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1:00 PM
nevermind
I was thinking of ember
either way, no, I don;t think anyone here uses meteor
 
Yeah.. that's what I've seen. I've also seen many questions regarding meteor from @corvid and have yet to see anyone respond to them. I was guessing we, as a room, don't have much interest in meteor eh?
@NickDugger People bashed meteor quite a bit. Mixing client/server is bad and all that.
 
I used it once for a small webapp last year, never again
 
does it really actually mix server and client? It appears that it just abstracts the division between them more than anything
 
I just don't like monolithic frameworks
 
I like when they are more monolithic, because then it gives more power to add-ons. It's arguable whether that's good or not, I suppose.
 
1:04 PM
@BenFortune No, I hadn't. Thanks
 
If you've got if (meteor.isClient) (or something) everywhere, it's mixing.
 
@dystroy I don't think any of those work with IE though
 
@RoelvanUden you can just make a client/ and server/ directory
 
@BenFortune I don't really care. Even my pro customers agreed to use only Chrome and Firefox. There's been a few years all my applications use SVG and Canvas so it was almost easy
 
Isn't the point of meteor re-usable code though? Wouldn't splitting it into directories make it DRY?
 
1:07 PM
@corvid What complexity does meteor solves for me?
Why should I use it rather than classic node/javascript/nwjs?
 
@dystroy Lucky you. :) The delivery portal we use at work only supports IE 6 and 7.
They won't even give us access to their API
 
:O
 
@SecondRikudo I think it's a preference thing more than anything... I kind of find it annoying to worry about front end and back end as being completely disparate things
 
@corvid But... they are..
 
I find it extremely irritating to mash them together, which is why I'm not a fan of angular
Angular pretends to do things that front end shouldn't do, creating a giant mess of wat's and no's
 
1:10 PM
Yeah, when we started on an Angular project it looked cool and all that, but after a year of using it we collectively decided to drop it
 
I like Angular, though React is pulling me in
 
Hey everyone
 
@JohnBlythe Welcome to the JavaScript chat! Please review the room pseudo-rules. Please don't ask if you can ask or if anyone's around; just ask your question, and if anyone's free and interested they'll help.
 
I haven't found anything better than angular tbh.
React is just a big bunch of meh for me.
I'm actually looking forward to Angular 2
 
I find it disturbing when people compare React and Angular because they are different things :p
 
1:11 PM
IMO React is only good for big projects
 
alrighty @CapricaSix
 
@ivarni By that logic you can only compare things to themselves?
 
@SecondRikudo well, kind of what I mean is like if you have some sort of accounts wrapper. It seems to make more sense to be able to create an extension giving some sort of HTML template, client request, server request, etc. Just puts more ability to create a "more full" product imo
 
Case in point, you can use React to render your angular views, if you really want to crank up the buzzwords
@Retsam Not what I said. React is a view engine, Angular is a full framework
React only tries to solve a subset of what Angular tries to solve
 
@corvid I disagree. Client and server are on different layers. Neither one should be aware of the implementation details of the other.
 
1:13 PM
Anyways, personally I use a lot of KO and really like it; though if I were starting over I might use React instead.
 
Is there a reason why React Native is iOS only? Too lazy to make it work for android too, or was it simply a numbers game?
 
The server is not interested in what the client does behind the scenes, all it cares is that it gets the POST to /login with the user and pass.
And the client is not interested in how the server does authentication all it cares is that the server replies with the proper HTTP status code and a representation of "success" or "fail".
Why would the two share code?
 
@NickDugger I imagine it'll support Android eventually.
 
@SecondRikudo The only usecase I've found useful for sharing between server and client is validation rules
 
The only case where I think it makes sense for client and server to share code is validation... and that's a pretty small reason for an entire framework.
 
1:15 PM
Hivemind
 
@SecondRikudo I don't think they really "share" the code in meteor. You could do meteor package --directory node/ to see what it looks like as Node code.
 
@corvid You still haven't explained to me what meteor does :P
@ivarni Even that can be argued against.
 
@SecondRikudo Indeed, especially if there are validation that can only be done serverside
 
Some validation can only be done server-side, and not client side.
 
What's with all the hive-mind today? :)
 
1:16 PM
For example, to check if the display name you're trying to validate is already in use.
 
eh, it's just a preference thing. It's no better than a lot of alternatives
 
@ivarni I don't see what you mean, comrade.
 
@SecondRikudo yeah, but you can make the server do the validation in meteor... Meteor doesn't make the client/server one in the same, it just provides a framework so working with each is less "divided", really.
 
!!urban hivemind
 
@BenFortune hivemind Hivemind is when two or more people come to the same thought at the same time because of the same circumstances but do not know each other beforehand (i.e. it cannot be an inside joke). This usually happens on internet message boards, and is especially noticeable when the thought reached is not a meme. The name is reflective of insects who act in unison with their hive (or nest) mates.
 
1:19 PM
@corvid Again, the direction I'm going with this is, every framework/library I use abstracts away some sort of pain.
 
@SecondRikudo that's a matter of opinion, though, which brings me back to "it is preference"
 
jQuery abstracts away DOM differences, underscore/lodash/whatever that new one is abstracts away the pains of working with collections in a functional way
Knockout gives you two-way-binding, which is a high level abstraction over DOM
Angular abstracts away a lot of things, and lets you stay in a relatively consistent writing style and tools
What does meteor do for me? What are its strong sides?
 
Hey, it worked out for the dinosaurs.
 
@Retsam But they died. :(
 
Let's say you're writing an OAuth2 wrapper. You need the client and server involved in that. I can write a single code base, package that together and distribute it, so people can get a lot more out of the box. That, I think, is real benefit of meteor.
 
1:23 PM
Ehh, they had it coming.
 
That makes Meteor sound more like an app than a framework.
 
Plus, there's nothing stopping you from packaging your front-end and back-end code together in a single codebase without using Meteor, is there?
 
you probably could, but it's harder. The point of a framework is to streamline these processes.
 
How is it harder? Isn't it literally just a question of putting both sets of code into a single codebase?
 
as in, a package that works regardless of their front end framework choices on adding the dependency?
otherwise, you're configuring something for the back end and something for the front end which is inherently harder to debug imo
 
1:35 PM
"something that works regardless of their front end framework choices".. so other people can use Meteor packages without using Meteor?
 
I'm not sure I didn't miss OP's intent here, his question is weird
1
Q: Why is `Object.length === 1` in JavaScript as part of browsers?

Daniel A. WhiteI'm troubleshooting something in Angular that ends up checking Object.length. The result is 1. The string representation of it does not show any arguments. I get that the first argument is used. var obj = new Object({ a : 27 }); Object's constructor function lists the argument as optional. ...

 
Yay, internal IT removed firefox from my computer
 
@dystroy I think he's confused because if you do Object.toString() you get "function Object() { [native code] }"
 
It's mandated by the spec: es5.github.io/#x15.2.3Zirak 14 secs ago
 
When he's expecting to see something like "function Object(foo) { [native code] }"
Oh weird, I think the guy asking that question is a coworker of mine.
 
1:40 PM
@Zirak Do you write another answer or do I complete mine ?
 
I don't mind, add to yours
 
Now... Why does the spec bother to specify this length ? I don't find similar indications for other constructors
 
It does so for a lot of other functions, like in apply or Array or fromCharCode etc
 
but... Array.length is wrong
 
!!>Array.length
 
1:48 PM
@Retsam That didn't make much sense. Use the !!/help command to learn more.
@Retsam 1
 
Looks right to me
 
yet... new Array(1, 2, 3) is valid
 
@FlorianMargaine It seems to follow the same approach. What's the problem ?
@FlorianMargaine See this relevant answer :
5
A: Why is `Object.length === 1` in JavaScript as part of browsers?

dystroyThe length of a function is the number of declared arguments, excluding any rest parameter. From the MDN: length is a property of a function object, and indicates how many arguments the function expects, i.e. the number of formal parameters. This number does not include the rest paramete...

> This number does not include the rest parameter.
 
is the signature of Array somewhere in the spec? how do we know what's a rest parameter?
 
It's not, I don't think, that's why they have to explicitly define the length.
 
1:51 PM
Array's signature is just above the linked portion.
It makes sense in some way because it communicates the least common denominator invocation; you normally want to give at least 1 argument.
However, it's arguable how sensible func.length is at all in a language like js
 
Function.length is pretty arbitrary.
What is it even useful for, honestly?
 
it's not very explicit in the spec though es5.github.io/#x15.4.1
 
@Retsam I use it in Miaou (and of course there would be a way to avoid using it, but more verbose)
 
(what's not explicit: what's a rest parameter, what's not)
@Zirak yeah, I agree
 
rest parameters weren't explicit in ES until now
 
1:54 PM
@FlorianMargaine It is, the arguments in square brackets
 
@Zirak furry muff
 
@Zirak did you see my drinking bird?
 
Quite
 
@Zirak give up on [ansi-]term, btw
 
I suppose Function.length is useful for stuff like checking whether you do it(function() {}) or it(function(done) {}) in unit tests.
 
1:55 PM
@rlemon wink wink, nudge nudge Yeah, even responded
 
okay, I sowwy. disregard
 
@FlorianMargaine Elaborate?
 
emacs took 100% of my cpu quite often... i used it extensively, and emacs doesn't really like long terminal sessions...
using eshell right now, it's fine
I had to give up on emacs this week because I had work using 4 constantly open virtualbox VMs... with emacs my PC kept crashing
I found out the cause by accident...
 
it's all Lisp's fault of course
 
elisp*
but no, I think this part is handled in C
 
1:57 PM
@FlorianMargaine Weird, I've never observed that.
@FlorianMargaine Using eshell was fine but...meh. It's not the same as zsh/fish.
 
I find it nice
especially the stuff like find-file
or grep using emacs' grep
 
@FlorianMargaine ansi-term caused your pc to crash? eh?
 
@Zirak I ended up with emacs taking 200% of my CPU
 
just had a look at the function.length use in miaou and thought I can and should avoid it...
 
along with these VMs, my PC didn't support it
 
2:01 PM
have an emacs VM with a very small time share
 
Yikes
 
docker + x forwarding?
make emacs even slower than it already was
 
I want to try it
 
2:20 PM
@FlorianMargaine can you give me a small gist on the difference between Vagrant and Docker?
 
@GNi33 vagrant is to manage virtualbox machines, i.e. full virtualization. Docker is to manage linux containers, i.e. very lightweight "VMs"
a docker "vm" is as heavy as running a process
 
oh, okay
 
(i.e. cheap)
 
so are there specific use cases when I would use which?
or probably combine them?
 
you can combine them
for example, I run docker VMs for my dev environments, since I just need an apache + php process
I run vagrant when I need full-blown, not-specific-to-my-host-kernel stuff
 
2:24 PM
Use vagrant for any and every PHP project from now on. Other devs will thank you.
 
docker VMs use the host kernel, so you have to be careful about tha.t
 
@FlorianMargaine so basically what I use Vagrant for
well, I run a complete LAMP - stack on it, I need a database
 
yup, I have another docker vm running the db, and I combine them
anyway it's pretty cool overall, fedora 22 will have each app running in a docker container
 
so, another docker vm would appear as external server to another one or how does this work?
 
yup, external server
 
2:26 PM
okay, that sounds interesting
 
at work (we're a hosting company among other stuff), we use containers very extensively... it's much cheaper to run containers than VMs
 
so, what would the "limits" of such a container be?
 
you can't run a docker container on windows
 
is it essentially designed to just do one thing? like hosting the PHP process, another one running a database and so on
 
exactly
 
2:28 PM
well okay, I personally wouldn't care about it not running on windows, but that is a big plus for Vagrant
 
it's different
 
okay, I'll have to fiddle around with it
 
@GNi33 It can't contain itself
 
there's also dockerhub, something similar to vagrant cloud, if you want to play with some ready-made containers
 
so I could set up a Vagrant Box just to make sure it will be the same dev environment for anyone
 
2:28 PM
@Neil neither can vagrant virtualbox
 
and in there, I could use Docker containers out of what reason soever
right?
 
@GNi33 that's also possible
 
never understood vagrant
why not just puppet?
 
@ssube I use both
 
dude, there are too many tools
 
2:29 PM
vagrant works with VBoxManage
puppet works in the VM
I provision my VMs with puppet, for example
 
@FlorianMargaine huh?
 
but to create them, configure the network, etc, vagrant takes care of it
 
oh, I think I get it
 
@GNi33 puppet is an installation tool.. you could replace it with bash scripts
 
ah, alright.
 
2:31 PM
hm. I just spin up a VM, install the OS, then let puppet set up all the network stuff.
that does leave the actual provisioning to be done by hand
 
but I can use Vagrant to take care of this, can't I?
@FlorianMargaine what does Miaou use as of now?
 
@ssube vagrant takes care of spinning up the VM + installing the OS + the network stuff in a relatively simple Vagrantfile
 
I know it uses (or used?) Vagrant at some point
 
the actual provisioning is done by puppet usually, it's done for this
@GNi33 yup
although the puppet script is broken atm
 
anything additional?
 
2:33 PM
?
 
anything additional to Vagrant
 
nah you just need vagrant and virtualbox
 
or vmware workstation
 
the rest is done by the provisioning
 
ok
 
2:34 PM
but the provisioning is broken atm ^^
 
I find vmware to be way more resource efficient
 
yeah, I was thinking that maybe it would use puppet or docker too, so I could have a look at how this works
 
@GNi33 woa
 
wait, so it does use puppet?
 
both have completely different purposes :D
 
2:34 PM
@FlorianMargaine wait.. what does this mean?
 
@Loktar I'm not sure... but the react license seems weird
 
@FlorianMargaine I (kinda) know, I'm still a little confused about how and exactly what for I would use those tools
 
@GNi33 yes, but it's installed by a apt-get install puppet in the vm
puppet is just to replace a bash script that would install everything
 
ah, alright, that makes sense
 
puppet can't create a new vm, for obvious reasons
 
2:35 PM
because bash scripts are awful to maintain
 
that's basically the reason for using puppet?
 
it's also just slightly more modular
easier to maintain
 
ok, cool. Are there any files in the miaou repo that make use of puppet that I could have a look at?
 
can build machines from mixins
 
this answer on quora is everything wrong with everything: quora.com/…
 
sweet
thanks, Florian!
 
Hi all
I'm wondering if I could get some help with what is probably something very basic
 
@SimonSarris it seems pretty well written, and it makes sense
 
@SimonSarris how else would you even come close to fullfilling the requirements for most of those job ads that are around if you don't even know all of those languages
 
2:39 PM
@FlorianMargaine see people named Simon get it
 
I'm playing around with Angular. I'm getting an object from a MySQL DB via PHP, returning as JSON to my controller. I need to process this further for output to the view
 
> because you can't be a well-rounded developer without knowing basic Web development

Sure you can.
 
So I need to copy most of the values out of the returned JSON and make a new object
 
> Trust me. I'm a professional.
 
> A strong software engineer should have a basic level of comfort -- that is, be able to understand code and write something nontrivial
I agree with him
 
2:40 PM
But I'm getting a 'can't set property 'event_id of undefined' error
 
> understanding how compilers, memory management, and the stack work.
You don't need to know any of that to be an excellent programmer
 
my controller is here: pastebin.com/0VhK93Fe
 
he's not talking about average joe...
 
@SimonSarris I don't see it
Sure it's not the best, but it's not terribly and irrevocably wrong
 
It's the kind of thing that scares novice programmers away, by creating this expectation that good programmers are good at everything
or should be good at everything
and I don't see how that's helpful or even remotely true
 
2:42 PM
all the better-than-average programmers I've met or worked with do know about what he said though... more or less, of course, but that's his point about depth
 
okay, then maybe I read the question wrong. Is it an answer to "what must a 9-5 programmer person know to make a living + have a hobby", or an answer to "which topics should a programmer person delve into to have good, well-rounded knowledge"?
 
@SimonSarris I agree, though sometimes I wish I knew more comp-sci
 
the second question is a better question than the one asked
the right answer IMO is that the question being asked is inane
Strong software engineers aren't characterized by the number of languages they know
 
^
 
they are characterized by writing good, maintainable code
clear documentation, clear expectations, communication
 
2:45 PM
No, but I never met a great programmer knowing only one language... ymmv...
 
languages are secondary in software development
 
Having said that, learning different languages and abstractions broadens the mind and helps you become the better developer.
 
nay doubt, but I don't think its the kind of knowledge someone should strive for
they should strive to write code that cannot possibly be misunderstood, in whatever language
 
You shouldn't strive to become a better developer?
 
Stop being devil's advocate, and just give hugs
 
2:46 PM
I know that can't possibly be what you mean, but reading Zirak's statement and then yours gave that impression.
 
I think "you should be familiar with all these languages" is the worst message you could send to a newcomer or an intermediate programmer
 
You can look at a piece of code and know it's written by someone who only knows Java. He could be the single greatest Java developer ever, but not knowing other platforms is a huge stone in his step.
 
its like telling a novice chef that he should spend his time worrying about trying every brand of knife
 
I don't think that article is exactly written for the novice programmer.
 
@SimonSarris That claim is terribad, yes.
 
2:47 PM
instead of, you know, reading about cooking
and I know the guy is just blindly answering the quora question asked
 
Yeah, look at zirak's hello world on gist, he's clearly a java developer
 
but think about who's reading that Quora post, think about who's asking it
they have this wrong idea in their heads already
> What programming languages should a modern-day programmer have in his/her arsenal?
And the answerer does nothing to correct that insane interpretation of modern-day programming
 
I don't see a problem with that question.
 
is it just me or is Github slow as hell right now?
 
github is under attack
 
2:49 PM
yeah, github is under a distributed denial of source since this morning
 
(has been for several hours now)
 
seriously?
what is wrong with people
 
(please note the joke)
 
The modern day programmer beast has awoken
 
2:50 PM
@Retsam The problem is that its like someone asking "what kind of knives should I buy to be a good cook?" Even if you answer talking about EXCELLENT KNIVES, its a canard, you haven't helped the person get closer to being a good cook.
 
@FlorianMargaine ...that was intentional? I hoped it was autocorrect or something.
 
so you do the person a disservice by accepting their question at face value
@FlorianMargaine clever!
 
@Zirak how can "service" be autocorrected to "source"
 
Through some weird misspelling?
 
in other news, it looks like someone wants to use my packages github.com/Ralt/foreach-shim/issues
@Zirak in other news, I've started using gnus since this morning... I like it
 
2:52 PM
@FlorianMargaine Huzzah!
 
okay, I'll manage that github stuff later then
 
@FlorianMargaine Remembers me that : github.com/Canop/JSON.prune/issues/1
I don't know if it sounds "legal" but user was happy ^^
 
public domain isn't a license tho
 
Nothin starts off a good friday like another metro fire
 
He could just copy/paste that 7 lines of code and move on
 
2:54 PM
@FlorianMargaine yeah, but it should be good enough for anybody wanting to copy paste it into his own code
 
@dystroy well, my "MIT License" isn't enough apparently :-)
 
what a scrub
 
@FlorianMargaine You should be more precise, like miaou (github.com/Canop/miaou#license)
 
2:56 PM
@rlemon I... what... no!! T_T
 
@SimonSarris I think you're making a lot of strange assumptions about who specifically is reading this answer and who its talking to. I think an answer about what knives to buy is a prefectly reasonable thing for a would-be chef to know
 
@FlorianMargaine His lawyers look desperate for something to do
 
It's obviously not the only condition to being a good chef, and its not the first thing that they need be concerned with, but it is useful information, and probably necessary information for them eventually.
 
Ohh Simon is here?
 
2:58 PM
@FlorianMargaine is this guy serious?
I think it's great that he wants to make sure everything's correct regards licensing
but that's actually 4 lines of code
 
Don't change the license, because my lawyers tell me that I can't use it if you be more precise
 
Apparently eating a phonebook was his dream reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/30eo52/…
 

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