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4:00 PM
jade has nice interpolation that is cleaner i think
 
@Luggage mixing the markup and the code still feels weird
 
even if they just changed it to be contained in a heredoc sort of thing, it would be better
 
mixins are usable, in fact i prefer them
 
it does, but you wnd up with jade or ejs or whatever templates with loops and conditionals
 
4:00 PM
@ssube why?
 
the only thing about jade is that it requires compilation
but if you use JSX you have to compile that as well
 
seems pretty dumb to abstract it further so you "feel good"
 
so only the same loops and conditionals you'd have in a template should be in a render method
 
> Hey guys here is a seperate file so you have good feels again
 
@dopatraman mixins tend to become confusing on larger apps, since they're usually global
@Loktar the syntax is so different, it's hard to read through at a glance
having it in another file is often overkill, but having some delimiters would be nice
 
4:01 PM
@ssube true
if there was one thing id like in jade its proper namespacing
 
@ssube there are delimiters <>
 
@Loktar but there a bunch of those in the template
 
but that being said you can put mixins in jade include blocks
 
something like the new template strings would be great
 
and namespace them that way
 
4:02 PM
jsx`<div foo>{bars}</div>`
 
yuck
 
or a traditional heredoc
 
that makes it more complex imo (using a template string approach)
idk I'm just used to it now
 
```
<div foo>
  {bars}
</div>
```
it's not code and having it inline like that is messy
plus it fucks up other tools that could be able to handle a template string
 
it being messy is purely subjective
 
4:04 PM
having the templates in the same file is fine, I either do that or import them right away so they seem like they are
 
true react can interpolate lists
jade needs a for statement
 
@dopatraman its just JS though
 
throwing two languages together with no separator/delimiter is a bad idea
 
@ssube seems to be working out so far.
only hurdle are people who cant get passed something so simple :p
 
4:05 PM
right becuase most js devs will do whats in fashion
 
> But I've always done it this way!
 
wut
 
while there is value in new stuff, conventional wisdom is occasionally around for a reason
mixing languages without telling anyone falls on that side, imo
what happens if you have a JS script in your JSX template?
 
whatd be nice is something like html components
 
so react with external templates.. that might make some people happy
 
4:06 PM
@ssube what do you mean?
 
even polymer was a good step
 
what happens if you have a JSX template in your JS script in your JSX template?
 
you can have JS in JSX
the jsx.. is just a js file
 
FYI, babel supports JSX out of the box, no options even need be specified.
 
@dopatraman everything is becoming component based it seems which I also think is great
only reason we have jsx is for the virtual dom
yeah exactly with babel there is nothing else required, its great.
 
4:07 PM
let fooTemplate = {
  return <head><script>let barTemplate = {
    return <head><script>let bazTemplate = {
      return <div />
    }</script></head>
  }</script></head>
}
you can (and probably should) work around it, but still
 
so something iv been researching is this, id love to get some feedback: declaring user interactivity in the dom itself, so the only js you need are function declarations
 
why support anything like that when you can have the template in its own file or otherwise isolated?
 
@ssube you havent used react ever have you?
You can't do that.
 
the code and template are two fairly different things, so mixing them is weird
@Loktar that was my question
plus, how do you change templates for internationalization?
 
I assumed you had used react and just disliked it
 
4:09 PM
return <script dangerouslySetInnerHtml={'let x = ...;'}> maybe..
 
so something like:
```
<div onevent="myComponent:fireEvent()"></div>
```

and then in a separate file you have:
```
myComponent = {
    fireEvent: function(){}
}
```
 
@dopatraman Please don't post unformatted code - hit Ctrl+K before sending, use up-arrow to edit messages, and see the faq. For posting large code blocks, use a paste site like gist.github.com, hastebin.com or pastie.org
 
@Loktar I toyed with it, but haven't used it yet, because it can't address a bunch of the stuff we need.
 
@dopatraman that's like the react way.
 
nope, logic is separated
 
4:10 PM
Simple stuff like having template sets for l10n
 
the dom is purely declarative
 
you still separate your code th way you want.. i mean using attributes to register events.
 
Until they've actually thought through the basics, it's clever, but not really something I can use at work.
Like, right now, our templates get compiled to JS and included in the bundle(s), then pulled in depending on language.
Since German will break whatever layout you're using, guaranteed.
 
@ssube iit would be more like this
let bazTemplate = <div></div>,
	barTemplate = <SomeElement>{bazTemplate}</SomeElement>,
	fooTemplate = <head><script>{barTemplate}</script></head>;

    return fooTemplate;
 
@Luggage using attributes to register events is how vanilla js-dom works anyway...
 
4:12 PM
but only in the render method of the component
 
ohh, trying to compose..
 
actually hell thats even bad, I could do it better
 
@dopatraman using attributes for events is, perhaps, the worst thing in the JS/DOM APIs
 
meh.
 
let bazTemplate = <div></div>,
	barTemplate = <SomeElement>{bazTemplate}</SomeElement>;

    return head><script>{barTemplate}</sript></head>;
more like that.
 
4:13 PM
how does React's precompiler compare to Handlebars'?
 
1. i disagree
2. why?
 
but anyway I was skeptical as well but after using it for almost a year its great imo
I never want to go back.
 
we have some problems with rendering being a bottleneck, partially because of poor DOM caching, but also rendering actually is here and there
and that's with the very simple HBS templates compiled into JS ahead of time
 
@ssube
 
if rendering is your bottleneck react sounds like the perfect tool..
 
4:14 PM
yea, those can re-render portionsof th epage whic may be the problem
 
the poor localization and complex templates are not good selling points for react
 
or any virtual dom solution
 
iv found that using the DOM as first stop for ui declarations is the cleanest thing
 
templates with React are not complex at all lol
 
where react will figure out "you just gave my this big block of DOM, but it's only a little different, i'll just make the changes needed"
 
4:15 PM
@Loktar compared to handlebars, they are
handlebars does variable replacement and occasionally, if you really need to, truthy if and foreach loops
 
id much rather look at jsx than markup filled with {{}} ng-yays all day
 
plus HBS and JSX look almost identical
 
it gets so ugly in templates when looping, ect. imo
 
angular is awful, I think most of us have come to that realization by now
5
 
yea.. templates start out nice, but then when they get complex they get ugly
 
4:17 PM
@Loktar handlebars templates are pretty much the same syntax as react
they just aren't written inline without delimiters. You can put em in a string or another file.
 
eh I don't like dealing with markup as a string
 
me neither. The only problem I have with hbs is storing templates.
 
I like react yelling at me if something isn't closed, or I'm using some custom component that doesn't exist
 
which a heredoc syntax would solve real quick
 
4:18 PM
also man.. the whole custom component thing with react is so damn great
well custom components in general
 
Yeah?
 
react is just the best (most widely supported) way to do it currently
 
if react's templates were a little bit simpler (didn't even allow any logic) and had some kind of start/end tag, they would be great
 
I've heard a fair bit of praise for React
 
4:19 PM
@SomeGuy haven't you heard it for the IITs too? ;-P
 
@ssube I had 2 .net devs come onto a project and pickup react in less than week
its really dead simple
 
@Loktar that's not exactly a good thing :P
.net devs are used to weird mixed up shit
 
@ssube I beg to differ
 
@AwalGarg What?
 
The things you'd separate into "view" vs "component" you jsut separate into two components in react
 
4:19 PM
whats with all the IIT hate
lol
 
you still separate data access from layout like you always should
 
^
 
@SomeGuy the praise -_-
 
I'm not arguing with 90% of React, just the fact they don't separate template from the code at all
 
@AwalGarg Oh, haha. Sorry, I'm a bit zonked
 
4:20 PM
js is your template language.
 
Sleep deprivation does that
 
@ssube you're saying that as an outsider though who hasn't tried it
 
@Loktar I have tried it.
 
you gotta keep trying until you like it
3
 
lmao
 
4:21 PM
^ exactly lol
 
@Luggage just like cyanide and butt stuff?
 
@Luggage quick, edit it to add context (react)
 
@ssube idk man
 
@Luggage Stockholm Syndrome?
 
You're gonna sit there and not get up until you've smoked that whole pack of React,.
 
4:21 PM
if they were to replace this:
 
the example you posted showed you've used react for an hour tops.
 
return <div id="team"><div className="row">
    {teamMembers}
 <div></div>;
 
you lack really basic understanding of it
yet criticize it for doing things the way it does.
 
@Loktar that was a question about something I had no reason to try, not an example
 
my react code is my first react mini-porject, btw
 
4:22 PM
that's why it made no sense.
 
if you knew react at all you would know that would error
 
it should not be taken as best practice-laden
 
That's not something you should ever do, so I figured it wouldn't be allowed, I just never tried it because of exactly that.
 
it makes sense, though. I want to display 3 similar thigns, so i just make a function
 
@Loktar Help me out with this. I'm trying to write a userscript for some behemoth of a website using React. How do I figure out what function is bound to an event listener on some element?
 
4:23 PM
But, back to what I would like better, replacing the above with:
 
that how you'd do a mixin since there is no separate template language
 
return jsx:
  <div id="team"><div className="row">
    {teamMembers}
 <div></div>;
 
@SomeGuy for facebook? :P
 
would be enough
 
Install the react dev tools
 
4:23 PM
just something to delimit the templates
 
yea, i have no problem with that..
 
@Loktar WhatsApp Web
 
Oh, neat
 
the new dev tools are pretty damn awesome
 
4:23 PM
oh wait. userscript
 
quick and dirty userscript for code highlighting in chat: gist.githubusercontent.com/HorizonShadow/6bd39780bd809e885389/…
 
congrats on deciding to write a userscript maybe :/
 
@AwalGarg Haha, no!
I'm trying to write a userscript :P
 
the fact that templates are just slapped in the middle of the code is what I have a problem with, and trying React just made me like that less
 
@ssube there are still best practices and good conventions to use
everything is in the render
 
4:25 PM
@Cereal ALWAYS! end your userscript name with .user.js
 
@Loktar we break down the render methods, usually
 
sub components
 
^
 
@AwalGarg the gist just asked me for a file name, I just entered something random o.o
 
thats the thing, you break down your component structure
 
4:26 PM
some of your components may be JUST a render(). no other logic. That is fine.
 
you should never have a large template in a component
 
if you do its most likely getting too specific
 
just created an HTML imports polyfill using iframes... yuck, but it works.
 
then you end up with a ton of components in memory
 
4:26 PM
omg
all your handlebars functiosn are in memory, just the same
 
Btw, here's your reminder, @Loktar: make a game for JS13k!
 
how many components would you use for a static (not interactive) table?
 
I'm going to start work on mine this weekend, hopefully
 
@SomeGuy I've been thinking about it every day
@ssube I use like 3 for a custom one I made
 
Yeah?
 
4:27 PM
maybe 2
 
You already had an idea in mind, didn't you?
 
1-100.. i don't know.
 
it really just depends
 
@Luggage I have three templates (frame, head, row) and render the frame once, head once, row N times. From a single view/component.
 
@Cereal use the predawn theme please :-( (also pretty nice)
 
4:28 PM
I have a component for the columns where you supply the column properties, and a column for the actual rendering of the table
 
When somebody wants to show a few thousand records, that becomes important.
 
@AwalGarg Change the css link in the script
 
but you can specify components for teh columns as well if you want
 
(I have no idea if predawn is an option) (it's not)
 
@ssube thats where react shines.
 
4:29 PM
render() {
    let rows = [
        <row prop="bob" />
    ];

    return <frame blah="blah">
        <head />
        {rows}
        <foot />
    <frame>;
}
 
I'm talking like spreadsheet size tables (which we actually have) where an object per cell will run you out of memory.
 
@Cereal :((
 
@ssube why have all that in memory? Let react handle it. wrap it with a component that only ever shows 100, and just pops/shifts rows as it scrolls
 
<frame> may be defined as a <table>
 
even w/o doing that react handles that much data well.
 
4:29 PM
<row> -> <tr>, etc.
 
@Loktar tried something along those lines, was too slow
 
yea, just specify a key on each row so react an mutate the DOM efficiently
 
@ssube the thing with react is its smart enough to know to only update textContent if it needs to.
 
otherwise it may need to re-render the whole table
 
it doesnt remove a full td and replace it
 
4:30 PM
UP TO the whole table
 
it will just update the textContent if need be.
 
@AwalGarg highlightjs.org/static/demo list of themes on the left
 
How do people usually update the DOM with time? Eg, you have a schedule, and something is scheduled for right now, but if you don't activate it, the dom will move everything forward over time
 
@Cereal how to copy url from there other than looking into devtools? you slow. found it from devtools
 
Guys, I'm in Oxford :D
School starts tomorrow
wifi is good XD
 
what is Oxford?
 
@Loktar meh, I'm just still salty that for all the hype, React didn't provide enough improvement to get us off Backbone, so I'm still stuck using that occasionally
 
@ssube that sucks man :/
 
@towc congrats! same question as JoJo though :-P
 
it was enough for us to now use it here
also ditched angular
I'm a fanboy.
until some other awesome custom component solution comes along
 
4:34 PM
Oxford, England?
 
I could probably use it for the build tools and stuff, but
 
@corvid I've heard you grow crows? I actually have a few questions if you have some time. Point is, I'd like to grow one from the egg, do you happen to know the steps for growing one from "scratch"? Did you ever try that
Yeah, Oxford in england
cmon guys, I thought everyone knew about it XD
 
until they actually figure out templates, it's not something we can use for the main site
 
it's like the best city for students in europe :P
 
> Oxford, in central southern England, revolves around its prestigious university, established in the 12th century
 
4:35 PM
@towc You just need to give them cigs, they'll come right to your windowsill
 
literally revolves.
 
@ssube I find that so weird, considering Facebook is one of the top sites in the world and uses it lol
 
@towc so... you are in the oxford university or a school in the oxford city?
 
but Ill stop picking on you about it
was a good discussion regardless
 
@Loktar they also use PHP
they do some weird shit
and just suffer through it
 
4:36 PM
@AwalGarg I'm actually attending the european school of culham, which is pretty much in oxford. Highschool
 
@towc oh great, good luck!
 
a bunch of people got pissed about the lack of documentation for ES6 when we introduced that
since, yknow, you can't generate jsdoc for it
 
I don't think I'll need much, other than for my crazy-weird accent XD
 
fuck'em.
 
but thanks
 
4:37 PM
how big is your team @ssube?
 
throwing in yet another brand new, one off language wouldn't work
 
@corvid no like, seriously :P
 
I'm fortunate here as its just me and @Jhoopins right now (on the UI side)
 
@Loktar ooh, lemme grab the stats from the slides I showed mgmt a few days ago
 
we have other devs but they are backend
 
4:38 PM
@ssube's team:
 
we have maybe 25-30 devs total
 
You can't tame crows, they don't learn. Take me as example!
 
but what I(we) say goes on the UI :p
 
as of the 17th, I had 151 people across 13 departments using gitlab, with 331 repos. TC (CI server) had 146 users, 82 had been active in the last week.
 
google's new logo looks a bit weird to me
 
4:38 PM
@corvid no, really. I thought you could...
 
We had 452 build configurations with 178 repos attached to them, 36117 commits in the last month (going through 1314 merge requests and 11637 comments in gitlab)
 
151 - 82 people need fired, then.
 
62739 builds, producing 29894 RPMs (3331 in July, alone)
 
-2
Q: How can I register a new JSON parser at json.org?

PaebbelsI wrote a json parser in vhdl. Its possible to load an *.json file from disk and query the internal data structure for elements and values. The internal data structure is a compressed version of the read file content plus an efficient index to navigate in the structure. The JSON VHDL package can...

 
and I'm not even talking about taming them. I'd grow them from their eggs, they wouldn't even have another crow to take as an example
 
4:39 PM
in the last 30-36 months, 1996254 builds all told, and our artifact server (Nexus) has served 5002870 requests since March 23
 
Man, steam is struggling today
 
@Loktar tl;dr: we have 150+ people with 300+ repos running 60k builds/month and the build tools serve 1.5-2 million pageviews/month
 
@rlemon I believe, the obvious answer is to mail doug crockford
 
@towc I used to raise budgies. They are kinda like crows.
 
@ssube I have me.
 
4:40 PM
so
 
I install what i want on the linux server, choose my tools, do whatever the fuck i want
 
managing the CI stuff is fun
 
as long as the users get a pretty app
 
@rlemon apparently not. From what I've read and heard budgies to crows are like me to Jon Skeet
 
I quit my day job where i managed 6 developers at Xerox.
 
4:41 PM
@Luggage I can install what I want by changing the Puppet scripts we use to provision the 18 builds agents...
 
now it's just me, my laptop and a bar.
 
@towc you both require food and water and shelter to live.
 
@rlemon pretty much
 
I've been wnting to get into puppet or chef or something
 
In the context of raising a bird, that is practically the same.
 
4:42 PM
also crows can't really live in a cage and stay calm
I'd like to have them as a dog
I've heard it's possible
 
You cage them but leave it open.
 
so I just make them a bird house ;)
 
@towc why not learn to college good first, then start doing pets?
 
So they sleep there, and if your lucky shit there.
 
you might not have enough time to manage crows between all the liquor and women
 
4:43 PM
if he's lucky, college will involve at least heavy petting.
 
@ssube crows start their business in the spring, I have loads of time ;)
 
user1596138
I should have the gold badge for getting banned from chat
 
@towc spring is prime party season here
 
@ssube you do remember that I do IT, right? XD
 
user1596138
waits for that to get flagged
 
4:44 PM
@towc yeah...?
 
@Jhoopins of course it's not a badge you're intent on actively working towards I hope?
 
so girls will be for later in life when I got the money ;)
And here alcohol policy is extremely strict
 
@JonClements in fairness. His last ban was spite flagging.
 
not later, NOW!
girls are for now. later is for regretting the lack of girls
 
@rlemon a few dozen people spite flagged it?
 
4:45 PM
@Luggage that's certainly conforting
 
Out of context.
 
So errr... @rlemon I've been about... if that's the case - you could have mod flagged it
 
that flag got votes as quickly as anything from the c++ room
 
I didn't actually notice if they were validated.
 
which is worth is a badge
 
4:46 PM
Last I looked it was 4 flags
 
I thought it was for using f** in derogatory manner.
 
it hit a dozen or so before I got bored
 
Okay well... someone could have mod flagged and explained... otherwise, people go to other rooms, and end up getting lengthier bans coughs
 
user1596138
@JonClements Nope.
 
@Luggage which is not a thing you should do, really
 
user1596138
4:47 PM
Yeah, tbh guys why can't one of you mod flag for me when there's flag abuse? I have been in this situation too many times...
 
Tldr, people were talking him a Hick, he said he's not one of those fags who goes mudding to get dirty, someone flagged because he used the word fag. MUCH worse is said here, and he wasn't targeting someone specific.
 
True. (to ssube)
 
user1596138
You can't even mod flag when you are suspended. So I couldn't
 
@rlemon calling folks fags is a little bit different from saying apple is a shit company, though
 
Sorry on mobile. Talking =calling
 
user1596138
4:48 PM
@ssube Has the word fag in it. Needs flagged
 
I think the flags were legit, but it's over with and we welcome him back
 
user1596138
/me is done after that one
 
@ssube sure, but if I called all ICP fans losers no one would have flagged me.
Ever if I did use a stronger term
 
user1596138
@ssube it's usually you anyway isn't it?
 
@Jhoopins no?
 
user1596138
4:48 PM
Funny how whichever one of you regulars it is hides behind it.
 
WELCOME BACK EVVERYONE!!
 
to be fair, ICP fans are losers
 
ICP fandom is a choice, though :)
 
user1596138
It wasn't a newcomer.
 
4:49 PM
did I miss some drama? REPLAY!
 
Maybe he was calling them cigarettes.
 
I do agree with the flags, but I very very rarely flag
 
over sensitive political correctness.
you have to expect that being in a tech chat
the perpetually offended seem to love tech (or at least pretend) so it makes sense.
 
@AwalGarg jhawins used 'fag' in a derogatory, way but not directly AT anyone. was flagged, is back. That's it. That's the story.
 
how very interesting
 
4:50 PM
I don't think it's overly sensitive. The word is used in almost always negative ways, jsut like n*****r
 
and now he wants a badge :P
 
@Luggage case in point
 
If anyone's getting chat badges it is me.
 
yeah, racial/sexist slurs get pretty consistently flagged
 
@rlemon you need one
 
4:50 PM
general profanity, nah, that's stupid
 
@ssube unless people are joking and make homophobic remarks at eachother
 
because those are "funny"
 
Woohoo!
 
there are a couple chat badges, right?
 
4:51 PM
@rlemon okay... as long is all cool... I'll be around for a bit anyway... so yell if needs be
 
@Loktar stay away from my butt
 
@Kendall yeah.... just talkative and outspoken
 
@Loktar that's just j and sterling making homosexual remarks, but it's cool, cause they're married
 
or joke about people being pedophiles because thats hilarious as well right?
 
Jon Clements, can I have the badge for not pinging you at all. At all.
 
4:52 PM
@Loktar to be precise, the jokes are
 
definitely seen flags about people calling each other pedos
 
although Chris Hansen does yield some chuckles
 
user1596138
Jun 17 at 12:23, by Florian Margaine
@afonsomatos payday is fag in french
 
@JonClements @Jhoopins is a regular. I just think someone got rubbed the wrong way. There was no abuse
 
user1596138
^ what now.
 
user1596138
4:53 PM
Thanks @rlemon
 
!!afk driving
 
user1596138
I'm a regular of >3 years haha. ~55K messages here.
 
@rlemon I don't believe there was... looked like the usual room stuff to me... see ya laters all
 
see ya
 
<waits for the cops to leave>
 
4:54 PM
see ya jon :( I don't get the badge then, nvm
 
@Luggage keep your hands out of sight until they're gone, and give it a few minutes
they can hear bottles from a mile away
 
@ssube Keeping hands "out of sight" doesn't look suspicious at all
 
@Luggage plot twist: the cops are cosplayers wearing lingerie underneath their uniforms. things are getting hot.
 
user1596138
When is the room meeting
 
@ivarni sh
 
user1596138
4:55 PM
If we have dropped room meetings someone voice it so it can be pinned
 
@ssube citation-needed
 
user1596138
If we're still having them schedule it, who's the next host?
 
And there was me thinking I was the "cool" local area cop @rlemon... my propaganda machine isn't working hard enough! :)
 
I think something went wrong in the moderator handoff, and no one ended up continuing it
 
Sounds like you have a topic in mind, Hoopty.
 
4:56 PM
@JonClements ahahaha
 
@KendallFrey you ran the last one I remember
 
I remember Mosho did after I did
 
Hello.. Any NetBeans user here?
 
I think the last one is when I was gone
 
yes this is the java room after all
 
user1596138
4:57 PM
I jsut want to ask why I never recovered in status here. I spent months here and was very constructive, helped many users and stopped bitching at people like before. Where is my RO? I am like the 6th most active user to use this room.
 
Java<ScriptBall-Pit>
 
I think it was @Zirak who hosted it last
 
@Luggage precisely
 
@Loktar now that we've listed the 3 least reliable ROs... :P
 
@Jhoopins there jsut haven't been meeting and room owners in a while.
 
user1596138
4:58 PM
Ever since that fad gangup on jhawins week where Florian removed me things have been hostile haha.
 
where's my RO status guys?
 
yeah we should have some RO votes for sure
 
@ʞɔᴉN you're upside down, no RO for you
 
I do think RO status is awarded to those who ask for it the most though
 
user1596138
Likje I know I just got chat banned but it was totally uncalled for.
 
4:58 PM
ohh wait.. no.. the other way.
 
@Nick @Jhoopins are two who should be considered.
imo anyway.
 
yes I agree
 
where's Luggage's RO status guys? Not that I care but he should be RO.
 
there are probably people that could fall off I imagine as well.
 
@ʞɔᴉN and @Nick RO buddies 4 lyfe
I don't want RO
 
user1596138
4:59 PM
@Luggage Have I asked? I've waited long enough to be reinstated. I was RO for over a year, caused problems and got removed justly.
 
@Nick too bad.
:P
 
:(
 
@Nick we could take shifts
 
just fucking with you. I don't hear anything negative about you I don't thing you have any 'low status'.
 
I want to save a function in this format: `function( withSpace )`
But every time I format my code with my NeBeans, the spaces between the arg are deleted. Anyone who know how to set not to delete the spaces?
 

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