Javascript and Jquery
NOT PRETTY
 
7:13 PM
and the contractors they hire
 
and also making quick hacks, which they have to fix a few weeks later
 
@fayzaan wat
 
@fayzaan no, it's not. Keeping track of that much stuff is hard.
 
I've seen a whole dinner made out of eggs and chicken
 
yea
thats the thing
it becomes such a mess
 
7:14 PM
betamax was better
 
and then you don't know what triggered what
 
hehe
 
@ndugger what about mom's spaghetti?
 
I could make beautiful app using jQuery or a shitty one using anything else.
 
tabs are better than emacs
 
7:14 PM
huge applications with 2+ programmers will become a mess
 
the "what triggered what" problem remains without jQuery
it's why Redux and MobX exist
 
Redux is disgusting filth
 
and knockout
 
having a central message broker is super important to anything large-scale
 
true, I guess it depends on the person
I don't like redux
the whole idea of calling actions to make changes...?
 
7:15 PM
jesus christ ndugger
 
as opposed to what?
 
same way a message queue is critical to actually scaling a serv(er|ice), having a message broker on the client is pretty important
@fayzaan that part of the abstraction is quite clean and useful
 
@ssube - agreed
strongly
 
@fayzaan that's a fine thing; has nothing to do with why redux is bad
 
lol man
 
7:16 PM
I'm almost where I want to show you @Shane :) I get an error from jQuery not able to understand destination[0]['country'] -.-
 
ignoring poorly-formed queries, most of our scaling problems come from not having a queue to handle backpressure and dispatch work on the backend, and having our views too closely bound on the front
 
you can't get past a certain size without a good queing system and some way to handle data changes
 
VM1177 jquery-2.2.4.js:1468 Uncaught Error: Syntax error, unrecognized expression: select[name=destination[0]['country']]
 
yeah, queueing/scheduling work and schemas/schema changes are the biggest scaling and maintenance problems you'll run into ever
 
a lot of the arguments made against jquery falsely blame jquery for the lack of framework provided by other tools. it simply isn't meant to fill that role.
 
7:17 PM
@JonathanLafleur Seems like you need to learn how strings work
 
@Jonathan Lafluer - what happens when you trace that string out to the console?
 
@ndugger you're probably right ;)
 
@KevinB Not once have I ever said, "jQuery needs to do more"... that's just absurd.
 
@Shane you mean console.log('select[name=' + elem + ']') ?
 
If anything, jQuery needs to do far less than it tries to do half-assedly
 
7:18 PM
11 mins ago, by ndugger
@Shane It's not "better" for anybody; it's slow, bloated, promotes laziness, promotes ignorance, and produces spaghetti.
 
take the selector you are feeding into jQuery, save it as a string and log it out
then feed that same variable into the selector
 
just go through it until the string reads out what you expect, like ndugger mentioned, you've got some errors in your string building there
 
@KevinB What about that says, "I think jQuery should do more for you and be more like X framework"? If anything, I said that it promotes laziness and ignorance by doing everything for you
and then doing it poorly, at that
 
@Shane I don't see error on the string seriously... it end up exactly how the name it's formated...
 
7:19 PM
it doesnt, but your blaming it for not fixing things it isn't meant to fix.
 
@KevinB it tries to fix them and ends up making it worse
 
^
 
hello people
 
that's fine, argue that, but that's not what was being argued.
 
jQuery's entire point of existence is to make writing code easier and more compatible, and it does it so poorly that we now have an epidemic of retardation on our hands
 
7:21 PM
@ndugger that's not jQuery's fault
 
^
 
it's expansive and over reaching, but people were already stupid
 
I disagree; From my experience there are certain libraries and frameworks that promote poor practice and laziness
 
I need some help on a function can Paste that here?
 
jQuery and Angular are the most prominent
 
7:21 PM
**Can I
 
and are the most popular
because people flock to whats easiest to pick up and use
 
and then the library tells you to do bad things
 
> jQuery: Initial release: August 26, 2006; 10 years ago
> NASCAR: Founded: February 21, 1948; 68 years ago
people were stupid before jQuery
 
LOL
 
@Boyz please don't paste code here, do a jsFiddle and if it worth a question ask it directly on StackOverflow, if need advice, build a Fiddle and we will try to help you with it :)
 
7:22 PM
ever bought a watch?
 
ask Jordan
 
I worked with devs in Visual Basic, there have and always will be terrible developers, jQuery has nothing to do with it
 
if you talk to "the watch snob", you are a pretentious idiot unless you have a budget of 20k
 
@janathan ok
 
before that people just copy/pasted scripts from hotscripts/dynamicdrive/dreamweaver
which was even worse imo
 
7:22 PM
we're hanging out in a js chatroom on stackoverflow
 
jquery was (and still is, even if it isn't needed anymore) a great tool for being able to deal with the differences between browser dom-interaction. It has never been a solution to code organization or performance.
 
@Loktar You can write bad code in any language, but some make it harder to write good code.
 
I think our opinions aren't going to represent how most people feel about js
 
You hear that @SterlingArcher? You're a pretentious idiot.
 
Really? I thought this was a porn forum for people that identify as furries
 
7:23 PM
@KevinB it's not the best tool for that. Modernizr and the other smart polyfills work much better.
 
@Kendall Frey that's exactly what I said
 
Yes. It is.
 
in this day and age I dont think jQ is necessary at all
3
 
I don't think it is either.
 
It's definitely not necessary (at least from my perspective)
 
7:25 PM
jQuery is redundant bloat that promotes poor practice. I'll not move on that stance. I work with senior devs that don't know the DOM api at all and have to look it up every time they need to actually do anything more complex than hiding a div, wheras I have most of the vanilla APIs memorized and have actually read the language specs in some places.
 
I'm just saying try getting people to not buy crack
 
> I work with senior devs that don't know the DOM api at all and have to look it up every time they need to actually do anything more complex than hiding a div
 
most people don't want the better, more expensive drugs
 
they are just sr from years
not actual experience.. tons of sr devs are shit
 
same year of experience * x
same team, same problems, same libs... doesn't matter how long
not senior
 
7:27 PM
Jan 16 '14 at 21:49, by Benjamin Gruenbaum
'I can play "Mary Had a Little Lamb" every day for 20 years but that won't make me a great pianist' :D
 
jsfiddle.net/boyz/8xc15so1 here is the fiddle I just need to simplify this code to minimum possible lines
 
@Boyz why?
 
@Luggage school assignment
 
make your code readable. let a minimizer and/or gzip worry about size
ohh.
 
7:28 PM
NOt minify
 
@Loktar i'm finding that out at the moment.. sadly
 
one line short enough?
 
@Boyz We don't help with homework on StackOverflow
 
heh
 
hahah
 
7:28 PM
people actually ask for that?
 
@rlemon no minify I need to simplify it
 
simplify it
 
@KevinB how
 
1 min ago, by ndugger
@Boyz We don't help with homework on StackOverflow
 
try naming your variables.
 
7:30 PM
@KendallFrey what?
 
@ndugger seriously
 
figure out what it does, and then do it in a simpler way.
 
@Boyz I'm dead serious, now stop asking
 
@SterlingArcher context
 
WHAT CONTEXT
 
7:30 PM
THE ONLY POSSIBLE CONTEXT
 
He is serious. We don't do homework. We MIGHT offer some advice if you can tell us what you are trying to really accomplish.
 
Oh. Watches.
 
@Boyz if it works, it works.. don't be superfluous
 
Okay thank you guys
 
Sep 19 at 20:25, by Sterling Archer
user image
 
7:32 PM
look at that watch
 
look at that shitty keyboard
 
And those stubby fingers.
 
hahah
 
oh, apparently I was serious
 
and that cheap dell keyboard
 
7:33 PM
and talking to Sterling
looks like you lost a ring last night
 
!!cry
 
@rlemon That didn't make much sense. Maybe you meant: fry
 
you got memed
 
@SterlingArcher why do you only have 1 finger?
tehee
 
Shut up cap
@bitten all he needs.
 
7:34 PM
lol
 
@rlemon ^^
 
I don't get it
 
Because you're not British
 
that helps?
 
7:36 PM
Yes
 
@towc me neither
 
flashlight = torch
 
i even asked my girlfriend
 
not sure what google translate is to matches
 
-_-
 
7:37 PM
ohhhhhh
nvm
 
It not needing google translate is part of the joke, I think
 
"you think"?
 
is it because he has a torch on his phone? like i really don't get it
 
Overall, I give it a 4/8 dankness
@bitten in England, they call flashlights a "torch"
 
@ndugger but i am British
 
7:38 PM
then you're just dumb
 
i just don't live there
 
then you aren't actually British
you're just TV British
 
In JS are stack and array same thing?
 
@ssube pls no
 
@Boyz JS' "array" is actually a vector and any other list-like collection can be implemented with a vector, so indirectly yes.
 
7:40 PM
@Boyz depends on whether or not you are calling an array a stack..
 
I need to do research on it. ty
 
anybody know of any LESS to SASS converters? Don't have to be perfect, just get the bulk of it
 
I know
Gulp-sass
you can install it through npm
 
@SterlingArcher did you ever have dates/meet people from online dating? You know how most of the time, they're a good bit more attractive in their photos than when you meet them face to face? Well my date was the other way around; she was more attractive in person than in her photos.
 
@Boyz that outputs LESS with which options?
 
7:43 PM
I always compile my sass to less
 
scss > sass > less > css
 
@ndugger well, you do, because LESS is a superset of CSS
 
gulp-sass is for sass. I have no idea of LESS
 
back... got up for a sec
 
scss is extenstion of sass
 
7:44 PM
I've been using less, but I'm getting pressure to switch to SASS, plus bootstrap 4 got all opinionated
 
ew
 
here we go...
 
bootstrap is another one of those...
 
what am I doing wrong d... oh... got it
 
you're existing
 
7:45 PM
cheers
 
that's what's wrong with people these days
too many people trying to get shit done
 
one of these days I'm going to mess it up, so some small comfort there
 
bootstrap is alright
 
lamest ... flag ... ever
 
don't worry ^^
 
7:45 PM
what was flagged?
 
Ha
 
haha
wasn't me!
who did that?
 
the flag fairy
 
what's wrong with bootstrap @ndugger?
 
7:46 PM
nobody knows, except devs
 
are flags anonymous?
 
@ndugger but did you get your $1?
 
@Shane yes
 
We get flag-aids in here from time to time when the flag fairy spreads its legs
 
@bitten it offends his delicate sensibilities
 
7:47 PM
all your other rants have had fair criticisms
 
she's a bit of a slut
 
the biggest problem with bootstrap is it isn't YUI
 
@ssube can't admins like check the IP from which the flags were sent to see if someone is flooding with flags?
 
@ssube he's a softy :3
 
not to shame or anything
 
7:47 PM
@towc mods can see active flaggers, once it is dismissed nope
staff can see it in the db
 
@bitten well, when you don't test anything or have build scripts, you have to be scared of anything that might break your legacy code
 
@bitten Honestly, my hatred for bootstrap is just personal preference; I have no real criticism for it
 
but that is a lot more work
 
@ndugger I do find it lacking a lot of times, can't think of examples off the of my head though
just remember being frustrated with some basic concept being unnecessarily wonky
 
you can always just add what you are missing
 
7:49 PM
@ssube and that's what is happening with bootstrap?
 
(C#) I need class structure/pattern advice, does anyone know where I could go to obtain such...?
 
bootstrap is like jquery for CSS, but not quite useless, YET.
 
it was too pervasive, wish I could remember what it was
 
@bitten oh, I don't actually know what he'll come up with this time
 
something to do with the grids and pull-right or something like that
 
7:49 PM
@Chef_Code possibly the c# room.
 
I don't like the styles, the ugly class names (I think they use BEM?), and the over adoption for projects that have no business using it... lazy turds
 
@Luggage it's well-written, which is the only real difference
 
@Shane the point is that it's a good default, you can edit quite a fair bit if it with their configurator
 
yea, i'm not a bootstrap hater.
 
yeah, I use it all the time
 
7:50 PM
jQuery is put together wrong, like the chef from Metalocalypse s01e01
Bootstrap is just ugly
 
yes
 
@ssube and i guess we'll never know
@ndugger i'm not even sure it follows bem, or it didn't feel like it
 
@Luggage Kind of a newb here, where would I find that?
 
I haven't written anything without it in a long time I don't think
 
@bitten I could be mistaken; either way, their class names are cancer
 
7:51 PM
just watch out for bootstrap-itis like google's material design
@ndugger that's true
 
@Chef_Code go to chat.stackoverflow.com but instead of clicking "javascript", click "c#"
 
@bitten except material design is actually based on UX guidelines
 
haven't used material, any opinions on that?
 
where bootstrap just exists to be a standard theme
 
looks generally good
 
7:51 PM
@Luggage thank you
 
It's like when people abbreviate "string" to "str"... just write out the rest of the word, god dammit
 
@Shane you either hate the look of it or you've read UX rules and use it, mostly
 
@ndugger - disagree... horizontal space is valuable
 
@Shane Readability is more important than how many columns you have
 
my time is more valuable.
 
7:52 PM
@ssube - I like it's strictness I think
 
@Shane your mom must be worth a fortune
2
 
BURN
 
@ssube that's nice about it, it works well and is sensible, it's just that every website / app ends up looking the same, and not the layout i mean with the colours
 
now son...
 
@ndugger "ing" rarely adds value
 
7:52 PM
you shouldn't talk about your grandmother like that
 
@ssube Naming a variable "string" is terrible, but in cases where you abbreviate words by taking off a couple of letters just makes things far less readable when you're trying to read into code that you didn't write
 
when you're looking at types, str and num are equally clear to string and number
the problem is when you use them as names in an ambiguous context, like myBtn3
 
I disagree, therefore you're wrong
 
you disacree?
 
7:54 PM
Did you just have a stroke?
 
@KendallFrey doing a mom joke?
 
not yet... keep talking
 
lol
 
you get what you deserve xD
 
@Neoares But unlike everyone else, I wait for a good opportunity
 
7:54 PM
gtg... circus is about to start
kids home in 5
 
@KendallFrey i did it with your...
well nvm
 
Circuses are cruel to animals
You should use jQuery instead
2
 
I don't even found it funny
@Shane lul
 
that's cruel on humans
 
glad I'm not a human
 
7:56 PM
@copy you're on HN again news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12581427
 
Badger sent me a snap of copy swearing trying to play "I wanna be the copy"
 
wtf
 
@BadgerCat tell copy ^ * 3
 
@Shane stop dissing my people
jerk
 
> BMW was forced to recall a female voiced navigation system on its 5 Series cars in the late 1990s after being flooded with calls from German men saying they refused to take directions from a woman.
 
7:58 PM
sauce? ^
 
internets
 
meh
 
@KendallFrey spending 24 hours with Elon Musk sounds like fun
 
@Neoares step one, highlight the quote. step two, right click. step three, search google for "..."
 
I'm too lazy to type in "german complain female navigaion bmw"
 
7:59 PM
@ndugger step one, highlight the quote. step two, right click. step three, search google for "..."
 

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