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6:01 PM
I use PHP for all my web projects because it's very flexible and I can buy a cheap hosting that will support it, and I can sustain it for less than 5 bucks per month.
 
With JS being an interpreted language, how is it faster?
 
most/all modern js engines pre-compile.
to varying degrees
 
Google threw some money at it and made it fast
 
@StevensHaen it's not interpreted
 
user406009
@Catgocat One counterargument is that VPS have now become cheap enough (5$/month digitalocean) such that the cost between PHP and whatever is minimal.
 
6:03 PM
@StevensHaen The V8 "intreperter" compiles to native code internally.
For example Rhino compiles to Java
 
I see
 
user406009
JS's speed is more due to the vast amounts of resources dedicated to the problem than any part of the language itself.
 
@RyanKinal confirmed: New Brunswick is made up
 
user406009
Similarly, Facebook has also invested immense resources into making PHP fast.
 
JavaScript is slower because it has Java in the beggining
 
6:05 PM
LOL
 
user406009
Java is actually one of the fastest non-native languages out there.
 
Knock Knock - "Who's there?"
< Long pause... >
"Java"
 
user406009
Yeah start up times aren't a strong point, but the throughput is very good (at least last I checked the benchmarks).
 
c# can be quite fast, too, with the same startup time caveat
which is solvable with ngen, mostly.
 
@Lalaland as long as you're not counting the GC times, which most benchmarks exp.licitly don't
 
user406009
6:08 PM
@JanDvorak I would argue that't more of a latency issue. Which can be detrimental in certain cases (real time systems for example).
 
user406009
Doesn't Javascript have similar GC pause issues?
 
@Lalaland have you observed any?
 
if you ignore GC, Java is pretty damn fast
 
One downside of java is that the runtime environment is packaged with crapware
 
user406009
@JanDvorak No, but I don't tend to program things where that might show up(without there being a memory leak bug). Either in Java or JavaScript.
 
6:11 PM
@rlemon if you don't taunt GC, it can be as well
unfortunately, they teach you to new everywhere you possibly can
@JanDvorak is it? openjdk seems pretty clean to me. Bunch of deps on X-server and font libs that you strictly need, but otherwise good.
 
@JanDvorak omg this, fucking IE toolbars and shit
 
user406009
@ssube He's talking about the ask toolbar. Which does suck and reflects very poorly on Java.
 
@ssube look at the official (Oracle's) installer
 
that crapware is like at free downloads: it's about money
 
user406009
But everyone already knows that Oracle is an evil company.
 
oh, it's been a long time since I installed Java on a windows machine
 
That billboard is actually on my morning commute
My reaction:
.@codinghorror "99.5% of coding applicants can't code" @toptalllc "We only hire the top 3%" So 5/6ths of toptal coders can't?
 
Isn't chrome blocking Java soon?
 
Java is blocking Java already
 
so true
 
@Retsam That too
 
@rlemon I KNEW IT
 
Should I bother learning advanced PHP at all?
Or just go all-in on front end
 
ditch PHP
 
6:25 PM
if you don't already have a php codebse you need to support, I see no reason to learn it.
 
Don't bother with PHP and certainly don't "go all-in on front end"
Both are awful ideas.
 
"advanced PHP" is a thing?
 
Learn front-end and some responsible backend tech.
 
You guys are radical. I just hope you're right as well.
 
Java EE, whatever the latest .Net framework is, that sort of thing.
 
6:26 PM
once you have a few languages under your belt, learning new ones is no issue
 
I'd stay away from Java EE.
 
so, if you encounter php in the fure, you'll be able to cope
 
but that's because I have to maintain a giant tangled mess of Struts.
 
@ShotgunNinja if you want a job, you should know it
 
but not many are writing NEW software with it
 
user406009
6:26 PM
@StevensHaen Nowadays there is little reason to learn PHP when there are better alternatives. Python or javasript are good alternatives if you want dynamic typing. C# or Java are good if you want static typing.
 
Is there anything that PHP is better at than Java EE/JS?
 
That sort of thing doesn't exist in PHP. You just throw more iron at it.
 
Java EE != Struts
@StevensHaen writing a page in 30 seconds?
 
user406009
@StevensHaen Somewhat better infrastructure. Apache has really good integration with PHP for easy setup.
 
Hiding errors
 
6:27 PM
oh, I know Java EE enough to get by from stuff in school. It helped me pick up Struts when I got my current job.
 
except then it takes 6 hours to get Apache bound to it
 
increasing suicide rates
 
Apache + PHP is god awful
there are so many different opinions on how it should be set up
 
Nginx + PHP-FPM if you absolutely have to
 
CGI scripts or persisting loaders?
 
6:27 PM
The L in LAMP is the only part of that I like.
 
PHP is ridiculously easy to learn though. Is there an easier web language?
I'd be interested to know...
 
all our dev tools here are linux + nginx + postgresql + (node|java)
 
LOLCODE
 
LNNP Linux, Nginx, Node, Postgres
 
although I guess gitlab is ruby, so bleh
 
user406009
6:28 PM
@Sidd Look into Python or Javascript.
 
LNPN or LNPJ
 
PHP is easy to learn, but it's not really an example of a strong language that can be used to learn good practices in others.
 
@Sidd C++/CLI
 
What about all the CMS (Drupal, SilverStripe) that are made in PHP? What if my job requires me to work with them.
 
@Lalaland python isn't really intended for web stuff. Too single-threaded.
@StevensHaen don't.
Those are pretty specialized jobs anyone.
 
6:29 PM
@ssube Which CMS to go for then?
 
There are async python libraries out there for writing node-style.
 
C++ as a web language? How does that work?
 
You wouldn't get a job doing salesforce unless you'd wasted your life learning salesforce.
 
@Sidd Facebook compiles PHP down to C++, I believe
 
You replace PHP or Python with C++
 
6:29 PM
@StevensHaen don't use a cms?
 
Done
 
so much FUD in this discussion
 
@Sidd stdio
 
user406009
Jan is either crazy or sarcastic. C++ is crazy for starting web development.
 
@ssube How do you make a blog without a CMS?
 
6:29 PM
@Sidd just like normal. All web servers are written in C++.
 
@ShotgunNinja no
@Lalaland no
 
@StevensHaen same way github handles pages
 
@Luggage yes but not reasonable
 
Yeah FB has Hack n stuff, which is slightly faster, but if its about speed the latest PHP is not that bad, comparatively.
 
C it self is great for webdevelopment, it's as easy as C M S
 
6:30 PM
@ssube no
 
you can take markdown files, feed them into an html template with a tool like gulp, and publish the "blog" as a set of static pages.
 
@ssube lol
@ssube lol
@BenFortune no
 
see the problem with static sites is, i mean, what about search? what about cross referencing like tags etc?
 
like jekyl?
 
where does the database sync come in?
 
6:31 PM
can you compile TeX to HTML?
 
@Sidd a number of them actually support that, using precomputed indexes
which are super performant
I think doxygen has something along those lines
 
@JanDvorak of course
 
should you compile TeX to HTML?
 
@JanDvorak depends on your needs, I guess
 
I see! I asked because I always miss having a search bar on github's websites... which I believe are jekyll powered?
will look at doxygen
 
6:33 PM
probably not the best choice. TeX works better as an intermediate/output format, not as a source.
 
@ssube or you just add google search on your website
@Luggage depends
 
TeX reminds me of a comic character everytim
 
I don't know how doxygen does it, but if you take each tag (assuming a blog format) and generate a list of articles containing that tag
 
I wouldnt' choose TeX as my single-source for making docs.
 
you can deliver all tags+articles to the client and let them "search"
 
6:33 PM
@ssube that's not search
@Luggage it's actually pretty decent
 
@ssube How does github handle pages?
 
@StevensHaen jekyll
 
although for classic docs something like org-mode/rst would be better
 
@FlorianMargaine it's tag search
using sets, intersection, etc
 
Yea, I thought TeX has too much layout-specific code in it.
 
6:34 PM
@Luggage tons of professional documenteers do
 
yeah, which isn't word search
 
although they are largely academics
 
@Luggage uh? no
 
ok.
 
that's the point of TeX... not having to wonder about layout stuff
 
user1596138
6:35 PM
@Loktar I applied for an apartment at The Vue this morning
 
@Luggage hold on
 
it's far from wysiwym like markdown
holding
 
i'm no TeX expert, so I'm prepared to be wrong
that's latex
 
that's my resume up there ^
 
6:36 PM
@Jhawins hah nice
 
those are really close to where I live actually
 
you meant specifically tex and not latex?
 
I thought that's waht we were talking about
 
nobody talks about tex :/
 
6:37 PM
:)
 
like, never
 
nobody has used TeX in like 35 years
but any paper that puts you to sleep with the synopsis alone and is written by 3-6 professors is formatted with latex, guaranteed
 
the important part is "puts you to sleep with the synopsis"
 
@ssube but it definitely looks beautiful
 
pandoc is awesome
 
6:41 PM
speaking of sleep, I want to go home and nap
 
I use it for markdown -> LaTeX -> pdf
 
@Luggage can't agree more with that
@Luggage I prefer rst over markdown
richer
 
yea, it's just that markdown is everywhere. lowest common denominator
but it's far from perfect
i'll look at rst
 
rst is not that harder than md
restructured text, if you want to be able to google
 
Never said it was, just that markdown was already familiar.
 
6:43 PM
it supports stuff like cross ref
 
ohh, yea.
github renders that, right?
 
crl
yql looks funny to use
 
yoooooooooooooooo
 
ooooooooooooooooy
 
6:45 PM
gitlab has markdown with cross-references and stuff, works pretty well
 
I've received a Micro Plan from GitHub.. But don't really know the benefits, is it just the private repos?
 
looks simple enough.
I'm still most familiar with confluence syntax since I've been using that for many years at my old job.
 
confluence's editor is perhaps the worst I've used. It freaks out and breaks whenever you paste into it.
 
though, now confluence is wysiwyg html editor, which has all the problems of wysiwyg editors
 
6:48 PM
like, once you've pasted text into a formatted block, it can't decide if it should keep formatting forever or unformat everything
it's really hard to get code in without a code box
 
yea, I prefer the old one that let you edit the raw markup.
I even got some of our non-it people using the markup instead of wysywig, but now there i no option..
 
yeah. I'm trying to push people to gitlab for wikis now, but it's not too practical for the non-tech people.
 
@Luggage What are the problems with wysiwyg editors, specifically?
 
They end up inserting containers or other markup behind the scenes that you didn't intent
sometimes the only way to fix it to copy out the text, clear and past in a clean copy
 
They are also not usually WYSIWYG, seeing as the editor will generally not have the same styles applied as the site that they go into
 
6:50 PM
I've never encountered on that was perfect.
well, still, when you lose control of the real markup, you can't easily fix thie things the editors do.
some work well, until you paste form the outside world.
 
especially from a word doc... kill me
 
I ask because my current project is essentially a WYSIWYG editor (a fair bit like confluence). But it's intended for non-technical people so some of those problems are unavoidable.
 
exactly.
yea they are, unfortunately, needed for those people.
 
Strip out all tags that aren't actually supposed to be there
 
But yeah, we're working hard to keep the WYS and the WYG as visually identical as possible.
 
6:52 PM
and strip out inline styles. Word likes to carry those over
 
yea, i'm using summernote right now for some formatted text input. it's ok as long as you don't paste.
just 'ok'
 
how do I design a good module interface (same as API ?)?
 
Rephrase the question, please. It's a bit vague.
 
how do i make program
 
how do i computer
 
6:57 PM
how do i
 
@StevensHaen You have to use your fingers
 
@StevensHaen yes
 
That didn't help.
 
@StevensHaen First declare your global variable like this: var MYAPI = {}
 
madameme
 
6:58 PM
@Catgocat you're kidding right?
 
@StevensHaen the interface is the API
 
How do I design a _predictable _ interface for devs to easily use and that doesn't have to be checked on often?
 
But I think I know what you are asking. You want each module to only expose the functions that you want other modules to use and hide the 'how' as much as possible. Give me an example of what you want a module to do.
 
@StevensHaen Make sure you keep all your variables in the global scope so everybody is happy
 
class pls extends Object
 
6:58 PM
@StevensHaen use predictable names.
 
@ssube did you have tried postgresql with postgis ? An awesome geo db !
 
well, js has lots of api styles, unfortunately, you just have to pick on you like and be consistent in you OWN api.
 
verbNoun is good, split classes cleanly and by area of responsibility, name them correctly.
 
thereis no universal standard
 
universal soldier
 
6:59 PM
Logger.writeLog or Model.saveRow are good naming conventions to go with
 
@Luggage encapsulation I'm familiar with. I keep reading the interface is the contract and routines that should be implemented by devs to build with my apps, but I don't have a crips clear picture of what it is. I've read through many API docs, but still.
 
@KarelG no, don't have any use for geographic data, at least today
 

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